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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

  • 30-04-2013 5:48pm
    Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭

    Old European (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish language and culture
    Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.
    While trying to uncover potential meeting point, I first looked at Viking invasions from the south Baltic. While there were many things pointing to a substantial West Slavic presence among the Danish Vikings who settled in England and Ireland, this all happened too late in order to explain hundreds of old Irish words and names which were identical to the Serbian ones. Not only were these words the same, they came in clusters and could often have a root in only one of languages with complex words being present in both. It also could not explain the early medieval Irish personal names which had meaning in Serbian. It also could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. Vikings just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar.
    I then looked at the Ango – Saxon period and discovered that there was a significant West Slavic (Wendish) presence in the Angles alliance. They settled in large areas of England, and there was a possibility that some unrecorded Angles settlements did appear in Ireland in the early medieval time with significant West Slavic population. But again this could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. If there were Angles settlements in Ireland in the early medieval time, they again just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar. Also there was a problem of even earlier archaeological finds, linked to the iron age, which had Serbian and Slavic characteristics. There were too many old customs, legends, sacred sites which had their counterparts in Slavic countries and particularly Balkan South Slavic countries.
    So I looked at Rome, and Roman invasions of Britain and wandered was this maybe the source of common cultural characteristics between the Irish and the Serbs. But Romans never entered Ireland and there is no known record of Irish mercenaries in the Roman army, so that removed a possible connection once again.
    So I looked at Iron Age period and found many things which pointed to a significant cultural influx from the south Baltic. There was a great similarity between Lusatian culture in the south Baltic and the Iron Age cultures in Ireland and England, and it seems that the Iron Age was brought to Ireland on the spears and swords of the people from south Baltic. This was a good starting point. The warrior elite from the Baltic could have brought with them their beliefs, their language and their customs, and forced them on the people they encountered in Ireland. But that would not explain the huge number of toponymes and hydronimes in the Balkans which have no meaning in Slavic languages but do have meaning in Irish. And these toponymes and hydronimes come in clusters and are tightly connected with the location of the Balkan tumulus culture sites. Also this would not explain the presence of all the words, and grammatical constructs which only exist in Irish and in certain dialects of south Slavic languages and particularly in some old dialects of Serbian. This also would not explain all the base words in South Slavic languages which can be broken down and explained using Irish. For this to be possible, Irish speaking people had to be present in the Balkans in great numbers for a very long time during the Iron Age and even during the Bronze Age.
    So I looked at Celts as a possible cultural link between the two people. They were the rulers of central Europe, precisely the area between the Baltic and the Balkans. That would have given them the ability to influence both the Irish and the people who would later become the Western Slavs. But Celts never had any significant long term presence in the Balkans. They came through the Balkans on the way to Asia Minor in the 3rd century bc. But their main strongholds were in the area above Danube. The area below Danube was the land of the Illyrians. Illyrians and Celts were by some people linked and called Celto – Illyrians. This certainly was a good lead. If Illyrians actually spoke the same or similar language to the Celts, then that would explain all the similarities between the Irish and Serbian languages but only if we accept that both the Irish and Serbian languages are direct descendants of the Celto Illyrian language and that Celtic and Illyrian were the same language.
    This was already getting very controversial, as this would mean that there is a cultural continuity in the area between the Baltic and the Balkan lasting for more than 2500 years. This would mean that there is an underlying Celtic cultural layer in the Slavic culture and that the Slavic culture was created as a fusion of the Celtic and Skito Sarmatian cultures? The similarities between the Irish and Serbian cultures would then be the Celtic layer, and that would allow us to decipher the Celtic language from Irish and Slavic languages. This was very exciting. But there were things that could not be explained with the Celtic connection.
    First it could not explain the amount of the words, customs, legends from old Rome and old Greece which could not be explained through Old Greek and Latin but could using Irish and Serbian language and culture. The only way this was possible was that somehow these cultural influences came to Italy and Greece from the Balkans at the time before the formation of both Kingdome of Rome and the Classical Greece. And there were plenty of ancient historical texts, as well as archaeological data that pointed to exactly that was the case.
    The latest archaeological data from Serbia confirms that iron was invented in the Balkans. The earliest iron metallurgical centre in the world, dated to 14th–13th century b BC, was found in south eastern Serbia in the hill fort settlement on the hill called Hisar. This site belongs to the earliest proto Illyrian period.
    So there was a culture in the Balkans powerful enough to influence Rome, Greece and Celtic central Europe. This had moved the meeting point where the future Irish and Serbs lived together to the Balkans in the end of the second and the beginning of the first millennium BC and identified the Illyrian culture as the root culture for both the Irish and the Serbs. But this culture also greatly influenced Old Rome and Greece which was evident from the amount of cultural characteristics and linguistic traces in both cultures which were in all the ancient texts attributed to the mysterious Pelasgians who even more mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth together with their Illyrian and Celtic neighbours. These Pelasgians, Illyrians and Celts now turned out to be alive and well in the Irish, South and Western Slavs….This was getting really interesting.
    But then I came across the story about Vinca metallurgical revolution which happened in the 4th millennium BC. At the same time when they were making lots of Copper and Bronze weapons, Vinca people were creating a first organized religion. When you have well-armed religious fanatics you can be sure that a religious war is not far behind. And that is exactly what seemed to have happened in the second half of the 4th millennium BC. Vinca culture suddenly disappeared from the Balkans, but Vinca artefacts started appearing all over Europe, Asia and North Africa. And all of a sudden all these great civilisations started appearing everywhere, all based on the same symbols, the wolf, the eagle and other birds, the snake, the bee, the bull, the double axe, the mother goddess earth, the father sky, the son sun and daughter moon, the bird people and wolf people. The Vincans went out of the Balkans and took over the world, wielding their metal spears, swords and axes and carrying their wolf totems before them. They also took with them their language whose traces can be now found in all the Indo European languages.
    But they did not all leave. Some stayed at home and they later morphed into Illyrians. Those who went north eventually became Celts and Germans. Those who reached Britain and Ireland eventually became Gaels.
    Later the descendants of the Vincans returned, in waves from all sides, bringing with them new cultural and linguistic characteristics which they acquired over the centuries while mixing with the indo European peoples they had conquered. These new cultural and linguistic layers were deposited on top of the old European strand of Vinca culture which was created from the mix of Vincans and the other old European cultures. Steppe people came from the east, Asia minor and Mesopotamians from the south east, North African people from the south, Atlantic people from the west. And the Vinca culture slowly disappeared.
    The isolation of the Irish at the end of Europe, and the sheer number and military strength of the mountain people of the Balkans and the Central European mountains helped them to preserve this Vinca cultural and linguistic layer to this day, albeit covered with thick layers of Gaelic and Slavic and many other cultures and Languages.
    Comparing these two languages I believe that I have now uncovered this culture and language of old Europe. It could not be better.
    But this is not all.
    I also believe that in this old language I have discovered a possibility to reconstruct the oldest language spoken in Europe, the language before the language. I believe that I have discovered how the first language was formed in Europe from natural sounds, and how this earliest human language was preserved and conserved in the Irish and Serbian languages and their base words.
    To support my theory, I have accumulated a lot of material which I am translating into English. I am planning to make it available as soon as possible. The work is however in progress and I am writing this to invite everyone who might be interested to help me to continue this investigation as this is becoming too big and too important for just one man.
    I hope this does not sound too mad or pretentious. You have to believe me that I am pinching myself every day, as it is hard to believe that anyone can be so lucky to stumble across something like this…



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles

    Fascinating stuff. Best of luck with it and hopefully the journey will be fruitful.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner

    There were two posters here who could be helpful. Sadly, Enkidu, the most helpful poster you could meet has closed his account because he's off writing a book.
    The other poster is Bolgios, whose experience straddles both regions.

    I'll see if I can find some of Enkidu's posts on Indo-European roots.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Thank you very much guys.

    I will start here by commending you for your effort and praising your enthusiasm with an irish - serbian word "Mol"



    hub(n m1)(of wheel)



    Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
    Mol-ba Pleading
    Molad je (e) - c - reccommended is - a commendation given to a someone
    Mol-io bih - If i could suggest


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare

    Hi dublinviking,

    I don't know if this is relevant but I found it on a Graham Hancock post.

    Might be connected, you never know, could be a sign of common ancestry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Quite possible. The Vinca migration went out from the Balkans 5,500 years ago to south east. The descendants of these Vinca people, came back later and recolonized Europe.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare

    I would have to bring in the Mummies of the Takla Makkan as a possible wild card here though, a village pre Summerian and originating over this side of Europe, ie Celtic, in the seat of Asian developement.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    I would have to bring in the Mummies of the Takla Makkan as a possible wild card here though, a village pre Summerian and originating over this side of Europe, ie Celtic, in the seat of Asian developement.

    What is the dating on these mummies? Vinca culture is a continuation of much older Balkan cultures like Lepenski vir, Starcevo... Vinca produced first metal 7000 years ago. I know i have said that they went into an all out war in the second part of the 4th millennium but i see no reason for them not to start the process of expansion much earlier. Also it is quite possible that Vincans came from somewhere else. There are much earlier civilizations existing in the steppes in the east and there is probably a link. The reason why vinca is where i stopped is because this is how far i have been able to trace the common Europen cultural threads.

    Ok first things first. I need to define what and who the "Serbs" are. It seems that “Serb” or probably originally just SRB originally meant a member of a Vincan military elite, almost like a religious military order. This name for a warrior was spread around the world with vincan invaders and could explain all the Sar, Ser, Sur, Sir, Sor, names, toponymes, place names that we find strewn from Britain to Mesopotamia.
    Only much later in the old Vinca land, and in the adjoining central European lands between Balkans and Baltic, this became the name for tribes ruled by this warrior elite. Maybe this was the name that Vincans used to call themselves, and that is the reason it survived in the Balkan - Baltic area, but i can't prove that.

    So lets see where the meaning of word Serb comes from:

    Saor in Irish means free.
    Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
    Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.


    touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitró;s, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfó;nos, slaughter, @Gqeí;nw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.

    So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

    In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

    There is no etymology to be found for Serbian, Sarbian in any Slavic language and this has long been a hot topic of contention…So this is obviously pre Slavic word.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Thank you all guys. I don't know too many people in the field of Archeology and Paleolinguistics in Ireland. If you know anyone who could help, please invite them along. This is going to be some ride and more the merrier.

    Thanks Slow burner. Thank you very much for the links. Specially the one about the sound changes.

    Let me continue with my story. I am actually presenting it in the same order it presented itself to me, so you can see how i arrived to my final conclusion. I have skipped the whole Slavic Viking, And Slavic Angles story. It is important but I just don't have time to translate all of it at the moment. If you know anyone who is particularly interested in that aspect of my investigation, i can try and translate some of it...

    So back to Vinca connection.

    Tabor Breg in Kingdom of Brega

    In Serbia you can find Mountain Tara and river Tara, but also mountain taor which is how you pronounce Teamhair (tavor, taor (tabor)) the actual old name of Tara in Ireland. People who live in this part of Serbia call themselves "Ere" and there is even a male personal name Era.

    In Serbian tabor is a military camp. Utaboriti se is to set up camp. Taborovati is to camp. Tavoriti is standing in one place, not moving. Tabor, Tavor, Taur, Tara....

    I know that word tabor also exists in turkish with the same meaning (a military camp), but this word predates the Turks and I believe that it is a borrowing from Serbian (Irish, Vinca language). There is a mount Taur in Lycia, the tallest mountain range in Anatolia which predates the Turkish invasions of Asia Minor. There is also attested Celtic presence in Asia Minor many centuries before Turks arrived. Huge number of Balkan "Slavs", were settled in the eastern parts of Anatolia in the early medieval time by the Byzantine empire to man the military frontier. Later on, after the Turkish conquest, core of the military elite quickly became predominantly manned by the Balkan “Slavs”. Janissary (infantry) and Delije (Cavalry) were predominantly of Balkan "Slavic" Serbian origin. Cavalry was always the strongest force in the Serbian army. The superiority of the Serbian cavalry in the 12th to 15th century Europe was absolute. They were considered the best cavalry in Europe and European Hussars originate in the late 15th-century Serbian warriors that had left Ottoman Serbia, beginning in the 14th century.

    At the moment there are several million Turks with Serbian (Bosnian) descent living in Turkey. So tabor can well be a very old Serbian, Irish, Vinca word for a military camp, which came into Turkish as a borrowing. Another proof that word Tabor comes from central Europe is that it is found in the languages spoken in central European lands never conquered by Turks, like Czech and Slovak...If you look at what the world for military camp is in European languages, You will see that these languages use word Tabor: South Slavic, Romanian, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, . Russians use лагерь, Bulgarians лагер…All Germanic and Latin based languages use Camp, including Irish…

    And by the way there is no clear etymology for tara or Teamhair in Gaelic....

    In Serbian "Taraba" is a fence, a barrier in front of the house, and "Za-tarabiti" is to place behind barier, to fence off....There is a word "Tar" in Irish which means to pass, so taraba could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home, where taraba would be the fence that surrounds home, which signifies that you have arrived. Place of arrival kind of corresponds to tabor. You arrive to Tabor.

    I believe that this also supports the above etymology for Tara, Taor, Tabor:
    The Hill of Tara lies about midway between the towns of Dunshaughlin and Navan in the gently rolling countryside of south central Meath. The monuments comprising the core of the Tara complex are scattered along a low ridge about 2km long, orientated roughly north - south, a little to the west of the main Dublin-Navan road. Unimposing from the east, which is the usual modern approach, the ground rises steadily to about 155m above sea-level before dropping away quite steeply to the west, presenting an impressive vista over the central plain of Ireland.

    This aspect is implicit in one of the two etymologies of its Irish name, Teamhair, provided by the ninth-century text Sanas Chormaic, i.e. a height from which there is a fine view. An alternative, and possibly more accurate, etymology emphasises the liminal nature of Tara, suggesting that the name has something to do with twilight or darkness, perhaps a sacred space or the gates to the Otherworld. It is likely, nevertheless, that the sense of elevation at Tara, which is conferred by the surrounding panorama rather than by its actual height above sea-level, was a key factor in the choice of this place for ceremonial activity.

    You set up tabor (military camp) on top of hills from which you can have a good view of the surrounding countryside...So in 9th century they still remembered (vaguely) the original meaning of the word. Now however we have this mumbo jumbo light dark crap which is "possibly more accurate".

    It is also interesting that the hill of Tara Is in the area of Ireland which once belonged to the kingdom of Brega. In Serbian "Breg" means a small hill, and particularly man made hill. In Irish "breg" has no meaning, although i did find it translated in some places as "hill". So Breg Tabor was in the kingdom of Brega.

    Here is an interesting poem from 10-12th century which talks about "tabor (Temair) breg":

    The poem starts:
    Temair Breg, whence is it named? Declare O sages!

    Then it goes on to explain:

    Cathair Crofhind ('twas not amiss)
    30] was its name under the Tuatha De Danand,
    till there came Tea, never unjust,
    the wife of Erimon lofty of mien.
    Round her house was built a rampart
    by Tea daughter of Lugaid;
    35] she was buried beyond the wall without,
    so that from her is Temair named.
    The Seat of the Kings was its name:
    the kingly line of the Milesians reigned in it:
    five names accordingly were given it
    40] from the time when it was Fordruim till it was Temair.

    So Tuatha De Danan ruled this land. They gave the name to "tabor breg". Then Milesians came and conquered the area, and the meaning of the name was forgotten. According to the Irish chronicles, Tuatha De Danan came from the North East, from across the sea, from South Baltic. They spoke a language in which "tabor breg" had a meaning. Milesians came from south west, from across the sea, from Spain. They spoke Gaelic, the language in which "tabor breg" does not have meaning.
    ...The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from Nemed...Nemed was the son of Agnoman of Scythia...

    Milesians are a people figuring in Irish mythology. The descendants of Míl Espáine (which is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania"), they were the final inhabitants of Ireland invading the country from Iberia, and were believed to represent the Goidelic (or Gaelic) Celts.

    On the fifth page of the poem it says:
    Mag Breg with numerous hills

    Here is what is said about the kingdom of Brega:

    Brega took its name from Mag Breg, the plain of Brega in modern County Meath, County Louth and County Dublin, Ireland

    Does Kingdom of Brega means the Kingdom of the hills, Tumuluses? There aren't too many tumuluses in Ireland. There are many in the Balkans. Obviously the tumulus culture came from the Balkans to Ireland.
    A tumulus can be found close to the Grianán of Aileach in County Donegal. It has been suggested by historians such as George Petrie, who surveyed the site in the early 19th century, that the tumulus may predate the ring fort of Aileach by many centuries possibly to the neolithic age. Surrounding stones were laid horizontally, and converged towards the centre. the mound had been excavated in Petrie’s time, but nothing explaining its meaning was discovered. It was subsequently destroyed, but its former position is marked by a heap of broken stones. Similar mounds can be found at The Hill of Tara and there are several prominent tumuli at Brú na Bóinne in County Meath.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    The point in comparing Irish and Serbs is that they are far apart in every way, and should not have any overlapping cultural and linguistic characteristics. But i have found hundreds of words, names, grammatical constructs, sayings, customs, beliefs, legends which are the same or are complementing each other. This is only possible if at some, very distant time these now unrelated people were one and the same. I am betting on the I haplogroup, And particularly on I2a as being the carriers of that culture. So for me Vinca = Illyria = Central Europan Celts = Lusatian culture = Norse Germanic culture = Old Irish culture = Central European western and south Slavic cultures = I2a. But also all the other I haplogroups as well.
    For many years--and despite enormous sums spent on WTYs etc.--the I2a-Dinaric clade common in Central-Eastern Europe has been very resistant to SNP definition and partition. Not a single SNP was found to split the clade, and the only SNP to define the clade was L147, which occurs in multiple other haplogroups and hence is not sufficiently "unique" for the FTDNA haplotree.

    But finally, Geno 2.0 results have identified two SNPs that split Dinaric, and three more that define it. All five are now available for order from FTDNA.

    CTS10228 and CTS5966 were ancestral in one south-central Polish Dinaric, but derived in about seven other Dinarics across Central-Eastern Europe.

    CTS10936, CTS11768, and CTS4002 were derived in all eight Dinarics, but ancestral in the nearest related clade (Disles).

    The one Dinaric that tested negative for CTS10228 and CTS5966 has ordered Y-DNA67, but no marker results have arrived yet.

    So there is a definite old link between Balkan I2a and Irish and British I2a. R1b (gaelic) came much later (2500 bc) from Spain and southern France. But they only subdued the whole of Ireland in the early medieval time, so this is why this old culture survived for so long...

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Some people are wandering how could there be a link between Vinca (pre-Indo-Europeans) 5300-3500 BC and Celtic people (Indo-Europeans) proto-proper 1800-700 BC. I was one of those people myself.

    But connection does exists. Vinca cultural and economic expansion probably started before 3500 bc. Their full scale invasion of the rest of the world started some time after 3500 bc. They reached among other places Greece, Crete, Asia Minor and eventually Egypt. There in Egypt they started great Egyptian civilization which later bore Mynoan civilization which later bore Mycenaean civilization which then came back home and started the proto Celto Illyrian civilization.
    They also went east and started Mesopotamian civilizatons, Indian civilization...The Indo Europeans who invaded Europe were just coming back home.

    What is important to understand about these Vinca guys, is that they were not a nation, but a military oligarchy, which would impose itself on other people, force their beliefs and culture on them and form something of a mix of local and Vincan culture. They were small in number, but technologically superior and completely bloody minded. So they would conquer a tribe and couple of centuries later effectively disappear in the sea of their subjects. These tribes, now equipped with new weapons and technology, would have no problem attacking other Vinca conquered tribes, and even Vinca homeland itself...
    I actually can prove direct religious link from Vinca (3500 bc) to Delphi (800 bc). This will make a lot of things clearer...If there is a religious and cultural and linguistic continuity between Vinca and Serbs and Irish of today, then there is also a link between Vinca and "the celts"...

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Let me continue

    Who are the Irish?

    There is something very interesting about the Irish language. You have a lot of words which are pronounced and sometimes even spelled the same, and which have completely different unrelated meanings. This shows that Irish is a composite language. No language, which is not composite, has that characteristic. You have a lot of that in English and everyone knows that this is because English is a composite language. I believe that the same is the case with Irish. Believe or not, I bought the biggest Irish English dictionary I could find, and I read it cover to cover (mad I know). And you have this over and over again. But what you also have is lots of old words which were Gaelicised. You can see this if you compare them with the old Irish versions. Time after time you see the same pattern, where the original word was changed to confirm with the Gaelic language structure. And the last thing that I noticed is that there are many base terms, which should really be defined with one word, but which have multiple words in Irish. Again this is the sign of a composite language.

    This is completely in tune with the archaeological evidence, Irish historical records and genetic data.

    I read a very good book recently called "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory.

    James Patrick Mallory is an Irish-American archaeologist and Indo-Europeanist. Mallory is an emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies and Emania: Bulletin of the Navan Research Group (Belfast).

    What does he have to say about who today's Irish are?

    Basically no one knows. But what we do know is that there was definitely significant influx from both western Mediterranean and from south Baltic…

    There seemed to have been two Irelands:

    First one was Ireland of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings which was influenced from south Baltic region.
    Second one was the Ireland of Gaelic, Iverni, Milesians, Mil Espain, which was influenced from western Mediterranean region.

    I don’t know who the original inhabitants of Ireland were, but I know that for at least last 4500 years, there has been continuous transfer of people, cultures and languages from these two centres into Ireland. Ireland was never one country and one culture, and it still isn’t. There is a drastic difference between south west (Mediterranean) and north east (South Baltic) influenced part of Ireland. There is a drastic difference in cultures in these two parts of Ireland, starting from two different types of megalithic structures which belong to either western Mediterranean or Central European Southern Baltic types.

    The Iberians were according to the Irish chronicles the last to invade Ireland. They came and they burned and they destroyed and they plunged Ireland into a dark age. Do we have any evidence if this actually happen and when? We do. In "The Origins of the Irish" J. P. Mallory says that there is a sudden change in archaeological evidence which coincides with the beginning of the Iron Age in Ireland. It coincides with a massive depopulation of Ireland and switch from agriculture to flock herding. It also coincides with massive fortification and building of huge number of ring forts. So Gaels came and brought with them the Iron Age with all its beauties. It took Ireland couple of hundred years to recover.

    The fact that the Gaels were at war with the Tuatha, Fomorians and the other central European people is evident from the Irish annals, which were by the way all written by the victors of this great struggle, the Gaels. In these histories the old people (Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni) were portrayed as enemies, evil, devious, magicians who should not be trusted, powerful but corrupt and bad. However the kings of Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni are credited with bringing all the arts and crafts to Ireland, and are frequently found imbedded in genealogies of the main Gaelic ruling families. Is this an attempt of the invaders to legitimise themselves by claiming relation to the powerful and famous rulers of old? Or was there a genuine intermarrying between these two peoples? Probably both.

    The relationship between the Gaels and for instance the Tuatha is also evident from the Irish language:

    Tuata - Layman
    Tuath - people, tribe, laity
    Tuath - lay, rural
    Tuath - left, sinister, perverse, evil, malign
    Tuathack - king, lord, chieftain
    Tutahal - directed against the sun, wrong
    Tuathalach - towards left, sinister, awkward, slovenly

    Surely if Tuatha were Gaels, Tuath would not have such bad connotations in today's Gaelic Irish language?

    The cultural merging of these two Irelands probably started quite early. Both communities were tribal, so there was no real sense of us against them. They formed and dissolved tribal alliances which fought each other and probably consisted of clans from both peoples. Maybe not. But by the fact that they lived side by side they must have communicated, traded, intermarried (stole each other’s wives) which all contributed to language mixing. The all-out war between these two sides only started with arrival of Christianity. They supported the south of Ireland, which turned out be mostly Gaelic, Milesian, Mil Espain side, and they eventually took over most of Ireland and forced their culture and language on everyone else apart from the eastern part of Ireland where thanks to continuous migration from south Baltic we have a continuation of this non Gaelic culture which morphed into Viking and later into Anglo Irish culture.

    George Eogan is an Irish Archaeologist with particular interest in the Neolithic and Late Bronze Ages. A first degree at University College Dublin was followed by a doctoral thesis on Irish Late Bronze Age swords at Trinity College Dublin under Frank Mitchell. In the 1950's he worked with P.J. Hartnett on the Neolithic passage tomb at Fourknocks, and with Sean O Riordain at the Mound of the Hostages on the Hill of Tara. He was the Director of the Knowth Research Project and excavated at Knowth for more than 40 years as part of his investigation of the Passage Tomb builders in Ireland and Western Europe. Professor Eogan is a native of Nobber, Co. Meath in Ireland and has taught and lectured extensively on Irish archaeology.

    Recently he gave this interview to the Irish Times newspaper, after spending his whole life studying the old kingdom of Brega and Bru na Boinne:

    Here is one excerpt:
    How has the site weathered the past five millennia? Were subsequent inhabitants of the area respectful of it? Did they build over it?
    That’s a very interesting question. In fact, between the seventh and 12th centuries AD, the mound at Knowth was the royal residence of the kings of Northern Brega, which occupied roughly the northern half of the modern county of Meath.
    When you went down there in 1962, were you the first person to enter the tomb in 5,500 years or had previous generations pottered around in there?
    The kings of Northern Brega transformed the site into a protected settlement by digging two ditches. When they were digging, they discovered the entrance to the passage. Some people went in and scratched their names on the stones.
    What kind of names did people have in the seventh century?
    They weren’t like our names today. One name was Snedta, who was a male individual, we think.
    If he was carving his name all over the place, it was definitely a man.
    Yes, most likely. The other was Teistennach. They would both have been members of the Northern Brega kingdom.

    The point is, that we don’t know who the people were who lived in Brega kingdom in the period 7 - 12 century AD. We know they were different from today’s Irish and had strange names and probably even spoke a non-Gaelic language, but we just don’t know.

    If potentially non-Gaelic people had their kingdoms in medieval Ireland, then it is almost certain that they did control even bigger portions of Ireland in more distant past. This is evident from another very good book which I read recently. The book is called “Iverni: A Prehistory of Cork”.

    The book is written by Professor William O'Brien. Professor William O'Brien is a graduate of University College Cork where he completed doctoral research in 1987 on the subject of prehistoric copper mining. Prior to his appointment to the Cork chair in 2006, he lectured for 16 years in the Department of Archaeology, NUI Galway. His research interests include the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age in Ireland, early mining and metallurgy in Atlantic Europe, upland archaeology, the study of hillforts and all aspects of monumentality in the later prehistoric period. He has a particular interest in the prehistory of south-west Ireland, where he has conducted numerous research excavations. He has published widely on these topics, including books on his investigation of the Mount Gabriel mines, on wedge tomb landscapes, on his discovery of the Beaker copper mine at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, on early settlement landscapes and upland farming in the Beara Peninsula, and more recently the first general study of the prehistory of the Cork region.

    In his book he concludes that there was a definite border and a division between the Ivernian civilization and the rest of Ireland. This border is marked by disappearance of west Mediterranean type megaliths and appearance of Central European type megaliths. In my opinion this pretty much corresponds to the division between the Gaelic and non-Gaelic Ireland. So what was the effect of this cultural division?

    I believe that it is this cultural division of Ireland that leads to the situation where not all of the Irish language conforms to the Irish grammar. For instance Irish grammar says that when making compound words, you should always put adjectives after nouns. However there are lots of names in Ireland that do not confirm to that. Place names such as Dubh Linn ("black pool" = Dublin) and Leixlip ("salmon leap") were attributed to the Norse settlers who learned Irish had trouble with putting adjectives after nouns, so they often put them before the noun. This is exactly what happens when you force the new language on subjected population. They pick up the words but keep their own grammar. But this “non Gaelic Irish” language is present in all the old Irish texts, which shows that it predates the Norse, or more precisely the Dano-Slavs, as there were no Norse settlers in the Pale of Ireland only south Baltic ones. For instance Táin Bó Cúailnge, is filled with epithets like finnbennach "white-horned", dóeltenga "beetle-tongued", echbél "horse-lipped", rúadruca "red-blushing", and the like. I know that it wasn't written down until after the Vikings invaded but (a) the original core is thought to be much older and (b) there's precious little else in the work that could be ascribed to Norse influence. Moreover, we find this sort of composition in the earliest attestations of every Indo-European language, even if it later becomes obsolete. (Latin is an excellent example of this.) So I think you might be able to say that these sorts of compounds increased in areas of Norse influence (that's certainly the case in the North of France, for instance), but it's definitely an exaggeration to say that they originate with the Northmen. I however suspect that this could have something to do with the Central and North European influence which arrived to Ireland via south Baltic with of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings .

    It seems that these south Baltic people have been living in Ireland and Scotland from at least 4th century AD (the earliest "Viking" type houses were dated from that period, and the latest finds on the crannog in ulster are pushing this to the 2nd century ad). The artefacts and houses are of distinct south Baltic type and not the Norse type. But this influx of central European culture is much older and dates to at least 2500 bc, if we judge by the amber beads discovered in north Cork. And even older if we judge it by the age of central European type stone age structures which first appeared in Central Europe, then in the Baltic and then in Ireland.

    For instance, in Ireland you have names like RuaRi which uses word Rua for Red which is very close to Germano Slavic rud, rus and rua and not gaelic derg. In this name you also have adjective before the noun. This might be strange if you believe that all Irish were Gaels. But now that we know that they were not, it becomes something that you would expect to find.
    Interestingly enough most toponymes and hydronymes of Celtic origin in central Europe have adjective before the noun. Here are some examples:

    Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
    Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award). Proto celtic word is awa.

    In central Europe there are numerous rivers called Morava.

    Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = Mor Awa= big river

    Morava is the biggest river in Serbia and also in Czech republic. These rivers gave the name to the territory upper and lower Moravia .

    Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…

    In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river") which is the same as Mor Ava just using Gaelic grammar.

    Belgrade was in the distant past called Singi Dun. In Ireland most town names have word “dun” at the beginning like dun laoghaire.

    All of this is very interesting, and forces us, I believe, to make a decision who is a Celt and who is a Gael. I believe from everything I have discovered so far that Gaels were not Celts and that Gaelic language is not a Celtic language. I believe that today’s Irish language has a lot of central European Celtic characteristics, but that they did not come from Gaelic, but from the languages of the Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni. This is why we have the same words and grammar in continental Europe, but only the words in Ireland.
    So who are today the real carriers of Celtic language and Culture: Atlantic Bretons, Germanic and West Slavic nations of central Europe, or Gaelic people in Britain? I believe that it is a tossup…

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner

    The references at the end of the page in this link might be worth your while following up.

    Larssen,M. and Parker Pearson M. (eds.) 2007. From Stonehenge to the Baltic: cultural diversity in the third millennium BC.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    While we are here in the vicinity of Belgrade or Singi Dun, i will here repeat what i wrote on another thread here few years ago. At that time i only had a "strong feeling" that there is a link between the Irish and the Serbs.

    Irish expression “tar aish” or “tareis” means “after” or “beyond” as in these two sentences:

    Ta se deich noimead tar eis a naoi
    PRONOUNCED: Taw shay deh no/made tar aish a knee
    MEANING: It is ten minutes after nine
    Slainte go saol agat,
    Bean ar do mhian agat.
    Leanbh gach blian agat,
    is solas na bhflaitheas tareis antsail seo agat.

    roughly pronounced:
    Slancha ga sheil agat
    Ban ir da vian agat
    Toluv gan kis agat
    Lanov gach blean agat
    Iss solas na vlahas taraish antail sha agat.

    "Health for life to you,
    A wife of your choice to you,
    Land without rent to you,
    A child every year to you,
    And the light of heaven after this world for you."

    Near Belgrade there are two villages, Železnik and Vranic, which both have parts called “taraiš” pronounced “taraish” situated after or beyond the village boundaries. These villages are long and narrow situated on top of wavy hills. Zeleznik in Serbian means “iron town” or “iron place” or “iron works” or “smelting plant”. In medieval chronicles the place is described as once being the major iron and silver processing center. Roman sarcophagus belonging to a Decurion from second century was found near the village. This means that Zeleznik was important enough to have a military garrison stationed in it, probably because it was still an metallurgical center in Roman time. Between Zeleznik and Vranic, on another hill which runs parallel to the other two is a village of Sremcica where the iron ore was mined. Old iron mines were discovered there in the middle of the 20th century...

    So next to Singi Dun (20 km) there is an important Iron production area, where people call the area beyond the village land taraish -Tar Eis (beyond), and call the village boundary taraba which could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home and here is what those people call their homes:

    Kuća - Kutja = house

    This word has no etymology in Slavic languages. There is a proposed etymology stemming from word "Kut" which means angle. In Serbian there is a word Kutija which mean angular container, so Kutja could be angular house. And i agree that the first part of the word kutja comes from kut. But i believe that the ending tja comes from Irish word for a house "teach" pronounced "tjak". So kutja becomes kut tjak - angular rectangular house, as opposed to oval house. Is there any evidence that a word "tjak" or "tja" was or is used in the Balkans for a house? There is. In Dalmatia they still say "idem ća" - "idem tja" = i am going home, i am going away. In Serbian there is a word "čatrlja" which means small house made of daub and wattle.
    What is also interesting is that in Serbian a word "dom", which is a word for home also has an interesting etymology. In Serbian it can be broken like this:

    dom = do + m = do + me = do + mene = to me, what belongs to me, what is with me, next to me = my things = home.

    Let's have a look at Irish:

    diom (dom)= to, at
    mo = me
    diom + mo = diommo = diomo = to me, at me, what belongs to me, what surrounds me

    I don't believe that this just a coincidence, because it goes on and on and on like this....More to come :)

    ps: Here is a very interesting investigation into original round houses. They look so much like old beehives my grand father used to have...Same principal building technique.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    One question is always asked when you present people with a possible long term culture continuity in a place where there is evidence of violent cultural endings, and replacements.

    What i propose is that there was a continuation as well as succession going on. For instance just because my son has a Serbian father, this doesn't mean he is not Irish as well, as his mother is Irish. Women and cattle were what the "Indo Europeans" always kept, after destroying everything else and killing the men. Women bring up kids, and thus pass on the culture and the language. In "The Origins of the Irish", J. P. Mallory talks about these bands of priests, smiths and warriors which roamed the world in the early copper and bronze age, looking for new lands to take. No women were part of those invasions, they were taken from the conquered people. This is one custom that survived all the way to today through the custom of wife kidnapping and so called "wolf weddings" in the Balkans...

    Also there is no way that without cultural continuity we would have both copper, bronze and iron being invented and first industrially produced in the exactly the same spot, in today's Serbia, in the old Vinca land. Metallurgy is such a complex craft that it requires in dept knowledge of many related skills and sciences. For this to be passed on without written teaching material, you need long term tutoring. For this you need continuity. I accept as a possibility that maybe one of early Vinca colonies in the north east have formed the "Indo Europens" (what ever this is, because it is still just a term hotly debated and disputed). I did say that what i found points to them being organized into tribes, wolf packs, knightly orders, fiana, what ever you want to call it. So they went out and formed new tribes. I can accept that one of those tribes then came back to old Vinca land, conquered it and continued where Vinca stopped. But this is still continuity.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi guys

    This is my last post for next ten days. I am away to the land of Serbs and will have no internet access (thank god).

    The “Garmans” are coming

    Once upon a time, the whole of north-western Europe was crisscrossed with a complex network of wooden roads. These roads were needed in order to cross the boggy and soggy lands of northern Europe, and became a necessity when wheeled carts were invented and introduced into the north of Europe.
    The first routes in Ireland were prehistoric trackways, some of which were later developed into roads suited for wheeled vehicles. Many of Ireland's minor roads “may well have had their origin in pre-existing paths and trackways aligned in direct response to the physical environment.” Traces of these evolved roads which developed over very long periods, frequently from tracks of the prehistoric period, are still evident. The routes of such roads usually followed the natural landscape, following the tops of ridges and crossing rivers and streams at fording points.[1]
    There is almost no evidence that large roads were constructed in Ireland during the Stone Age. However, a very large oval henge enclosure, thought to date from c. 2500 BC (the Neolithic period) may possibly have had an ancient roadway associated with it. The henge was discovered at the Hill of Tara archaeological complex in geophysical surveys carried out between 1999 and 2001. It is unlikely that any roadway from this period would have been used as a transport route.[2][3] Excavations carried out at Edercloon, Co. Longford in advance of road construction discovered a dense "network of wooden trackways and platforms, which were constructed from the Neolithic (c. 4000-c. 2200BC) to the early medieval period (c. AD 400-790)."[4]

    So the earliest wooden track way in Ireland was discovered next to a henge in Brega area, near Tabor breg. Henge is a central European type megalithic structure. They originate in central Europe in the same area which later became the Celtic heartland.
    Prague - Czech archaeologists have uncovered four prehistoric rondel enclosures, two of which are the largest in Europe, within an unprecedented extensive research accompanying the construction of a motorway bypass of Kolin, central Bohemia, chief researcher Radka Sumberova told CTK today.

    After examining 40 hectares on land, the experts gathered hundreds of thousands of finds. The most important ones include the four rondel enclosures. The enclosures, of a circle or oval shape and usually of 50 to 200 metres in diameter, appeared in Europe in the Neolithic period. Their inner space was not inhabited. Experts believe they might have served for cult, military or trade purposes. Over 100 rondel enclosures have been uncovered in Europe to date, including several in the Czech Republic.

    Two of the enclosures that archaeologists have uncovered near Kolin are 214 and 230 meters in diameter. The former was surrounded by four ditches, the biggest being 4.5m deep and 14m long, Sumberova said. The other two enclosures uncovered within the Kolin research in the past two years are 80 and 75 meters in diameter.

    Besides Neolithic finds, the experts uncovered a number of valuable remains of settlements from the Paleolithic period, from the Bronze and Iron Ages, from the Roman era and the early Middle Ages, Sumberova said.

    Experts will further examine all finds.

    What are rondel enclosures?
    A number of approximately 120–150 Neolithic earthworks enclosures are known in Central Europe. They are called Kreisgrabenanlagen("circular ditched enclosures") in German, or alternatively as roundels (or "rondels"; German Rondelle; sometimes also "rondeloid", since many are not even approximately circular). They are mostly confined to the Elbe and Danube basins, in modern-day Germany,Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, as well as the adjecent parts of Hungary and Poland, in a stretch of Central European land some 800 km (500 mi) across.[2] They date to the first half of the 5th millennium BC; they are associated with the late Linear Pottery culture and its local successors, the Stroke-ornamented ware (Middle Danubian) and Lengyel (Moravian Painted Ware) cultures. The best known and oldest of these Circular Enclosures is the Goseck circle, constructed c. 4900 BC.

    So these henges, rondel enclosures originate in central Europe, in middle Danube area (Danube again) and Morava area (Morava again). They are a lot more common in Central Europe and predate the henges found in the British Isles. This means that the culture that built these megaliths came from Central Europe via Baltic to British Isles.

    Here is an example of one of those Central European henges:

    Here is a link to the page about English henges:

    And here is an example from Ireland:

    These megalithic structures are linked to Stroke-ornamented ware (Middle Danubian) culture. This culture is a continuation of the Linear pottery culture.

    This Linear pottery culture is through a particular type of bread ovens and houses directly linked to the West Slavic cultures of central Europe of the medieval time:
    These so called bread ovens are known from a number of sites in central Europe that are dated from the 7th-12th centuries (Skružny 1963, 1980 ; Vignatiová 1992). A find of this type is usually represented by a hole sunk into a loess soil with the highest vaulting of 40-60 cm, red-burnt walls of 5-10 cm and a grey-burnt bottom, sometimes stone-lined.

    3The bottom ground plan is usually of renal, semi-circular up to round shape, east-west oriented.

    4From later periods (13 th century) it is documented that slightly modified ovens with an underground heating duct can serve for food-smoking (Skružny 1980). Archaeological finds of bread ovens are usually excavated on the margin of a settled area outside of the houses (Skružny, Vignatiová 1992, p. 90) or they are sunk into the wall of a dwelling (e.g. Breclav-Pohansko : Vignatiová 1992, fig. 3). The ovens outside the dwellings and the site area are known from Neolithic sites in Slovakia : in Pác near Trnava (Kolník 1977) or in Horné Lefantovce (Bánesz 1962). These finds were recently enriched by a new exceptional site where ovens from 11 th-12 th century were excavated in the vicinity (ca. 150 m) of the similar ones from the Late Stone Age (6 th millenium B.C.) belonging to the Linear-Pottery culture people. These ovens were revealed in Borovce, distr. of Piest’any, Slovakia, and the finds have not been published yet. The particular situation of Borovce has offered a chance to compare these finds, similar in types but different in history as well as in culture.

    This again shows cultural continuity in central Europe from the earliest pre Indo European times to today.

    Now that we know who invented henges and wooden track ways, let’s get back to the wooden roads:
    Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C."[5] An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles.[5] A one kilometre (0.6 mile) section of a wooden trackway, three feet (approx. 1 metre) wide, was surveyed at Corlona Bog inCo. Leitrim in the 1950s. The trackway was dated to approximately 1500 BC but its narrow width makes it unlikely that it was used by wheeled vehicles.[5] Similar wooden trackways and roads are known from all over Ireland from the Late Bronze Age. One example from Ballyalbanagh, Co. Antrim was seven feet (2 metres) wide and made from oak beams and planks: "its width suggests provision for cart or wagon transport."[5]

    The best examples of these track ways in Europe are in the south Baltic and in east Ireland. The way they were constructed is so different and superior to the rest of the roads found, that archaeologists have long “suspected” that they could have only been built by the same people. But because history says that there has been no migration from south Baltic to Ireland at the time these roads were built, the possibility that they might have been built by the same people was discarded.

    Now if we disregard the official history (again), we can plainly see that these roads were built in Ireland by the immigrants from south Baltic. Not just by the fact that they used the same technique to build them, but by the fact that both were built in the area populated by the people with the same name: Cauci (Chauci). Who are these Cauci (Chauci)?

    The Cauci (Καῦκοι) were a people of early Ireland, uniquely documented in Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography, which locates them roughly in the region of modern County Dublin and County Wicklow.[1]
    The Chauci (German: Chauken, and identical or similar in other regional modern languages) were an ancient Germanic tribe living in the low-lying region between the Rivers Ems and Elbe, on both sides of the Weser and ranging as far inland as the upper Weser. Along the coast they lived on artificial hills called terpen, built high enough to remain dry during the highest tide. A dense population of Chauci lived further inland, and they are presumed to have lived in a manner similar to the lives of the other Germanic peoples of the region.
    Their ultimate origins are not well understood. In the Germanic pre-Migration Period (i.e., before c. 300 AD) the Chauci and the relatedFrisians, Saxons, and Angles inhabited the Continental European coast from the Zuyder Zee to south Jutland.

    So this is why we can’t have these road builder with the same name be the same people. Because that would mean that Germanic tribes inhabited East Ireland in the 2. Century. What would that do to the story of “Celtic Ireland”?
    But that is surely a coincidence. Maybe they just have similar names and are completely different people? Let’s see how far we can stretch this coincidence:

    If you look at Ptolemy’s map of Ireland, you see that south from Cauci, you find these tribes: Menapii, Coriodni, Brigantes, Vodiae.

    Do we find Menapii anywhere else? We do, right next and below the Chauci in the Rhine region.
    The Menapii were a Belgic tribe of northern Gaul in pre-Roman and Roman times. Their territory according to Strabo,Caesar and Ptolemy stretched from the mouth of the Rhine in the north, and southwards along the west of the Schelde.

    Now interestingly enough they are a “belgic” tribe. So we have a Belbic and Germanic people living in two places next to each other. This opens a big question (again as I am not the first to open it) :
    Was there a difference between Belgic (Celtic) tribes and Germanic tribes, or are the Germans just Celts that Romans did not conquer?
    In Ireland, just under the Manapii tribe you find Coriondi, who we also find in England and according to names study probably in Gaul as well, and I say probably next to Menapii.
    The Coriondi (Κοριονδοί) were a people of early Ireland, referred to in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in southern Leinster.[1]MacNeill identifies a later Irish group, the Coraind, in the Boyne valley, who may be the same people.[2] Other possibly related names include the Corcu Cuirnd,[2] Cuirennrige and Dál Cuirind in early medieval Ireland, and in Britain, the Corionototae, known from an inscription inHexham, Northumberland, and Corinion, the Brythonic name for Cirencester, Gloucestershire.[1] The element *corio- also occurs in Gaulish personal and tribal names, usually taken to mean an army or troop of warriors [3]

    Under Coriondi we find Brigantes, who are also found in England, and in the Alps.
    The Brigantes were a Celtic tribe who in pre-Roman times controlled the largest section of what would become Northern England, and a significant part of the Midlands. Their kingdom is sometimes called Brigantia, and it was centred in what was later known as Yorkshire. Ptolemy lists the Brigantes also as a tribe in Ireland, where they could be found around Wexford,Kilkenny and Waterford[1] while another probably Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo as a sub-tribe of theVindelici in the region of the Alps.[2]

    Ander Brigantes we find Vodiae or Vodii or Udiae:

    What we see is that we have the same Celto-Belgo-Germanic people settling one next to the other in:
    1. South Baltic area, the same areas from which Ango-Saxons, and later Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade England.
    2. North England, the same area that Ango-Saxons, and later Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade and settle in England
    3. East Ireland, the same area Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade and settle in Ireland.

    But there are not supposed to have been any Germanic or Ango-Saxon tribes in Ireland. Yet the territory of county Wexford, settled by Menapii is in Gaelic called: “Loch Garman”.

    Here is what the Irish have to say about the name Loch Garman.
    Wexford lies on the south side of Wexford Harbour, the estuary of the River Slaney. According to a local legend, the town got its Irish name, Loch Garman, from a young man named Garman Garbh who was drowned on the mudflats at the mouth of the River Slaney by flood waters released by an enchantress. The resulting loch or lough was thus named, Loch Garman.

    However it is a lot more plausible that the Gaels called the teritory by the name of its inhabitants, the Lock of Garmans (Germans). 19th century English historians thought so.

    Ptolemy calls Wexford town by its real name Menppia, the town of Menpii.

    Quite interesting are the Vodii as well. In modern Gaelic Irish the word for water is “uisce” pronounced “ishka”. However I believe that once there was another word for water, which has central European origin: “bwo” or “bwa” or “bwoa”. This word is the route of the word for water (English), wasser (Serman), and (Voda) Slavic. I believe that it is hidden in the following word:

    bá (bvao) – Bay, great expense of water, flooding, drowning, immersion, quenching of thirst

    The area inhabited by the Vodii, whose name in Serbian would mean water people, is today called Waterford.

    There is also in Irish annals a story about an Irish prince of Leinster was exiled to Continental Europe and, befriending the foreign king, he returned with an army of "long spears" which, in Gaelic, was at the origin of the province name of Leinster.
    Early Irish historical traditions credited the founding of the Laigin to the legendary High King Labraid Loingsech. His grandfather,Lóegaire Lorc, had been overthrown by his own brother, Cobthach Cóel Breg, and Labraid forced into exile. After a period of military service on the continent, Labraid returned to Ireland at the head of an army, known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads (láigne) they carried. The Lebor Gabála Érenn dates Labraid's accession to 300 BC.[3][4][5] Modern historians suggest, on the basis of these traditions and related placenames, that the Laigin were a group of invaders from Gaul or Britain, who arrived no later than the 6th century BC, and were later incorporated into the medieval genealogical scheme which made all the ruling groups of early Ireland descend from Míl Espáine. Placenames also suggest they once had a presence in north Munster and in Connacht.[6]

    Now what is the name for a spear in in old Germanic languages? The word for spear in Germanic languages is “gar”. Which would mean that Garman is a Gar man which means a Spear man. So back to Lock Garman again, and this time in the country of the spear men we have a town of the spear men.
    gar: From Middle English gar, gare, gere, gore, from Old English gār (“spear, dart, javelin, shaft, arrow, weapon, arms”), from Proto-Germanic *gaizaz (“spear, pike, javelin”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰayso- (“pointed stick, spear”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰey- (“to drive, move, fling”). Cognate with West Frisian gear, Dutch geer (“pointed weapon, spear”), German Ger (“spear”), Norwegian geir (“spear”), Icelandic geir (“spear”). Related to gore.
    Old Irish has gae "spear"

    Which leads me to an inevitable question: Does German actually just mean a Spearman? And are Germanic tribes just tribes of people armed with Gars, Spears???

    But we have completely forgotten the wooden roads.
    According to an entry in the Annals of the Four Masters for AD 123, there were five principal highways (Irish: slighe) leading to Tara (Irish: Teamhair) in Early Medieval Ireland. The entry in the Annals claims that these routes were 'discovered' at the birth of Conn of the Hundred Battles:
    The night of Conn's birth were discovered five principal roads leading to Teamhair, which were never observed till then. These are their names: Slighe Asail, Slighe Midhluachra, Slighe Cualann, Slighe Mhór, Slighe Dala. Slighe Mhór is that called Eiscir Riada, i.e. the division line of Ireland into two parts, between Conn and Eoghan Mór.[9]
    In reality, "the ancient road system (such as it was - there cannot have been a developed national system) fanned out not from Tara but from Dublin.".[7]

    So the system of wooden roads was leading from and to Dublin, the centre of the Spear people land and also the centre of Cauci land.
    Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C."[5] An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles.[5]

    So these wooden roads are specifically built for disc wheeled cart traffic.

    In Ireland these roads are called “An Tochar" pronounce “tokar”. There is a village in the Wicklow mountains called Roundwood. Its Irish name is Tochar.

    In Serbian there is a word “toka”, which means something disk like. There is also a verb “tokariti”, which means working material by spinning it and applying force from the side, which produces round, disc objects, like round wooden beams used for making disk cart wheels for which “tochar” roads were made. Was the name for these disc wheels “toka”? And does “tochar” mean a road for disc wheeled carts?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus

    Now that was a fine days reading for me. Thanks Dublinviking and enjoy your holiday.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    Hmm. I think the idea of title of your post has some merit, ie due to the east west spread of indo european languages, farming and whatever group that brought the y dna haplogroup R1b to Western Europe and the area that is now the Balkans being an entry point for these groups to Central Europe then you would expect some low level similarities that originated a long time ago.
    However i think you are taking the idea of a special link between the Irish and the Serbs too far.
    I don't get the signifigance of Iron Age groups like the Brigantes, Menapii and Caucaudi.
    I read Mallorys's recent book and thought it was a great summary of what is known to date although the DNA stuff is out if date.
    I also share his skepticism regarding the book if invasions (the Nemedians sailed from the Caspian Sea), basically it was composed to link the Irish to Scythians and ultimately christianity. How is it known that the Tuatha de Danann and milesians spoke different languages?
    I don't think there us any great mystery of Irish origins but there is a need by some Irish people to see us as different, most likely trying to down play our similarities to Britain.
    I also think it is very simplistic to try to link mono syllabic words of different languages, do these similarities exist in other languages, what about differences, are there svo features in Serbian etc
    Bob Quinn thinks gaelic shares features with Berber languages.
    Mallory reckons this is possible as pre celtic languages there may have been an afro asiatic language spoken in Ireland brought with farming that is substrate to Gaelic.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible

    i've only read the title of the thread, and not a lot else. the only reason i clicked on it was i'm only after reading this article, 'European and Asian languages traced back to single mother tongue' might be a few interesting/ relevent links off it

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi all I am back. Thanks for reading and contributing to this thread.

    I have few answers for ipso
    Hmm. I think the idea of title of your post has some merit, ie due to the east west spread of indo european languages, farming and whatever group that brought the y dna haplogroup R1b to Western Europe and the area that is now the Balkans being an entry point for these groups to Central Europe then you would expect some low level similarities that originated a long time ago.

    I don't believe that the link between the Irish and the Serbs is linked to R1b. I believe it is linked to I2. I believe that I2 was the haplogroup of the central European Celts and the old Europe. R1b is the carrier of the Gaelic culture and I believe that it did not come from the Balkans but from Iberia. The distribution of the central European Celtic and the old European cultural remains are opposite to the distribution of the R1b. But this is far from certain, just very likely.
    I don't get the signifigance of Iron Age groups like the Brigantes, Menapii and Caucaudi.

    It is very important because it identifies the mysterious Fomori who are so important and so little known. It also provides a link to the other spear people of iron age Europe. But more about it soon.
    I read Mallorys's recent book and thought it was a great summary of what is known to date although the DNA stuff is out if date. I also share his skepticism regarding the book if invasions (the Nemedians sailed from the Caspian Sea), basically it was composed to link the Irish to Scythians and ultimately christianity.

    It is very easy to sale from Caspian Sea to Ireland. The old Caspian Sea - Baltic sea - Ireland trading rout was last used by Varangians in the medieval time. I find it very interesting that in Gaelic texts there are so many references to Varangians, which according to the official history should never have set foot in Ireland...

    Here you have a text about the Volga trade rout:
    How is it known that the Tuatha de Danann and milesians spoke different languages?

    It isn't. It is my hypothesis. It is based on description of these two cultures in Irish texts and the fact that they came from two opposite sides of Europe and that they were in constant state of warfare. There is a possibility that they spoke the same language, but it is a lot more likely that they didn't.
    I don't think there us any great mystery of Irish origins but there is a need by some Irish people to see us as different, most likely trying to down play our similarities to Britain.

    Actually there is a big mystery surrounding the origin of the Irish race. If you think about what i am writing here, the question is not whether Irish are different from the English, but whether south west Irish are different from the north eastern Irish.
    I also think it is very simplistic to try to link mono syllabic words of different languages, do these similarities exist in other languages, what about differences, are there svo features in Serbian etc

    I have only started to present my finds. There are hundreds of words, in linked clusters, which are the same. There are clusters of words with root in Irish but all the other words in Serbian and the other way round. And we are talking about words linked to origins of agriculture, food preparation, language, writing, reading, weapons, genitals and other body parts, slang words and insults....Grammatical rules which are found in Irish but not in English and Germanic languages are also present in Serbian, but not in other Slavic languages....There are of course differences and that is to be expected because Irish and Serbian are now completely different languages. Also there are parallels in Germanic languages. All this points to the Central European root language for all these languages, which influenced Germanic and Slavic languages but was mostly preserved in Irish and Serbian.

    Bob Quinn thinks gaelic shares features with Berber languages. Mallory reckons this is possible as pre celtic languages there may have been an afro asiatic language spoken in Ireland brought with farming that is substrate to Gaelic.

    I read his book and i think he is quite right about it. And that is probably the same R1b Gaelic Atlantic cultural source which came from south west.

    Anyway this is just the beginning of my presentation. I believe things will get clearer as we go on...

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont

    That was fascinating reading. Very interesting.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso

    The fomor are most likely vikings or sea raiders hence all the derogatory terms. they are also referred to as lochlann meaning from land of the lakes. The idea of the Balkans being a gateway for new cultures coming into Europe is sound but why focus on picking two specific modern groups out of many?
    Gaels didn't necessarily arrive in Ireland, Gael was term given to existing groups of Irish people by the Welsh.
    North East Irish ate probably different to South West Irish because they're closer to Scotland. There is really no mystery.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    for ipso
    The fomor are most likely vikings or sea raiders hence all the derogatory terms.

    You are closer to the truth here than you think. They are indeed the south Baltic people, Western Slavs, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Balts. But they came to Ireland much earlier than the Vikings, probably even before the Iron Age. But they didn't raid anyone. They lived in Eastern Ireland and brought culture, old gods like Crom Dubh, arts, crafts...They were so important that all the most important clans claim to have some descent from Fomory. Irish historians agree that their name is not Gaelic and that means probably people of the see, or people who came from across the see, or see pirates. Where could have been that land across the see famous for its see pirates whose name sounds like fomori, and which is also known for its culture and technology and wood structure building during bronze and iron age?

    There is a country like that. It is south Baltic part of Germany, called Pomerania or Pomorje (Land by the see, the coast) as it was known to the people who gave it it's name and who called themselves Pomorjani, Pomori (see people, coast people). These Obodrites, West Slavic or Wendish people were famous see pirates and traders and one of their main tribes was called Vagri or Warangs, Warings, Warangi as they were called by the Franks. They were part of the Angle federation during Anglo Saxon invasions, and part of the Danish federation during the Viking invasions. I will talk about them more when i talk about Crom Dubh. Because when these people came to Ireland, they brought with them their main god, terrible Crom Dubh, or as it is still known among the Serbs Hromi Daba, The lame wolf, the wolf Shepard, the father of the Serbs... But this is too important to just gloss over...

    they are also referred to as lochlann meaning from land of the lakes.

    Or maybe this just means people who dwell on lakes on cranogs. Lake dwellings were extremely common in the south Baltic among the Slavs and Balts even in the medieval time, but not among the Danes and the Norse. As a matter of fact a few lake dwellings found in Scandinavia are attributed to the Slavs...

    The idea of the Balkans being a gateway for new cultures coming into Europe is sound but why focus on picking two specific modern groups out of many?

    I already explained this. Gaelic and Serbian are so different and so distant geographically, linguistically and culturally that any overlaps would point to some so far unknown or undocumented transfer rout. The huge amount of overlaps points to these two people living together for a long period of time. The last time and place when that could have happened is either in Ireland during the time of Pomori, Angles, Vikings, which is a plausible possibility, but one that would require rewriting of the Irish history :)
    The other time and place when the mix could have existed is Balkans before Iron Age. Some of the very early Balkan gods can be explained through this Irish-Serbian layer particularly all the spear gods of the old world. This would require rewriting pretty much the whole European history :)

    I think its both and we will have to do a lot of rewriting. How fitting for the year of gathering to discover new cousins :)
    Gaels didn't necessarily arrive in Ireland, Gael was term given to existing groups of Irish people by the Welsh.

    We live on an island of an island of mainland. Everyone here arrived from somewhere at some stage...Gaels didn't just spring out of cabbages...And it is probably just the name given to the "people from Ireland who spoke that strange language" by the welsh and the Anglo Saxons...
    North East Irish ate probably different to South West Irish because they're closer to Scotland. There is really no mystery.

    When i say mystery i mean it has managed to evade the historians so far. You will not find this in any history books in Ireland or in Serbia or anywhere else for that matter. Maybe no one bothered comparing these fringe people before...

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins

    Fascinating stuff. Can't wait for more, dublinviking.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    The Origin of Anglo – Saxon race

    In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore, author of 'a history of Hampshire,' etc, Honorary secretary London and Middlesex archaeological society; honorary Organising secretary of the Hampshire field club and Archaeological society, gives detailed analysis of the “Anglo Saxons”, and shows us that both Angles and Saxons were just terms used for complex federations of south Baltic Germanic, Norse and West Slavic tribes. He describes the late Iron Age and early medieval northern central Europe as a melting pot where future great nations of Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norse, were being created from tribal federations of mixed Germanic and Slavic ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin. This is what the Origin of Anglo – Saxon race has to say about the Franks:
    The name Frank supplies a good example. This was the name of a great confederation,all the members of it agreeing in calling themselves free.
    Hence, instead of assuming migrations (some historically improbable) to account for the Franks of France, the Franks of Franche-comte, and the Franks of Franconia, we may simply suppose them to be Franks of different divisions of the Frank confederation i.e., people of various great tribes united under a common designation. Again, the Angli are grouped with the Varini, not only as neighbouring nations on the east coast of Schleswig, but in the matter of laws under their later names, Angles and Warings. Similarly, we read of Goths and Vandals, of Frisians and Chaucians, of Goths and Burgundians, of Engles and Swaifas, of Franks and Batavians, of Wends and Saxons, of Frisians and Hunsings; and as we read of a Frank confederation, there was practically a Saxon one. In later centuries, under the general name of Danes, we are told by Henry of Huntingdon of Danes and Goths, Norwegians and Swedes, Vandals and Frisians, as the names of those people who desolated England for 230 years. 3 The later Saxon confederation is that which was opposed to Charlemagne, but there was certainly an earlier alliance, or there were common expeditions of Saxons and people of other tribes acting together in the invasion of England under the Saxon name.

    One of the people who formed Saxon federation were Chauci. Thomas William Shore says this about Chauci:
    We can trace various tribes of ancient Frisians viz., the Hunsings, the Brocmen, the Huntanga, and the Chaucians or Hocings, and others. These people appear all to have been designated at times as Frisians, and at other times by their own special or tribal names. The Chaucians, however, were a populous race, and may be regarded in some respects as a separate nation in close connection with, and never in opposition to, the Frisians. They were seated in the country between the Weser and the Elbe. The name Cuxhaven at the mouth of the Elbe is one which was probably derived from the Chaucians, and has come down to us as that of a place situated in their old country.
    Among the tribes or allies of the Frisians the most important was the Chauci or Chaucians. Tacitus men- tions them as living on both sides of the Weser. Those settled between the Weser and the Elbe he called Chauci majores ; and those on the west of the Weser, but higher up the river, Chauci minor es. 2 His description of them is that of a considerable nation. He says that the land from Hessia was under the dominion of, and inhabited by, Chauci. He has left two accounts of them somewhat different, but that in his ' Germania ' is believed to have been written later than that in his ' Annals,' or ' History,' and it may well have been that before writing his later account he had had opportunities of learning more about them and correcting his previous statements. He says that the Chauci never excited wars nor harassed their neighbours, and that they wished to support their grandeur by justice. This description agrees with the character of the Frisians, and may perhaps be taken to refer also to them. The accounts which Tacitus gives of the German people between the Rhine and the Elbe are of more value than that of those beyond the Elbe, for in the former case he wrote from information collected from people who had actually travelled through the countries, which in the latter was probably not the case, as the countries were further removed from the Roman influence.
    The question may here suggest itself : What have these Chauci or Chaucians to do with the English settlement ? I see no reason to doubt that they had a considerable share in it. Kemble found near Stade, in the part of ancient Frisia occupied by the Chaucians, and also far up the Weser, certain mortuary urns of a kind that is rare or unknown in other parts of Germany, but known to occur in Suffolk, Warwickshire, Derbyshire, the Isle of Wight, and other parts of England, and the Chaucian name apparently survives in many old English place-names.
    Ptolemy's account of these people agrees in regard to their locality with that of Tacitus. He says that they were contiguous to the Frisii, and, like them, extended along the coast, but also further inland. He tells us also that the Frisii lay in front of the Angrivarii, who, as we have seen, were a tribe of the Saxons, for these Angrivarii of the earlier centuries were the same as the Angarians or Engern people of Carlovingian time. Ptolemy says that the Chauci reached to the Elbe. The survival of such a name as Cuxhaven in their old country is significant, the first syllable Cux having come form Chauc. This etymology, which has generally been adopted, is important in reference to the traces of the Chaucians which may be found in England. Here in an ancient Chaucian region a survival of the old tribal or national name exists in the form Cux. In various parts of England where Frisians settled we shall also find it.
    The name under which the Chaucians are mentioned in the Sagas is that of Hocings. In Beowulf we read of them under this name. Word for word, says Latham, this word Hoeing is held to be that of Chauci by all, or most, who have written on the subject. Hoeing, however, with its suffix -ing, means not so much a Chaucus as of Chauch blood. 1 The identity of the names is established by the ancient sound of ch being equivalent to that of h. This identification will be of use in endeavouring to unravel the threads in the tangled skein of information which has come down to us relating to the people concerned in the English settlement. The Chauci as a nation have long since disappeared, and were probably absorbed by the Franks of Germany. Some of them, no doubt, migrated to England, where they were absorbed in the Old English race. If we look for traces of them in England through the names by which they were known in their Continental home, we shall discover many parts of the country in which small colonies of them probably settled. As regards their alternative name Hocings, philologists give us several examples of the equivalence of the early ch and h sounds in these tribal or national names. South of the Chauci another great tribe of German people known as the Chatti were situated, from which, according to German philologists, in which others concur, the name Hesse has been derived. The Hessians are the descendants of the ancient Chatti or Hatti. They are mentioned under the names Chattuarii, Attuarii, and Hetware. In the name Attuarii, as Latham has pointed out, the ch sound disappears altogether. Hesse also, says Latham, word for word is Chatti. The Old Frisian ch was equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon h. We may therefore accept the identity of the sounds chauc- and hoc- in the names Chauci and Hocings, and this will be of interest in reference to traces of them in England. At some time during the period of the growth of the Frank confederation the Chaucians assumed the name of Franks, and their name disappeared from history.
    Among Domesday names of significance in reference to Frisians of the Chaucian tribe are Cochinges and Cocheha. As in some other counties in which there are traces of Wendish settlers, we find a place-name containing the root sem, probably derived from the old Slavonic word for land. It occurs in the Domesday place-name Semlintun.
    The number of places in Sussex whose names bear a resemblance to Frisian names is remarkable. The terminal pronunciation of some of them in -urn and -un also resembles the Frisian. In Friesland we find Dokkum, Workum, Bergum, Akkrum, Wierum, Hallum, Ulrum, Loppersum, Makkum, Bedum, and others of the same kind. In Sussex we find Horsham (locally pronounced Horsum and Hawsom), Hailsham (Helsum), Sedlecombe (Selzcum), Friston (Frissun), Cocking (Cokkun), Lillington (Linkun). 1 The indications pointing to Frisians in this county are sufficient to show that people of this nation must have settled among the South Saxons.
    That there were among these Frisians tribal Hunsings and Chaucians is probable from such family names as Friston, Hunston, the Domesday names Cocheha, Cokkefeld, and the numerous similar names, Cuckmere, Cuckfield, Cocking, Cockhais, Cockshut stream, Cokeham (a hamlet of Sompting), and Cooksbridge, north of Lewes. These latter, which may be compared with Cuxhaven in the old country of the Chaucians and similar names in various parts of England, point to family settlements of these tribal people.
    Swaefes heale points to Saxons settled in East Berkshire, with Scandians, Wends, and Goths as their neighbours.
    In this part of the country we also find the significant name of Cookham, mentioned in an Anglo-Saxon charter as Coccham, in Domesday Book as Cocheham. As already pointed out, a similar name Ceokan-ege occurs in an early charter relating to Battersea. There are many examples which show that the sounds g and k were interchangeable in names of the Anglo-Saxon period. Higher up the valley we find similar names viz., Cuxham, Coxwell, and others. These apparently have a common source, in the tribal name of the Chaucians, the Frisian tribe near the mouth of the Elbe.
    The Chaucians, as previously mentioned, were also called Hocings, and both forms of their name are probably met with in place-names in the Thames valley. Hocheston, now part of London, is the Domesday name for Hoxton, and may denote the settlement of a Chaucian. In the eastern part of Berkshire we find separate hundreds mentioned in the Hundred Rolls for Sonning, Bray, Cogham or Cookham, and Windsor. This Cogham hundred of the thirteenth century may be a survival of a more ancient separate local administration, as the hundreds of Bray, Sunninges, and Windsor may be, of the original settlers at these places. Another entry under the name Cocheham occurs in Domesday Book in Burnham hundred in Buckinghamshire, not far from the Berkshire place of this name, so that some of this family or kindred appear to have lived on both sides of the river.

    Now what this shows us is that we can find the Cauci, Chauci not only in South Baltic and in Leinster in Ireland, but also among the Anglo Saxons in England. These are the same areas where we later find the Dano Slavic Vikings of Danelaw.

    I recommend the book as a must read for anyone who wants to understand the Iron Age and early medieval Baltic and its relationship with British Isles and Ireland. You can find the book here:

    It opened my eyes and showed me the link between the Iron Age invasions and Viking invasions of British Isles. It also shows the extent of intermixing between the Germanic and Slavic people of the South Baltic area.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Cauci, Garmen, Slavs, Celts and wolf people
    The Chauci (or Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci) formed a relatively large Germanic tribe, comparable to the early Frisians in number. By the second century they were located in the far north-western corner of modern Germany, between the lower Rhine and the Elbe. To the south were the Tencteri and Usipetes, to the south-west were the Bructeri and Chamavi, with the coastal Frisii to the west, and the Aviones (Eowan) and Reudingi (Rondings) to the north, across the Elbe.
    The early Indo-European Germanic tribes may have originated in southern Scandinavia (modern Sweden). In the early first century AD, Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, and Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with theJutes). Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'. Alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson).
    The construction 'Ger-man' breaks down into 'ger' (still used in English as 'gar', the name of a fish) meaning spear, and 'man' which is unchanged in meaning. 'Her-man' is another form of the word. It was likely to have been formed of 'ger' for a spear and 'ker' for an army of spearmen, for which 'k' was softened to an 'h'. Some sources suggest quite wrongly that Germani means 'neighbour' or 'men of the forest'. Instead, the possessors of this name were tough, fierce killers and would not have named themselves anything quite so friendly. The Romans introduced Germani because they consistently heard both forms from the Germans themselves: 'herman' as inHermunduri, and 'german', because these warriors called themselves just that: spearmen. The Heruli and Cherusci names may also derive from or contain this root word for spear, meaning an army (of spears).
    The Chauci had settlements both along the coast and further inland, especially along the banks of the Weser, which flowed through the centre of their territory into the North Sea. The coastal Chauci lived on man-made hills called terpen which protected them from the tidal flooding that affected the coast of the Netherlands and Denmark prior to the building of dikes. The Angles to the north were also well known for this form of abode, and they and the Chauci, along with most of the other local Germanic tribes, possessed the same material culture, making it difficult to distinguish between them archaeologically.

    Couple of things are interesting to specially underline in the above excerpt:

    1. The construction 'Ger-man' breaks down into 'ger' (still used in English as 'gar', the name of a fish) meaning spear, and 'man' which is unchanged in meaning. 'Her-man' is another form of the word. (someone else apart from me thinks that this is possible)
    2. Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, and Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with theJutes)
    3. Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'.

    So in the south Baltic at the time of Roman invasions we have Garmans desrcribed as Authentic Celts. Is it because the Garmen were the spear men, the military elite of the central European Celtic world? Or alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson). Also Chauci are linked to Cimbri which are in turn are linked to the welsh and through name to the slavs.
    The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[7] is PIE *tḱim-ro- "inhabitant", from tḱoi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tḱei- "live" (> Greekκτίζω, Latin sinō); then, the Germanic *χimbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic sębrъ "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).
    Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[8] However, this word is regularly derived from Celtic *Kombrogi, meaning “compatriots”.[9] Cumry is an evoluted form of the Old Welsh, with an assimilation of to first [m], the second element brogi changed into bro “country” in Modern Welsh. It is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri[10][11] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning “rim”, i.e. the people of the coast.[12] Finally, since Antiquity, the name has been related to that of the Cimmerians.[13]

    In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore says that Tacitus has left two accounts of Chauci somewhat different. In ' Annals,' and ' History’ he describes them as the wild warriors, see pirates, but in his ' Germania ' he says that the Chauci never excited wars nor harassed their neighbours, and that they wished to support their grandeur by justice. Which one of these two statements is true? I believe the first.
    The coastal Chauci have already been noted for their seafaring ability, and it seems they turn this to good use, raiding the coastline of Roman-controlled Gallia Belgica to the south of the Rhine in this year. This is doubtlessly one of many such raids against wealthy imperial targets, many of which are later forgotten or are not recorded.

    This is total accord with what we know of Cauci and the rest of the Laigin.They were warriors and mercenaries who in conquered large territory in Ireland in Leinster and Connacht. Their name association with Laighi, the ancient name for Leinster, suggests that this was where they first settled. Eventually, they extended their power to Connacht, and in the process forced the Firbolg tribes into the remoter parts of the province. The remains of many great stone forts built by the Firbolgs in their defense against the Laigain tribes can still be seen in remote areas of western Ireland. Within a few generations the Laigain tribes had established themselves in Connacht, where in County Sligo their descendants include the O'Haras, O'Garas, and others.

    It is very very interesting that the Laigin tribes from Connacht are O'Haras and O'Garas, which literally means the people of the spear. It is very interesting that they are being connected to Cruithin (Pruteni) as it is now emerging that Cruithin (Pruteni) are linked to I2a haplogroup and therefore to the central Europe.
    Prior to the latter 5th century the overlordship of Leinster was held by the Fir Domnann. They are sometimes cited as a tribe of Firbolgs, usually called Damnonii. The Fir Domnann were claimed to be connected to the Dumnonii tribe who invaded Leinster sometime before the 4th century, and were said to have come from western Caernarvonshire, south of Anglesey, in Wales. Another very early conquering tribe comes down from native tradition as the Gáileóin, who perhaps can be later identifed as the Gailenga of Meath and north county Dublin. Galion and Domnand, alias Laigin, as said in Táin bó Cualnge.
    The last of the Dumnonians ruled in the 5th century under the tribal name of Dál Messin Corb. They were ousted by what may be called the original Laigin tribes of the Uí Failge, Uí Bairrche and Uí Enechglaiss. At around the same period the Loígis and Fothairt were mercenary tribes of the Laigin and probably of Cruithin (Pict) origin. The Uí Bairrche are in turn said to be related to the Brigantes tribe of northern Britain, and they ruled southern Leinster from the earliest centuries A.D. until their power was broken by the Uí Cheinnselaig.

    The Cauci of Laigin were famous sea pirates who regularly raided the welsh coast and even established permanent colonies on the Welsh coast. Sea pirates need ships, and to build ships you need good wood, and not any wood, but oak, the traditional ship building wood in south Baltic. Oak was still exclusively used for ship building in the South Baltic in the Viking times, and this is one of the main ways to distinguish Dano Slavic (South Baltic) from Norse Viking ships which were built from pine. If you needed good oak in Ireland in the Iron Age and the early medieval time, there was no better place than the Dublin and Wicklow mountains and the hinterland behind them.

    Recently released book “Secrets of the Irish Landscape” published by the University College Cork and RTE, as well as the accompanying tv series examines the history of the Irish Landscape since the last Ice Age until now. The book also celebrates the life of Robert Lloyd Praeger (The Way That I Went) and the Clare Island survey which was completed in 1913 – so this is its centenary year. In the book we are told originally the whole of Ireland was covered by huge oak forests. But by the beginning of the Iron Age most of the south western and central Ireland was totally deforested and in combination with Irish cold and rainy climate turned to wasteland ranging from stone desert of Burren, to vast tracts of bog lands covering central Ireland.

    The last big tracts of oak forest remained in the north east of Ireland. So it seems that the oak was the reason why all the South Baltic sea people settled in in the north east of Ireland.
    The tribes of Leinster were united by Úgaine Mór (Hugony, the Great), who supposedly built the hill-fort of Dún Ailinne, nearKilcullen, County Kildare. He is a likely, but uncertain candidate as the first historical king of Laigin (Leinster) in the 7th century BC. The kingdom of Laigin was re-founded circa 175/185 AD following a period of civil wars in Ireland by the legendary Cathair Mor. Finn Mac Cool, or Fionn mac Cumhaill, was reputed to have built a stronghold at the Hill of Allen, on the edge of the Bog of Allen, in what was then Leinster.
    In the 4th and 5th centuries, after Magnus Maximus left Britain with his legions, leaving a power vacuum, colonists from Laigin settled in North Wales, specifically in Anglesey, Carnarvonshire and Denbighshire. In Wales some of the Leinster-Irish colonists left their name on the Llŷn Peninsula, which derives its name from Laigin. In the 5th century the emerging Uí Néilldynasties from Connacht conquered areas of Westmeath, Meath and Offaly from the Uí Enechglaiss and Uí Failge of the Laigin. Uí Néill Ard Righ attempted to exact the Boroimhe Laighean, or cattle-tribute from the Laigin from that time, in the process becoming their traditional enemies.

    So now we more or less know the position of the the Chauci and other "garmanic" true Celtic tribes in the south Baltic during the late Iron Age and early medieval time. Lets now compare this with the position of West Slavic tribes from the same period:

    In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore describes in detail the position of various Wendish (West Slavic) tribes during the Anglo Saxon invasions and he says that in the in the 6th Century Wilti lived in Frisia where their main stronghold was Wiltaburg or as Franks called it Utreht.
    The migration of the Wilte from the shores of the Baltic and the foundation of a colony in the country around Utrecht is certainly historical. Bede mentions it in connection with the mission of Wilbrord. He says : ' The Venerable Wilbrord went from Frisia to Rome, where the Pope gave him the name
    of Clement, and sent him back to his bishopric. Pepin gave him a place for his episcopal see in his famous castle, which, in the ancient language of those people, is called Wiltaburg i.e., the town of the Wilti but in the French tongue Utrecht.' 2 Venantius also tells us that the Wileti or Wiltzi, between A.D. 560-600, settled near the city of Utrecht, which from them was called Wilta- burg, and the surrounding country Wiltenia. 3 Such a migration would perhaps be made by land, and some of these Wilte may have gone further.

    In the same book we can find this as well:
    In the North lived the ancient Slav tribes of Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Brandenburg, and those located on the banks of the Elbe, comprising the Polabians, the Obodrites, the Wiltzi, those known at one time as Rugini, the Lutitzes, and the Northern Sorabians or Serbs…

    And also this.
    Westward of the Elbe the Slavic Sorabians had certainly pushed their way, before they were finally
    checked by Charlemagne and his successors. The German annals of the date A.D. 782 tell us that the Sorabians at that time were seated between the Elbe and the Saale, where place-names of Slavonic origin remain to this day.

    Those Wends who were located on the Lower Elbe, near Liineburg and Hamburg, were known as Polabians, through having been seated on or near this river, from po, meaning 'on,' and laba, the Slavic name for the Elbe.

    The eastern corner of the former kingdom of Hanover, and especially that in the circuit of Liichow, which even to the present day is called Wendland, was a district west of the Elbe, where the Wends formed a colony, and where the Polabian variety of the Wendish language survived the longest.

    The latest Archaeological finds from the Drevanen triangle which around the year 800 ad was defined by Magdeburg in the south, Schezla in the west, Bardowick in the north and river Elbe(Laba) are showing that there existed a continuity between the Longobards and Obodriti (Bodrici). This basically proves that certain “Germanic” tribes from south Baltic known from the Iron Age are in the early medieval time appearing classified as West Slavic tribes under different name. Bardowick actually got its name from Longobardi, or long bearded people. West Slavic Obodrites were also known as long bearded.
    Bardowick is one of the oldest cities of north Germany. Its name is first mentioned in 785. AD, when it was the Slavic border town on the Saxon – Slavic border.
    785 The village „Bardunwi” is mentioned for the first in the Annals of Lorsch.
    795 Charlemagne stays either in or near Bardowick.
    8 – 12th century: The town is located on the border of the territory then occupied by Slavic settlements and is described as a central trading post in the Diedenhofener Capitulary 805, the laws granting the village the right to mint coins, hold markets and collect tarifs.
    The first documented 785 already mentioned place Bardowick was during the wars of Charlemagne against the Saxons (772 - 804) several more visits from him.
    Already 805 he is called as a trading center. Long-distance trade that time was chiefly in the hands of the Frisians, who buried their dead in Bardowick.

    Here you can see coins (Denars) minted in the area. Please notice the characteristic Serbian heraldic symbol, the cross with four firesteels.


    This confirmed continuity between the Longobards and Obodrites, and all the mentions of the Wendish (West Slavic) tribes in the south Baltic in the Iron Age makes me ask this question:

    Is there any possible connection between Irish Cauci, south Baltic Chauci and any West Slavic (Wendish) people? If we look at the territory that Chauci inhabited during Roman invasions, we see that only couple of centuries later, the same territory is inhabited by the West Slavic Wolci (Wilti, Wiltzi), Dervani and Obodriti (Wearing, Warangians).

    In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore says this about Wilti:
    …During the time of the Anglo-Saxon period the Slavs in the North of Europe extended as far westward as the Elbe and to places beyond it. On the east bank of that river were the Polabian Wends, and these were apparently a branch of the Wilte or Wiltzi. This name Wiltzi has been derived from the old Slavic word for wolf, wilk, plural wiltzi, and was given to this great tribe from their ferocious courage. The popular name Wolf mark still survives in North-East Germany, near the eastern limit of their territory. These people called themselves Welatibi, a name derived from welot, a giant, and were also known as the Haefeldan, or Men of Havel, from being seated near the river Havel, as mentioned by King Alfred. The inhabitants of the coast near Stralsund, who were called Rugini or Rugians, and who are mentioned by Bede as one of the nations from whom the Anglo-Saxons of his time were known to have derived their origin, 1 must have been included within the general name of the Wends. As these Rugians must have been Wends, the statement of Bede is direct evidence that some of the people of England in his time were known to be of Wendish descent…

    Here is one etymology of the name Chauci:
    ...or even to the IE adj. *k'ouk-, cf. Germanic *hauha 'high', cf. Goth, hauhs, hauhis 'high' (for attestations Heidermanns 1993, 285f), or the name of Germanic tribe Chauci (Cauchi, as in Tac. Germ. 35) which seems to mean something like 'tall, big' (cf. also OHG poetic name Hugones for the Ingaevonic Franks, Anglo-Sax. Hugas, or OHG Hugdetrich as 'Frankish Dietrich' in opposite to Ostrogothic Theodoric, cf. Much 1967 3 , 55, 407)...

    So in east Frisia, in the exact place where we find Chauci which were described as tall and big, we find Volci, Wilti, who call themselves Welatibi which comes from the word welot which means giant, tall person??? Are Chauci and Wilti just two names for the same people?

    Wilti were the same as Lutici (angry, evil) or Veleti (big, giant), German: Wieleten; or Volci (wolf people) Polish: Wieleci, или Wilzi(ans), Wilci, also Wiltzes; Wilzen…Russians say that

    All these were the names for the people who manned the western border of the Slavic Germanic, Celtic land of central Europe. My opinion is that these were the spear men of northern Europe, the Gar men, the Germans, the Serbs, the Goths, the military elite, the border guard. Were these people ethnically homogenous? I don’t know but I don't think so. I believe that what united them was the old European religion and military elite tradition. Once Christianity came in this military elide was divided and effectively used against each other.

    As I said already, Iron Age and early medieval northern central Europe was a melting pot where future great nations of Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norse, were being created from tribal federations of mixed Germanic and Slavic ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin.

    Very soon one of these multi ethnic federations, the Frankish federation, becomes the dominant power in the region mainly due to the fact that it accepted Christianity as its religion. This very quickly homogenized this tribal confederation into a nation. Soon this new Christian nation was mobilised and sent to the first Christian holy war against the pagan Wends or Slavs in central Europe. What is very interesting is how much the Irish had to do with this forced Christianisation of central Europe. The Irish historians like to call this early medieval Ireland “the land of saints and scholars”, but Ireland in the early medieval times resembled more a huge training camp for religious zealots, who after finishing their “studying” in Irish monasteries, went to the land of the Franks and the surrounding Wendish lands, where they basically spread Christianity by the cross or by the sword, We can almost say that the Irish Christians, created the Frankish empire and future Catholic Europe.

    How deep the link between the Irish and the Franks was in the early medieval time we can see from this:

    Among other students of high rank was the Frankish prince who afterward became King Dagobert II, who passed his youth in foreign lands as an exile from his country, and whose student days were spent at the school of Slane, in Westmeath. It is a testimony to the widespread reputation of the Irish schools in the seventh century that one of them should have been chosen for the education of this Frankish prince by the lords of his household. On his return home in 670 the young prince was attended by a train of Irish friends, one of whom, St Arbogast, he raised to the see of Strassburg. His successor founded there a monastery for ' Scots ' or Irish in 687. Another of his followers, Maelceadar, an Irish warrior, became a person of distinction at Dagobert's Court. His wife, St Waldetrude, the patroness of Mons, accompanied her husband when he went on a visit to his native land to invite Irish teachers to come over and settle in the Frankish kingdom.
    During the sixth and seventh centuries the greatest missionary activity was shown by the Scots who dwelt in Ireland. In that country religion was cherished with greater zeal than elsewhere, and learning was fostered for the sake of the Church. But not content with the flourishing state of Christianity in their own island, the most zealous monks often passed over to the continent. There even the nominal Christians were little inclined to follow the precepts of the religion which they professed. Gaul especially attracted the attention of the bold missionaries from Ireland, and the Irish usages became well established in some parts of lie country. Unfortunately almost all the accounts of the missionaries from Ireland have been lost; consequently this biography of Columban is of great value.

    Columbanus (the Latinised form of Columbán, meaning the white dove) was born in Leinster in the Kingdom of Meath in present-day Ireland in 543.
    Meath is traditionally said to have been created during the 1st century AD by Tuathal Teachtmhar. The Uí Enechglaiss was an earlydynasty who were kings of the region. An ogham stone found south of Slane suggests they originally may have controlled this area in County Meath. They along with the Uí Failge and Uí Bairrche, belonged to the Laigin, but may also be associated with the Érainn.

    This Columban is very interesting character. His name in old Irish apparently means “dove” and has no meaning in modern Irish. Interestingly in Serbian word “golub” means “pigeon” or “dove”. He also comes from the land of the Laigin, the Spear people.
    One thing we need to know about the spear people and any other military elite is that they are genetic religious fanatics and will, once converted turn against their own tribe with the same passion with which they were originally protecting it.

    Remember that Chauci were also called Καῦκοι , Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci. This last name is very important.

    I recently watched a program on bbc called the wofland:
    WOLFLAND - a New RTÉ/BBC Irish language two part documentary that explores our fascination and fear of the Wolf.
    There was a time, when over 20,000 wolves roamed Ireland. As super predators they are a natural part of the landscape and ecosystem and are deeply embedded in many of our famous myths and legends.
    In this documentary series, Dr. Éamonn Ó Ciardha looks at our complex relationship with the Wolf, taking us on a hair raising journey into Ireland's past, exploring the background to what many of us experience as an instinctive fear of the Wolf or Mac Tíre - son of the land. A land that was in increasing turmoil at the turn of the 16th century as plantation settlers began to arrive. For them, the wolf became a fearsome symbol of this wild and dangerous land.
    Large-scale farming and deforestation saw the wolf rapidly losing its hunting and breeding grounds. But war, rebellion and fighting between settlers and a growing number of Irish rebels provided rich pickings for wolves - preying on livestock and scavenging on the fallen. The terrified settlers called their new home "Wolfland".

    Today the word for wolf in Irish is Mac Tíre which means son of the land. The old Irish word for wolf is olc, which today means evil. I actually believe that the word was originally "volk" but Gaelic has no "v" so it became oulk or olk. But there is another old Irish word for wolf faolchú, which is pronounced as fwilku fwolku. Who could have brought this word for wolf to Ireland as it is obvious that it wasn't the Gaels? I can think of Geramnic tribes with their wolf but we have even closer match with West Slavic volk, vilk, vlk...

    So now we have:

    1. Tribe Chauci in south Baltic
    2. Tribe Vilti, Volci in the same place at the same time.
    3. Tribe Cauci in Ireland at the same time
    4. Word wilk, wolk, wilti, vilci, volci, olk, faolchú

    And finally here is the question: is Cauci (Chauci, Καῦκοι), just bastardized Caülci, Kavulci, Kavuci, Kavukovi, Ka Vlci, Ka Vuci, Ka Vukovi, Kao Vuci, Kao Vukovi which means like wolfs, wolf like, wolf people, warriors wearing wolf skins???

    Wofland gives us a possible proof that this could be so. It tells us that Ireland has long tradition of wolf people of strange tales of warewolfs and shape shifters who can turn from man to wolf and vice versa, and of strange wolf bands of young warriors who lived like wolves. And in the early medieval time that is almost exclusively tradition attributed to the Slavs. But more about this later. But just to say for the end that this silly little question led me straight to the wolf tribes of Europe and eventually to Vinca....

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Celtic or Slavic

    I have been talking a lot about the Germanic - Slavic (and soon we will see maybe even Baltic) people living in Ireland in late Iron age and early Medieval time. I am planning to talk about it some more because i have two more important but mysterious people to cover: Fomorians and Pruteni.

    But before i continue, i just want to give my reason why i am so concentrated on this at the moment:

    The reason is this:
    The Celtic or Keltic languages (usually pronounced /ˈkɛltɪk/ but sometimes /ˈsɛltɪk/)[1] are descended from Proto-Celtic, or "Common Celtic"; a branch of the greater Indo-European language family. The term "Celtic" was first used to describe this language group byEdward Lhuyd in 1707.[2]
    Celtic languages are most commonly spoken on the north-western edge of Europe, notably in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany,Cornwall, and the Isle of Man, and can be found spoken on Cape Breton Island. There are also a substantial number of Welsh speakers in the Patagonia area of Argentina. Some people speak Celtic languages in the other Celtic diaspora areas of the United States,[3]Canada, Australia,[4] and New Zealand.[5] In all these areas, the Celtic languages are now only spoken by minorities though there are continuing efforts at revitalization.
    During the 1st millennium BC, they were spoken across Europe, in the Iberian Peninsula, from the Atlantic and North Sea coastlines, up the Rhine valley and down the Danube valley to the Black Sea, the Upper Balkan Peninsula, and in Galatia in Asia Minor. The spread to Cape Breton and Patagonia occurred in modern times. Celtic languages, particularly Irish, were spoken in Australia before federation in 1901 and are still used there to some extent.[6]

    Celtic language is the language once spoken in the whole of Europe, but today it is only spoken in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany,Cornwall, and the Isle of Man.

    So here we come to the fundamental problem: Was Proto Celtic language deduced from today's "Celtic" languages like Gaelic, Welsh, Manx, Breton? If we look at the official history of the Ireland, we see this isolated Celtic land which for 1000 years only had influence from Celtic Gaul and Celtic Iberia. The first non “Celtic” people to arrive to Ireland were the Vikings in the 9th century, but they were too late to influence the creation of the “Celtic” Gaelic language. So we have absolute right to say that Irish is a Celtic language.

    But we are seeing how huge the influence of the central European and South Baltic Germanic Slavic culture was in the British Isles, the "Celtic" heartland much earlier than the 9th century and the Vikings. So this then presents a problem: is this Proto Celtic language which we have found in the indigenous languages in the British Isles, just a small part of the real old European Celtic language? Namely is this “Celtic” part found in “Celtic” languages just the part of the real Celtic language, which Gaels and the Welsh, and Bretons incorporated into their languages while mixing with the real Celts of Central Europe, Slavs, Balts and Germans, who are still in effect speaking the Celtic language today in the same area of Europe where it was always spoken? Is it time to rethink the whole “Celtic languages” thing? Are central European, mainly Slavic languages but also Germanic and Baltic languages, the real Celtic languages?

    If this is the case, then all documented common words in Celtic and Slavic languages should not surprise you anymore.

    Here is just an example of what I am talking about:
    Pavel Serafimov



    Combined analysis of languages, historical sources, burial types, architecture and religion reveals that a part of the Gauls called also Celts were in fact a Western Slavic branch consisting of different tribes who inhabited the lands of ancient France, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, etc. These people were responsible for the spread of iron in Central and Western Europe and were also the ones to whom the ethnonym Celts was applied for the first time. Unless other ancient testimonies or new archaeological discoveries appear, it should be admitted that Slavic tribes inhabited not only Eastern, but also Central and Western Europe in the deep antiquity and were strong, highly developed people, who influenced many others. Novel evidence of Slavic presence in Western Europe and British Isles is presented in this paper. Scientific method demands that the opposing arguments and theories have to be considered. Counter evidence and counter arguments are welcome….

    Or this:
    Pavel Serafimov, Giancarlo Tomezzoli

    Slavic influences in the Ancient Gaul


    It is common opinion between the scholars and the people that the ancient gauls formed a compact set of Celtic tribes speaking the gaulish language or similar varieties of the same one [1]. The gaulish language also called Classical Celtic had practically nothing in common with Insular Celtic; it was very close to the Italic group of tongues and had grammatical forms similar to those of the Proto-Indo-European model [1]. however, the publication in a recent past of relevant works has animated the debate about the slavic cultural and religious influences and about the slavic presence in the ancient gaul. With this paper, after having reviewed said relevant works, we analyze in more details some origins of these influences and presence so as to introduce some more arguments and evidences into the debate.

    Without knowing how strong and how long the influence of the Central European cultures which reached Ireland and Britain via South Baltic was, the above claims would have been absurd. Now they are to be expected.

    So I will continue to talk about the Baltic Irish for few more days. I will continue with Pruteni, the Lake people…

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi again. I know I said the last time that i will talk about the Pruteni, but i decided to continue talking abut our friends Laigin and to show you how deep the rabbit hole actually is. I hope you enjoy the ride.

    Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears

    The legendary forefather of the Laigin was Labraid Loingsech.
    Labraid Loingsech (English: the exile, mariner), also known as Labraid Lorc, son of Ailill Áine, son of Lóegaire Lorc, was, according to medieval Irish legend and historical tradition, a High King of Ireland. He was considered the ancestor of the Laigin, who gave their name to the province of Leinster.[1] An early dynastic poem calls him "a god among the gods", suggesting he may once have been an ancestor-deity of the Laigin.[2]

    In one of the histories, told by Geoffrey Keating it is said that:
    …after spending some time with Scoriath in Munster, Labraid goes to the continent, where he gains great fame as the leader of the bodyguard of the king of France, who is related to Labraid's grandmother, Cessair Chrothach (who was the daughter of a king of the Franks according to the Lebor Gabála). Moriath, hearing of his great deeds, falls in love with him from a distance. She writes a love song for him, and sends Craiftine to Gaul to sing it to him. Labraid is delighted with the song, and decides to return to Ireland and reclaim his territory. The king of France equips him with ships and 2,200 men. His followers are known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads (láigne) they use.[4] T. F. O'Rahilly attempted to explain the confusion over the location of Labraid's exile by suggesting that the name Fir Morca, a people located in Munster in theBook of Leinster account, was a corruption of Armorica in north-west France.[1]…

    I have to ask here is France (land of Franks) just later change and addition from the early medieval time when, as we have seen, the relation between the Gaels and the Franks was at its peak? Was the land from which the Labraid brings his garmans or spear men further up north, somewhere around the mouth of river Elbe or beyond? Was the land of his exile the same land from which the Laigin (Cauci, Menapi…) came in the first place? I a king goes into exile it is usually to the domains of his cousins where he can enjoy protection? And if Labraid went to Polabia (Slavic name for the area “po labi” or along the river Elbe) or beyond river Elbe (Laba), is it possible that “Fir Morca” is actually “For Morka” “Fomorka” the land of Fomori which is located beyond the river Elbe?

    Here is what Wiki has to say about Fomorians:
    The race are known as the Fomoire or Fomoiri, names that are often Anglicised as Fomorians, Fomors or Fomori. Later in Middle Irish they are also known as the Fomórai?. The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates.[1] In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea.[2] Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea.[3]Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare).[4][5] Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".[6]

    But who were these Fomorians? Some people say that they are just another name for Vikings or see pirates. This is actually quite close to the truth if by Vikings and see pirates we consider see people who came from the north east, more precisely from the south Baltic. Fomorians are indeed the south Baltic people, Western Slavs, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Balts. But they came to Ireland much earlier than the Vikings, probably even before the Iron Age. They lived in Eastern and Northern Ireland and brought culture, old gods like Crom Dubh, arts, crafts...They were so important that all the most important clans claim to have some descent from Fomory. Irish historians agree that their name is not Gaelic and that means probably people of the see, or people who came from across the see, or see pirates or people who live “fo muire” at the coast or as you would say it in Western Slavic “po morje”. Where could have been that land across the see famous for its see pirates whose name sounds like “fo muire” or “po morje”, and which is also known for its culture and technology and wood structure building during bronze and Iron Age?

    There is a country like that. It is south Baltic part of Germany, called Pomerania or Pomorje (Land by the see, the coast) as it was known to the people who gave it its name and who called themselves Pomorjani, Pomori, Pomorci (see people, coast people). These Wilti, Obodrites, Lugiani and other West Slavic or Wendish people were famous see pirates and traders well into the late medieval time. They were part of the Angles and Saxons federations during Anglo Saxon invasions and part of the Danish federation during the Viking invasions.

    So did Labraid go back to “the old country” until the storm blows over? Quite possible.

    It seems that the mouth of river Elbe was a very popular place during the Iron Age. Apart from Cauci, Volci, Pomorjani we find there another interesting tribe: “Longobardi”. Who were these Longobards, what does their name mean and why are they important for understanding of Laigin?
    The fullest account of Lombard origins, history, and practices is the Historia Langobardorum (History of the Lombards) of Paul the Deacon, written in the 8th century. Paul's chief source for Lombard origins, however, is the 7th-century Origo Gentis Langobardorum(Origin of the Lombard People).
    The Origo Gentis Langobardorum tells the story of a small tribe called the Winnili[1] dwelling in southern Scandinavia[2] (Scadanan) (theCodex Gothanus writes that the Winnili first dwelt near a river called Vindilicus on the extreme boundary of Gaul).[3] The Winnili were split into three groups and one part left their native land to seek foreign fields. The reason for the exodus was probably overpopulation.[4] The departing people were led by the brothers Ybor and Aio and their mother Gambara[5] and arrived in the lands of Scoringa, perhaps the Baltic coast[6] or the Bardengau on the banks of the Elbe.[7] Scoringa was ruled by the Vandals and their chieftains, the brothers Ambri and Assi, who granted the Winnili a choice between tribute or war.
    The Winnili were young and brave and refused to pay tribute, saying "It is better to maintain liberty by arms than to stain it by the payment of tribute."[8] The Vandals prepared for war and consulted Godan (the god Odin[2]), who answered that he would give the victory to those whom he would see first at sunrise.[9] The Winnili were fewer in number[8] and Gambara sought help from Frea (the goddessFrigg[2]), who advised that all Winnili women should tie their hair in front of their faces like beards and march in line with their husbands. So Godan spotted the Winnili first and asked, "Who are these long-beards?," and Frea replied, "My lord, thou hast given them the name, now give them also the victory."[10] From that moment onwards, the Winnili were known as the Longbeards (Latinised as Langobardi, Italianised as Lombardi, and Anglicized as Lombards).

    So Langobardi were not calling themselves Langobardi. It was the name given to them by the Norse. They called themselves Winnili unless even this was a name given to them by others. Langobardi means the ones with long beards (dugobradi in Serbian). These long bearded people were great warriors, and really liked the fight and battle. They eventually lead the tribal federation which invaded Italy and established the Lombard kingdom of Italy.
    In the 1st century AD Longobardi formed part of the Suebi, in northwestern Germany. By the end of the 5th century they had moved into the area roughly coinciding with modern Austria north of the Danube river, where they subdued the Herulsand later fought frequent wars with the Gepids. The Lombard king Audoin defeated the Gepid leader Thurisind in 551 or 552; his successor Alboin eventually destroyed the Gepids at the Battle of Asfeld in 567.
    Following this victory, Alboin decided to lead his people to Italy, which had become severely depopulated after the longGothic War (535–554) between the Byzantine Empire and the Ostrogothic Kingdom there. The Lombards were joined by numerous Saxons, Heruls, Gepids, Bulgars, Thuringians, and Ostrogoths, and their invasion of Italy was almost unopposed. By late 569 they had conquered all the principal cities north of the Po River except Pavia, which fell in 572. At the same time, they occupied areas in central and southern Italy. They established a Lombard Kingdom in Italy, later named Regnum Italicum ("Kingdom of Italy"), which reached its zenith under the 8th-century ruler Liutprand. In 774, the Kingdom was conquered by the Frankish King Charlemagne and integrated into his Empire. However, Lombard nobles continued to rule parts of the Italian peninsula well into the 11th century when they were conquered by the Normans and added to their County of Sicily. Their legacy is apparent in the regional appellation, Lombardy.

    Romans say that Longobards in the first century AD lived next door to Chauci.
    The first mention of the Lombards occurred between AD 9 and 16, by the Roman court historian Velleius Paterculus, who accompanied a Roman expedition as prefect of the cavalry.[17] Paterculus says that under Tiberius the "power of the Langobardi was broken, a race surpassing even the Germans in savagery".[18]
    From the combined testimony of Strabo (AD 20) and Tacitus (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci.[17] Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[19] He treats them as a branch of the Suebi.

    No I have a question: what is the chance that such warrior tribe would not join its neighbours Chauci and Menapii in an invasion of England and Ireland?

    Back to the origin of the Anglo Saxon race:
    The customs relating to the widow's dower that prevailed in South Westmoreland and North Lancashire are
    varied. In the Barony of Kendal the widow of a customary tenant was entitled to the whole of her husband's
    customary estate during widowhood. 2 In some other parts of the south of Westmoreland she received half
    the estate. Similarly, at Much Urswick, Kirkby Irleth, Lowick, 3 and Nevill Hall in Furness, the widow was
    entitled to half the estate during widowhood. By the old common law of the country she was entitled to only
    a third share, and at Clitheroe to a fourth, as was the custom among the ancient Lombards. The Kendal
    dower custom is the same as existed so largely in Sussex and on manors elsewhere, as in the vale of Taunton,
    where junior inheritance prevailed. The half dower custom is the same as that of Kent, and points to settle-
    ments of Goths or Jutes.

    So there are customs in certain parts of England which can be attributed to the Longobard immigrants among the Saxons. If Longobards can be found in England there is a good chance that they also ended up in east Ireland with the rest of the Laigin.

    Back to Labraid Loingsech. Is this just another bastardized non Gaelic name which was changed by later scribes and myth makers to fit the Gaelic language? Is it possible that Labraid is Langobard? And is it possible that Loingsech comes from the Lombard’s weapon a long knife known as scramasax or long seax or phonetically longsek. So the name of the leader of the Laigin becomes Langobard Longsek?

    Is there any indication that this could be in any way possible?


    In Irish word “braid” (pronounced brad) means neck, throat, bust. This is exactly where beard is. In Serbian “brada” means beard and if we wanted to make a name out of long beard it would be dugobrad, where dugo is long and brad is beard.

    Now we have lango bard, lango b(a)rad, lango baraid….

    Also we have this:
    In early medieval Ireland beards were also an indicator of class distinction (Fig. 2).Aristocratic men were clean-shaven or had both a beard and a moustache but never a moustache alone. Soldiers and lower-class males wore a long moustache but no beard (Dunlevy 1999, 21).

    So in Ireland the long beard was reserved for aristocracy. Is this the memory of the old ruling military elite with long beards?
    Laigin ruled at Ailinne [Knochawlin], the largest hill-fort in Ireland, near Kilcullen, Co. Kildare, reigned:
    25BC-AD25 X. Ugaine "Mor" [Hugony "The Great"], High-King of Ireland, [son of Eochaid "Buadhach" [Eochu "Buadh"], King of Laigin [Leinster], identified with Echu Mac Earc, the last King of the Fir-Bolg, descendant of Dela, first King of the Fir-Bolg, descendant of Beli of Tyre]. He was a popularly claimed ancestor of Irish Royalty in medieval times. He, according to Irish Mythology, engaged in foreign conquests, and extended his dominion over Britain and Gaul. A story now lost has him campaigning in Italy: if so, it would have been as the captain of a company of Irish mercenaries in Roman military service as irregulars or foreign auxiliaries. His wife, called "Cesair [III]", the third person in Celtic Mythology to have that name, is called the daughter of the King of the Franks, who, at the time would have been the Roman Governor of Gaul, namely, […]oroix, a native Gallic prince in Roman service. On his death claimants to the high-kingship arose at Tara, Navan Fort, as well as Ailinne, which sparked civil wars among the claimants.
    date unk X. Loeguire "Lorc", son, King of Laigin/Leinster
    date unk X. Cobhthach "Caelbreagh", bro, usurper
    date unk X. Labraid "Loingsech" [son of Oilioll "Aine", son of Loeguire "Lorc"], restored to his grand-father's throne with the help of foreign mercenaries, the Gauls (Gaels).

    Grandfather of Labraid Loingsech campaigned in Italy. Is this a Longobard campaign of the 6th century of some earlier one maybe the Vandal one?

    Scramasax or Seax brings us to this:
    Seax (also sax, sæx, sex, latinized sachsum) is an Old English word for "knife".[1] In modern archaeology, the term seax is used specifically for a type of sword or dagger typical of the Germanic peoples - especially the Saxons, whose tribal name derives from the weapon[2] - during the Migration period and the Early Middle Ages.
    In heraldry, the seax is a charge consisting of a curved sword with a notched blade, appearing, for example, in the coats of arms ofEssex and the former Middlesex.[3]

    So if Saxon or Sekson is a sek (long blade) man then German or Garman as a spear man isn’t that crazy? What this brings us to is that neither of the two main “national” or “ethnic” names for Germanic people have nothing to do with race. These names distinguish people by the type of weapon they use. So who were Gar-men and Sek-men ethnically? Maybe we will be able to answer this and maybe not, but it’s definitely an interesting question.

    Wikipedia says that seax is “a type of sword or dagger typical of the Germanic peoples - especially the Saxons”. Wikipedia obviously means ethnicity when it says “Germanic”. But long knife was also used by the Irish and by the Slavs.

    Now if we look at Irish long knives, Anglo-Saxon long knives, Scandinavian (Norse) long knives, Lombard long knives and Slavic long knives we find something very interesting. Irish long knives most closely resemble the Lombard ones and Slavic ones.

    Here is an example of an Irish long knife:

    the man who made this replica drew his inspiration for this knife from his research on Irish fighting knives in the National Museum of Ireland and from his research on the Viking scramasax.

    Here is an example of a Slavic long knife. Look at the shape of the blade and how much it looks like the Slavic one:

    The slavic sheaths does not look like the gotlandic ones at all! My main interest is scandinavian 8-10th century and I have studied over 35 seaxes with sheaths from Gotland In person and none look like this.

    Here is a Longbard long knife.

    Here are an Anglo Saxon and Norse long knife:

    Viking seax

    Anglo Saxon seax

    The difference is striking. Anglo Saxon and Norse long knives belong to one type and Slavic, Longobard and Irish to another??? Can we judge the ethnicity by the shape of the long knife? I don’t know, but this is definitely a question worth exploring.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    While we are talking about the long knives, it is worth exploring the name of this weapon:

    Old English seax,sax and Old Frisian sax are identical with Old Saxon and Old High German saks,all from a Common Germanic*sahsom froma root*sah,*sag-"tocut" (also insaw,from aPIE root*sek-).The term scramaseax,scramsaxlit."wounding-knife" is sometimes used for disambiguation, even though it is not attested in Old English, but taken from an occurrence of scramasax in Gregory of Tours'History of the Franks.[4]

    So the wiki says it is an old German root *sah,*sag-"to cut and then quickly adds that it all comes from the PIE root sek.

    Interestingly enough wiki completely misses to mention Gaelic as a language that has anything to do with Seax or verb sek.
    I will now try to fix this and try to expand this etymology with a very interesting word cluster which I found in south Slavic languages and in Irish.

    I will start with this citation from a medieval French manuscript:
    The Gaelic skills of hand-to-hand and their style of fighting was not lost, as a French observer Boullaye le Gouz comments in 1644: "The Irish carry a scquine (scian - knife) or Turkish dagger, which they dart (throw) very adroitly at 15 paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy, and if they are routed, they fly in such a manner that it is impossible to catch them. [A common complaint by English Tudor soldiers] I have seen an Irishman with ease accomplish 25 miles a day. They march to battle with the bagpipes instead of fifes, butt hey have few drums and they use the musket and cannon as we do. They are better soldiers abroad than at home."

    The Irish long knife is called Scean or Scian. What is interesting about this word is that it is just one of a cluster of Irish words with the root sc which all somehow relate to blades, making blades, using blades and consequences of using blades. I will here just list few representative ones; you can consult the dictionary for more:

    S(e)caineamh– shingly
    S(e)clata– slate
    S(e)caineadh-crack, split
    S(e)ceallog– chip, thin slice
    S(e)cealla– shale, flake
    S(e)cablail– chisel work
    S(e)caid– husks
    S(e)caineach– thin, cracked
    S(e)cean,s(e)cian (pronounced shkian) – knife
    S(e)cean– crack, split, sever

    Now these words, I believe, have potentially root in a stone age. When you look at them they basically describe making of a stone blade from a stone. You get a shingly stone, slate, you chip it, split it until you get a sharp blade. Husks and chips fall off in the process. Then you can use it to cut, split and sever…

    From the analysis of the word development from Ogham Irish to modern Irish, we see that the language has lost a lot of vowels. To the above words could have had a vowel between Sc root and this is why I inserted the alternative “(e)” which doesn’t exist in modern Gaelic. We also see insertion of vowels in the south Slavic languages as the words traveled from the Baltic to the Balkans in the early medieval time. In some dialects of the south Slavic languages you can still find the original vowless versions of the words. So I am not sure about the above vowel insertion. Also you will see in related south Slavic words that we find both sk and sek roots.

    Here is the corresponding south Slavic word cluster. You will notice that it is a lot bigger and wider than the Irish one, but it covers the same word range needed to describe making of a stone blade from as tone as well as all the metal blades and their usage. The fact that in the south Slavic languages we find all the words connected with the stone blades as well as the metal blades with the same root shouldn't surprise us. It was the Balkans, more precisely within the territory of today’s Serbia that metal blades were produced for the first time in copper, bronze and iron. It is fitting to presume that whoever made these metal blades used the same word s(e)k as the root word for both stone and metal blades. If this is so, what does this tell us about the age of these words?

    Školjka– shell. Shells are sharp and could have been what gave people idea to create first blades
    Skriljac– slate. This stone can be easily chipped and was used for weapon blades.
    Skresati– from kresati. Kresati means to hit one thing with another, so that the hitting thing slides of the side of the thing being hit. The word is used to describe hitting a stone with a stone to chip them or to make fire and for cutting branches of a log, basically to chip or to trim. Skresati means to actually chip a bit of or to cut a brunch off, to separate bits.
    Skalja– small thin chips of stone or wood
    Sek(sometimes pronounced as sik or sk)– root word meaning to cut but also a blade. Word seći(to cut) comes from sekti.
    Sečivo(pronounced sechivo) – blade
    Sekira(sikira, skira) – axe
    Sekare(škare pronounces shkare) – scissors
    Sekia(sekian) – knife. This word is now preserved in Bosnian slang word for knife “ćakija” (sekia). This word can also be deduced from a word škia (pronounced shkia) which is a dinaric dialect word which means a thin hand sliced tobacco.
    Sekač.– a one sided blade
    Skiljiti– to squint, to make your eyes look like as if they were two cuts.
    Skija– a blade on a sled, and later a ski.
    Sekutić – front tooth
    Usek,zasek – a cut
    Sek– a log house where logs, which are also called sek, are connected by interlocking cuts made at their ends.
    Seknuti– to strike or hit suddenly
    Skratiti– to cut down to cut short
    Skrvaviti– to make bloody
    Skloca– foldup knife
    Škljocati- to make a noise by closing something sharp like teeth or scissors.
    Škrgutati– to grind teeth
    Škopiti– to castrate, to cut balls off.
    Skulj– a castrated ram
    Škrip– a cut, a narrow space

    This word cluster is possibly based on an onomatopoeic root “sk” which potentially makes it very old. The sound which a blade makes when pulled across something in order to cut it is “sssssssk”. When you cut something off with a sudden hit of blade sound shortens to tsk or tsak. I will leave this here and hopefully someone else will pick it up and cover it in more detail.

    What I find is very very interesting is word for scissors. Scissors are a complicated implement and who ever made them first gave them the name that stuck among the people who used them first, which probably related people who were living close together.

    In Russian and all central and east Slavic languages (including Bulgarian and Macedonian) it is a form of word nožnice.
    In Scandinavian languages it is some form of saks.
    In French English and Irish it is ciseaux, scissors, siosúr.
    In Greek and Latin it is ψαλίδιand axicia
    In Italian it is forbici.

    But in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, Dutch, German and Latvian it is škare,schaar, schere, š??res…So what is the connection between these people? Is south Baltic the link again, more precisely Elbe valley?

    We know that the root word is sekare which comes from south Slavic sek root. Because when we have a look at the word for cut and blade in all these languages we get this:

    To cut

    German - geschnitten (is this actually sekniten)
    Dutch– snijden (this is probably from the above root sekniten)
    Latvian– samazin?t
    Serbian,Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian – Seći(Sekti)


    German– Schneide (Sekniede?), Klinge
    Dutch– mes
    Latvian– asmens

    As part of this analysis I have to mention one more word: to slaughter,to kill a living thing using a sharp blade. We need to investigate this word because after all, blades are made for slaughter more than anything else.

    In south Slavic languages a word for to slaughter or related to slaughter are:

    Klati– to slaughter
    Klanje– slaughter
    Klan– being slaughtered
    Koljač– the one that slaughters
    Saklan(zaklan) – slaughtered
    Kljakav– someone who is missing a limb due to its being cut off.
    Kljuse– a horse which is too old to be useful and which needs to be slaughtered, killed (kolje se)
    Kljusav– ready to be slaughtered, killed
    Koljivo– a ceremonial meal made from cooked wheat eaten at Serbian “Slava”celebration. Slava is today a family patron saint day celebration,but originally it was a clan ancestral cult celebration. Each family had its own deity as a clan progenitor, and that deity was celebrated as the father of the clan. Originally human sacrifices were made even down to medieval times and maybe even later. In case of Dabog or Hromi Daba, the main deity of all Serbian clans, even first born children were sacrificed. Animals such as lambs, goats and bulls were also sacrificed and are still to this day. Animal sacrifices and particularly human sacrifices sharply distinguished Serbs and other western Slavs from eastern Slavs. During slavisation of the Serbs,blood sacrifices were replaced with cooked wheat but the name remained: koljivo (what was slaughtered as a sacrifice).

    Word klati is an onomatopoeic word based on the root “kl” which potentially makes it very old as well.

    “kl”or “gl” is, I believe, one of the oldest word roots which is related to things coming out of a throat. It is particularly a sound of choking of gasping for air while something liquid is filling your throat and lungs, like blood when an animal or a person is being slaughtered. If you have ever slaughtered anything you will not easily forget that sound. The sound is kljkljklj….

    In south Slavic languages we have this word

    Krkljati– gargle
    Kuljati– to gush, as in puking or bleeding when a throat is slit, or bleeding when a body is sliced open with a blade, or a head crushed with an axe blow.
    kljukati - continuously stuff something down someones throat.

    It is interesting how much this klati sound like kill. In wiktionary we find this as etymology of kill:

    From Middle English killen,kyllen,cüllen(“to strike, beat, cut”),possibly a variant of Old English cwellan(“tokill, murder, execute”)(seequell),or from Old Norse kolla(“tohit on the head, harm”)(compare Norwegian kylla(“topoll”),Middle Dutch kollen(“toknock down”),Icelandic kollur(“top,head”),see coll,cole).Compare also Middle Dutch killen,kellen(“tokill”),Middle Low German killen(“toache strongly, to cause one great pain”),Middle High German kellen. Cognate with Albanian qëlloj(“tohit, strike”).

    I think these words are related, but I will leave this to others to investigate further.

    Now we also have word klanac which means a gorge, a deep narrow valley out of which a river flows. These valleys are deep cuts in hills and mountains which look as if they were made by a gods using giant blade. Out of these earth wounds, water, the blood of the earth gushes out.
    This is incredible descriptive naming of geological formations, as klanac does also resemble a deep cut made by a blade in a flesh, especially in a neck while slaughtering out of which blood starts gushing out.If you have ever slaughtered anything or anyone you will know what I am talking about.
    So klanac is a place where mother earth has been slaughtered. How old could this word possible be?

    Now in Gaelic we have this word: Glen. The word is Goidelic : gleann in Scottish and Irish Gaelic, glion in Manx.In Manx,glan is also to be found meaning glen. It is cognate with Welsh glynl.

    Wiktionary says that it means: A secluded and narrow valley;a dale;a depression between hills.

    we also have word claon: inclining, squint, oblique, Irish claon,Old Irish clóin:*kloino-;Latincli@-no,accli@-nis,leaning, English incline;Greek@Gklínw(@Gilong),incline; English lean;Lithuanian szlë/ti,incline; Sanskrit çrayati(do.).

    So here we have a link between to slaughter, to cut a slit, to squint,klanac (glen, gorge)…

    Also it is interesting that in Germanic languages the word for slaughter has the same root (s-kl) as in south Slavic languages (Schlachten,s(e)klahten), but in east Slavic and central Slavic languages it is based on the root “rez” which also means to cut in Slavic languages. This again shows the affinity of south Slavic languages with Germanic languages. This also shows that south Slavic languages kept their old word for cut (sek) and also absorbed the new Slavic word (rez).