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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 iamfick

    hi dublin

    good stuff.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Let us continue our story about bronze age fort builders from central Europe. What happened to them after "Troy" was sacked? Well they continued to make hill forts:

    "Trojan" princes could not to down south, because their enemies (Ilyrians, the iron people) were in the Balkans.

    Some of the "Trojan" princes continued to live in Central Europe and continued to build hill forts and ring forts. Like Lusatian culture:
    The Lusatian culture existed in the later Bronze Age and early Iron Age (1300 BCE – 500 BCE) in most of today's Poland, parts of Czech Republic and Slovakia, parts of eastern Germany (where it is known as Lausitz, Latin: Lusatia) and parts of Ukraine. It covers the Periods Montelius III (early Lusatian culture) to V of the Northern-European chronological scheme.
    There were close contacts with the Nordic Bronze Age.[1] Hallstatt and La Tène influences can also be seen particularly in ornaments (fibulae, pins) and weapons... Well known settlements include Biskupin in Poland and Buch near Berlin. There are both open villages and fortified settlements (burgwall or grod) on hilltops or in swampy areas. The ramparts were constructed of wooden boxes filled with soil or stones.

    Lusatian culture is very important for both the Irish and the Serbs as it is closely linked with the development of both of these peoples which we will see when we start looking at ring forts. Lusatian culture is considered to be one of Proto Slavic cultures (western Slavs).

    Some of the "Trojan" princes went to the east. Book of Veles talks about the arrival of the people of the father OR from the western mountains who married the daughter of RUS.

    Here is the text translated into English:

    One of the peoples who built hilforts extensively were skythians.
    On two locations, Herodotus stresses the fact that the Scythians don't have any fortified cities (4.46.3, .127.2), but were nomads. However, he varies this simple statement somewhat in the geographical excursus (4.17-20), in which he distinguishes Plough Scythians, Agricultural Scythians, Nomad Scythians, and Royal Scythians. Those categories show different geographic distribution: The farer we come away from Herodotus' point of departure at Olbia, the more primitive the Scythians become (from an agriculturalist point of view of course) - and the less Hellenised they become, too. If Herodotus were writing only a fictitious novel, as it has been suggested, this variation would have been meaningless. Probably, Herodotus is polemising against Hecataeus, who appears to have collected all North Pontic tribes under one heading.

    In the forest steppe zone between Dnepr and Don, archaeologists have excavated numerous fortifications and settlements, and they seem to have depended largely on crops. As archaeology cannot of course determine ethnicity, which is after all a matter of linguistically framed construction, it is impossible to say if those fortifications were in fact inhabited by Scythians. Some researchers claim that only the grass steppe in the south was the home of Iranian-speaking Scythians, and that another population, perhaps Proto-Slavs, inhabited the northern forest steppe. Others focus on the unity of the culture in both areas. A probable scenario is that mounted nomads of Iranian origin settled amongst an agricultural population in the forest steppe zone, and that the two populations formed a cultural and economic symbiosis, which must be called Scythian.

    So this is another proto Slavic culture (Eastern Slavs). The reason why i mention Scythian is because so many Irish texts talk about Scythian origin of the Irish (some Irish) and because we find a lot of Scythian artifacts in Ireland which seem to prove that the old histories are correct. What many people don't know is that Scythia used to reach all the way to south Baltic.
    Scythian art is art, primarily decorative objects, such as jewelry, produced by the nomadic tribes in the area known classically as Scythia, which was centred on the Pontic-Caspian steppe and ranged from modern Kazakhstan to the Baltic coast of modern Poland, to Georgia and Armenia.
    But the Greeks know to a certainty,

    1. That the Celts were in the west of Europe, above Spain; or in Gaul and Britain.
    2. That in the North West of Europe, or in present Germany and Scandinavia, were the Scythae; and the Celto-Scythae, or those Scythae in Gaul and Britain, who bordered on the Celts, as the Indo-Scythae did on the Indi.
    3. That the Sarmatae were on the North of Greece, to the east of the Scythae of Germany. All which will clearly appear from the following authorities.
    1. Herodotus places the Celts quite to the West, and the pillars of Hercules; whereas in his geogra∣phy of Scythia, Book IV. ch. 99. et seq. he evi∣dently supposes that the Scythians spred all over the North West of Europe, even to the Northern ocean, or Baltic. The Agathyrsi, and Geloni, he ranks among the Scythian nations, who united in the general league against Darius, ch. 101. Now Dionysius and Ptolemy place the Agathyrsi and Geloni upon the Baltic sea. We learn from this that the ancient Greeks knew that the Scythae ex∣tended to the utmost north-west extremity of Eu∣rope, or up to Scandinavia.

    2. Xenophon, who wrote about 380 years be∣fore Christ, says, in his Memorabilia Socratis, lib. II. §. 10. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉; 'In Europe the Scythians bear sway:' shewing that as the Persians were the ruling people in Asia, so were the Scythae in Europe. Had the Scythians of Europe been regarded by Xenophon as confined to Ancient Scythia, he could not have given them this description; but he palpably understood that they extended into the heart and furthest parts of Europe, and bore universal sway in it.

    3. Aristotle, in Meteor. I. 13. says, the Ister, or Danube slowed from the Pyrenees, mountains of Celtica: and De Gen. An. II. 8. he speaks of the cold of Scythia, and adds that the country of the Celts, above Spain, (〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉) is also cold. He, as well as Herodotus, knew that the Celts were confined to Celtic Gaul, and to Britain, for he calls the tin which was brought from Britain, Celtic tin:〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉; 'they say that Celtic tin melts much sooner than lead:' De Mir. Ausc.

    4. In the next century, or about 250 years be∣fore Christ, Pytheas, Xenophon Lampsacenus, and Timaeus, authors quoted by Pliny, Nat. Hist. IV. 13. all say that the ile Baltia, or Glessaria, a peninsula of the Prussian coast, in which amber is found, 'lay opposite to Scythia, distant a day or two's sail.' Pliny quotes them separately, and they vary in some points, but all agree in this; which shews to a certainty that the Greeks knew the Scy∣thians to extend to Scandinavia, and over all the north of Germany, as before mentioned: while the Celts were confined to Celtic Gaul and Britain. My plan confines me, else i could convince every reader, that the Greeks, five centuries before Christ, had far more accurate ideas of the Scythic and Celtic nations than Pelloutier, a writer of yester∣day. But it is the property of an over heated imagi∣nation to raise fumes, and darken every subject, while the lumen siccum, or dry light of judgement, pene∣trates and illustrates all. Fancy blends: judgment discriminates. Fancy finds similitudes; judgment dissimilitudes.;view=fulltext

    Some other "Trojan" princes went west and became founders of many future great cities and civilizations as ancient legends tell us.

    Like this one about the foundation of Rome:

    The founding of Rome can be investigated through archaeology, but traditional stories handed down by the ancient Romans themselves explain the earliest history of their city in terms of legend and myth. The most familiar of these myths, and perhaps the most famous of all Roman myths, is the story of Romulus and Remus, the twins who were suckled by a she-wolf.[1] This story had to be reconciled with a dual tradition, set earlier in time, that had the Trojan refugee Aeneas escaped to Italy and founded the line of Romans through his son Iulus, the namesake of the Julio-Claudian dynasty.[2]

    Or this one about the foundation of the British kingdom:
    Brutus, or Brute of Troy, is a legendary descendant of the Trojan hero Aeneas, known in medieval British legend as the eponymous founder and first king of Britain. This legend first appears in the Historia Britonum, a 9th-century historical compilation attributed to Nennius, but is best known from the account given by the 12th century chronicler Geoffrey of Monmouth in his Historia Regum Britanniae. However, he is not mentioned in any classical text and is not considered to be historical.

    I am not going to go into details about these legends and I don't claim that any of them is true.

    But someone has reached England and Ireland and started to build Bronze Age Hill forts after the sacking of panonian "Troy". The "Troy" is abandoned by 1400 bc. First English and Irish hill forts appear after 1400 bc. They appear in Ireland during period 1200 - 800 bc. In England the earliest hill forts appear between 1400 - 1100 bc (probably closer to 1100) but majority of English hill forts falls in the period 800 - 600 bc.

    What is interesting about these bronze age hill forts in British Isles is their distribution. Here is the map of hill fort distribution in Ireland and England related to the bronze weapons deposits:


    Here is the map showing detailed distribution of Irish hill forts.


    Please note the area that connects the land of the Laigin and the Shannon. It runs along the northern border of Iverni and through the kingdom of Ossory.
    The area around Ossory were said to have been anciently occupied, according to some interpretations of Ptolemy's 2nd century map, by tribes referred to as the Brigantes, the Cauci and the Usdiae.
    Scholars believe that the Laigin pedigree of the Osraige is a fabrication, invented to help them achieve their goals in Leinster. Francis John Byrne suggests that it may date from the time of Cearbhaill mac Dúnlainge.[6]

    I believe that from the distribution of the hill forts we can pretty much be certain that the Ossory was originally the border area separating the land of Iverni (Iberians) from the rest of Ireland ruled by the Central Europeans.

    If we look at the areas where we find hill forts in Ireland and England we see that they are located in the exactly the same areas where we later find iron age Baltic (Celtic, Germanic, Danish, Slavic) settlers. It seems that we have the same areas being settled in Britain by the same Central European people via south Baltic from bronze age until the end of Viking age.

    How do we know that these are central European people and not Atlantean people? We know because of this find:
    Examination of the bronze bowl has indicated that it is an example of the central European Fuchsstadt type that is found from Norway to Romania and is dated to 1100-900 BC. The decorated drinking cup is a Jenisovice type which is found in central Europe from Denmark to Romania and is dated to 1000-900 BC. Together the bowl and cup probably formed part of a set of vessels used for drinking wine. The objects belonged to a high status man who may have been associated with Haughey’s fort nearby. The bronzes illustrate the very long distances from which high status objects were acquired in the Late Bronze Age and indicate that Ireland was part of a European-wide network of trade relations.

    The bowls are only found in central Europe and in north east Ireland so far.

    Here is the distribution map of these vessels:


    You can clearly see that the only way these vessels could have reached Ireland was via south Baltic.

    Interestingly enough, the chronological path of distribution of bronze age artifacts in England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland seems to suggest the same cultural pathway that we find later in the iron age: from south Baltic to south east England and north east Ireland. Then from east Ireland to west Wales and Scotland.

    There are two obscure stories, one in Ireland and Scotland of Irish origin and one in Serbia that could also help us determine who built the hill forts.

    In Serbia there is a story recorded in a mid 19th century dictionary about king Gavan or Gaban. King Gavan was a mighty king who ruled somewhere above Danube. He had a great city and was very powerfull. But he was also a very greedy and mean. One day angels fell from the sky and destroyed the King Gavan's castle and it sank into the lake Balaton. Lake Balaton is the remnant of the old Panonian Lake (sea) so maybe this story tells us about the city that sunk under the Pannonian sea when it rose during one of the major weather events i spoke about in one of my previous posts. King Gavan was punished to be eternally bitten by snakes. There used to be a fresko in the old Tronosha (tripod) monastery in Serbia depicting an old man naked covered in snakes which were biting his nipples. A local legend says that it is king Gaban. Interestingly word gabh means to take, to capture, to seize, so king Gabhan would be the mean greedy king who only takes and never gives. One of old towns in Neretva valey is called Gabela which means customs house. Gabella in Catalan, Italian, French means tax, taking given to a prince.

    It is funny that here they claim that the word comes from Arabic:
    Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) is the Middle Irish title of a loose collection of poems and prose narratives recounting the mythical origins and history of the Irish from the creation of the world down to the Middle Ages. An important record of the folkloric history of Ireland, it was compiled and edited by an anonymous scholar in the 11th century, and might be described as a mélange of mythology, legend, history, folklore and Christian historiography. It is usually known in English as The Book of Invasions or The Book of Conquests, and in Modern Irish as Leabhar Gabhála Éireann or Leabhar Gabhála na hÉireann.

    The second story is the Irish story of Gobán Saor:
    The Gobán Saor was a highly-skilled smith or architect in Irish history and legend. Gobban Saer (Gobban the Builder) is a figure regarded in Irish traditional lore as an architect of the seventh century, and popularly canonized as St. Gobban. The Catholic Encyclopedia considers him historical and born at Turvey, near Malahide, about 560.
    In literary references, he was employed by many Irish saints to build churches, oratories, and bell towers, and he is alluded to in an eighth-century Irish poem, preserved in a monastery in Carinthia. In the "Life of St. Abban" it is said that "the fame of Gobban as a builder in wood as well as stone would exist in Ireland to the end of time."
    In Gobán Saor can be seen elements of Goibniu, the Old Irish god of smithcraft.[1] His name can be compared with the Old Irish gobae ~ gobann ‘smith,’ Middle Welsh gof ~ gofein ‘smith,’ Gallic gobedbi ‘with the smiths,’ Latin faber ‘smith’ and with the Lithuanian gabija ‘sacred home fire’ and Lithuanian gabus ‘gifted, clever’.[2]
    The Wonder Smith and His Son is a retelling of fourteen tales about the Gobán Saor, by Ella Young; illustrated by Boris Artzybasheff (1927). It was a 1928 Newbery Honor Book. Two of Ella Young's retellings were reprinted by Collier in "The Young Folks Shelf of Books."

    In Irish Gob means beak. But it could also mean a big pointy nose. Big nose is a characteristic of Dinaric (I2a) people of central Europe.


    Is Goban a descriptive name used by the Atlantean Gaels to describe Dinaric metal workers with big noses? Are Gobans the big nose people from Central Europe. How old is this story then? Vinca time? Beginning of copper age?

    Or is this Goban the same as the Goban, Gaban from Serbia, the taker, the conqueror, the invader (with a big nose for good measure)?

    One of the stories about Goban the great says:
    In the biography of Moling, the Goban's wife is called Ruaidhseach. and she is there portrayed as a shrewd and calculating woman. The best known of all the legends concerning him can be seen to be a further development on this theme. This, told in folklore throughout Ireland and Gaelic Scotland, relates how the Goban and his son were once engaged on building a great castle for a king in foreign parts. They worked for seven years on the castle, and when it was nearing com pletion the wily king planned to put them to death, lest they might build an equally fine residence for somebody else. The Goban. suspecting the king’s intentions, said that he could not build the final turret without a tool which he had inadvertently left behind him at home. This tool, he said, was called crooked and straight’. The king, unwilling to allow the Goban or his son to depart, sent his own son to Ireland for it, but the name of the sup posed tool was in fact a coded message and when the Goban’s wife heard it she knew that her men folk were in danger. She told the foreign prince that it was in a deep trunk and, when he bent into the trunk to fetch it, she caught his two legs and threw him in. She locked the prince in the trunk, and then sent a message to the foreign king that, if he wished to see his son again, he had better allow her husband and son home. The king had no choice but to comply. The central motif of this legend the outwitting of the selfish magnate by a builder who seeks an imaginary tool was told in connection with various great buildings in western Europe.

    Ruaidhseach is probably Ruaidh seach.
    Ruaidh means red, orange.
    Oileán Ruaidh (Irish: red island), anglicised as Island Roy, also called Oileán an Bhráighe (Irish: island of the captive),[1] is a small island in Mulroy Bay, County Donegal,

    Seach is probably blade, Knife. like in Gráinseach which means grange.

    grange - Middle English (in the sense 'granary, barn'): from Old French, from medieval Latin granica (villa) 'grain house or farm', based on Latin granum 'grain'

    so grainseach is place where we keep cut wheat....

    So Ruaidhseach is copper or bronze blade.

    This would make Goban's wife actually his main attribute, metal blade. It is his wife which constantly gets him out of trouble. When Goban asks for tool which is "crooked and straight" but which does not exits in Ireland he is asking for this:
    The sica was a short sword or large dagger of ancient Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians, used in Ancient Rome too, originating in the Halstatt culture. It was originally depicted as a curved sword, (see the Zliten mosaic as well as numerous oil lamps) with a blade about 16-18 inches long (40 – 45 cm) and many examples have been found in what are today Albania, Romania, Bosnia, Bulgaria and Serbia, as well as depicted on the Trajan's Column.

    I have no idea where they have found Halstatt reference to Sica. If anyone has it please post it here. Sica is an Ilyrian weapon and its name comes from the root sek, which i already talked about. It is crooked and straight and maybe points to where the Gabans (big nose people with red orange blades) came from.

    In another story about Goban Saor we read this:
    We are told that, when his wife was due to give birth, the Goban was away on business, and she was accompanied by another pregnant woman. The Goban's wife gave birth to a baby girl, while the other woman had a boy. Knowing that the Goban desired a son very much, they exchanged the babies. Time passed, and as the boy grew up the Goban noticed, to his disap pointment, that his ’son’ had inherited little of his own skill and intelligence.

    This is clear indication that Goban is not of the same stock as the others in the community. Is this also the sign he was foreign?

    While we are speaking about root words sek and klan I have found few more Irish words that show the use of Serbian root klaon, klan (make a deep cut, slaughter):

    claíomh - sword (what you use to perform "clanje" slaughter with)
    claimhte - swords
    muirchlaimhte - cutlasses
    clasaigh - channel, trench, gash, groove (something deep which is cut)
    clasan - small channel, gully
    clais - water channel
    clai - dike
    cladh - ditch but in scots gaelic graveyard, churchyard, cemetery, burial ground.

    Also interesting is word cladan, which means a line of heapped stones.

    In old welsh Cladiff means semetary

    First a question: How come we have Cladh and Cladifh, both starting with C both meaning ditch, graveyard, one in "p celtic" and another in "q celtic"???

    Second, next to Djerdap and Iron gate there is a town called Kladovo. Ranka Kuic, professor of Celtic studies from Belgrade university and member of Welsh academy postulaed that the name of the town was derived from Celtic word "kladiff" meaning "cemetery" in English. Early Bronze Age pottery of the Kostolac-Kocofeni culture was found in Donje Butorke, Kladovo,[3] as well as several miniature duck-shaped vases of 14th century BC in Mala Vrbica and Korbovo.[4] Bronze Age necropolis with rituals, pottery (decorated with meander) and other significant archaeological items were found in Korbovo.[5][6]

    Is Korbovo then Corbovo, the pleace where corbs, wheels are made? Old Irish name for wheel is corb.
    The most popular speculation is that it is from "corb," the old Gaelic for wheel, perhaps designating someone who fought in a cart or chariot as male names are often derived from order of battle. (For instance "Gary, Garth, etc., from "gar" for "spear.") However, some etymologies suggest it derives from the old Gaelic for "raven", a bird laden with mystical meaning for the Celts, and often used to mean "legend" or "legendary".[citation needed] Similarly, it might refer specifically to Corb, one of the legendary Fomorians of Irish mythology.

    One other thing that can show us the clear division between north east and south west of Ireland is a distribution map of the so called Irish bar torcs:


    If we look at this map we see that the bar torcs are predominantly found (again) in the north eastern part of Ireland, the same area later settled by Laigin, south east of England (Saxon land) and west Wales (Laigin land). It seems that the gold for these torcs came from Wiclow mountains. Maybe the gold (as well as timber) is the reason why the northerners continually settled and held Wicklow area:

    The area of distribution of gold torcs of the Tara type in Ireland, England and France is very limited, none having been found in Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Belgium, Holland, or Spain and Portugal.[31] It has been suggested that the gold of which all these torcs were composed came from the Wicklow Mountains,[32] and in view of the extreme wealth of Ireland in gold, as evinced by the number of gold ornaments which are still constantly found, this may be considered probable.

    Here is what we can read about the Bar torcs:
    In 1200 BC, the date for several of the torcs in this exhibition, the concept of twisting a bar or a ribbon of gold was first introduced. The two types of torcs predominant in Ireland are the bar torc and the ribbon torc. Nearly one hundred bar torcs have been discovered in Britain, Ireland, and on the continent. In Ireland alone, at least thirty-one bar torcs have been discovered-the most for any one country — primarily in the southern portion of the Leinster province, in Connaught, and along the north-east coast. The process of manufacturing a bar torc involves hammering strips of gold onto a bar of triangular cross-section that may be twisted clockwise. In some instances, the goldsmith twisted a gold wire around the circular bar in order to give the illusion of a more closely twisted torc. Most bar torcs have recurved terminals (the ends of the semi-circular shape that clasp together) that can be made simply or elaborately.

    Here is a bar torc from Central Europe dating to a period 1500 - 1200 bc:

    Here are bronze bar torcs from Wiltshire, the area later settled and named by Wilti, South Baltic west Slavic tribe.
    A Middle Bronze Age copper alloy spiral-twisted torc dating in the Taunton period (1400-1250BC). It measures 211mm widthways, 193mm longways and is max.14.95mm thick. It weighs 537g, to the nearest 1g. Adam Gwilt, curator, National Museum of Wales, comments: 'Looking at Ben Roberts's article (PPS 73, 2007) on Ornaments in Britain 1400-1100BC, his listing and distribution maps show that earlier bronze pre-cursors to gold torcs do tend to cluster across parts of southern and eastern England. The Durnford hoard is included in his catalogue and Wiltshire is within his Zone B with tendencies towards frequent gold and bronze spiral twisted torcs'.

    Here is a detailed distribution map of bronze age ornaments in Britain. Please note how they are all concentrated in the future Saxon, Danelaw area

    This type of torc continued to be used in eastern Ireland, England and Central Europe until medieval time.

    All of this, I believe, points (again) at central Europe, through south Baltic, as being a continuous center of influence in Britain and Ireland.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare

    Hi DublinViking,

    It would appear that the maps quoted show where the Romans landed and spent lots of time due to transport across the channel.

    Many of the ringforts pre-date Troy, so methinks that theory needs some work.

    Some of the Brochs in Scotland are contemporary with the Vinca culture.

    Most of the major sites in Ireland pre-date Troy, some by a long way.

    The idea behind the facial features doesn't hold much water, just look at the images of the Normans, they have long noses where-as the features of Central Europeans have rounder eyes and slopier foreheads.(if you get my meaning)

    Central European features seem almost more Arabic then Nordic or Celtic / Pictish.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    Iberia from Ebro

    Iverni from something different

    How would the word cleaver fit into the shared root for claimh?

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    hi cfuserkildare. thanks for reading
    It would appear that the maps quoted show where the Romans landed and spent lots of time due to transport across the channel.

    I don't think you can attribute any of the features described in the maps to Romans. But you can to Central Europeans.
    Many of the ringforts pre-date Troy, so methinks that theory needs some work.

    I am basing the dating of irish ring forts on data presented in the book "the origins of the Irish" by J.P. Mallory. The earliest dates given for Irish hill forts are 1200 bc. And when i say "Troy" i am putting the word deliberately in the quotes. What i call "Troy" is the ring fort culture that existed in the second millennium bc in central Europe around the Okeanos Potamos. The final eviction date of the Giant ring fort of Iarcuri is 1400 bc. This is when first hill forts start to appear in Britain and Ireland with the same characteristics, multiple rings, with a massive round structure within the inner wall.
    Some of the Brochs in Scotland are contemporary with the Vinca culture.

    Brochs are a typical example of the Atlantean culture stone age architecture and have nothing to do with Central Europe. This is this other Iberian culture which shared British Islands with the Central Europeans. They were built by the old Maritime Atlantean - West Mediteranian people, who were the carriers of the Afro Asiatic linguistic characteristics we find today in Gaelic languages.

    Have a look at this book. Try not to laugh at it :) and try to read it to the end. A lot of stuff is out of date, like attributing copper invention to Berbers...But a lot of things are quite interesting.

    Bob quin talked a lot about this Maritime Atlantean Ireland as well.

    I believe you need to look at all sorts of dirt, because you never know where you are going to find gold. I include my stuff into pile of dirt with some gold in it as well :)

    Most of the major sites in Ireland pre-date Troy, some by a long way.

    Again no problem there. I was talking about bronze age hill forts and ring forts only. In one of the first posts i did explain link between the old Irish and English granges (rondel enclosures) and older versions of the same structures in Central Europe. Some of the bronze age hill forts were built on top of existing fortifications. This is to be expected. There are only so many good places to build a fort on.
    The idea behind the facial features doesn't hold much water, just look at the images of the Normans, they have long noses where-as the features of Central Europeans have rounder eyes and slopier foreheads.(if you get my meaning)
    Central European features seem almost more Arabic then Nordic or Celtic / Pictish.

    When i say central Europe i mean area between Balkan and Baltic. I include south baltic because it was the gateway through which northern central European people traded and traveled. This is the birth place of the old European I haplogroup , but also of the R1a haplogroup. I believe that I haplogroup is linked to mountains and R1a to steppe. It is I haplogroup (dinarics and nordics) which shares the same racial characteristics including big noses. This is why you find the same features in Vikings. It is the I2 and I1 that brought the big noses, tall, narrow head people to Ireland. It is R1a that brought the round head people to Ireland. Today's central Europe is predominantly R1a which is the round head population you are talking about.

    here is a map of mountains in Europe.

    Iberia from Ebro

    Iverni from something different
    The Iverni (Ἰούερνοι, Iouernoi) were a people of early Ireland first mentioned in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in the extreme south-west of the island.[1] He also locates a "city" called Ivernis (Ἰουερνίς, Iouernis) in their territory, and observes that this settlement has the same name as the island as a whole, Ivernia (Ἰουερνία, Iouernia).[2] The name Iverni has been derived from Proto-Indo-European *PiHwerjoHn, "the fertile land". It was probably once the name given to all the peoples of Ireland, but by Ptolemy's time had a more restricted usage applicable to the inhabitants of the south-west.[3] These Iverni can be identified linguistically with the Érainn (Éraind, Érnai, Érna),[4] a people attested in Munster and elsewhere in the early Middle Ages.

    This is just one person's opinion. If you look around, lots of other people connected Iverni and Iberni

    you have this for instance:
    Early Greek and Roman authors called the Irish Ιουερνοι and Iverni, respectively, both derived from the Proto-Irish ethnic name *Iwerni ("people of *Iweriū"). Later Greek and Latin variants of this name included Ίερνοι, Hierni, and Hiberni.[2]

    Where was original Iweriu? People bring the names of places with them. How many Dublins are in US?

    To me it is logical that if Irish legends say that some portion of Irish people came from Iberia, and we have Mil Espain and we have Iverni, that they all point to the same people. Especially if we have such a separation between the Iverni and the rest of the island.

    How about this:

    If you want to find Celts you look at R1b Gaelic speaking Celt Iberians. Here:

    The rest of the "Celts", the guys from Central Europe are actually R1a + I Scythians (Slavs, Old Germans, Nordics) as is becoming more and more obvious based on latest archaeological and genetic research.

    I will write about Scythians a lot very soon.
    How would the word cleaver fit into the shared root for claimh?

    It comes from the same root which only exists in Serbian as i showed before. Here is what Wiktionary has to say about it:
    From Middle English cleven, from the Old English strong verb clēofan, from Proto-Germanic *kleubaną, from Proto-Indo-European *glewbʰ- (“to cut, to slice”). Cognate with Dutch klieven, dialectal German klieben, Swedish klyva, and Greek γλύφω (glyfó, “carve”).

    No mention of Serbian or Irish.

    Root - *glewbʰ- - to split

    Germanic: *kleubaną
    Ancient Greek: γλύφω (glúphō)
    Latin: glubere
    Don Ringe - From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic, Oxford University Press 2006

    Again no Serbian or Irish. But which language sits between Mediteranian and Baltic languages? Central European West Slavic languages of which Serbian is the oldest.

    It basically comes to ethnic and cultural continuity in central Europe. I believe the same people have been living between Baltic and Balkans in last 10000 years. Same genes, same language. All latest archaeological results point to the same genes. I am trying to prove the same language part.

    Wouldn't it be logical that the language that sits in the middle of the word distribution zone, which has the root word and most derivatives, and which sits in the birth zone of the "Indo Europeans" according to one of two accepted main theories be the distributor of the word to its neighbors? Particularly when people who have preserved all these "kl" words in their language still live in the same place where metal blades were first invented?

    If you ignore central European population (Western Slavs) then you need Indo European to link Greek, Latin and Germanic. If you don't ignore central European population (Western Slavs), then no distant unknown "Indo Europeans" are necessary.

    Have a look at this:

    I already talked about huge influence Polabian Slavs (Sorbs) had during creation of the Anglo Saxon alliance and later Danish viking alliance. The language distribution map is incorrect. Based on earlier data, they lived as west as Frisia ans Utrecht, which was one of their towns. You can find all this in the book "Origine of the Anglo Saxon race" which i spoke about as well. Their language sits between Germanic and Slavic and is the missing link to explain all the common words in both sets of languages. It is incredible that we have managed to lose a language that was spoken in Germany until 18th century. Was that done on purpose, and that is why we only have a handful of words and texts saved?

    Here is only one example of the polabian (Sorbian) word which is link between germanic and slavic. This is one line from the gospel The Lord's Prayer:

    English: thy will be done
    German: Dein Wille geschehe,
    Polabian: tia Willia ſchinyôt,
    Serbian: Tvoja volja da bude, (da bude volja tvoja) - in Serbian you can rearange the words in a sentnece without losing the meaning
    Polish: bądź wola Twoja
    Kashubian: niech mdze Twòja wòlô
    Upper Sorabian: Stań so Twoja wola,

    See what i mean? It is very difficult to know where Slavic stops and Germanic starts...

    A lot of "germanic" words could be most western version of this central European language words, and a lot of Slavic words are eastern versions of this central European language words. Only 400 years ago the language in central Europe from balkans to baltic was pretty much one and the same. It is this language that influenced all the surrounding languages, as well being influenced by them.

    Guys thanks for reading and thanks for your comments.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Maps of Celtic Europe are seriously out of date:


    La tene:

    This has absolutely nothing to do with archaeological reality.

    Excerpt from Book VII. Chapter VII. 8. Epirus.
    The Amphilochians are Epirotae, as also are those nations who inhabit a rugged country situated above and close to the Illyrian mountains, the Molotti, Athamanes, Aethiceas, Tymphaei, Orestae Paroraei, and Atintanes, some of whom approach nearer to Macedonia, others to the Ionian Gulf. It is said that Orestes possessed the territory Orestias at the time of his flight, after the murder of his mother, and left the country bearing his name, where also he had built a city called Orestic Argos. With these people are intermixed Illyrian nations, some of whom are situated on the southern part of the mountainous district, and others above the Ionian Gulf. For above Epidamnus and Apollonia, as far as the Ceraunian mountains, live the Bulliones, Taulantii, Parthini, and Brygi.*

    *These nations are mentioned by other authors; they were probably separated by the numerous mountain ridges to the west of Pindus.

    Somewhere near are the silver mines of Damnstium. Here the Perisadyes had established their sway, and Enchelii, who are also called Sesarethii. Then come the Lyncestae, the territory Deuriopus, Pelagonia-Tripolitis, the Eordi, Elimia, and Eratyra. Formerly each of these nations was under its own prince. The chiefs of the Enchelii were descendants of Cadmus and Harmonia, and scenes of the fables respecting these persons are shown in the territory. This nation, therefore, was not governed by native princes. The Lyncestae were under Arrhabaeus, who was of the race of the Bacchiadae. Irra was his daughter, and his grand-daughter was Eurydice, the mother of Philip Amyntas.

    The Molotti also were Epirotae, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally defeated by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf. They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonia empire, they fell under the power of the Romans.

    Damnstium has been found near town of Vranje in southern Serbia, 10 miles from where i come from and where people still use "Celtic" crosses. Strabo never mentions Celts, he Talks about Ilyrians, but the archeological finds show Celtic, Maceodian and Greek presence living together in the same locality.

    Here is amended map of "Celtic" lands:


    Here is amended map of La Tene lands:


    The city has had at least three thousand inhabitants, and the town covered four or five acres. Since 2001. when the archaeological excavations began, we've explored only six or seven per cent of the surface....The site is unique because of the fact that we have an ancient material that has been developed in the Greek workshops, we have authentic material that is done here in the workshops based on the Greek model, and we have a material that is typical of Scordisci. In the Central Balkan area has not provided Greek material so far north or Scordici material so far south.

    Archaeological investigations at the site Kale in Krševica near Bujanovac (southeast Serbia) have revealed in the course of excavations conducted from 2001 to 2005 that it is a unique site in the Južna Morava valley where the significant remains of two civilizations – Greek and Celtic – have been encountered. The most massive layers with buildings, ramparts and other structures as well as abundant finds of imported and local pottery made after Greek models date from the fourth and the first half of the third century BC. Such organized settlement as a single urban centre within wide territory could have attracted the attention of antique writers and as possible identification are quoted the data of Strabo who mentions ‘ancient city’ and Damastium. Later horizon yielded pottery characteristic of the Late La Tène production in the territory of Scordisci and of local shapes from the neighbouring areas. Remains of fortification at the acropolis turned out to be in the second / first century BC important stronghold used by the Scordisci and other barbarians in their plundering campaigns against the Romans in Macedonia as is witnessed in the antique sources.,_Central_Balkans_between_thr_Greek_and_Celtic_world.pdf

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    Doesn't seem like it exists only in Serbian.

    From Middle English cleven, from the Old English strong verb clēofan, from Proto-Germanic *kleubaną, from Proto-Indo-European *glewbʰ- (“to cut, to slice”). Cognate with Dutch klieven, dialectal German klieben, Swedish klyva, and Greek γλύφω (glyfó, “carve”).

    The Book of Invasions is as much christian mythology as Irish and is an attempt to link Irish christianity with ancient christianity.
    There is no link to haplogroup I and physical features, zero. A haplogroup and it's clades are defined by 1 mutation on a tiny part of the y chromosome in the entire genome.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Ipso are you actually reading my whole comment and are you going to have a look at the links or are you just jumping to the the first ball?
    Doesn't seem like it exists only in Serbian.

    I have quoted the same thing in my reply to you. As i said look at the distribution of the word in Europe.
    The Book of Invasions is as much christian mythology as Irish and is an attempt to link Irish christianity with ancient christianity.

    I mentioned the book of invasions because of its name "Lebor Gabála Érenn" where Gabala exists in Irish, means taking, or conquering or grabbing and it is old and it didn't come from Arabic, as Wiktionary would like us to think.
    There is no link to haplogroup I and physical features, zero. A haplogroup and it's clades are defined by 1 mutation on a tiny part of the y chromosome in the entire genome.

    Ok. Then Explain to me how come we have Dinaric people with such striking racial features different from surrounding population, all found in Dinaric Alps where people have predominantly I2a haplogroup? Also how can you explain striking features of Fins who are all N haplogroup? Or Nordics who are predominantly I1 haplogroup. Maybe this is not politically correct but it's a fact. I don't particularly care about genes. I don't know my own haplogroup, but we know from archaeological finds that long narrow head people were at some point replaced with broad head people. Have a look at typical head shape in Europe and let me know where could narrow head people have come from.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4 iamfick

    hi dublin.

    the folks at iarcuri were cruceni-belegis which is the vattina culture. it is this culture that is accused of being the destroyers of the greek cities and the troad at the time of the sea people raids/trojan war. if you can find a bunch of maps of the sea peoples activities, check where most of them have their migrations beginning from. being vattina does not limit one to 1450-1250bc as the term trojan princes suggests.

    personally i think the greeks had to sail up the danube because the allies of iarcuri south of the danube threatened the greeks from the adriatic to the bosporus.

    after the war some books say antenor was allowed to rebuild. that is supported by the archeology. the book says they worked with the romans to clear the swamps of alamani[? forget exactly] but left to found a copy of troy in france. i believe we would call these people tricasses or franki and the city they build is now called troyes.

    have you considered the irish leaving central europe around 3000 bc, building up their numbers in ireland and sending a large contingent back to their homeland to get even with their former tormentors?

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    Ipso are you actually reading my whole comment and are you going to have a look at the links or are you just jumping to the the first ball?

    I have quoted the same thing in my reply to you. As i said look at the distribution of the word in Europe.

    I mentioned the book of invasions because of its name "Lebor Gabála Érenn" where Gabala exists in Irish, means taking, or conquering or grabbing and it is old and it didn't come from Arabic, as Wiktionary would like us to think.

    Ok. Then Explain to me how come we have Dinaric people with such striking racial features different from surrounding population, all found in Dinaric Alps where people have predominantly I2a haplogroup? Also how can you explain striking features of Fins who are all N haplogroup? Or Nordics who are predominantly I1 haplogroup. Maybe this is not politically correct but it's a fact. I don't particularly care about genes. I don't know my own haplogroup, but we know from archaeological finds that long narrow head people were at some point replaced with broad head people. Have a look at typical head shape in Europe and let me know where could narrow head people have come from.

    It's nothing to do with pc, people look the same as those closest to them. I have no idea where those featues came from but trying to link physical features to y haplogroups is way over simplistic. It is just 1 mutation and males can have more offspring that females which can give misleadingly high numbers of a haplogroup. What you should be looking at is autosomnal components.

    Try this blog, the search function should be useful.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    It is amazing how sometimes you stare at important things and you are too blind to see them.

    As I already said in one of my previous posts, "mpbv" sound group is interchangeable. With the same basic mouth position we can produce any of the above sounds depending how strongly we apply the pressure and where. This is particularly true of "b" and "v" and this is why we see the same word pronounced sometimes with "b" and sometimes with "v" depending on a dialect. Example is "bo" and "vo" for cattle. The same is true for the "ghk" sound group.

    Now let me go back to our Goban Saor.
    In Gobán Saor can be seen elements of Goibniu, the Old Irish god of smithcraft.[1] His name can be compared with the Old Irish gobae ~ gobann ‘smith,’ Middle Welsh gof ~ gofein ‘smith,’ Gallic gobedbi ‘with the smiths,’ Latin faber ‘smith’ and with the Lithuanian gabija ‘sacred home fire’ and Lithuanian gabus ‘gifted, clever’.[2]
    In Irish mythology Goibniu (Old Irish) or Goibhniu (Modern Irish – pronounced ˈɡovʲnʲu or gov-nu) was the smith of the Tuatha Dé Danann.

    As you can see there is no mention of Serbian again.

    If we look at words for metal in European languages we see this:

    Greek: métallo
    Latin: metalli
    All germanic languages descend from this root and sound like metal
    All east slavic languages including Bulgarian and Makedonian descend from this root and sound like metal
    All romanse languages - descend from this root and sound like metal
    Albanian, Basque, Catalan, Galician, Balitc languages, Finish - metal
    Georgian - rkinis and Metal
    Turkish - maden
    Gudjarati - Dhātunī
    Hindi - Dhātu
    Even Irish and Welsh words for metal descend from this root and sound like metal

    But in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, Czech, Slovak, all central European west Slavic languages, the word for metal is "Kov" or "Kovina".

    Now let's see what derived words do we have in Serbian based on root "kov":

    kov(ina) - metal
    kovati - to forge to perform metal work
    kovacnica, kovnica - forge, smithy, farriery, stithy
    kovanica - something forcefully stack together like being forged
    kovach - smith

    and then we have these European words painfully stack together probably to give Indo European pedigree to the Irish word Gobann - smith

    In Gobán Saor can be seen elements of Goibniu, the Old Irish god of smithcraft.[1] His name can be compared with the Old Irish gobae ~ gobann ‘smith,’ Middle Welsh gof ~ gofein ‘smith,’ Gallic gobedbi ‘with the smiths,’ Latin faber ‘smith’ and with the Lithuanian gabija ‘sacred home fire’ and Lithuanian gabus ‘gifted, clever’.

    So Gobann is actually Kovan or Kovach, a foreigner who was gifted and clever, who worked with sacred fire, who new the secret of smelting and making metal weapons and who became deified as Goibniu or Kov nu the smith god.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Thanks so much for your post.
    the folks at iarcuri were cruceni-belegis which is the vattina culture. it is this culture that is accused of being the destroyers of the greek cities and the troad at the time of the sea people raids/trojan war. if you can find a bunch of maps of the sea peoples activities, check where most of them have their migrations beginning from. being vattina does not limit one to 1450-1250bc as the term trojan princes suggests.

    I used term trojan princes as a metafore as it is used in so many sources to describe founders of western European cities. I did not want to talk about the see people as i don't know enough about them. My intention was to show that there is a link (again) between central europe and British isles during bronze age and that the direction of the cultural spread was again central Europe, south Baltic, Britain.
    have you considered the irish leaving central europe around 3000 bc, building up their numbers in ireland and sending a large contingent back to their homeland to get even with their former tormentors?

    I did. The problem is defining the "Irish". Same dragon, many heads. What do you have in mind?

  • Registered Users Posts: 4 iamfick


    Thanks so much for your post.

    I did. The problem is defining the "Irish". Same dragon, many heads. What do you have in mind?

    there isn't anything you could name the irish that would bother me probably. epi-tardi-gravettians or proto-southern europeans is good. if you wanted to call them atlanteans, i would fight on your side for that cause even. what did you have in mind?

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare

    Hi dublinviking,

    "I don't think you can attribute any of the features described in the maps to Romans. But you can to Central Europeans."

    Can you explain this response? Without some background to this statement it would seem that you are just trying to de-grade the Irish.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus

    I just had a thought. Since Ireland is an island it would have been a bit of an effort to make a trip over the sea and there would have been a reason a large group of people from the same "community" would bother making the trip.

    Whether this group came from mainland Europe or was in the UK there really is only two reasons why a large group would make a trip together.

    A: to invade

    B: to escape

    So maybe the group of people that landed in Ireland were being forced and chased out of Europe. As Ireland is the farthest point West and surrounded by water it seems like a good idea to hide away.

    Dunno if this means anything to what you guys are discussing. Maybe though.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    bogwalrus wrote: »
    I just had a thought. Since Ireland is an island it would have been a bit of an effort to make a trip over the sea and there would have been a reason a large group of people from the same "community" would bother making the trip.

    Whether this group came from mainland Europe or was in the UK there really is only two reasons why a large group would make a trip together.

    A: to invade

    B: to escape

    So maybe the group of people that landed in Ireland were being forced and chased out of Europe. As Ireland is the farthest point West and surrounded by water it seems like a good idea to hide away.

    Dunno if this means anything to what you guys are discussing. Maybe though.

    In the Iron Age/start of the first millenium you had Roman expansion in Britain then later Saxon invasions, they coincide with the arrival of groups like the Cruithin, Brigantes/p celtic speaking British groups and possibly Belgic groups.
    The Fir Domnann of the Fir Bolg may also be linked to the British group the Dumnonii.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    kildare boy
    I don't think you can attribute any of the features described in the maps to Romans. But you can to Central Europeans

    The maps i showed are of bronze age hill forts and bronze age artifacts. This has nothing to do with Romans. Rome did not exist in 1200 - 800 bc when these things arrived in Ireland. The reason why i wrote the post about the distribution of the bronze age finds in Ireland is this:

    From the stone age onward, we find that things appear in central Europe first then in south Baltic then in south east England and North East Ireland then in West Wales and Scotland. Every time. Stone age, Copper age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Vikings...

    Why? And how? And why can't you read about it in Any history books? Why is it always the Gaul and Iberia which are mentioned as cultural influences in Ireland and never Central Europe and South Baltic. Why does culture come form the south and barbarians from the north when the evidence is the opposite? Maybe because the Gaels who came from iberia and the south won the war and were the last to take the Ireland, and the victors write the history.
    Can you explain this response?

    I hope i did.
    Without some background to this statement it would seem that you are just trying to de-grade the Irish.

    No I am not, you are. By ignoring the fact that the Irish are equally the Gaels and Galls (the foreigners) you are ignoring a huge part of your own heritage. Should my son be ashamed of me because i am a Gall from Vladichinhan in Serbia, but proud of my wife because she is a Gael from Ballyphehane in Cork Ireland? I don't get it... Don't we both make him who he is?

    We don't know who the Irish and Serbians are. We think we know, but what we "know" does not match linguistic, historical, ethnological, archaeological and genetic data. So I am trying to present that data here so people can make up their own minds.


    Ireland was a very important stop on the Atlantic - Caspian maritime route. It was not a back water. Until we built the roads traveling was different than it is today. You definitely want to avoid forests and mountains. So you traveled on steppes and water. This is why we see the such concentration of cultures in low lying coastal areas, and this is why south Baltic is so important. It directly connects the sea and the steppe, two major communication routs.

    You don't come to plunder and then waste time building all the gigantic stone and earth structures you have at home as a "central Europeans were here" sign and then leave. Who ever came from central Europe came, liked it, and stayed. And kept contact with "back home" as the cousins kept coming century after century to the same areas.
    By the way the same was true for the south west of Ireland. They also kept contact with Iberia and kept coming.
    These two peoples lived together for so long that they had to have mixed.

    Here is what Eupedia says about current genetic map of Ireland:

    R1b = 81%

    R1b in Ireland is mostly atlantic R1b-L21 which is almost non existent in central Europe.

    Central European R1b-S21 has a frequency in Ireland of 15-5% with the highest concentration in the north and east of Ireland, right where we find Tara and all the other central European artifacts. R1b-S21 has the peak of concentration in the same area of south Baltic as I2b, the exact area from which all the Central Europeans came from. This is the border area between the Germanics and the Slavs, the polabia, the pomerania, the land of pomori. If you add I1 and R1a to the mix, which also have relatively high concentration there as well, you get your Bronze age people, and your Iron age people, and your Anglo Saxons tribal federation, and your Danish Vikings tribal federation. Look at the maps and look at Ireland and England and you will see what I am talking about.

    R1a = 2.5%

    We find R1a again only in north and it closely corresponds to the distribution of central western European R1b-S28. It seems almost that these two groups came pre mixed.

    I1 = 6%
    I2a = 1%
    I2b = 5%

    The distribution of the I haplogroup is similar, except that we find a lot of it in the north as well. The north of Ireland is the land of Cruithin. Is the I2a the gene of the Cruithin?

    Here is something interesting about I2a2a1-M284 (formerly I2b1a) in Ireland. Ireland is very good for genetic genealogy research because of its clans and a long written history.
    I2a2a1 (M284) seems to have arisen in Britain, where it is most common. It is very rare in Continental Europe, where the highest frequency is found in Portugal, Britain's oldest ally. James Wilson argues that this points to an Iberian origin in the Mesolithic,9 but the calculated TMRCA is far too late for such a scenario, and the parent clade is not found there. Instead the flow was most probably in the other direction - to Portugal over the centuries with British merchants, diplomats, sailors and soldiers. M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland. Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, and particularly in baronial families with a credible pedigree back to a Cruithin (British) origin, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. For example it is found in McGuinness and McCartan men descended from the Uí Echach Cobha, a lineage considered Cruithin in the 6th century AD.10 See Celtic Tribes of Ireland for more on the Cruithin and their time of arrival in Ireland.

    As I said everything is still up in the air. How did I2a end up in the North west midlands? How did all these I2a end up in Portugal?

    So are Cruithin the same as Priteni the same as Picts the same as Scythians?

    It is interesting that the first recorded king of Cruithin in Ireland was Áed Dub mac Suibni which means "Black Aed from the Clan (son of) Suibni". Why was he called the black, or dark? And are Suibni the same as Suebi?

    North East Ireland is archaeologically different from the rest of the country. So that corresponds to the genetic differences as well.

    There is something else interesting about the north. Ui Neill clan is predominantly R1b1c7. But O'Neills from Ulster belong to I1c haplogroup.

    This shows that the peoples of Ireland intermarried, mixed, formed coalitions, lived with one another not just against each other.

    E1b = 2%
    G2a = 1%
    J2 = 1%

    You can clearly see the border between R1a i E1b. It seems that Iverni, who lived in the south brought with them E1b, J2 and G2a. These are the people who brought the afro asiatic language traits into Ireland.

    But look at the concentrations of these haplogroups in the Balkans, in Caucasus, Iberia, Italy and Asia minor. Remember the sea people who controlled the Mediteranean - Atlantic - Baltic - Volga - Caspian maritime route?
    Remember mushki?
    Have a look at Corsica and Sardinia and the overlap of I2 and G2. Why is that?
    Look at the concentration of G2 in Italy? Are we looking at Etruscans and later Etruscan roman tribes?
    Look at the concentrations of G2 and J2 in Egypt and north Africa? What about the legends of Egyptian princess Scota who came to Ireland and became the mother of Scots?

    The concentration and distribution of non Atlantic haplogroups in Ireland could have been even greater before, but time passed, people migrated, died from plagues and famines, emigrated, immigrated...

    I really don't like talking about genes. I don't believe that one is better than the other. But sometimes it is good to see how genetics matches the archaeological, linguistic and ethnological data and how all of that data contradict the existing "historical" records...

    And how about this:
    The Nerva–Antonine dynasty was a dynasty of seven Roman Emperors who ruled over the Roman Empire from 96 AD to 192 AD. These Emperors are Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Lucius Verus, and Commodus.

    Emperors Trojan, Hadrian, Marcus Aurelius are from Iberia.

    So at the time of Iverni in Ireland, while Britannia was being built in England by the Romans we have Iberian Emperors?

    And not just that.
    The ancestors of the Ulpii were Roman colonists in Hispania. Little is known of them, except that they were connected with a family of the Aelii who had also settled in Hispania; Trajan's aunt was the grandmother of the emperor Hadrian.[2][3][4] According to one account, the Ulpii were originally from Tuder, in northern Umbria, where indeed there is evidence of a family of this name.[5] The name itself may be derived from an Umbrian cognate of the Latin word lupus, meaning "wolf."[5]

    So here we have two obscure families, tied closely together, both from Iberia, ruling Roman empire. And the leading one is from Umbria.
    The Cymric ch (guttural) is, as in the Semitic languages, constantly dropped— Charan, Haran ; Cham,
    Ham ; Chomer, Gomer, Homer ; Chumbri, Cumbri, Humbri, Umbri ; chwar, war ; chwi, ye, you ; chwil,
    wheel ; chwyl (as long as), while ; chwant (lust), want. Tliis guttural (x) is common to the Cymric, Sanscrit,
    Gothic, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Greek, German and Sclavonic.

    Who were these people? And were Milesians or solders of Spain in any way related to them?
    The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.[1][2]
    The Tower of Hercules (Galician and Spanish: Torre de Hércules) is an ancient Roman lighthouse on a peninsula about 2.4 kilometers (1.5 mi) from the centre of Corunna, Galicia, in north-western Spain. Until the 20th century, the tower itself was known as the "Farum Brigantium"....The tower is known to have existed by the 2nd century, built or perhaps rebuilt under Trajan, possibly on foundations following a design that was Phoenician in origin....

    So Emperor Trojan, the Iberian, built the Tower known as the tower of Hercules. The Irish say that Breogán (Bregian, Brigian) built the tower. The Spanish called the tower Farum Brigantium, the light house of Brigantes. Trojan comes from Umbrian, Cumbrian, Kimbrian family. He then goes and conquers Dacia, the place where we find the original "king with long ears" story which was spread around the world by Bregians, Brigantes. In England at the time of Trajan and Hadrian we find both Cymbrians and Brigantians.
    Hadrian was born Publius Aelius Hadrianus in Italica,[7] or in Rome,[8] from a well-established family which had originated in Picenum in Italy and had subsequently settled in Italica, Hispania Baetica (the republican Hispania Ulterior), near the present-day location of Seville, Spain.

    He was from Picenum, the Illyrian Liburnian colony in Italy which was next to Chumbria. Liburnians were the best boat builders of Iron Age and their boats are said to be the prototype of later Viking boats. They became the official Roman navy and built and manned Roman military ships. Picenians were military people which retained close ties with the Balkans.
    Navigable skills and mobility of the Liburnians on their swift ships, the Liburna allowed them to be present, very early, not only along the Eastern Adriatic coast, they reached also the opposite, western, Italic coast. This process started during great Pannonian-Adriatic movements and migrations at the end of the Bronze Age, from the 12th to 10th century BC. In the Iron Age, they were already in the Italic coast, establishing colonies in Apulia and especially in Picenum, where specific Iron Age cultures developed.[20]
    From the 9th to the 6th century BC there was certain koine – cultural unity in the Adriatic, with the general Liburninan seal, whose naval supremacy meant both political and economical authority through a several centuries. Some similar toponyms attested not only Liburnian but also other Illyrian migrations to the central and south Italy, respectively Apulia and Picenum.[21]

    But we also have this:
    The Apuli were a Thracian tribe centered at the Dacian town Apulon (Lat. Apulum) near what is now Alba Iulia in Transylvania, Romania.
    Apuli has clear resemblance to Apulia, the ancient southeastern Italy region, which it is believe to have been settled by Illyrian tribes (also named Apuli or Iapyges).
    Linguists use it as an example for the similarities between Illyrian and Daco-Thracian languages.[1]

    So what do we have here. Is this all just coincidence?

    There is so much we don't know.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    The distinction between cruithin and pict is a strange one from an Irish context. Pict was just a name Romans gave to people beyond their borders which ended up being Scotland. It means painted one an refers to the method of body painting carried out by non Romanised Britons.
    Cruithin seems to be an Irish term fir a Briton in general and may be the q celtic version of pretani. Below is a good thread. The Scythia link is another attempt to give them a biblical origin

    I think you may be getting mixed up with the I snps. I1c is an old name for some of the I2a2 snps.
    M284 does turn up in names associated with the cruithin but so do R1b snps. Most surnames have a y dna breakdown rhat are similar: doninated by R1b-m269 and a scatter of I and maybe E or G.
    M284 also turns up in UiNiall surnames for example which are usually M222 (which was known as R1b1c at one point) dominated. I actually carry M284 and another snp that originated in Scotland.

    I2a is thought to be a very old entry to the isles and in Europe in general so it's not unusual to find it in small numbers.
    Without ancient dna there's no way of knowing what was in Ireland pre the R1b take off, although I2 and G2 woud be good guesses.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi Ipso

    Thanks for your post. You are right about the Picts just being the roman name for the northerners, but i believe you are wrong for dismissing the Picts - Cruithin - Pruteni - Scythians and potentially old Prussians (East baltic people). I am planning to write about this link next week. North of Ireland, the Cruithin land is the place where we find the most east baltic and scythian artifacts.

    As for the haplogroup names. I am aware of the name changes and all the new stuff going on. You can see all that on Eupedia pages I quoted. I used the old names because they were the names when i wrote the original papers. Thanks for your correction.
    Most surnames have a y dna breakdown rhat are similar: doninated by R1b-m269 and a scatter of I and maybe E or G.

    Exactly what i am trying to point to. But we still don't know if the today's minority genes were in the past the majority genes in certain area (north east), or just ruling elite. The archaeology, linguistics, ethnology point to one of these two being the case. I would be inclined to believe that due to the amount of the Central European linguistic traits, the first was the case.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare

    Hi DublinViking,

    "The maps i showed are of bronze age hill forts and bronze age artifacts. This has nothing to do with Romans. Rome did not exist in 1200 - 800 bc when these things arrived in Ireland. The reason why i wrote the post about the distribution of the bronze age finds in Ireland is this:

    From the stone age onward, we find that things appear in central Europe first then in south Baltic then in south east England and North East Ireland then in West Wales and Scotland. Every time. Stone age, Copper age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Vikings...

    Why? And how? And why can't you read about it in Any history books? Why is it always the Gaul and Iberia which are mentioned as cultural influences in Ireland and never Central Europe and South Baltic. Why does culture come form the south and barbarians from the north when the evidence is the opposite? Maybe because the Gaels who came from iberia and the south won the war and were the last to take the Ireland, and the victors write the history. "

    Thats cool, Just wanted a bit of background to the statement thats all.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    hi all

    While i am translating the next big chunk here is something to amuse yourselves with: A collection of common Serbian Irish insults :) and words related to nasty and ugly things and people:

    Irish: boil, boile - madness, Irish buile, Early Irish baile
    Serbian: baljesgati - talk like a madman, make no sense

    Irish: blabaran - stammerer, Irish blabarán, from the English blabber, speak inarticulately
    Serbian: blebetati - speak inarticulately

    Irish: baisceall - a wild person (Sh.); Middle Irish basgell
    Serbian: bes - fury, besan - furious, besnica - promiscuous woman, besnik - wild person

    Irish: abair - say, so Irish, Old Irish epiur, Celtic ád-berô;
    Serbian: aber - word, abronosha - gossiper (word aber also exists in turkish, probably as a result of either irish or serbian people moving there in distant time)

    Irish: déibhleid a feeble or awkward person, Middle Irish déblén, Early Irish dedblén, weakling, from dedbul, weak
    Serbian: debil - feeble or awkward person

    Irish: drip - hurry, confusion, Irish drip, bustle, snare
    Serbian: dripac - someone who is capable of causing havoc

    Irish: dreòlan - a silly person
    Serbian: drlepan - a silly person

    Irish: draos - trash, filth
    Serbian: droca - whore

    Irish: deàrgnaidh- unlearned from der-, privative prefix
    Serbian: deran - kid which knows nothing, unlearned

    Irish: saobhan - mental
    Serbian Shaban - glup, primitive

    Irish: Budalach - big funny young person
    Serbian: Budala - stupid, immature, ignorant person (usually big funny young person) :)

    Irish: balbhan - dumb person
    Serbian: balvan - a tree log, something blunt, inert. Expression: "glup ko balvan" stupid like a log

    Irish: Dudach - mopish shy foolish
    Serbian: Duduk - ignorant, foolish

    Irish: Gadai - thief, fogue
    Serbian: Gad - a nasty person

    Irish: Strabhas - grimace, ugly expression
    Serbian: Stava - horror (and accompanying ugly expression)

    Irish: graganach - shaggy person
    Serbian: garagan - shaggy person usually kids

    Irish: graosta - lewd, obscene, filthy
    Serbian: greota - lewd, obscene, filthy

    Irish: raga - worthless person or thing
    Serbian: raga worthless person or thing usually horse

    Irish: ba - stupid, also onomatopoeic name for sheep
    Serbian - "glup ko ovca" stupid like a sheep

    Irish: clip - tease, torment, prick
    Serbian: klipan - someone who teases, torments, pricks

    Irish: muta - worthless, lout
    Serbian: mutav - worthles, stupid but also dumb (both meaning stupid and unable to speak which was equated with stupid)

    Irish: gairbhe - roughness
    Serbian: grubost - roughness

    Irish: gairbheisach - rough person
    Serbian: grubian - rough person

    Irish: druth - irresponsible person, imbecile
    Serbian: drtina - old useless person or animal

    Irish: Cac - excrement
    Serbian: kaka - euphemism used for excrement

    Irish: bochd - poor, so Irish, Old Irish bocht;
    Serbian: ubog - u bog meaning in poverty poor

    This is by no means the final list. Just few things i found while looking for other things.

    So how do we explain such overlap in this type of words? I believe that it can only happen if Irish and Serbians lived mixed for a long time. Common insults meant that these people were able to understand each other quite well...

    Also all the words for main sexual body parts are the same, but I will cover this in a separate post.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    This is very interesting word:

    Irish: bás - death
    Serbian: bas(z) - stink, basdi - stinks (smells like a corpse, like something dead something rotting)

    In Serbian we have another word for stink and stinks

    smrad, smerd - stink, smrdi, smerdi - stinks

    This word comes from slavic word for death smrt, smert. As t and d are interchangeable we get:

    smrd, smrad, smerd - stink

    smrddi, smrdi, smraddi, smerddi = smrdi - stinks (smells like a corpse, like something dead something rotting)

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Celts - Serbs - Turks

    Word bás meaning death shows us (I believe) a forgotten Irish - Serbian - Turkish linguistic connection.

    We know that Celts from the Balkans went to Asia minor and formed Galatia. What happened with all these people and their language? Well they are now Turks and their language is incorporated into Turkish. The same happened to all the Serbs who migrated to Asia minor over last two millenniums under Romans and Turks, and to Brigantes and all the other central European people who migrated to Asia minor....They are all now Turks and their languages have left traces in Turkish language in words which exist in Irish, Serbian and Turkish. These words are almost like graffiti saying: "Bran the Celt was here"...

    So word bás meaning death.

    In Serbian there is a work basamak which means step, as in staircase step, but which originally meant a doorstep, any raised thing made of wooden block or stone block on which or over which you had to step to get into or out of a house or a room.

    If you look at Serbian dictionaries you will see that the word is labeled as borrowing from Turkish. In Turkish there is a word basamak or basmak.

    Wiktionary says this:

    basamak is a Turkish translation of the word stairs ("contiguous set of steps").

    google translate gives us this for turkish word basamak:

    basamak - step, digit, tread, rung, place, stair

    babylon says this

    n. stair, step; digit, echelon, footstep, grade, ladder, pitch, place, rung, scale, tread, tread board, column; order

    But in Turkish the word for foot and verb to step have nothing to do with basamak. The root words are adim and ayak and they come from proto turkic

    ayak - foot, leg, leg, stand, hoof, tootsy
    adım - step, foot, pace, footstep, pas

    So where did basamak come from?

    In Irish and in Serbian bas means dead. Old Serbs used to cremate and bury their dead under the doorstep or under the fire hearth. This is why these two places are sacred in Serbian tradition, because Serbian religion is based on ancestor worship. Serbian families literally lived on top of their dead ancestors. Serbian houses were like mausoleums where dead and alive were always together. Serbian house was the holiest place for the Serbs and this is why originally Serbs had no external shrines but had their shrines in their houses. You can consider the doorstep stone as the original tombstone which was placed over the dead. You can also consider the stones placed in a circle around the fire hearth as the original henges with the eternal holy flame burning in the center of this holy enclosure and the dead lying under the stones, like in stonehenge. The doorstep was considered and is still considered the most sacred place in the house and is not supposed to be stepped on. This is where the custom of carrying the bride over the doorstep comes from. Stepping on the doorstep would bring a bad luck to the house and to insure that that did not happen, the groom would carry the bride across the doorstep. This is the same belief which stops people walking over graves. Doorstep and the fire hearth are considered to be magical places and this is why any house and family magic in Serbia is performed either at the door or at the fire hearth. If a magical ritual is performed on the doorstep the person that performs the magical ritual kneels on the doorstep like you would kneel in the church at the altar.

    In Ireland we have this custom:
    St. Stephen was the first Christian martyr whose feast day is the day after Christmas. It is a national holiday in Ireland, but its roots go back beyond Chritianity. The tradition is for children to go "hunting the wren" on St. Stephen's Day. It is killed and its corpse, or its effigy, is put on a pole, or sometimes in a basket. "The wren boys" go from home to home displaying the dead bird and begging for money "to bury the wren." At the door step of each home the 'Bean an Tí' (the woman of the house), is beseeched,

    The wren, the wren, the King of all birds,
    St. Stephen's Day was caught in the furze.
    So up with the kettel and down with the pan,
    and give us a penny to bury the wren.

    The house that is least generous is likely to have the wren buried under their door step.

    Doorstep is considered to be a magical place and to jinx someones house you would place the bad spell under the doorstep. Equally to protect someones house you would put a good spell on or under the doorstep.

    Why were Serbs burying ancestors under doorsteps? One of the reason is to insure the protection of the house from evil spirits which were "out there". Burying the dead under the doorstep would insure that the spirits of the ancestors would hang around the house door and protect the house from bad spirits by forming a spirit guard at the house door. Serbs consider the house, the place where the people and their gods (ancestors) are, the center of the world. So the door is more the exit into the rest of the world than the entrance into the house. And to enter or exit this holy space you have to step over the dead.

    What does all this have to do with the word basamak?

    In Irish we have this word:

    amach - forth(adv), out(adv)(go, come), outward(jonrney)

    In Serbian we have this word:

    mak, maknuti, maći - to move
    umak, umaknuti, umaći - to move out of reach
    zamaknuti, zamaći - move out of sight, exit out of sight

    So basamak = bas + amak = death (the dead) + move, step, go = go over the dead, the place where you go over the dead

    There are two other words from Irish that are very interesting from the point of view of Serbian, Irish, Turkish connection and they both sound like and are linked to the word bás:


    bas - palm of the hand, Irish, Old Irish bas, bass, boss, Breton boz, *bostâ.
    basc - destroy by hitting. In English the equivalent word is bash.
    bascadh - bashing
    bastall - bombast, captiousness
    bos - palm, handfull, slap
    boisc - boast
    boiseog - slap
    baslaig - beat, baste
    bascarnach - wailing, lamentation

    Here is what we find for word bash on wiktionary:
    From Old Norse, akin to Swedish basa 'to baste, whip, lash, flog', Danish baske 'to beat, strike, cudgel', German patschen (“to slap”)[1].

    In Serbian we have these words:

    bas - hand, fist
    basati - strike with hand
    basati se - to boast, to lament, to wail
    bastati - be brave, able, daring
    busa - to strike with the hand.
    busati - to strike with the hand.
    busati se - to boast, to lament, to wail
    busija - ambush, to suddenly jump out od the bush and strike (bas, bus, bash) someone
    bucati - the same word busati (strike) with s pronounced like ts (hard s).
    razbucati - destroy, bash to death, smash to pieces
    bastisati - beat up
    izbastisati - destroy

    In Serbian expression "busati se u grudi" means to boast, but literally it means to strike oneself in the chest while speaking about your own exploits.

    Here is the official etymology for word boast:
    mid-13c., "arrogance, presumption, pride, vanity;" c.1300, "a brag, boastful speech," from Anglo-French bost "ostentation," probably via Scandinavian (cf. Norwegian baus "proud, bold, daring"), from Proto-Germanic *bausia "to blow up, puff up, swell" (cf. Middle High German bus "swelling," dialectal German baustern "to swell;" Middle Dutch bose, Dutch boos "evil, wicked, angry," Old High German bosi "worthless, slanderous," German böse "evil, bad, angry"), from PIE *bhou-, variant of root *beu-, *bheu- "to grow, swell" (see bull (n.2)).

    Maybe the etymology is slightly different and it comes from Irish, Serbian, Germanic bas, palm of hand or strike ones chest with a palm of hand while talking about ones exploits. How old is this expression? Have you ever seen gorilla males boasting?

    It is interesting that the word bas, bus is the root for the expression to to lament, to wail. During lamentation it is common to strike oneself in the chest as a sign of grief.

    Speaking of the Irish word "bas" meaning palm of hand, what about the Irish word "cas" meaning foot, step, rapid walk. In Serban "kas" means rapid walk and related to horses means "trot". It shows the connection between Irish and Serbian in words related to both extremities.

    Now back to word bás - dead. Maybe bás (dead) is someone bas(ed) (bashed) to death?

    And maybe the one who can bash others to death becomes the boss.

    This is what wiktionary says about the etymology of the English word boss:
    From Dutch baas, from Middle Dutch baes (“master of a household, friend”), from Old Dutch *baso (“uncle, kinsman”), from Proto-Germanic *baswô, masculine form of Proto-Germanic *baswǭ (“father's sister, aunt, cousin”). Cognate with Middle Low German bās (“supervisor, foreman”), Old Frisian bas (“master”), Old High German basa ("father's sister, cousin"; > German Base (“aunt, cousin”)).

    In Irish we have the word bas which apart from meaning palm of hand and strike means the boss, the best. But wiktionary thinks that this is a borrowing from English.
    From English boss, from Dutch baas, from Middle Dutch baes (“master of a household, friend”), from Old Dutch *baso (“uncle, kinsman”), from Proto-Germanic *baswô, masculine form of Proto-Germanic *baswōn (“father's sister, aunt, cousin”).
    bas m (genitive bas, nominative plural basanna)
    boss (person in charge)
    the best (of its class, etc.)

    What makes me believe that this word comes from old central European Irish, Serbian, Germanic language is this word in Turkish:
    baş (pronounced bash) - head, boss, beginning. From Old Turkic baş (“head”), from Proto-Turkic *baĺč.

    The etymology is given to be from old Turkic *baĺč but it could equaly be from Irish, Serbian, Germanic bas, bos, bus which describes all the attributes: head, father, leader, hand, to strike with the palm of ones hand, to bash, to kill in one word to be the boss. Interestingly this word also means wound.

    There is a very interesting thing in this list of old otoman loan words replaced with Turkish words. In the list of Persian words replaced with Turkish words we have this:

    Persian: ser Turkish: baş head
    Persian: serbest Turkish: erkin free

    So in Persian ser has the same meaning as Irish sar, saor and Serbian ser: the best, first, free.

    Back to our word boss. Here are Serbian and Croatian words which have meaning related to boss:

    baš (pronounced bash) - father
    baštin (pronounced bashtin) - belonging to the father
    baština - heritage, inheritance, to become the boss of household or property
    baštiniti - inherit
    baš - head, master, lord
    baša - father in law, but also any person in power coming from a city.
    bašluk - the head of the distaff
    baš (pronounced bash) - word meaning really, trully, which emphasises the meaning. Example "baš veliki" - really big
    baškariti se - 1. to do nothing, to laze about, to be a boss 2. to show off. Comes from root bash which is the same as Turkish and Irish and English head, boss, the best

    bus, busen - sod, greensward. it looks like a head with hair stiching up.
    bus - female genitals (bush, pussy, bazz)
    bus - head, like in this Serbian proverb: "nema busa dje neima trupa niti trave dje neima glave" - there is no head without the body and no grass without the head.

    It is interesting to note that the head, the palm of the hand, the sod or greensward, the bush and female pubic hair look very much alike.


    I will leave you to imagine the pubic hair and see the similarity :)

    There is also a Serbian name for special type of mace with spikes: buzdovan from bus - head. Again in Serbian dictionaries it says that the word has Turkish origin but when you look at Turkish translation for mace you get: "gürz, topuz, tören sopası, küçük hindistan cevizi kabuğu, gözyaşartıcı bomba sıvısı" of which topuz is the word used in Serbian.

    Here is a picture of buzdovan:


    No wander the word to describe all these was the same.

    Here is etymology for bush:
    From Middle English busch, busshe, from Old English busc, bysc (“copse, grove, scrub”, in placenames), from Proto-Germanic *buskaz (“bush, thicket”), probably from Proto-Indo-European *bʰuH- (“to grow”). Cognate with West Frisian bosk (“woods”), Dutch bos (“woods”), German Busch (“bush”), Danish busk (“bush, shrub”), Swedish buske (“bush, shrub”). Latin and Romance forms (Latin boscus, French bois and buisson, Italian bosco and boscaglia, Spanish bosque, Portuguese bosque) derive from the Germanic. The sense 'pubic hair' was first attested in 1745.

    I believe that the word bush has the same root as bas, bus, bos words representing head, hand, sod, greensward...

    So in Serbian we have the word bus, bas, bash describing the head, the boss, the master, the father.

    Now we come to the "greek" word basileus meaning king. The etymology of basileus is unclear.
    The Mycenaean form was gwasileus (qa-si-re-u), denoting some sort of court official or local chieftain, but not an actual king.

    Most of the Greek leaders in Homer's works are described as basileís, which is conventionally rendered in English as "kings". However, a more accurate translation may be "princes" or "chieftains", which would better reflect conditions in Greek society in Homer's time, and also the roles ascribed to Homer's characters. Agamemnon tries to give orders to Achilles among many others, while another basileus serves as his charioteer. His will, however, is not to be automatically obeyed. In Homer the wanax is expected to rule over the other basileis by consensus rather than by coercion, which is why Achilles proudly and furiously rebels (the central theme of the Iliad) when he perceives that Agamemnon is unjustly bossing him around.

    A study by Drews (1983) has demonstrated that even at the apex of Geometric and Archaic Greek society, basileus does not automatically translate to "king". In a number of places authority was exercised by a college of basileis drawn from a particular clan or group, and the office had term limits. However, basileus could also be applied to the hereditary leaders of "tribal" states, like those of the Arcadians and the Messenians, in which cases the term approximated the meaning of "king".

    Basileus and Megas Basileus were exclusively used by Alexander the Great and his Hellenistic successors in Ptolemaic Egypt, Asia and Macedon. The female counterpart is basilissa (Queen), meaning both a Queen regnant (such as Cleopatra VII of Egypt) and a Queen consort. It is precisely at this time that the term basileus acquired a fully royal connotation, in stark contrast with the much less sophisticated earlier perceptions of kingship within Greece.

    So where could this word come from? Maybe from Irish, Serbian, Germanic central European language in which bas, bus, bash means the head, the boss, the first, the father. This word could have later entered Turkish :

    bas - boss, the best, the first
    il - many, multiple
    lios - ring,ring fort,halo,fairy round

    bas + il + lios = the chief (head, boss) of many ring forts - chieftan, lord

    Or it could be just bas + il = basil = the bos, head of many, multiple people with eus being the greek ending.

    Either way it fits perfectly with the Il + Lios = Ilios = Troj.

    In the end Basilus brings us to Basilica.
    The Latin word basilica (derived from Greek βασιλική στοά, Royal Stoa, the tribunal chamber of a king), has three distinct applications in modern English. The word was originally used to describe a Roman public building, usually located in the forum of a Roman town. By extension it was applied to Christian buildings of the same form and continues to be used in an architectural sense to describe those buildings with a central nave and aisles. Later, the term came to refer specifically to a large and important church that has been given special ceremonial rights by the Pope.
    Basileios Stoa (Greek: βασίλειος στοά), also Basilike Stoa (Greek: βασιλική στοά), both meaning Royal Stoa, was a stoa constructed in Ancient Athens in the 5th century BC. It was located in the northwest corner (known as "the Herms" because of the great number of Herms set up there) of the Athenian Agora.
    The Royal Stoa was the headquarters of the King Archon and of the Areios Pagos council (in charge of religious affairs and crime). A statue of Themis (representing Justice) stands in front of the building. Copies of the city laws were kept in the Stoa.
    The front of the building was where Socrates met Euthyphro and had the conversation which Plato recreated in his Euthyphro. It was where Socrates was formally charged with impiety by Meletus. Historians believe that the voting for ostracism, a political practice in Athens during the 5th century BC, may have taken place in front of the Royal Stoa.[1]
    Stoa (/ˈstoʊə/; plural, stoas,[1] stoai,[1] or stoae /ˈstoʊ.iː/[2]) is a term defining, in ancient Greek architecture, covered walkways or porticos, commonly for public usage. Early stoas were open at the entrance with columns, usually of the Doric order, lining the side of the building; they created a safe, enveloping, protective atmosphere.
    A Herma (Ancient Greek: ἑρμῆς, pl ἑρμαῖ "hermai"),[1] commonly in English herm, is a sculpture with a head, and perhaps a torso, above a plain, usually squared lower section, on which male genitals may also be carved at the appropriate height. The form originated in Ancient Greece, and was adopted by the Romans, and revived at the Renaissance in the form of term figures and Atlantes.

    In the earliest times Greek divinities were worshipped in the form of a heap of stones or a shapeless column of stone or wood. In many parts of Greece there were piles of stones by the sides of roads, especially at their crossings, and on the boundaries of lands. The religious respect paid to such heaps of stones, especially at the meeting of roads, is shown by the custom of each passer-by throwing a stone on to the heap[2] or anointing it with oil. Later there was the addition of a head and phallus to the column, which became quadrangular (the number 4 was sacred to Hermes).[3]

    In ancient Greece the statues had an apotropaic function and were placed at crossings, country borders and boundaries as protection, in front of temples, near to tombs, in the gymnasia, palaestrae, libraries, porticoes, and public places, at the corners of streets, on high roads as sign-posts, with distances inscribed upon them.[4] Before his role as protector of merchants and travelers, Hermes was a phallic god, associated with fertility, luck, roads and borders.

    So here we have stoa, an artificial grove made of doric columns, where you stand, or as you would say it in serbian "stojish" coming from "stoj" meaning stand, and where you conduct the religious and judicial affairs. Stoa was built in the area called Herms full of sacred standing stones. Sacred groves with sacred standing stones where teacher thought and chieftains (bases) ruled over disputes sounds very familiar, don't you think?

    I particularly like the fact that the herms were dedicated to god Hermes god of boundaries. In Ireland and in Serbia standing stones were erected at the boundaries. The holly places were always located at the boundaries and these stones were venerated as fertility deities. It is interesting that herms had four sides as number four was sacred to Hermes.

    Serbian four sided herm (Svetovid)

    Scythian herms

    These stones represent ancestors and are in Serbian called baba which means parent, ancestor, progenitor and are obviously linked to fertility. It is interesting how the Serbian words for baba (ancestor), baba (beba) baby, and babica (midwife) are similar. Remember how dead were buried under the doorstep, the boundary of the house. A lot of boundary stones were also grave stones. When the dead stopped being buried at the house boundary, they were buried at village boundaries to insure the protection of the village. This is why graveyards are located at village boundaries.

    Finally here is where the anthropomorphic standing stones come from:
    Kurgan stelae (Mongolian: хүн чулуу; Russian: каменные бабы; Ukrainian: Баби кам'яні "stone babas"; Kyrgyz: балбал [bɑlbɑl]) or Balbals (балбал balbal, supposedly from a Turkic word balbal meaning "ancestor" or "grandfather"[1] or the Mongolic word "barimal" which means "handmade statue") are anthropomorphic stone stelae, images cut from stone, installed atop, within or around kurgans (i.e. tumuli), in kurgan cemeteries, or in a double line extending from a kurgan. The stelae are also described as "obelisks" or "statue menhirs".

    The earliest anthropomorphic stelae date to the 4th millennium BC, and are associated with the early Bronze Age Yamna Horizon, in particular with the Kemi Oba culture of the Crimea and adjacent steppe region.[4] Those in Ukraine number around three hundred, most of them very crude stone slabs with a simple schematic protruding head and a few features such as eyes or breasts carved into the stone. Some twenty specimens, known as statue menhirs, are more complex, featuring ornaments, weapons, human or animal figures.[5]

    I hope you had fun reading this.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    This was posted as a reply to my last post on another history site. I believe it is interesting as it shows how words get spread around by migrating people.
    nteresting indeed...

    in continuation the word ''ba'' in Chinese has the following meaning:

    把 - bǎ - to hold / to contain / to grasp / to take hold of / handle
    把 - bà - handle
    八 - bā - eight (8)
    巴 - Bā - state during Zhou dynasty
    巴 - Bā - to long for / to wish / to cling to / to stick to / sth that sticks / close to / next to / spread open
    爸爸 - bàba - father
    霸 - bà - hegemon / tyrant / lord / feudal chief / to rule by force / to usurp /
    拔 - bá - to pull up / to pull out / to draw out by suction / to select / to pick / to stand out (above level) / to surpass / to seize
    扒 - bā - to hold on to / to cling to / to dig up / to rake / to push aside / to climb / to pull out / to strip off

    Interesting that both in Chinese and Turkish ''baba'' means father, head of the family... Whereas in Bulgarian, bashta (баща) means father and baba (баба) means grandmother (same in other Slavic languages). It could be that in Bulgaria in past it was the mother earth who was the supreme God, and therefore the woman had significant role in society.

    巴山 - Bāshān - means ''ba'' in eastern Sichuan (China)

    山 - Shàn - mountain / hill / anything that resembles a mountain
    闪 - Shǎn - to dodge / to duck out of the way / shaken (by a fall) / to sprain / to pull a muscle / lightning / spark / a flash / to flash
    善 - shàn - good (virtuous) / benevolent / well-disposed / good at sth / to improve or perfect
    删 - shān - to delete
    扇 - shān - to fan / to slap sb on the face
    扇 - shàn - an / sliding, hinged or detachable flat part of sth / classifier for doors, windows

    杀 - shā - to kill / to murder / to fight / to weaken or reduce / to smart (dialect) / to counteract / (used after a verb) extremely
    刹 - shā - to brake
    煞 - shā - to terminate / to cut short / to squeeze / to tighten / to reduce / extremely

    山 - means mountain

    In Bulgarian we also have the expression of ''bash (баш)'' meaning great, big ... thus ''bashta (баща)'' (a father) will mean great, big father

    We also have common expression of ''bashtin (бащин)'' an adjective meaning home, or something that belong to you - like your father's home

    the character ''山'' visually resembles cyrillic letters ''Ш, ш'' and ''Щ, щ''

    this relates father and mountain which literally means that the mountain is your father, or like in paganism that the supreme god is mother earth / mountain; the mountain is also a protection like the father protects his family

    爬山 - páshān - to climb a mountain / to mountaineer / hiking / mountaineering

    In Bulgarian we use word ''pasha'' (паша) meaning pasturage and is usually used as a verb. to take the animals for grazing/feeding in the fields/mountain

    毒殺 - dúshā - kill by by poisoning = dusha (душа) to kill, suffocate (in Bulgarian)

    dusha (душа) also means ''a soul'' in Bulgarian, or duh (дух) ''a spirit''

    獨 - dú - lone / independent / single / sole / only
    堵 - dǔ - to stop up / (to feel) stifled or suffocated / wall / classifier for walls
    渡 - dù - to cross / to pass through / to ferry

    都 - dū - capital city / metropolis
    都會 - dūhuì - society / community / city / metropolis
    都市 - dūshì - city / metropolis


    八仙 - Bā Xiān - the Eight Immortals

    仙山 - xiānshān - mountain of Immortals

    the ''山'' character is repeated twice here ... so its meaning is both ''mountain'' and ''immortal''


    八仙 - Bā Xiān - the Eight Immortals

    仙山 - xiānshān - mountain of Immortals

    the ''山'' character is repeated twice here ... so its meaning is both ''mountain'' and ''immortal''

    If we look at the Rozette from Pliska (Bulgaria)

    we can see signs similar to ''仙山''

    the beam under the Sun starts with a cross from the bottom followed by another sign both resembling ''仙'' if we look it upside down meaning ''immortality''. Right at the center there is the same sign which if looked upside down resembles ''山''.

    In conclusion, the rozete has 7 beams and one central sign in the middle, together they make up the eight immortals


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    and my reply:

    blagodarim (thank you). This is very interesting.

    The chinese say that all knowledge was brought to china from the north by white people. So i am not at all surprised that you are finding these similarities. If you are interested in the far eastern areas look at ainu people of Japan. They are the remnants of these white Europeans who reached the end of Asia and wend down into Japan. Did they stop at the end of Asia or did they continue into America? Archaeology, linguistics and genetics say that they continued, but this is another story for another time. :)
    Interesting that both in Chinese and Turkish ''baba'' means father, head of the family... Whereas in Bulgarian, bashta (баща) means father and baba (баба) means grandmother (same in other Slavic languages). It could be that in Bulgaria in past it was the mother earth who was the supreme God, and therefore the woman had significant role in society.

    In the old time the words for mother and father were:

    babo - father, grandfather (still preserved in bosnian dialect) and baba - mother, grandmother.
    Babo was the name of the central obelisk in the stone circle. I presume then that the circle stones were baba. Circle is also the mother and the main obelisk is the father. These are progenitors, fertility related names.
    Bas, bash means the one, the top, the head, the hand, the one which rules and the way he rules and has to do with power not reproduction. It is synonymous with babo (father) because of the power the father had in the family. In Serbian we say "otac je glava porodice" - father is the head of the family.
    this relates father and mountain which literally means that the mountain is your father, or like in paganism that the supreme god is mother earth / mountain; the mountain is also a protection like the father protects his family

    Not surprised with this at all. The power of father (jang) is to rise :) and expand, and the power of mother (jin) is to sink and absorb.

    Mountain, land, sky, up - father
    Lakes, sea, water, down - mother
    This still exists in both Slavic (Indo european, R1a) and Chinese philosophy and religion.

    It is interesting to note that in Taoist philosophy, rivers were considered male aspect of water, the yang in yin.

    Spiral represents lake, still water and is the symbol of yin.

    The leftward spiral (starting from the center) represents absorption and drawing in, contracting towards the center.


    The rightward spiral (starting from the center) represents growth, expansion, evolution, slow movement outward in all directions like ripples on the water.


    The wavy line (river) is the symbol of yang in yin, the water which moves, which can penetrate, which carries, violently expands outwards away from the center and out of the circle.


    This was drilled into me by my kung fu teacher as the most important thing to understand in water style martial arts.

    By the way the spiral and the wavy line together describe helix. In vinca, spiral and wavy line are represented as two parts of the same thing and only later were they separated:

    We also have common expression of ''bashtin (бащин)'' an adjective meaning home, or something that belong to you - like your father's home

    When you think about it father's property is mother. Mother is where babies grow after father plants them in. Bašta (pronounced bashta) is garden in Serbian. This is the place where food grows. Bashtina is father's property, both wives and land, things where things grow. So fathers, bashas plant seeds in bashtina....
    毒殺 - dúshā - kill by by poisoning = dusha (душа) to kill, suffocate (in Bulgarian)

    dušnik (pronounced dushnik) is windpipe in serbian
    ugušiti (serbian), udušiti (croatian) - to suffocate, to strangle but also to extinguish the flame as in fire. Soul is compared to a flame so here we have the link again.
    dusha (душа) also means ''a soul'' in Bulgarian, or duh (дух) ''a spirit''

    This is a very interesting word which again comes from this old european language. In Irish we have these words:

    dùchas - homeland, place of origin, inheritance, instinct, nature, (soul?)
    Duchasach - hereditary ruler, leader of the tribe
    Duchais - local, from here, one of us, indigenous

    This is where Duke comes from. The origin of duke is given as Indo European of course:

    But the origin is the same as dusha and dùchas (soul, core , center, pillar).

    In Serbian we have a word "duh" which means spirit, essence, ghost. This word is the word which stands between dusha and dùchas: dusha, duh, duchas.

    In Montenegro we have area called Duklja.

    There is also a personal name Duka.

    I believe that, as modern genetic research is telling us, some of the "Indo europeans" or just "European" people went east in 4th millennium bc and reached China via the northern steppe where they formed the ruling caste like everywhere else they went and transmitted old European knowledge in process.

    For the end, believe or not i have found the word for bus and busen (bush and tuft of grass, sod, greensward) in Irish but it had miraculously morphed from:

    Serbian: bus, busen (bush, small bush)
    Irish: dos, dosan (bush, small bush)

    Source: Foclôoir Gaeilge - Bôearla by Niall. O'Donaill

    How did that happen i have no idea. But this proves two things: that the whole set of words are foreign to gaelic, and that grim's law has many holes.

    When you look at English Irish dictionaries you get this:

    bush: tor, tom, mangach, bhacaigh, díthreabh

    So nowhere near bus, or indeed dos. So dos and dosan, is just another example of mispronunciation of foreign words bus and busen or bos bosen, which were incorporated into Gaelic.

    I hope you are finding this interesting.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Modern Irish parish boundaries have their roots in ancient history, and are generally based on the old Irish Tuatha system under which the land was owned and run by an extended family system and ruled over by a chieftain elected from the family. The Tuatha in turn would form part of the greater kingdom whose territories are represented by today's diocesan boundaries. In ancient Ireland of Tuatha de Danaan, Chieftains and Kings were originally said to be elected.
    Early Irish law recognized a number of degrees of agnatic kinship, based on a belief that there was common male ancestor. The closest kin group that is defined is gelfine (bright-kin)—descendants of a common grandfather (including the grandfather's relationships to his descendants and his children). This is followed by the derbfine (certain-kin)—descendants of a common great grandfather, iarfine (after-kin)—descendants of a common great great grandfather, and the indfine (end-kin), all of which contain the old Irish word for kin or family, fine.[51] The derbfine is, by far, the kin-group most commonly mentioned.[52]
    One member of the kin-group was its leader, known either as ágae fine (pillar of the family) or cenn fine (head [literally] of the family). He apparently was a senior member selected from the kin-group based on various qualifications. One of his main duties was to take responsibility for members of the kin-group, acting as a surety for some of the actions of members, making sure debts are paid (including for murder). If the member could not be made to pay, the fee was normally be paid by members of the kin. He was also responsible for unmarried women after the death of their fathers.[53]
    As mentioned above, the actions of a member could require other kin to pay a fine. However, in certain cases the kin-group could refuse liabilities, although in some cases only after they been proclaimed as a non-member, which might occur if the member did not carry out his responsibilities to the kin. One particularly heinous crime in early Irish law was fingal (kin-slaying), because it was against a group that had some right to trust. The killer had to give up their kin-land, but was still liable for fines incurred by other members of the kin.[54] An undutiful son might also be excluded from certain kin rights as well, especially as sons of a living father generally did not have significant rights of legal actions except as permitted by the father.[55]

    The equivalent of gelfine in early medieval Serbia was "zadruga". In Serbia untill the mid 20th century people in villages still lived in extended family groups called "zadruga".Other terms used were "hiža" or "kuća" meaning house with adjective "velika" meaning big or "jaka" meaning strong. Zadruga consisted of grandparents, their sons and their families. The grandfather was the head of the extended family. This would be a type of extended family unit that would sometimes consist of over 100 individuals. All the property was owned by the family and the only personal property was what was on ones person. This would be an extended family group that, i believe, would own one of the "ring forts" in the old times as it would posses enough strength to build it and support it. In south of Serbia, where I come from, these family groups lived in enclosed family compounds and these compounds still exist today.

    Please note that the description of the leader of the extended family was identical in Irish and Serbian: the head of the family ("glava porodice" in Serbian) or pillar of the family ("stub porodice" in Serbian).
    A clan is a group of people united by actual or perceived kinship and descent. Even if lineage details are unknown, clan members may be organized around a founding member or apical ancestor. The kinship-based bonds may be symbolical, whereby the clan shares a "stipulated" common ancestor that is a symbol of the clan's unity.
    From ancient times Irish society was organised around traditional kinship groups or clans....Under Brehon Law the leaders of Irish clans were appointed by their kinsmen as custodians of the clan and were responsible for maintaining and protecting their clan and its property...

    ...Related Irish clans often belong to larger groups, sometimes called tribes, such as the Dál gCais, Uí Néill, Uí Fiachrach, and Uí Maine. Recently, the late Edward MacLysaght...

    ...Often, clans are thought of as based on blood kinship alone; in fact Irish clans would be better thought of as akin to the modern-day corporation.[5] Their ruling structure, whether ruled by a single lord or a council, changed according to needs and the qualities of their membership. As with a modern corporation, the power of clans grew and shrank. Once-powerful clans could in time decline in stature and be amalgamated into once-smaller ones. How this "merger" would be dealt with would be a matter of negotiation based on the respective power of each party. Consequently, Irish clans were composed of those who were related by blood but also by those who were adopted and fostered into the clan as well as those who joined the clan for strategic reasons such as safety or combining of lands and resources....
    In the distant past the term tuath signified a clan or tribal family. In later times it came to mean a unit of territory namely the ancestral or patrimonial lands of a tribe or tribal grouping. The tuath could be described as the smallest unit of land over which a local taoiseach or clan chief exercised control.

    In Serbia and among other Slavs, multiple extended families with a common ancestor formed a "rod" - clan. Several clans formed a "pleme" - tribe.
    Early Slav society is often said to have been egalitarian and based around family clans, as noted by Procopius description of Slavic “democracy”. No individual held permanent power; however, brave and influential chiefs would arise during periods of conflict. When the conditions which brought them to power subsided, so too did their power. A slow process of consolidation occurred between the 7th and 9th centuries. During this period, the previously uniform Slav cultural area formed into more discrete zones. Various Slavic groups were to be influenced by more 'advanced' neighbouring cultures such as Byzantium, the Khazars, Vikings and the Carolingians, although these processes should not be necessarily thought to be unidirectional.[94]
    Gradually, there developed increasing evidence of differentiation of status within the organizations, leading to class divisions and the development of centralized socio-political organizations. Perhaps, the first rudiments of higher organizations were temporary pan-tribal warrior associations. We have the greatest evidence for this in the Danubian area, where various barbarian elements organized around military chiefs for the purpose of raiding Byzantine territory and defending themselves against Avars.[95] Gradually, a higher degree of social stratification developed- that of a chiefdom, associated with the development of inherited inequality in personal status and centralization of power. Chiefdoms often contained fortified sites to back up their authority, a feature first seen in west Slavic areas. The chief was supported by a retinue of high-status warriors who owed their positions to the chief. As chiefdoms grew powerful and expanded, centres of subsidiary power were created, ruled by lesser chiefs. It is difficult to draw the line between the powerful chiefs of "developed chiefdoms" and the princes who ruled centralized Medieval "states". By the mid-9th century, Slavic elite attained a high level of sophistication. They wore luxurious clothing, rode on horseback, hunted with falcons and travelled with a retinue of soldiers.[96]

    Settlements were not uniformly distributed, but tended to form clusters separated by areas where settlement density falls.[100] The clustering was a result of the expansion of single settlements. These 'settlement cells' were therefore linked by family or clan relationships. Settlement cells formed the basis of the simplest form of territorial organization, known as a zupa in South Slavic, or opole in Polish. For example, Primary Chronicle noted that “the men of the Polanie lived each with his own clan in his own place”. There were several such zupa containing the territorial confines of individual clans, which together formed the known tribes. “The complex processes initiated by the Slav expansion and subsequent demographic and ethnic consolidation culminated in the formation of tribal groups, which later coalesced to create state which form the framework of the ethnic make-up of modern eastern Europe”.
    The Slavic population lived basically from farming and livestock raising and was organized into territorial communes whose basic unit was the family. The communes were headed by tribal leaders who, in turn, were supported by their retinues (druzhyny). During the Old Slavic period the Slavs of the Upper Tisza Region lived in what might be called the stage of military democracy. At the end of the eighth and in the early ninth centuries political structures in the form of tribal unions began to develop, centered around protected hill forts such as Sarisske Sokolovce, Smizany, Zemplin, Brekov, Uzhhorod, Vary, and Solotvyno. Some of these had already been established by the earlier Thracian and Celtic settlers but reinforced by the Slavs with earthen ramparts, moats, and palisades; others were built anew. The Slavic tribal unions continued to exist until the creation of early medieval states throughout central and eastern Europe.
    The basic social unit was the nuclear family, consisting of parents and their children, which had to fit in a dwelling area of several to 25 square meters. The big family, a patriarchal, multi-generational group of related families, a kin or clan, was of declining importance during the discussed period. A larger group was needed in the past (5th–7th centuries) for forest clearing and burning undertakings, when farming communities had to shift from location to location; in the 8th-century mature—settled phase of agriculture, a family was sufficient to take care of their arable land.[54] A concept of agricultural land ownership was gradually developing, being at this point a matter of family, not individual prerogative. Several or more clan territories were grouped into a neighborhood association, or "opole", which established a rudimentary self-government. Such community was the owner of forested land, pastures, bodies of water and within it the first organizing around common projects and related development of political power took place. A big and resourceful opole could become, by extending its possessions, a proto-state entity vaguely referred to as the tribe.[55] The tribe was the top level of this structure, containing several opoles and controlling a region of several hundred up to about 1500 square kilometers, where internal relationships were arbitrated and external defense organized.[46]
    A general assembly of all tribesmen present took care of the most pressing of issues (Thietmar of Merseburg wrote in the early 11th century of the Veleti, Polabian Slavs, that their assembly kept deliberating till everybody agreed), but this "war democracy" was gradually being replaced by a government system in which the tribal elders and rulers had the upper hand. This development facilitated the coalescing of tribes into great tribes, some of which under favorable conditions would later become tribal states. The communal and tribal democracy, with self-imposed contributions by the community members, survived in small entities and local territorial subunits the longest; on a larger scale it was being replaced by the rule of able leaders and then dominant families, ultimately leading inevitably to hereditary transition of supreme power, mandatory taxation, service etc.[56] When social and economic evolution reached this level, the concentration of power was facilitated and made possible to sustain by parallel development of a professional military force (called at this stage "drużyna") at the ruler's or chief's disposal.[46][57]

    The territory ruled or administered by a voivode is known as a voivodeship. In the English language, the title is often translated as "prince" or "duke". In Slavic terminology, the rank of a voivode is considered equal of that of a German Herzog. A Voivode was often considered to be an assistant of the Knyaz. During military actions voivode was in charge of a conscripted army that consisted of local population, voj (voi); while knyaz had its own regular military formation, druzhina...
    The term derives from Slavic voi or vojsko (militia) + vodi (to lead), and thus originally meant warlord (see Voyi)...
    The tradition of electing a voivode is very old and dates back to the times of the early Slavs. Each tribe gathered at a veche (congregation) to elect its own voivode. In war, he was entitled to lead the army. When the war was over, the power reverted to the legitimate peacetime ruler — be it the veche or a prince.
    By the end of 8th century, the Slavic tribes established the first organised states in Central and Eastern Europe. The new situation demanded a more flexible command over the state, especially during the conflicts with Turkic, Baltic and German peoples. At that time, the power of the voivode was in most cases extended to include civil command and, in some instances, to religious authority. The chiefs of the tribes, princes and hospodars, delegated part of their authority to lower-ranking voivodes, while retaining the title of highest voivode and the positions of high priest and supreme judge.
    With the creation of permanent Slavic states in Kievan Rus', in Bohemia and Poland, the highest authority was passed to dukes and princes. In Kievan Rus', these came from the Varangian nobles (Rurik Dynasty), while in Bohemia (Přemyslids) and Poland (Piast Dynasty) they were of local origin. The basis of the power of a prince was his band of warriors or druzhina. Initially a small group of professional soldiers, the druzhina grew in order to control the vast areas under authority of the prince. In time, the need to split the army into several units became clear and the commander of such a unit was called prince's voivode.
    The highest ranking of such voivodes formed the princes' courts, while others commanded the troops in distant towns and served as advisors to the prince's delegates. In medieval Russia voyevoda was the governor of a border fortress or town. The rank was abolished by Peter the Great in the mid-18th century.

    This Druzina, the professional army of Slavic tribal chiefs has its counterpart in the Irish Fianna:
    Fianna (singular fian) were small, semi-independent warrior bands in Irish mythology and Scottish mythology, most notably in the stories of the Fenian Cycle, where they are led by Fionn mac Cumhaill. They are based on historical bands of landless young men in early medieval Ireland known as kerns....Geoffrey Keating, in his 17th-century History of Ireland, says that during the winter the fianna were quartered and fed by the nobility, during which time they would keep order on their behalf, but during the summer, from Beltaine to Samhain, they were obliged to live by hunting for food and for pelts to sell.[3]
    In the most ancient time of the foundation of the ruling government in Serbia there was almost no court order since the court life was not developed. The life of a ruler differed very little from that of his compatriots. As there was no real court, there could be no court glow, titles and ceremonies.
    It was not until the 12th century that it was possible to follow the development of the nobility in Serbia, which, in the beginning, was very similar to that of the Venetian’s and Byzantine’s. With the stabilization of the government, the court order and customs were gradually modeling, thanks also to the fact that young men from well-to-do families were sent to Constantinople where they familiarized themselves with the solemn court glow and ceremonies.
    In the most ancient period, the state ruler held a title of Župan (district prefect; Zhupan) or Veliki Župan (Grand Zhupan). These titles originated from the period when one person ruled a tribe or district, respectively, that is a limited area. When districts united, the first Serbian state was founded, and its ruler held the title of Župan or Veliki Zupan, respectively. However, at that time the idea of a state was not firmly established. It is clear from a number of evidences that by the end of the Middle Ages the term “state” simply referred to ”zemlja” (“land”) or often “zemlja otačastva mi” (“a land of my fatherhood”), “od otaca mojih” (“of my fathers”). This is also apparent from the Legal Code of Emperor Stefan Dušan. Every person of noble birth was simply Gospodar (Master). The naming practice was not developed(* and there was no need for coats of arms. Later, the titles of Knez (Prince) and Kralj (King) originated from the above stated titles

    So the equivalent of o local king in Ireland was a Župan, a clan leader in Serbia. The equivalent of the Elected High King in Ireland was Veliki Župan (Grand Zhupan), which later became hereditary kingly title.

    So both Irish and Slavs basically lived in a kind of a "military democracy" based around family, clan and tribe. Here you can read about the Slavic version of this "military democracy" which basically did not change since at least Bronze Age until late medieval time. This is Florin Curta writing about Slavic society in general in the sixth century. Serbian society was the same in 14th and 15th century, and some say it is still the same today :):
    The end of the sixth century was a period of increasing competition among Sclavene leaders. The author of the Strategikon knew that there were many Sclavene "kings," "always at odds with each other" (XI 4.30), a useful political detail for any Roman general who may have found himself in a position to make war against any of them. What were the stakes of this competition, we can only guess. The archaeological evidence, however, suggests that shortly before and after 600 A.D. symbols of personal identity came into higher demand. At this time bow fibulae found in Romania (Figure 4), Crimea, and Mazuria display the greatest number of links in their ornamental patterns. Long-distance connections signalized by those links, as well as the display of different patterns on various groups of bow fibulae point to social competition.54 If, as suggested, the intrasite distribution of artifacts on sixth- and seventh-century sites can be associated with competitive feasting, which was a typical feature for big-man leadership, we may be able to visualize some aspects of this competition. War, however, was the overwhelming concern of those whom the author of the Strategikon viewed as unable to fight in ordered battle, but who, nevertheless, were extremely skillful at ambushing Roman troops. That Slavic society was geared up for warfare is evident from the significant number of weapons, especially arrow- and spear-heads, which have been found on sixth- to seventh-century sites in Romania, Moldova, and Ukraine. This further suggests that the evidence of destruction by fire occasionally found on those sites is the result of inter-group conflicts. After all, as the author of the Strategikon observed, in the Slavic "democracy," "nobody is willing to yield to another" (XI 4.14)

    So basically Slavs, like the Irish, were so rooted in family, cept, clan, tribe organisation, that they were living in a state of constant inter tribal warfare.

    Slavic inability to unite allowed the external powers, like Rome, Greeks and later christian church and the Franks, the Danes, the Germans to convert, absorb and conquer one Slavic clan at the time and use them against their neighbors. This is why we so often see two neighboring Slavic tribes fighting each other as parts of two foreign lead powers.

    We see the exact same thing in Ireland, where inter tribal and inter clan warfare helped foreigner to come in and stay in aligned with various Irish Clans.

    Why am I talking about this?

    This similar social organisation in early medieval Irish and Slavic lands lead to similar explosion in ring fort and lake fort (crannog) building. If you are in a constant state of war with your neighbors, you need a handy place of refuge. You would expect to see similar forts being built in Anglo Saxon or Scandinavian lands because they too lived in tribal societies. But it turns out they didn't, not until 10th century. What emerges from archaeological and historical evidence is very very interesting: only the Irish and the Slavs built these early medieval forts??? Why?

    Building these forts requires a specialized skills and is not something anyone can do. You can say that these skills are not so difficult to acquire, and any tribe faced with the same problem of how to build a fort will come up with the same solution and actually build a fort. But what we can see from archaeological evidence is that that is not the case. It seems that the wood working skills required to build these complex wooden structures were only possessed by the Irish and the Slavs. Was this knowledge passed to the Irish and the Slavs by a common ancestor? Quite possibly it was.

    I will write about the forts in the next post.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Ringforts are circular fortified settlements that were mostly built during the Iron Age (800 BCE–400 CE), although some were built as late as the Early Middle Ages (up until ~1000 CE). They are found in Northern Europe, especially in Ireland....Ringforts come in many sizes and may be made of stone or earth. Earthen ringforts would have been marked by a circular rampart (a bank and ditch), often with a stakewall. Both stone and earthen ringforts would generally have had at least one building inside.
    In Irish language sources they are known by a number of names: ráth (anglicized rath), lios (anglicized lis; cognate with Cornish lis[1]), caiseal (anglicized cashel), cathair (anglicized caher or cahir; cognate with Welsh caer, Cornish and Breton ker) and dún (anglicized dun or doon; cognate with Welsh and Cornish din).[2][3] The ráth and lios was an earthen ringfort; the ráth being the enclosing bank and the lios being the open space within.[2][3] The caiseal and cathair was a stone ringfort.[2][3] The term dún was usually used for any stronghold of importance, which may or may not be ring-shaped.[2]
    In Ireland, over 40,000 sites have been identified as ringforts and it is thought that at least 50,000 ringforts existed on the island.[4] They are common throughout the country, with a mean density of just over one ringfort within any area of 2 km². It is likely that many have been destroyed by farming and urbanization. However, many hitherto unknown ringforts have been found thanks to early Ordnance Survey maps, aerial photography, and the archaeological work that has accompanied road-building.
    To the Scandinavians the territory of the eastern Slavs was known as the land of forts (Gardarike). This was an apt description of the Slav lands as a whole, particularly in the region south of the Baltic. The forts were the focal points of settlement and economic, social religious and cultural life. More than two thousand of them survive on the plan between the Vistula and the Elbe. The areas of settlement that grew up around these forts varied in size. Some consisted of between five and twenty villages and were know as Opole in Polish, Gefilde in German and as civitates in Latin. The inhabitants of such communities were bound together by common economic relations. The eastern Slavs and the Baltic tribes had a similar organizational pattern. Several of these units taken together were know as regiones in the Latin chronicles and often formed the territorial base of a tribe or clan. Physically they were cultivated clearings of varying extent surrounded by primeval forests.

    The Lake settlement of Behren-Lubchin, as it may have appeared in the eleventh century. Circular in plan, like Tornow and many other forts, it was given added security by being surrounded by water. Access was only by a long bridge; the building of these bridges, several of which have been excavated, was one of the most remarkable achievements of Slav technology.

    Grad, gard, gord, gorod, hrad is a word that means fort in Slavic languages.
    A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.). This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5] The most explicit derivatives from grad are the Croatian word Gradjanski (Croatian: Građanski) and the Russian word Grazhdanye (Russian: Граждане) both means citizens.

    So Slavs called their towns gard, gord and Germanic people called them "burgwall or Slavic burgwall". The mention of "the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.)" is just an attempt to explain how come a "German" town like Stuttgart has a Slavic name. Stuttgart actually lies in the middle of the early medieval poliabian territory so it was most likely founded and named by Slavs. In reality every town that has Gart or Gard in it's name is considered to be Slavic:
    Slavic names: Prior to the medieval Ostsiedlung, Slavic languages like Polabian, Sorbian, Pomeranian, and Slovenian were spoken in the eastern parts of the Holy Roman Empire. The German settlers and administration in many cases adopted existing Wendish placenames, for example Rostock (from Old Polabian rostok, "river fork"), Dresden (from Sorbian Drežďany), and Berlin (possibly from a Polabian word meaning "Swamp"). For the same reason, many German placenames ending in -anz (e.g. Ummanz), -gard (e.g. Burg Stargard), -gast (e.g. Wolgast), -itz (e.g. Lancken-Granitz), -ow (e.g. Gützkow), and -vitz or -witz (e.g. Malschwitz) have Slavic roots. Due to spelling and pronunciation changes over the centuries, the original Wendish term in most cases is not preserved. Also, some placenames combine a German with a Wendish term (e.g. Altentreptow). The German suffix -au can be related to the Slavic -ow and -ov when derived from the Old German spelling (u= w =double u; e.g. Prenzlau was earlier spelled Prenzlow).

    The proof that Germans never called their forts gards is in the fact that they renamed Slavic gards to burgs after they conquered them:
    Mecklenburg Castle was a medieval castle and a residential capital of the Nakonid and Nikloting dynasties of the Obotrites. It was located just south of the modern village Dorf Mecklenburg, seven[1] kilometres south of the Bay of Wismar in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany. The only remnants of the ruined castle are parts of an earthen wall. Some scholars have associated Mecklenburg with the medieval trading emporium Reric.[2]

    The travelling merchant Ibrahim Ibn Jacub described Mecklenburg as “Nakon’s Castle” in 965. By 995 it was documented as Michelenburg[3] or Mikelenburg, meaning large castle in Low German. In Latin, it was known as Magnopolis. The later duchy and region of Mecklenburg derives its name from the castle. The probable Slavic name, Veligrad also (“great” or “large castle”).[3] was commemorated in a new Schloss Weligrad built between 1896 and 1898 for Duke John Albert of Mecklenburg.

    Scandinavians called the land of the Slavs Gardariki - land of Gards, forts. This was obviously because neither Germans nor Scandinavians had any forts during early medieval times.
    Garðaríki (anglicized Gardariki or Gardarike) or Garðaveldi is the Old Norse term used in medieval times for the states of Kievan Rus'. The shortened form Garðar also refers to the same country, as does the general term for "East", Austr, with its various derivations: Austrvegr ("Eastern way"), Austrlönd ("Eastern lands") and Austrríki ("Eastern realm").
    The meaning of the word Garðaríki is usually interpreted as "the kingdom of cities", or "the realm of towns"...

    So during early medieval time two peoples, Irish and Slavs, with almost identical social organisation, undergo a major ring fort and lake fort building which is not found anywhere else in Europe at that time. I believe that this is quite interesting. Here are few more Slavic gards, gords, ring forts:

    Radus, perfectly restored Slavic ring fort (gard)

    List of Slavic ring forts (gards)

    Here is a picture of a restored Slavic ring fort:


    Here is a picture of a restored Irish ring fort:


    Do you see any difference?

    Here is what wikipedia says about ring forts

    Did you notice that there is no mention of Slavic ring forts?

    Here is what wikipedia says about circular ramparts:

    Again no mention of Slavic ring forts.

    But you will find these "viking ring forts"

    Denmark (Viking ring fortresses)

    Trelleborg (Slagelse)



    It is interesting to see that Vikings built ring forts as well. But why only 6?

    Here is an example of a "viking ring fort", Aggersborg:


    This is what is said about these "viking ringforts":
    Trelleborg is a collective name for six Viking Age circular forts, located in Denmark and the southern part of modern Sweden. Five of them have been dated to the reign of the Harold Bluetooth of Denmark (died 986). The fort in Borgeby[1] has been dated to the vicinity of 1000 AD, so it is possible that it too, was built by the same king. The new one discovered in Norwey is dated to late 900s AD as well.

    So all the "viking ring forts" were built during the reign of Harold Bluetooth of Denmark or during the reign of his descendants. Who was this Harold Bluetooth?
    Harald "Bluetooth" Gormsson (Old Norse: Haraldr blátǫnn Gormsson, Danish: Harald Blåtand Gormsen) (probably born c. 935) was a King of Denmark and Norway. He was the son of King Gorm the Old and of Thyra Dannebod. He died in 985 or 986 having ruled as King of Denmark from c. 958 and King of Norway for a few years probably around 970. Some sources say his son Sweyn Forkbeard forcibly deposed him as King.

    Harald had the Jelling stones erected to honour his parents.[2] The Encyclopædia Britannica considers the runic inscriptions as the most well known in Denmark.[3] The biography of Harald Bluetooth is summed up by this runic inscription from the Jelling stones:
    "King Harald bade these memorials to be made after Gorm, his father, and Thyra, his mother. The Harald who won the whole of Denmark and Norway and turned the Danes to Christianity."

    During his reign, Harald oversaw the reconstruction of the Jelling runic stones, and numerous other public works. Some believe these projects were a way for him to consolidate economic and military control of his country. Ring forts were built in five strategic locations: Trelleborg on Sjælland, Nonnebakken on Fyn, Fyrkat in central Jylland, Aggersborg near Limfjord, and a second Trelleborg near the modern town of Trelleborg in Scania in present-day Sweden. All five fortresses had similar designs: "perfectly circular with gates opening to the four corners of the earth, and a courtyard divided into four areas which held large houses set in a square pattern."[11] A sixth Trelleborg of similar design, located at Borgeby, in Scania, has been dated to about 1000 and may also have been built by King Harald.
    He constructed the oldest known bridge in southern Scandinavia, the 5 meters wide, 760 meters long Ravninge Bridge at Ravninge meadows.
    While quiet prevailed throughout the interior, he turned his energies to foreign enterprises. He came to the help of Richard the Fearless of Normandy in 945 and 963, while his son conquered Samland, and after the assassination of King Harald Greycloak of Norway, managed to force the people of that country into temporary subjugation to himself.
    The Norse sagas present Harald in a rather negative light. He was forced twice to submit to the renegade Swedish prince Styrbjörn the Strong of the Jomsvikings- first by giving Styrbjörn a fleet and his daughter Thyra, the second time by giving up himself as hostage, along with yet another fleet. When Styrbjörn brought this fleet to Uppsala to claim the throne of Sweden, Harald broke his oath and fled with his Danes to avoid facing the Swedish army at the Battle of Fýrisvellir.
    As a consequence of Harald's army having lost to the Germans at the Danevirke in 974, he no longer had control of Norway, and Germans settled back into the border area between Scandinavia and Germany. They were driven out of Denmark in 983 by an alliance of Obodrite soldiers and troops loyal to Harald, but soon after, Harald was killed fighting off a rebellion led by his son Swein. He is believed to have died in 986, although several accounts claim 985 as his year of death.

    So Harald united Danmark, Norway and south Baltic Slavic lands into one country. Does that mean that he fought the Slavs and Conquered them? Not really. He was allied with them as it is seen from the mention of Obodrites and the Danes fighting the Germans together. Of course Slavs were also fighting on the German side but that is understandable when we know what we know about the tribal organisation of the Slavic society. Harold also had a Slavic Obodrite princess as his second wife, so the alliance must have been quite strong:
    Tove of the Obotrites, also called Tova, Tofa or Thora, (10th century) was a Slavic princess and a Danish Viking Age queen consort, the spouse of King Harald I of Denmark. Thora (Tova) was the daughter of Prince Mistivir of the Obotrites. She married King Harald in 970.

    Tova was daughter of Obodrite king Mstivoj:

    Was this alliance between the Danes and the Obodrtes something new and temporary? No. It all started much Earlier as we can read in The origin of the Anglo Saxon race. There we can read that the Anglo Saxon Alliance was ethnically mixed and included Danes and Slavs. This link between the Danes and the Slavs probably started even Earlier as both were living in the same clan, tribal society where clan tribe alliances of mixed ethnic origin were completely normal. But This is what i managed to find about our friend Harald the father of Danmark and his clan's link with Obodrites Slavs:

    Harald Bluetooth,s mother was Thyra.

    Thyra's father was another Harald: Harald Klak Halfdansson. Is this Halfdansson half Dane? Actually it does.
    Harald 'Klak' Halfdansson (c. 785 – c. 852) was a king in Jutland (and possibly other parts of Denmark) around 812–814 and again from 819–827.[1]
    The identity of Harald's father is uncertain. He had at least three brothers. Anulo (d. 812), Ragnfrid (d. 814) and Hemming Halfdansson (d. 837).[2][3] An 837 entry in the Annales Fuldenses calls Hemming a son of Halfdan.[4] This is the only mention of their father in a primary source.

    The Royal Frankish Annals entries of 814 start with the death of Charlemagne. Louis the Pious became sole emperor and turned to diplomatic relations with other European powers. The Royal Annales then mention the continuation of the conflict among the Danes and that Harald Klak sought refuge in the court of Louis. "Heriold and Reginfrid, kings of the Danes, had been defeated and expelled from their kingdom the year before [813] by the sons of Godofrid, against whom they regrouped their forces and again made war. In this conflict Reginfid and the oldest son of Godofrid were killed. When this had come to pass, Heriold despaired of his cause, came to the emperor [Louis], and put himself under his protection. The emperor received him and told him to go to Saxony and to wait for the proper time when he would be able to give him the help which Heriold had requested."...The 815 entries of the Royal Annals focus on the campaign for restoring Harald to his throne. "The emperor [Louis] commanded that Saxons and Obodrites should prepare for this campaign, and twice in that winter the attempt was made to cross the Elbe. But since the weather suddenly turned and made the ice on the river melt, the campaign was held up. Finally, when the winter was over, about the middle of May, the proper time to begin the march arrived. Then all Saxon counts and all troops of the Obodrites, under orders to bring help to Heriold, marched with the imperial emissary Baldrich across the River Eider into the land of the Norsemen called Silendi....But the sons of Godofrid, who had raised against them a large army and a fleet of two hundred ships, remained on an island three miles of the shore and did not dare engage them.... "He [Louis] settled the affairs of the Slavs and of Heriold, and, leaving Heriold behind in Saxony, returned to his palace in Frankfurt."... Harald apparently continued operations against his rivals. An 817 entry of the Royal Annals reports "Because of the persistent aggression of Heriold, the sons of Godofrid, king of the Danes, also sent an embassy to the emperor [Louis], asked for peace, and promised to preserve it. This sounded more like hypocrisy than truth, so it was dismissed as empty talk and aid was given to Heriold against them"....A next attempt in 819, again with help from the Obotrites, met with more success and some kind of settlement seems to have been reached with the sons of Gudfred, since Harald was joint king with two of them in 821....In 823, tensions had appeared in Harald's relations with his co-rulers. Louis was asked to mediate....According to the Vita Ansgari by Rimbert, "After this it happened that a king named Heriold (Latin:Herioldus), who ruled over some of the Danes, was assailed by hatred and malignity, and was driven from his kingdom by the other kings of the same province....

    During the reign of Louis the Pious, the Frankish Empire had no effective fleet, and this made the coast of Frisia a weak point in the defense of his realm. The motivation for granting Harald a fief in Frisia possibly had to do with Harald committing himself to defending the Frisian coastline against future Viking raids. The center of his fief was located in northwestern Germany, west of Oldenburg. This may have been the first piece of Frankish territory given to a Dane.

    And so on it goes. So this particular Half Danish king was brought to power in Danmark by Obodrite - Saxon army under command of the Franks. And he has in return created first Frankish navy and has protected the Frankish coast from the "Vikings". Interesting.

    This is what is said for Harald'd brother Hemming Halfdansson:
    Hemming Halfdansson (died 837) was "of the Danish race, a most Christian leader".[1] He was probably a son of Halfdan, a leading Dane who became a vassal of Charlemagne in 807. He was probably related to the Danish royal family, as "Hemming" was one of their favoured names. The onomastic evidence includes the Danish king Hemming I (reigned 810–12) and then a Hemming II, who was recalled to Denmark from Francia by his brothers Harald Klak and Reginfrid after Hemming I's death. This Hemming was probably the same person as Hemming Halfdansson. He probably soon returned to Francia, since there is no evidence of him in Danish politics after he and his brothers were driven out by the sons of Godfrid in 813.[2]
    It is probable that Hemming was received by the Franks and granted Walcheren, a fortress in Frisia, as a benefice. It may have been held earlier by his father, it was certainly granted in 841 to the Danes Harald and Rorik. He, along with its Frankish count, Eccihard, died defending it from a Viking attack in 837.[3] Probably both Eccihard and Hemming were responsible for the defence of Frisia from the Vikings, as a capitulary of 821 refers to "the counts who are responsible for coastal defence". If so, Hemming appears to have been the superior, since Thegan of Trier in his Gesta Hludowici imperatoris, an account of the reign of Louis the Pious, names him first when recording the dead, followed by "another leader, Eccihard, and many of the emperor's nobles".[4] On the other hand, Hemming may have been a courtier sent by the emperor to aid the local leader, Eccihard.

    So there was a need to stress that he was of "Danish race" probably because he wasn't as his name says. He was a Frankish ally and died "defending Frisia from Viking attacks". Interesting. Danes fighting Vikings? All is not as it seems, it seems :)

    Let's see who this Half Dane was:
    Halfdan (floruit 782–807) was a leading person among the Danes and the first known Scandinavian to enter Frankish service. Onomastics links him to the Danish royal family since the name "Halfdan" was commonly employed both historically (as attested by the Annales Fuldenses under the year 873) and in the legendary royal lineage.[1]
    Halfdan was the envoy sent by King Sigfred to the court of the Frankish emperor Charlemagne in 782, as recorded in the Frankish chronicle Annales regni Francorum. An anonymous Saxon poet praising Charlemagne in Latin epic verse mentions Halfdan's commendation to the emperor in the year 807:[2]

    So this half Dane was the first known Scandinavian to enter Frankish service. So we have here Danes, Frisians, Slavs and Franks together in one alliance. By the way the term Scandinavian originally just meant the people living in Scane, today's Scania

    But who were the parents of this Half Dane? We don't know? In the List of legendary kings of Denmark

    ( we find this Halfdan:
    Halfdan (Old Norse: Halfdan, Old English: Healfdene, Medieval Latin: Haldānus, Proto-Norse: *Halbadaniz, "half Dane") was a late 5th and early 6th century legendary Danish king of the Scylding (Skjöldung) lineage, the son of king named Fróði in many accounts, noted mainly as the father to the two kings who succeeded him in the rule of Denmark, kings named Hroðgar and Halga in the Old English poem Beowulf and named Hróar and Helgi in Old Norse accounts.
    His name would in his own language, Proto-Norse, have been *Halbadaniz (meaning "Danish on only one side of the family").

    So if the half Dane kings were only half Danes what was the other part? Well considering that it is never mentioned where the none Dane part came from i can bet that it was Slavic. And if we see how much were Slavs involved in the affairs of this Danish dynasty this becomes completely obvious.

    So to recapitulate: Harald Bluetooth belongs to the dynasty of Half Danes and probably Half Slavs. His grandfather was brought to power in Danmark by Slavic army. Now Harald Bluetooth is again using Slavic army to take control of all the Danish and Norse lands.

    This is the territory controlled by Harald Bluetooth:


    The territory in the south Baltic is exactly the territory of the highest concentration of Gards. So if Harald and his Danes had Baltic Slavs as allies, and those Slavs were famous ring forts builders and built thousands of them, and if there are only 7 built in Scandinavia, all during the reign of Harald, maybe it is possible that Slavs built Scandinavian "viking ringforts" for Harald? We know they fought as allies? But were there any Slavs in Danemark during the reign of king Harald who could have built these "viking ringforts"? Yes there were and lots of them. Not only there was a sizable Slavic population living in Danemark and the rest of Scandinavia (I will not go into details about it here and now), but there is now evidence that the majority of king Haralds army consisted of Slavic mercenaries:
    As part of an international team of researchers, archaeologists at Aarhus University can reveal that a large part of Harold Bluetooth’s Viking army consisted of foreigners – possibly from Poland. (I say south Baltic in general)

    If Harald was using Slavic army in Scandinavia, then these Slavic solders built for themselves Slavic ring forts. Mystery solved. There are no "viking ringforts" in the Baltic, just Slavic ringforts.

    There were of course Anglo Saxon forts. They were:
    Motte-and-bailey castle

    A motte-and-bailey castle is a fortification with a wooden or stone keep situated on a raised earthwork called a motte, accompanied by an enclosed courtyard, or bailey, surrounded by a protective ditch and palisade. Relatively easy to build with unskilled, often forced labour, but still militarily formidable, these castles were built across northern Europe from the 10th century onwards, spreading from Normandy and Anjou in France, into the Holy Roman Empire in the 11th century.
    While quiet prevailed throughout the interior, he (Harald Bluetooth) turned his energies to foreign enterprises. He came to the help of Richard the Fearless of Normandy in 945 and 963. While quiet prevailed throughout the interior, he turned his energies to foreign enterprises. He came to the help of Richard the Fearless of Normandy in 945 and 963...

    So again Harald Bluetooth's Slavic army arrives in Normandy and soon afterwards gards and gords start appearing in north western Europe under the name Motte-and-bailey castle. There were no fortifications of this type there before.
    Burghal Hidage

    After his victory over the Danes at the Battle of Edington (878) and the departure of another Viking army from Fulham in 880, Alfred the Great set about building a system of fortified towns or forts, known as burhs in response to the Viking threat.[5] These burhs included former Roman towns (whose stone walls were repaired and perimeter ditches sometimes added), temporary forts and substantial new towns.[6]
    In the first half of the 10th century Alfred's son Edward the Elder and his successors made this type of construction a key element in their campaigns against the Vikings, who had been in control of much of Danelaw. This culminated in the eventual creation of a unified Kingdom of England.[6]
    In the event of Danish attacks, the provision of fortified towns, was a place of refuge for the Anglo-Saxon rural population who lived within a 24 km(15 mile) radius of each town. They also provided secure regional market centres and from around 973 the coinage was reminted every six or seven years by moneyers in about sixty of the burhs.[6]

    We know that Anglo Saxon alliance included Baltic Slavs, the same gord builders who built all the gords in South baltic. We also know that at the time when the first Burghals appeared in England the Half Danes were fighting other Danes, Swedes and Norse in Scandinavia, with various tribes of Baltic Slavs fighting on all sides. By the way, remember that Slavic burgwall was the Germanic name for Gords. The main Burghal building period falls again into the period during and after the 10th century, the same like Motte-and-bailey castles. I believe that some Slavs brought the knowledge of gard building to England. So it seems that ring forts (gards, gords) are a very specific Slavic development in north western Europe and probably England as well.

    Where did this tradition come from and how come the Slavs ended up being it's carriers? The answer is Lusatian culture. Let's have a look again at what Wikipedia says about Gords:
    A gord is a medieval Slavonic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.). This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5]
    Similar strongholds were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the people of the Lusatian culture (ca. 1300 BC – 500 BC), and later in the 7th - 8th centuries CE in modern-day Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and eastern Germany. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands or peninsulas.
    A typical gord was a group of wooden houses, built either in rows or in circles, surrounded by one or more rings of walls made of earth and wood, a palisade and/or moats. Some gords were ring-shaped, with a round, oval or occasionally polygonal fence or wall surrounding a hollow. Others, built on a natural hill or a man-made mound, were cone-shaped. Those with a natural defense on one side, such as a river or lake, were usually horseshoe-shaped.

    So between 1300 BC and 500 BC we have the same type of fortifications built in the same area by Lusatian culture. Look at the earliest dates. Remember when first hill forts arrived in Ireland and England?

    And here is Biskupin, one of Lusatian culture gords:


    The archaeological open air museum Biskupin is an archaeological site and a life-size model of an Iron Age fortified settlement in north-central (Wielkopolska) Poland (Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship). When first discovered it was thought to be early evidence of Slavic settlement but archaeologists later confirmed it belonged to the Biskupin group of the Lusatian culture. The excavation and the reconstruction of the prehistoric settlement has played an instrumental part in Polish historical consciousness.

    And here is an article about Biskupin from one of my favorite archaeological sites

    Can we in any way connect Lusatian culture from bronze age to the Slavs from early medieval time. A lot of people think we can:

    The location of the Slavic homeland has been the subject of significant debate. The Prague-Penkov-Kolochin complex of cultures of the 6th to 7th centuries CE are generally accepted to reflect the expansion of Slavic-speakers at that time.[62] Serious candidates for the core from which they expanded are cultures within the territories of modern Belarus, Poland, and Ukraine. The proposed frameworks are:

    1. Milograd culture hypothesis: The pre-Proto-Slavs (or Balto-Slavs) were the bearers of the Milograd culture (7th century BCE to 1st century CE) of northern Ukraine and southern Belarus.
    2. Chernoles culture hypothesis: The pre-Proto-Slavs were the bearers of the Chernoles culture (750–200 BCE) of northern Ukraine, and later the Zarubintsy culture (3rd century BCE to 1st century CE).
    3. Lusatian culture hypothesis: The pre-Proto-Slavs were present in north-eastern Central Europe since at least the late 2nd millennium BCE, and were the bearers of the Lusatian culture (1300–500 BCE), and later the Przeworsk culture (2nd century BCE to 4th century CE).
    4. Danube basin hypothesis: postulated by Oleg Trubachyov;[63] sustained at present by Florin Curta,[64] also supported by an early Medieval Slavic narrative source - Nestor's Chronicle

    I personally believe that there was not only one but multiple proto Slavic cultures spanning the extent of the R1a territory and that Lusatian culture was one of them becoming the root culture of Western Slavs. This is what we can read about Lusatian culture:
    The Lusatian culture existed in the later Bronze Age and early Iron Age (1300 BCE – 500 BCE) in most of today's Poland, parts of Czech Republic and Slovakia, parts of eastern Germany (where it is known as Lausitz, Latin: Lusatia) and parts of Ukraine. It covers the Periods Montelius III (early Lusatian culture) to V of the Northern-European chronological scheme.

    Burial was by cremation; inhumations are rare. The urn is usually accompanied by numerous, up to 40 secondary vessels. Metal grave gifts are sparse, but there are numerous hoards (e.g. Kopaniewo, Pomerania) that contain rich metalwork, both bronze and gold (hoard of Eberswalde, Brandenburg). Graves containing moulds, like at Bataune, Saxony or tuyeres attest the production of bronze tools and weapons at village level. The 'royal' tomb of Seddin, Brandenburg, Germany, covered by a large earthen barrow, contained Mediterranean imports like bronze-vessels and glass beads. Cemeteries can be quite large and contain thousands of graves.
    Well known settlements include Biskupin in Poland and Buch near Berlin. There are both open villages and fortified settlements (burgwall or grod) on hilltops or in swampy areas. The ramparts were constructed of wooden boxes filled with soil or stones.

    So Lusatian culture used cremation, which was only used by Slavic people. Lusatian culture was also a direct descendant from corded ware culture which was R1a (Slavic) genetic culture. The territory of the Lusatan culture was also in its later stage the place where we find tribe Lugii:
    The Lugii (or Lugi, Lygii, Ligii, Lugiones, Lygians, Ligians, Lugians, or Lougoi) were an ancient tribe attested in the book Germania by the Roman historian Tacitus. They lived in ca. 400 BC–300 AD in Central Europe, north of the Sudetes mountains in the basin of upper Oder and Vistula rivers, covering most of modern south and middle Poland (regions of Silesia, Greater Poland, Mazovia and Little Poland). Most archaeologists identify the Lugians with the Przeworsk culture. While probably initially Celtic-dominated, the Lugii were regarded as Germanic by the end of the 1st century.[1] The source of their power was control of the most important middle part of the Amber Road from Sambia at the Baltic Sea to the provinces of Roman Empire: Pannonia, Noricum and Raetia. A tribe of the same name, usually spelled as Lugi, inhabited the southern part of Sutherland in Scotland. Roman records sometimes identify the Lugii with the Vandals...
    The ethnic affiliation was subject of intense auto/allochtonic debate between German and mostly Polish historians before the Second World War. The former used to claim that the tribe was exclusively Germanic as the latter presented the counterargument that either the tribe was proto-Slavic or at least included proto-Slavic groups.
    According to the Slavonic hypotheses, the word Lugi may be a spelling for Slavonic лю΄дїе, meaning people. In modern Serbian, the word луг means "small forest". Thus the word Lugii could indicate "forest people". Serbs have many versions of this word in use today, and all relate to forest, wood and swamp land. There is a possibility that the Lusatian Sorbs, whose land in their own language and in Polish bears the name Łużyce, adjective łużycki, are among their descendants. The term Łużyce/łużycki is possibly akin to Lugii.
    Ancient writers simply regarded them to be part of the Germanians, or the inhabitants of the region of Germania,[4] which did not necessarily always coincide with speakers of the Germanic languages. The sub-tribal groups associated with them, such as the Helveconae, the Harii and the Buri, are indeed Germanic.
    Today, as the archaeological evidence such as cremation, which was characteristic to Slavs, has accumulated where the tribe are supposed to have settled, others claim that they were a compound tribe, or confederation of tribes of different ethnicity. Most scholars though agree that they could perhaps consist of a mixture of several groups, or take influence from several groups.

    So we have Lusatian culture, people called Lugii, both using cremation, both living at the same place one after another. Today in the same area we find Lusatian Serbs:
    Sorbs (Upper Sorbian: Serbja; Lower Sorbian: Serby; also known as Wends, Lusatian Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs) are a Western Slavic people of Central Europe living predominantly in Lusatia, a region on the territory of Germany and Poland. In Germany they live in the states of Brandenburg and Saxony. They speak the Sorbian languages (Wendish, Lusatian) - closely related[3] to Polish and Czech - officially recognized and protected as a minority language of Germany.

    So Lusatians, the first builders of gords during the period 1300 BCE – 500 BCE are also known as Sorbs (call themselves Sorbs). Why is this important? Because of this:


    Old Sarum (Latin: Sorviodunum) is the site of the earliest settlement of Salisbury, in England.

    Archaeological remains of rough stone tools suggest people have occupied the hilltop area of Old Sarum since Neolithic times (around 3000 BC).[1] There is evidence that early hunters and, later, farming communities occupied the site. A protective hill fort was constructed by the local inhabitants during the British Iron Age (around 500 BC) by creating enormous banks and ditches surrounding the hill. Numerous other hillforts of the same period can be found locally, including Figsbury Ring to the east and Vespasian's Camp to the north. The archaeologist Sir R.C. Hoare described it as "a city of high note in the remotest periods by the several barrows near it, and its proximity to the two largest stone circles in England, namely, Stonehenge and Avebury."[2]
    In the Roman occupation of Britain between AD 43 and AD 410 the site was a military station, strategically placed near the convergence of five important roads. The hill fort was marked on Roman roadmaps by the name of Sorviodunum. The name is believed to be derived from the Celtic language name for 'the fortress by a gentle river'.[3] In the Chronicle of the Britons,[4] the place is referred to as Caer Gradawc.

    Now Sorvio dunum means the fort, the town of Sorbs. Romans obviously just recorded the name of the town as it was at the time. In mixed communities the towns were often named after the particular tribe that built it and lived in it. So Sorbvio dunum was the town of the Sorbs, in the same way Singidunum was the town of the Singi.

    "The name is believed to be derived from the Celtic language name for 'the fortress by a gentle river'" is sad attempt to explain the name of the fort while at the same time ignoring the possibility that it was named after the original inhabitants of Sorviodunum. And the recorded "celtic" name shows exactly who built the town. In the Chronicle of the Britons,[4] the place is referred to as Caer Gradawc.

    In the Welsh language, caer means "fortress", "fort" or "citadel". Gradawc actually comes from Grad, Hrad, Gord, Gard meaning Slavic ring fort. So maybe the place was originally just known as town. Gradac is used in Slavic languages as a name for fortified city: Gradac in Croatia, Gradec (Old Zagreb in Croatia), Graz (Gradec) Austria...

    But we don't find Sorviodunum just in England. We find it in Austia as well.

    Sorviodunum (Straubing)

    The area of Straubing has been continuously settled since the Neolithic. The conquest by the Romans in 16-14 BC had a dramatic impact on the whole region. Even today many traces of the 400-year Roman occupation can be found; for example, the famous 'Römerschatz' (roman treasure) which is shown in the Gäubodenmuseum. Sorviodurum, as the Romans called it, was an important military support base.
    Sorviodunum was a settlement of the tribe Runicates, Rucantii a sub tribe of the Vindelici, acc. to possible interpretation of Tropaeum Alpium inscription. Named as Raeti by Strabo, if they are same as Rucantii)

    Raci, Raceni, Rucani, Rasani, Rasi, Ruseni, Ruceni is another name for Serbs, so here again we have Sorviodunum as the fort of the Serbs. What is interesting about these Vindelici is this:
    The Brigantes were a Celtic tribe who in pre-Roman times controlled the largest section of what would become Northern England, and a significant part of the Midlands. Their kingdom is sometimes called Brigantia, and it was centred in what was later known as Yorkshire. Ptolemy lists the Brigantes also as a tribe in Ireland, where they could be found around Wexford, Kilkenny and Waterford[1] while another probably Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo as a sub-tribe of the Vindelici in the region of the Alps.[2]

    So if a subtribe of Vindelici built Sorviodunum in Austria and Brigantes are sub tribe of Vindelici, and we have another Sorviodunum in England, is there a connection between Serbs and Brigantes?
    Gordoservon (the equivalent name to Seviodunum)

    In records from Bithynia in the year 680, the city of Gordoservon or Gordoserbon (Greek: Γορδόσερβον, Serbian: Srbograd, Grad Srba, Гордосервон) was a Byzantine city inhabited by Serbs. The name is derived from the Serbs that resettled in Asia Minor (in ca 649[1] or 667[2]) by Byzantine Emperor Constans II (641–668), who came from the areas "around the river Vardar". A "Bishop of Gordoservon" named Isidore is mentioned in 680/681, and the fact that this town was an episcopal seat gives ground to the thesis that it had a large Serbian population. The Serbs were recruited in large numbers into the Byzantine army especially under Justinian II in the 680s, until the defection of a 30,000-strong Serbian contingent led to the disastrous loss of the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692/693.
    Around the year 1200 AD this city is mentioned as Servochoria (Greek: Σερβοχώρια, "Serbian habitations"). The city was situated where the Phrygian kingdom once had been.

    So we find the fort of the Serbs in Asia minor Phrygia as well.

    So what do we make of all this? Did old Lusatian Sorbs from south Baltic come to Ireland and England in Bronze age and continued coming later as Lugi, Sarmatians, Anglo Saxons, Danes? Maybe even Laigin which could have originally been Lugi? Who knows. Did they then return to the south Baltic region during the roman conquest of Britain? Some Serbian historians believed that that could be true. What we know is that we have only two people building ring forts in early medieval Europe, the Slavs and The Irish. Why and how. But the fort related similarity does not stop at ringforts. The Irish and the Western Slavs were the only ones to build island forts which are in Ireland called crannogs. I will write about Irish and Slavic crannogs in my next post.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    I will first give a summary of the Neolithic lake dwellings in Europe, to show their distribution and to show that we have lake island dwellings only in south Baltic, Ireland and Scotland while all the other lake dwellings belong to lake side dwellings.
    Lake Dwellings, sometimes called Alpine Lake Dwellings or Pile Dwellings (Pfahlbauten in German), are a type of house found in villages at lakeshores in the Alps or other mountainous regions. They range in date between the early Neolithic through Iron Age villages and, because of their location at lake margins often exhibit excellent preservation of organic materials.

    Lake dwellings are perhaps more properly called pile dwellings, because they represented houses that were erected atop wooden pilings pounded into the ground and sometimes supported by a web of horizontal pilings to anchor the structures. Lakeside homes were attractive to their residents, particularly in the mountains, because they were located in places where a wide variety of food and other resources could be retrieved from nearby. People who lived in the lake dwelling settlements practiced animal husbandry and farming, as well as relied on hunting and fishing.

    Prehistoric pile dwellings around the Alps is a series of prehistoric pile-dwelling (or stilt house) settlements in and around the Alps built from around 5000 to 500 B.C. on the edges of lakes, rivers or wetlands. 111 sites, located in Austria (5 sites), France (11), Germany (18), Italy (19), Slovenia (2), and Switzerland (56), were added to UNESCO World Heritage Site list in 2011.[1] In Slovenia, this is the first cultural world heritage site.[2]
    Excavations, only conducted in some of the sites, have yielded evidence that provides insight into life in prehistoric times during the Neolithic and Bronze Age in Alpine Europe and the way communities interacted with their environment. As the nomination stated, the settlements are a unique group of exceptionally well-preserved and culturally rich archaeological sites, which constitute one of the most important sources for the study of early agrarian societies in the region.[1]
    Contrary to popular belief, the houses were not erected over water, but on nearby marshy land. They were set on piles to protect against occasional flooding. Because the lakes have grown in size over time, many of the original piles are now under water, giving modern observers the false impression that they always had been. [3]

    Here is a list of so far discovered lake side pile dwellings in Europe outside the Alpine region:



    North Greece

    The pile-dwellings (lake-dwellings) in Macedonia were first mentioned by Herodotus (V, 16) who describes a pile-dwelling at the Prasiad lake (Butkovsko or Dojran lake?). Lake Ohrid, together with Lake Prespa, represents a remnant of the large neogene Dasaret lake and belongs to the Adriatic basin. With the previous investigations, a diluvial terrace was discovered, 10 to 12 metres above the today’s lake water level, beside which a shoreline was confirmed, 4 metres above the present lake level. Lake Ohrid had lower water levels in the past. This is verified through preserved traces, archaeological remains and other data, as well as through legends. Historians, chronologists, travel writers, and researchers have all left behind data on the basis of which records were created of various types of archaeological treasures from the waters of the lake....All these sites abound with mobile archaeological material, which chronologically belonged to the final phases of the New Stone Age (the Neolithic period), as well as to the Copper, Bronze and Iron Ages of the prehistoric epoch....

    Bosnia, Tuzla area

    The remains of the pile-dwellings from the Neolithic Age, 4500 years BC, prove that Tuzla was rather rich Neolithic settlement and findings from the archeological researches in the locality of Gornja Tuzla (Upper Tuzla) suggest that the area of today's Tuzla had been inhabited back in the Early Stone Age.

    Reconstructed neolithic pile dwelling. Please note both square and circular houses mixed together:


    River Sava area (Croatia)

    Neolithic houses from the area:


    These houses were still used in swamps in early 20th century.

    A typical stilt house from the area. This one was dated to 16th century:


    North Eastern Europe



    The only one in Scandinavia
    The Alvastra pile-dwelling (Swedish: Alvastra pålbyggnad or Alvastraboplatsen) is a pile dwelling (also called a stilt house) from ca 3000 BC in Ödeshög Municipality, Östergötland County, Sweden. Southern Scandinavia has many types of cult centres, but the Alvastra pile dwelling is unique in Northern Europe and is the only of its kind outside of the Alpine Pile Dweller culture. It was the seasonal social and religious centre of a tribe that left objects from the Funnelbeaker culture, but pottery from the Pitted Ware culture, in the dwelling. Ca 2/3 of the pile dwelling was excavated by archaeologists in the years 1908–18, 1928–39 and 1976–80.

    "the only of its kind outside of the Alpine Pile Dweller culture" is of course wrong as we can see.

    Poland - Lithuania (old east Prussia)

    Russia, Belorusia, Ukraina

    Reconstruction of the Early and Middle Neolithic Settlement Systems in the Upper Dvina Region (NW Russia)


    Now we come to South Baltic and things start to change. Instead of lake side dwellings, we have lake island dwellings:

    South Baltic Vistula

    Vistula Veneti (Slavs) build dwellings on artificial islands
    In the region identified by Ptolemy and Pliny, east of the Vistula and adjoining the Baltic, there was an Iron Age culture, known to archaeologists as the West Baltic Cairns Culture or West Baltic Barrow Culture, shown coloured violet on the map given here. The culture is associated with the Proto-Balts, who kept this area for almost two thousand years, avoiding adoption of new ideas from their neighbours. These herders lived in small settlements or in little lake dwellings built on artificial islands made of several layers of wooden logs attached by stakes. Their metals were imported, and their dead were cremated and put in urns covered by small mounds.[11]
    In the Post-War era Polish archaeologists generally interpreted the Veneti as the possible bearers of the Pomeranian culture, an Iron Age archaeological culture in Poland to the west of the Vistula, despite the clear location of the Veneti in Roman sources to the east of the Vistula. This identification can still be found in the work of Polish authors of the 1980s and 1990s,[12] although more recent Polish authors tend to reject it.[13]


    Main difference between the Alpine and Baltic lake dwellings is that the Alpine one tend to be built on lake shores, wheres the Baltic ones were mainly built on islands. The following picture shows Different topographical settings of circum-Alpine pile dwellings(1) and wetland sites of the North European plain (2). The shores of the circum-Alpine lakes are often wooded and preserve domestic structures under wet conditions. The elevated position of the North European sites on islands results in wet preservation only at the edge of the settlements and the waste areas close to the shore:


    Please note how lake dwellings in European mainland cluster in the Alpine region and the south Baltic region. Balkan sites and eastern Europe sites are ignored for some reason. The important thing to note is that the main lake dwelling areas are Balkan - Baltic (Central Europe) and Ireland and Britain. Maybe this is only due to the fact that this type of dwellings can be preserved only in lakes which kept their water level or increased their water level.
    Archaeologists from the Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń found remains of an artificial island from early medieval times on the lake Paklicko Wielkie near Nowy Dworek (Lubuskie), Lubuskie conservator Barbara Bielinis-Kopeć told PAP.
    "It is only so-called scaffolding settlement known in our country. The artificial island was connected to the mainland by a wooden bridge with a length of at least 80 meters, a width of three meters. Both the bridge and the island structure can be dated back to VIII-IX century" - Bielinis-Kopeć told PAP.
    Based on research conducted from the surface and under water, the researchers found that the artificial island was built in the shallower part of the reservoir, located about 120 meters from the shore. Within it, on the surface of several acres, a scaffolding had been built of oak and pine, and gradually overbuilt with the water table raising. On the island researchers discovered numerous historical objects, mostly pottery fragments and animal bones.
    This is another interesting find made by Toruń archaeologists in Lubuskie waters. Two years ago, on the lake Niesłysz scientists discovered bridge relics dating back to 940’s, which in light of current research is considered the oldest bridge in our country, and at the same time one of the most complete and best preserved in Slavic areas.
    The oak bridge with a length of about 100 m and a width of 4 m on the lake Niesłysz connected mainland with the island on the lake, which was a place of worship.,390889,archaeologists-found-remains-of-an-artificial-island.html

    So cultures from south Baltic built island dwellings from Neolithic times until medieval times. Now let's have a look at crannogs:
    A crannog (Irish: crannóg; Scottish Gaelic: crannag) is typically a partially or entirely artificial island, usually built in lakes, rivers and estuarine waters of Scotland and Ireland. Unlike the prehistoric pile dwellings around the Alps which were built on the shores and were only inundated later on, crannogs were built in the water, thus forming artificial islands....In reality, crannogs took on many different forms and methods of construction based upon what was available in the immediate landscape; there is no single "correct" way to construct a crannog.

    ...The earliest construction of a crannog is the completely artificial Neolithic islet of Eilean Domhnuill, Loch Olabhat on North Uist in Scotland. Eilean Domhnuill[9] has produced radiocarbon dates ranging from 3650 to 2500 BC[6] while Irish crannogs appear from middle Bronze Age layers at Ballinderry (1200–600 BC).[51] Prior to the Bronze Age, the existence of artificial island settlement in Ireland is not as clear. While lake-side settlements are evident in Ireland from 4500BC these settlements are not crannogs in that they were not intended to be islands. Despite having a tremendous chronology, their use was not at all consistent or unchanging. Crannog construction and occupation reached a floruit in Scotland from approximately 800BC to AD200.[7] Not surprisingly, crannogs have useful defensive properties, although there appears to be more significance to prehistoric use than simple defense as very few weapons or evidence for destruction appear in excavations of prehistoric crannogs. In Ireland, crannogs tend to reach a floruit during the Early Historic period[1] when they were the homes and retreats of kings, lords, prosperous farmers and occasionally socially marginalised groups such as monastic hermits or metalsmiths who could work in isolation. However, despite earlier concepts of a strict Early Historic evolution,[2] Irish excavations are increasingly uncovering examples which date to the 'missing' Iron Age in Ireland.[48]...

    ...Crannogs are widespread in Ireland with an estimated 1,200 examples[15] while Scotland "officially" contains 347 sites listed as such.[16] The actual number in Scotland varies considerably—between approximately 350 to 500 due to the use of the term "island dun" for well over one hundred Hebridean examples—a distinction that has created a divide between mainland Scottish crannog and Hebridean islet settlement studies.[17][18] Previously unknown crannogs in Scotland and Ireland are still being found as underwater surveys continue to investigate loch beds for completely submerged examples[19] The largest concentrations of crannogs in Ireland are found in the Drumlin Belt of the midlands, the north and the northwest. In Scotland, crannogs favour a western or 'Atlantic distribution', with high concentrations in Argyll and Dumfries and Galloway.[7][20] In reality, the Western Isles contains the highest density of lake-settlement in Scotland, yet they are recognised under varying terms besides crannog.[21] One lone Welsh example at Llangorse Lake exists, likely a product of Irish influence across the Irish Sea[22]...

    Crannogs in Ireland are not evenly distributed, but are concentrated in the north west of Ireland. This could be because most lakes in Ireland are concentrated in north west of Ireland. But this could also imply presence of two different cultures which preferred different dwelling types: the crannog culture in the north west of Ireland and the other culture(s) who preferred dry land dwellings even when they lived next to a lake.

    Here is a very good map of the distribution of crannogs in Ireland. I shows clear division of Ireland into crannog teritory and the dry land dwellings territory.


    The scattered small number of crannogs in the rest of Ireland can be explained as colonies, either early or late, due to clan migrations from the north west of Ireland.

    This crannog distribution almost perfectly matches the territory of Leath Cuinn, the north of Ireland, wheres the non crannog territory matches the Leath Moga, the south of Ireland.
    As a result of the battle of Maigh Nuadad in 123 A.D., where he was defeated by Eoghan Mor (also known as Mug Nuadat, Conn was forced by Eoghan to accede to the division of Ireland into two halves:

    The North - taking in Connacht, Ulster and Meath - would be Conn's Half
    The South - taking in Munster, Osraighe and Leinster - would be Eoghan's Half.

    Here is the county map of Ireland so you can compare it with the map of crannog distribution.


    The possibility that the above mentioned division of Ireland and the asymmetrical distribution of crannogs in Ireland is a consequence of difference in population can be seen when we compare the crannog distribution map, the map of division of Ireland and the genetic maps of Irelans. The part of Ireland where we find the most crannogs, coincides with the part of Ireland where we find the most I and R1a haplogroups.


    Look at the distribution of R1a, I2a and I2b in Ireland and Scotland. It strangely corresponds with the distribution of crannogs.

    In John Speed's map of Ulster 1610 he shows thirteen crannogs, he doesn't show the one at Fair Head, so it is safe to assume there were perhaps considerably more than thirteen crannogs still in use in the North of Ireland in the 17th century.

    Western Slavs were the only other people to build Island dwellings at the same time. Here are few:


    You can find more here:

    So who were these people who lived in the north west of Ireland, built island dwellings like the ones only western Slavs built in south Baltic and had I2 and R1a haplogroups exactly like western Slavs? Could Cruthin have something to do with it? We know that they have found I2 dna in Cruthin clans?
    The Cruthin (Old Irish, IPA: [ˈkɾˠʊθʲɪn̠ʲ]; Middle Irish Cruithnig or Cruithni; Modern Irish: Cruithne [Irish pronunciation: [ˈkɾˠɪhn̠ʲə]]) were a people of early Ireland, who occupied parts of Counties Down, Antrim and Londonderry in the early medieval period.
    Their ruling dynasties included the Dál nAraidi in southern Antrim and the Uí Echach Cobo in western Down. Early sources preserve a distinction between the Cruthin and the Ulaid, who gave their name to the province of Ulster, although the Dál nAraide claimed in their genealogies to be na fir Ulaid, "the true Ulaid".[1] The Loígis, who gave their name to County Laois in Leinster, and the Sogain of Connacht are also claimed as Cruthin in early Irish genealogies.[2]

    Early Irish writers used the name Cruthin to refer to both the north-eastern Irish group and to the Picts of Scotland.[5] Likewise, the Scottish Gaelic word for a Pict is Cruithen or Cruithneach, and for Pictland is Cruithentúath.[7] It has thus been suggested that the Cruthin and Picts were the same people or were in some way linked.[1] Professor T. F. O'Rahilly proposed that the Qritani/Pritani were the first Celtic group to inhabit Britain and Ireland, and describes them as, "the earliest inhabitants of these islands to whom a name can be assigned".[8] It has also been suggested that Cruthin was a name used to refer to all the Britons who were not conquered by the Romans – those who lived outside Roman Britannia, north of Hadrian's Wall.[6]

    Another question we can ask is do the builders of crannogs have anything to do with the Lochlannach? Maybe Lochlannach were not just the Norsmen but the people of mixed Gaelic and Baltic race?

    This is what wikipedia says about Lochlann:
    All uses of the word "Lochlann" relate it to Nordic realms of Europe. While the traditional view has identified Laithlind with Norway, some have preferred to locate it in a Norse-dominated part of Scotland, perhaps the Hebrides or the Northern Isles.[1] Donnchadh Ó Corráin states that Laithlinn was the name of Viking Scotland, and that a substantial part of Scotland—the Northern and Western Isles and large areas of the coastal mainland from Caithness and Sutherland to Argyle—was conquered by the Vikings in the first quarter of the ninth century and a Viking kingdom was set up there earlier than the middle of the century.[2] In relation to the debate about Lochlann's location, it is noteworthy that the Port an Eilean Mhòir viking ship burial discovered in the Ardnamurchan peninsula of western Scotland contained a whetstone from Norway and a bronze ringpin from Ireland.[3]

    Whatever the meaning of Laithlind and Lochlann in Ireland in the ninth and tenth centuries, it may have referred to Norway later. In 1058 Magnus Haraldsson is called "the son of the king of Lochlann", and his nephew Magnus Barefoot is the "king of Lochlann" in the Irish πreports of the great western expedition four decades later.[23]

    Is it possible that these were the same mix of Danes, Slavs, Norse, Saxons (Again) who settled in Western Scotland and among other things built island dwellings? Quite possible as Magnus Haraldsson, "the son of the king of Lochlann" is Half Slav of Russian descent. What I have found during my investigation into Slavic Viking relationship is that there seem to have been two major tribal alliances fighting over the domination of the northern Europe:

    1. Danish federation which included the the members of the old Anglo Saxon federation (Danes, Jutes, Saxons, Western Slavs, Poles, some south Swedish (Scania) clans, and some south Norse clans)
    2. Norse federation which included north Swedes and Russian Slavs.

    The Scotish Vikings belonged to the Norse alliance which was at war with the Danish (Half Dan) alliance.

    So back to Magnus Haraldsson.
    Magnus II Haraldsson (1048–1069) was King of Norway from 1066 to 1069...Father: Harald III of Norway...

    Harald Sigurdsson (Old Norse: Haraldr Sigurðarson; c. 1015 – 25 September 1066), given the epithet Hardrada (harðráði, roughly translated as "stern counsel" or "hard ruler") in the sagas, was the King of Norway from 1046 to 1066 as Harald III. He also unsuccessfully claimed the Danish throne until 1064, and the English throne in 1066. Prior to becoming king, Harald had spent a period of around fifteen years in exile as a mercenary and military commander in Kievan Rus' and in the Byzantine Empire....he married Elisabeth (referred to in Scandinavian sources as Ellisif), daughter of Yaroslav the Wise and granddaughter of the Swedish king Olof Skötkonung.[44] Shortly after Harald's arrival in Kiev, Yaroslav attacked Constantinople, and it is considered likely that Harald provided him with valuable information about the state of the empire.[49]... It is in any case significant that Harald was allowed to marry the daughter of Yaroslav, since his other children were married to figures such as Henry I of France, Andrew I of Hungary and the daughter of Constantine IX.[49]...

    So Magnus Haraldsson, "the son of the king of Lochlann" is son of Russian princess Jelisaveta. Magnus's father, Harald Sigurdsson, was a son of Sigurd Syr:
    Sigurd Syr (Old Norse: Sigurðr Sýr) (died 1018) was a Norwegian petty king of Ringerike, a region in Buskerud. By his marriage with Åsta Gudbrandsdatter, he was the father of King Harald Hardrada and stepfather of King Olaf the Saint. His nickname "Syr" can be translated as meaning "sow". The reason for this is unknown;

    Maybe Sir is Ser as in high, the best? But that is not Norse and therefore is not a possibilty...

    Who was this Sigurd Syr:
    The traditional view of Sigurd Syr's pedigree, as presented in various Icelandic poems and historical sagas culminating in Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla, is that he was a great-grandson of King Harald Fairhair, through Harald's son Sigurd Hrise.[2] However, many modern historians regard the Fairhair genealogy as in large part invented.[3] Sigurd's father Halfdan may not have been Halfdan of Hadafylke, Harald's grandson;[4] there are no contemporary attestations of such a Halfdan. Doubt has also been cast on Sigurd Rise, a relatively obscure son of Harald Fairhair by a Sami girl named Snæfrid.[5]

    So Sigurd Syr was a descendant of of Harald Fairhair who was a son of Halfdan the black.
    In Heimskringla it is written that Harald succeeded, on the death of his father Halfdan the Black Gudrödarson, to the sovereignty of several small, and somewhat scattered kingdoms in Vestfold, which had come into his father's hands through conquest and inheritance. His protector-regent was his mother's brother Guthorm.

    So he is supposed to be another son of some Half Dan the black??? Westerm South Baltic Slavs are often described as dark haired as opposed to the eastern Slavs who are blond. Is this just another sign of inter tribal mixing in the Baltic?

    Regardless who the Half Dan was, we have in Scotland the half Norse, half Russian king of Lochlann. Russians also built gords and crannogs.
    In Scotland, crannogs favour a western or 'Atlantic distribution', with high concentrations in Argyll and Dumfries and Galloway.[7][20] In reality, the Western Isles contains the highest density of lake-settlement in Scotland, yet they are recognised under varying terms besides crannog.

    This is what we can read about Viking Scotland:
    In the main, Viking Scotland comprised the Northern and Western Isles, Caithness, Sutherland and Inverness. Known severally as Lothlend, Laithlinn or Lochlainn (depending on which source you read), this area was comprehensively settled by Norse Vikings by the early ninth century. By mid-century it had created its own royal dynasty no longer directly connected to the Vestfold in Norway, and by the end of the ninth century this dynasty had made Dublin its main headquarters, from where it waged war on the indigenous Irish kings. Tribute was also collected from Picts and Scots on the mainland of Scotland, and when they were expelled from Dublin in 902 C.E. the Vikings there returned to Scotland. Following various engagements and battles, York was conquered and the kingdom of Dublin re-founded in 917 C.E. It has been postulated elsewhere that Olaf the White, Norse king of Dublin in the mid-ninth century, was in fact of Hebridean birth or ancestry. Dublin (and other places in Ireland) were now being used as bases to loot and plunder both Irish and English monasteries and their hinterlands, but not the Hebrides. From this it may be inferred that the Scottish islands and Highland coastal regions were by now areas not seen as targets, but so settled by the Norse and their ensuing generations that they were now capable of providing the raiding parties themselves. Summer raids were regularly mounted from here to Ireland, England and the north-west coasts of the continent.

    This the the map of Viking Scotland:


    But in exactly the same area we find the Irish Dál Riata. This is the map of Dál Riata kingdom:


    The history of Dál Riata, while unknown before the middle of the 6th century, and very unclear after the middle of the 8th century, is relatively well recorded in the intervening two centuries, although many questions remain unanswered. As has been said, the origins of the link between Dál Riata in Scotland and Ireland are obscure. What is not in doubt is that Irish Dál Riata was a lesser kingdom of Ulaid. The Kingship of Ulster was dominated by the Dál Fiatach and contested by the Cruithne kings of the Dál nAraidi.[35]

    Dál Riata Scottish territories are almost identical with the Norse Viking territories??? It is very interesting that the history of the Dál Riata becomes blurred at the time of the establishment of the Viking kingdom in Scotland.
    If the Vikings had a great impact on Pictland and in Ireland, in Dál Riata, as in Northumbria, they appear to have entirely replaced the existing kingdom with a new entity. In the case of Dál Riata this was to be known as the kingdom of the Sudreys, traditionally founded by Ketil Flatnose (Caitill Find in Gaelic) in the middle of the 9th century. The Frankish Annales Bertiniani may record the conquest of the Inner Hebrides, the seaward part of Dál Riata, by Vikings in 847.[51]
    Alex Woolf has suggested that there occurred a formal division of Dál Riata between the Norse-Gaelic Uí Ímair and the natives, like those divisions that took place elsewhere in Ireland and Britain, with the Norse controlling most of the islands, and the Gaels controlling the Scottish coast and the more southerly islands. In turn Woolf suggests that this gave rise to the terms Airer Gaedel and Innse Gall, respectively "the coast of the Gaels" and the "Islands of the foreigners".[52]

    What is interesting is that at the same time as we have Dál Riata we have their opponents in Ulster known as Dál nAraidi. Interestingly they are not to be confused (???) even though their names are almost the same and unlike the name for any tribe around them. And these guys were Cruthin:
    Dál nAraidi (sometimes Latinised as Dalaradia — which should not be confused with Dál Riata, Latinised as Dalriada) was a kingdom of the Cruthin (Irish Cruithni) in the north-east of Ireland in the first millennium. The lands of the Dál nAraidi appear to correspond with the Robogdii of Ptolemy's Geographia, a region shared with Dál Riata. Fiachu Araide was the eponymous founder of the Dál nAraidi.
    It was centred on the northern shores of Lough Neagh in southern Antrim. Dál nAraidi was the second kingdom of Ulster, and its kings contended with the Dál Fiatach for the high-kingship for some centuries. It is doubtful whether the Dál nAraidi kingdom existed, except as a loose confederation of small kingdoms, until the 8th century, long after the Cruithne kings had ceased to have any real control over the high-kingship of Ulster.

    What are we to make of all of this? How deep was connection between the Slavs, the Danes, the Norse and the Gaels? I believe quite deep as Fermanagh crannog is showing us with it's mixed Irish and Viking finds:
    New discoveries made during the first ever substantial excavation of a crannog in Northern Ireland - an artificial island in a lake – in Co Fermanagh, are shedding dramatic new light on life in medieval Ireland, and its connections to the wider world. The “dig” is of growing international significance and is rewriting our understanding of medieval history.

    Have a look at these pictures:

    Biskupin, Lusatian culture:


    Fermanagh crannog


    What do you think? The same technique?

    Look at this picture from Biskupin, Lusatian culture:


    and read this meaning of a word crannog in Gaelic:
    The additional meanings of crannog can be variously related as "structure/piece of wood; wooden pin; crow's nest; pulpit; driver's box on a coach and vessel/box/chest" for crannóg.

    Maybe the word Crannog meaning (vessel/box/chest) describes the above picture from Biskupin? What do you think?

    I will talk more about the Slavs, the Danes, the Norse and the Gaels when i come back from my holidays in two weeks time. Until then have fun and god bless.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles

    Fascinating stuff. Thanks.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    Coles wrote: »
    Fascinating stuff. Thanks.

    Fantastical more like. You could make the same argument about any Indo-European culture and come up with linguistic and cultural evidence to support your argument.

    There's as much similarly between Ireland and vedic India!