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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    The title of this post was Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears. We have seen long beards, long blades and long spears. What about long ears? Let’s go back to Labraid Loingsech.

    The story is told, similar to a legend of the Greek king Midas,that Labraid had horse's ears, something he was concerned to keep quiet. He had his hair cut once a year, and the barber, who was chosen by lot, was immediately put to death. A widow, hearing that her only son had been chosen to cut the king's hair, begged the king not to kill him, and he agreed, so long as the barber kept his secret. The burden of the secret was so heavy that the barber fell ill. A druid advised him to go to a crossroads and tell his secret to the first tree he came to, and he would be relieved of his burden and be well again. He told the secret to a large willow.Soon after this, however, Craiftine broke his harp, and made a new one out of the very willow the barber had told his secret to.Whenever he played it, the harp sang "Labraid Lorc has horse'sears". Labraid repented of all the barbers he had put to death and admitted his secret.[4]

    This is a very interesting story and quite unusual. Let’s see if we can find similar legends anywhere else:
    1. Midas(Greece).
    2. Tarkasnawa (luw."ass") - also known as the false reading Tarkondemos-was a king of the Hittite vassal state Mira in the west of present-day Turkey. He probably reigned in the time of the Great King Tudhalija IV in the 13 th Century BC
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkasnawa
    http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=1430426&partId=1
    3. The Goat's Ears of the Emperor Trojan (Serbia).
    4. The King with the Horse's Ears (Ireland), Laigin story about Labhradh Loingseach.
    5. March's Ears (Wales). This story comes from Ll?n peninsula. Now this is the same Lleynw hose name is thought to be of Irish origin, and to have the same root –Laigin (Laighin) in Irish –as the word Leinster and which also occurs in Porth Dinllaen on the north coast and which was a Laigin colony in wales.
    6. In pre-Islamic legend of Central Asia, the king of the Ossounes of the Yenisei basin had donkey's ears. He would hide them, and order each of his barbers killed to hide his secret. The last barber among his people was counselled to whisper the heavy secret into a well after sundown, but he didn't cover the well afterwards. The well water rose and flooded the kingdom, creating the waters ofLakeIssyk-Kul. (Based on available data the bronze age civilsation thatexisted here dates to 2500 years ago.)
    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20071227/94372640.html
    http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0782.html

    Lets see what we can find about these stories and see if we can propose some chronology and direction of spreading of this unusual myth:
    Sarah Morris demonstrated (Morris 2004) that donkeys' ears (my comment:donkeys or goats ears???) were a Bronze Age royal attribute, borne by King Tarkasnawa (Greek Tarkondemos) ofMira,on a seal inscribed in both Hittite cuneiform and Luwian hieroglyphs:in this connection, the myth would appear for Greeks, to justify the exotic attribute.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas


    Let’s see what we can find about king Midas:
    The King Midas who ruled Phrygia in the late 8th century BC is known from Greek and Assyrian sources. According to the former, he married a Greek princess, Damodice daughter of Agamemnon of Cyme, Aeolia, and traded extensively with the Greeks. Some historians believe this Midas donated the throne that Herodotus says was offered to the Oracleof Delphi by"Midas son of Gordias" (see above). Assyrian tablets from the reign of SargonII record attacks by a "Mita", king of the Mushki,against Assyria's eastern Anatolian provinces. Some historians believe Assyrian texts called this Midas king of the "Mushki"because he had subjected the eastern Anatolian people of that name and incorporated them into his army. Greek sources including Strabo[23] say that Midas committed suicide by drinking bulls' blood during an attack by the Cimmerians, which Eusebius dated to around 695 BC and JuliusAfricanus to around 676 BC. Archeology has confirmed that Gordium was destroyed and burned around that time.[24]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas

    Now when we look at who Mushki are we get this:
    The Mushki (Muški; Georgian:Mushkebi) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources.They do not appear in Hittite records.[1]Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι)of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115),one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians,while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.
    Georgian historians believe the Massagetae is another name for the Mushki, in contradiction to prevailing opinion which places the Massagetae in Central Asia. They base their argument on statements by Herodotus that the Massagetae lived "beyond the Araxes"(1.201) and that "after crossing the Araxes, Cyrus was sleeping on the territory of the Massagetae" (1.209), while rejecting as a mistake a third statement by Herodotus that "on the west the Caspian is bounded by the Caucasus; eastwards lies an immense tract of flat country ... the greater part of this region is occupied by the Massagetae" (1.204). Georgian historians also point to the similarity of the names Massagetae, Mtskheta and Meskheti, and to the lack of archeological evidence for a Massagetae state in Central Asia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
    The ancient tribes of Meskhi (or Moschi) and Mosiniks are the first known inhabitants of the area of modern Samtskhe-Javakheti region. Some scholars credit the Mosiniks (or Mossynoeci) with the invention of iron metallurgy. From the 2nd millennium to the 4th century BC, Meskheti was believed to be part of the Kingdom of Diaokhi, in the 4th century BC to the 6th century AD part of the Kingdom of Iberia.From the 10th to the 15th century it was part of the united Georgian Kingdom.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhetians

    This is very interesting about the Georgian Mushki. Some scholars are crediting these Mushki with the invention of Iron. This fits perfectly with the expansion of the Iron age people from the Balkans who under the name Mushki spread around the world conquering countries all the way to central Asia.


    Now this is very interesting. King Mita (still a very common name in the Balkans among the south Slavs and Bulgarians also found in form Mitar and Mitra) was the leader of Muški Mushki an Iron Age people of Anatolia…I couldn’t find any proposed etymology of Muški,so I will propose my own: in Serbian and other Slavic languages, word for man is muž. But muž can also mean husband and lord. Word for manly is Muški,but Muški can also mean men, or lords…when we look at the time of his reign,we see that it falls into 8th century BC well after the iron was invented in the Balkans. So was Mita leading the Mushki (men) from Balkans? He was the king of Phrygians. Is there any indication that these Phrygian Mushki could be from the Balkans? There is:
    Inscriptions found at Gordium make clear that Phrygians spoke an Indo-European language with at least some vocabulary similar to Greek,and clearly not belonging to the family of Anatolian languages spoken by most of Phrygia's neighbors.[1][2]According to one of the so-called Homeric Hymns, the Phrygian language was not mutually intelligible with Trojan.[3]
    According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.[4]He and other Greek writers also recorded legends about King Midas that associated him with or put his origin in Macedonia;Herodotus for example says a wild rose garden in Macedonia was named after Midas.[5] The Phrygians were also connected by some classical writers to the Mygdones, the name of two groups of people, one of which lived in northern Macedonia and another in Mysia.Likewise the Phrygians have been identified with the Bebryces,a people said to have warred with Mysia before theTrojan War and who had a king named Mygdon at roughly the same time as the Phrygians were said to have had a king named Mygdon. The classical historian Strabo groups Phrygians, Mygdones, Mysians, Bebryces and Bithynians together as peoples that migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans.[6]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia

    So if Phrygians came from the north Balkans, then possibly the Serbian story about King Trajan and his goat ears could be the original myth from which all the other ones have been developed. The story about king Trajan comes from the area of the Djerdap gorge, the biggest gorge in Europe, the place where mighty Danube, managed to burst through Carpathian mountains and thus empty the ancient Pannonian sea.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Sea

    Thus Danube was a sea and a river, the ancient Oceanos potamos of the old Gaia. The Djerdap gorge is the place where we find the most advanced Mesolithic civilization,Lepenski Vir.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

    This is also the area where we later find Vinca civilization which invented Copper and Bronze 7000 years ago. Just to the south is Hisar, where first iron and industrial iron production sites were found that date to 1400 BC, much earlier than the Hittite finds. We know that the Vinca copper culture spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. I believe that so far still unidentified(proto Illyrian) Iron culture also spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. And they took with them their story about king Trajan and his long Ears. I know that some people will argue that the story is originally Phrygian and that it originates in Anatolia. I would like to ask then, how is it possible that such an obscure story be adopted by the Irish, Serbs and Ossounes,but no one else in between, particularly in greco roman Europe??? Do the Irish and the Serbs have weird taste for legends, and have somehow picked this weird story and made it an obligatory material for the around the fire story telling time, until it became a folk legend?It makes no sense. The only logical explanation is that the story spread from the Carpathian region of Serbia. And then fallowed the Frigians. Now who were these Phrygians? This is what etymology dictionary says:
    Phrygian- "native of Phrygia,"region in ancient Asia Minor; Phrygian mode in ancient Greek music theory was held to be "of a warlike character."

    Is it possible that original Phrygia was not in Asia Minor, but in the north east Balkans, and that the name was brought to Asia Minor during the Phrygian Migrations? This happens all the time. Migrants give their new countries and towns the names from the “old country”. Is it possible that there are many Phrygias? Like Friesland,the area from Jutland to the west, from which our friends Laigin came from? Or this mysterious Island also called Frisland:
    Frisland,also called Frischlant, Friesland, Freezeland, Frislandia,or Fixland,is a mythical island that appeared on virtually all of the maps of the North Atlantic from the 1560s through the 1660s. It is not to be confused with the similarly named Friesland in the Netherlands.
    It originally referred to Iceland ("Freezeland"),but after the Zeno Map (1558)placed it as an entirely separate island south (or occasionally south-west) of Iceland, it appeared that way on maps for the next 100 years. Its existence was given currency in manuscript maps of the 1560s by the Maggiolo family of Genoa and was accepted by Mercator and Jodocus Hondius. Some early maps by Willem Blaeu,such as his 1617 map of Europe, omit it, but it reappears on his 1630 world map as one of many islands shown off the eastern coast of Labrador which was then believed to extend to within a few hundred miles of Scotland. Among its last appearances is in a 1652 world map by Visscher,[contradiction] largely copied from that of Blaeu.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisland

    Is this Frisland island actually Ireland of the Laigin?

    Frisland was shown as a roughly rectangular island with three triangular promontories on its western coast.

    Here is the picture of Frisland island:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frisland_Mercator.jpg


    Here is map of Ireland:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keltoi_Tribes.PNG

    Do you see anything similar?Interesting in any case...


    Now in England and Ireland we find Brigantes.

    Is it possible that Phrygians, Frisians and Brigantes are the same People? I mean how many people are called anything similar? And isn't is interesting that it is exactly these pople that have preserved the story of the king with long ears, which originally came from the old Phrygia in the Balkans?

    And what could the name of this nation mean? Is it possible that Phrygians were actually Brigians? In one of the south Slavic dialects the word for a man made hill is Brig. Do you remember the kingdom of Brega, the kingdom of tumuluses in Ireland? Do you remember Tabor Breg, the main tumulus center of Ireland? Are Brigi actually Bregi? Are Brigantes actually Bregantes?Are Phrigians actually Brigians actually Bregians people of the Breg, Tumulus?

    By the way the name Trajan is still used in eastern Serbia as a personal name. And the story about king Trajan's ears is not the only story about king Trajan. There is another one in which the king Trojan, the king of some old city located somewhere in Serbia, goes every night across river Danube, where he visits his mistress. But he has to make sure to return back before the sunrises, or else he will melt.

    http://mirjanadetelic.com/leksikon/gradovi/gradout.php?id=1986&slovo=T&str=1

    We find very similar legend in Russia about the Slavic god Hors:
    Vseslav the prince judged men; as prince, he ruled towns; but at night he prowled in the guise of a wolf. From Kiev, prowling, he reached,before the cocks crew, Tmutorokan. The path of great Hors, as a wolf,prowling, he crossed.
    In other words, prince Vseslav reached Tmutorokan before dawn, thus crossing the path of Hors, the Sun. In the mythical view of the world, the Sun has to pass through the underworld during the night tor each the eastern horizon by the dawn. This, and the fact that prince Vseslav is transformed into a wolf during the night, while "crossing the path of Hors", draws a very interesting parallel with the Serbian Dabog, who, as stated already, was believed to be a lame"wolf shepherd" who rules over the underworld. Of particular interest is the fact that Serbian folk accounts describe him as being lame; lameness was a standing attribute of Greek Hephaestus, whom, as we have seen, the Hypatian Codex compared with Slavic smith-god Svarog, father of Dažbog. (In fact, most of Indo-European smith-gods were lame; the reason for this was most likely arsenicosis,low levels of arsenic poisoning,resulting in lameness and skin cancers.Arsenic was added to bronze to harden it and most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic workplace poisoning.) Serbian Dabog, being lord of underworld, was also associated with precious metals, and sometimes was said to have a silver beard.
    So here we have two stories with the same theme. One story is about Dabog, Hromi Daba,Crom Dubh, The father and the king ancestral king of the Serbs and the another is about king Trojan? Are these two characters one and the same?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog


    Lets see if we can find out what name Trajan means. We can find the answer in Irish:

    Here is another interesting word cluster from Irish language:

    tré- triad - trojstvo
    tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
    tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
    tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
    tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
    treabhcas - tribe - pleme
    treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
    treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
    treabh - plough - plug
    treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
    trea- spear - koplje
    trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is awarrior.
    treas- battle - bitka
    treasair - conquer - osvojiti
    treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
    triath - lord, prince - gospodar, princ


    This is an incredibly important cluster. I have never seen any other word group that describes iron age society in a better way. And it shows us that Trean or Trojan means warrior. So Is Trea Treas, or Troja, Troas the land of warriors? And if so was the original Troja in the Balkans in the second millennium BC and that Troas in Anatolia is the second Troja ? I think that there are things that point to exactly that.

    We know that Hittites, Phrygians and ancient people of the iron age Balkans built tumuluses. Serbian historian Pesic, who first proposed the idea of the Vinca script, and Russian paleography experts have discovered an ancient monogram in Vinca material which was also found in Sarmatian material. The monogram was identified as the symbol of an ancient Pelasgian deity Domatrios, the oldest male deity of Europe. (I would be very grateful to anyone for more material on Domatrios, as i could not find anything on the net). Pesic says that that the meaning of the name of this deity is unclear…

    http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=4917

    Let’s go back to Irish and see if it can help:

    dumha– tumulus. In Slavic languages dumati means to think but also to hold meetings. In Russian duma is parliament, and we know from Irish legends, that parliaments were held on top of tumuluses.

    domatrios= duma triath (tré)= lord (triad, trinity) of the tumulus…
    This brigns us straight back to Ireland and deity Crom Dubh whose one of the names is the head of the mound (tumulus) or lord of the mound(tumulus). And here is the head which is said to represent Crom Dubh.It is the trefaced stone idol of Triglav:


    http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefacts.aspx?article=c9f1d3b1-4474-41ef-a04e-09a6a825e141


    By the way there are several mountains in the Balkans named Trojan. Is it because Trojan was the same as Triglav?

    There is also a folk dance in Serbia called trojanac.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0uNU7s38oQ



    One last thing. The area of the eastern Serbia from which the story of king Trajan's long ears is called Tribalian planes.
    Triballian Plains, Tribalia or Lower Timok is the southern territory of the Timočka Krajina, between Yantra river and Morava river.Its name is derived from the Paleo-Balkan tribe of Triballi who lived in the region.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

    Welcome to the rabbit hole…


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    While we are talking about same people appearing in multiple places at different times, and while we are talking about Mushki (Or Bregi), here is another tribe which seems to be fallowing them around all the way to Ireland: Iberians or Iverians or Iverni.

    In his book "The origin of the Irish race" Mallory expressed skepticism regarding the book if invasions and as an example of how fanciful it is it quoted the part which tells us how the Nemedians sailed from the Caspian Sea all the way to Ireland. Mallory says that this being impossible, the chapter is and example of a later construction which was composed to link the Irish to Scythians and ultimately Christianity. In my opinion this exact chapter certifies that the book of Invasions was compiled from actual old histories. It was later doctored to suit changing ethnic, political and religious needs, but the original material was not an invention but a true description of events that actually happened.

    It is very easy to sale from Caspian Sea to Ireland. You have to use the old Volga trading route up to the Baltic and then from the Baltic sea you follow the old Atlantean trading route down to Ireland and further down to Iberian peninsula. The old Caspian Sea - Baltic sea - Ireland trading route was last used by Varangians in the medieval time. I find it very interesting that in Gaelic texts there are so many references to Varangians, which according to the official history should never have set foot in Ireland...

    Here you have a text about the Volga trade route:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route

    What i find very interesting is that along this trade route we find Iberians in Spain, Iverni or Iberni in Ireland and Iberians at the other end of the trade route in the area between the Black and Caspian sea.
    Iberia (Georgian — იბერია, Latin: Iberia and Greek: Ἰβηρία), also known as Iveria (Georgian: ივერია), was a name given by the ancient Greeks and Romans to the ancient Georgian kingdom of Kartli[1] (4th century BC – 5th century AD), corresponding roughly to the eastern and southern parts of the present day Georgia.[2][3]

    The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors. Iberians called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. One of the Iberian tribes of Mtskheta (the future capital of the Iberian kingdom) dominated the early Kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a prince locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian).

    The similarity of the name with the old inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, the 'Western' Iberians, has led to an idea of ethnogenetical kinship between them and the people of Caucasian Iberia (called the 'Eastern' Iberians).
    It has been advocated by various ancient and medieval authors, although they differed in approach to the problem of the initial place of their origin. The theory seems to have been popular in medieval Georgia. The prominent Georgian religious writer Giorgi Mthatzmindeli (George of Mt Athos) (1009–1065) writes about the wish of certain Georgian nobles to travel to the Iberian peninsula and visit the local Georgians of the West, as he called them

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberians

    So the at the beginning of the the Caspian - Atlantic trade rout we find Iberians ruled by Mushki. And Georgian old chronicles talk about both Atlantean Iberians and Caspian Iberians being of the same origin.

    Now this Caspian Iberian culture is said to be most likely a mix of indigenous culture and (Indo) European culture.
    The area was inhabited in earliest times by several related tribes in Kura-Araxes culture, collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient authors. Locals called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. The Moschi, mentioned by various classic historians, and their possible descendants, the Saspers (who were mentioned by Herodotus), may have played a crucial role in the consolidation of the tribes inhabiting the area. The Moschi had moved slowly to the northeast forming settlements as they traveled. The chief of these was Mtskheta, the future capital of the Iberian kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a principal locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian). The medieval Georgian source Moktsevai Kartlisai (“Conversion of Kartli”) also speaks about Azo and his people, who came from Arian-Kartli – the initial home of the proto-Iberians, which had been under Achaemenid rule until the fall of the Persian Empire – to settle on the site where Mtskheta was to be founded. Another Georgian chronicle Kartlis Tskhovreba (“History of Kartli”) claims Azo to be an officer of Alexander’s, who massacred a local ruling family and conquered the area, until being defeated at the end of the 4th century BC by Prince Pharnavaz, who was at that time a local chief.
    The story of Alexander’s invasion of Kartli, although entirely fictional, nevertheless reflects the establishment of Georgian monarchy in the Hellenistic period and the desire of later Georgian literati to connect this event to the celebrated conqueror.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
    Arian Kartli (Aryan-Kartli; Georgian: არიან-ქართლი) was a country claimed by the medieval Georgian chronicle "The Conversion of Kartli" (მოქცევაჲ ქართლისაჲ, mokc’evay k’art’lisay) to be the earlier homeland of the Georgians of Kartli (Iberia, central and eastern Georgia).
    The Georgian Chronicles relate the apocryphal story of Alexander the Great’s campaign into inner Georgia. Alexander reportedly brought Azoy (Azo), the son of the unnamed "king of Arian-Kartli", together with followers, to Mtskheta, principal city of Kartli, and charged him with the administration of Kartli in his absence. The 11th-century Georgian monk Arsen, the author of metaphrastical reduction of "The life of St. Nino" and tutor of King David IV of Georgia, comments on this passage: "We, Georgians, are descendants of the newcomers from Arian-Kartli, we speak their language and all the kings of Kartli are descendents of their kings".[1]
    The identification of a polity medieval Georgian writers called Arian Kartli remains problematic. It seems to have preceded the Near Eastern conquests of Alexander the Great, but the precise location of this "kingdom", the date of its foundation, and the identity of its rulers cannot be determined by means of surviving documentary evidence. The word "Aryan" (Noble) comes from the ancient Indian language called Sanskrit suggesting the connection to Indo-Aryans. (Arian Kartli/Aryan Kartli) and Classical sources scholars have inferred that this land lay within the orbit of Achaemenid Empire. Herodotus' list of the Achaemenid provinces, which places the proto-Georgian tribes within the 13th and 19th satrapies, is significant in this regard.[2] These territories partially correspond to the historical Georgian southwest where a number of Georgian scholars, notably Giorgi Melikishvili, tend to place Aryan Kartli.
    The early Georgian kingdom of Kartli/Iberia, which clearly emerges in historical accounts of Hellenistic period, seems to have shared the Iranian bonds of Arian Kartli.[2] Cyril Toumanoff equates the region with the Aranē (Greek: ‘Αράνη) of Ptolemy (V.6.18) and the Harrana of the Hittites.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian-Kartli

    So where is this Arian land from which the future rulers of Iberians came and who were they? I propose Balkans and the Vincans during the copper and bronze age of the fourth and third millennium BC. Then Mushki the Iron age Balkan people during the early part of the first millennium BC.

    The Caspian Iberians are linked to Kura–Araxes culture.
    The Kura–Araxes culture or the early trans-Caucasian culture (Armenian: Քուռ-Արաքսի մշակույթ, Georgian: მტკვარ-არაქსის კულტურა), was a civilization that existed from 3400 BC until about 2000 BC,[1] which has traditionally been regarded as the date of its end, but it may have disappeared as early as 2600 or 2700 BC.[2] The earliest evidence for this culture is found on the Ararat plain; thence it spread to Georgia by 3000 BC (but never reaching Colchis[3]), and during the next millennium it proceeded westward to the Erzurum plain, southwest to Cilicia, and to the southeast into an area below the Urmia basin and Lake Van, and finally down to the borders of present day Syria. Altogether, the early Trans-Caucasian culture, at its greatest spread, enveloped a vast area approximately 1,000 km by 500 km.[4]


    Economy

    The economy was based on farming and livestock-raising (especially of cattle and sheep).[8] They grew grain and various orchard crops, and are known to have used implements to make flour. They raised cattle, sheep, goats, dogs, and in its later phases, horses (introduced around 3000 BCE, probably by Indo-European speaking tribes from the North).[8]
    There is evidence of trade with Mesopotamia, as well as Asia Minor.[8] It is, however, considered above all to be indigenous to the Caucasus, and its major variants characterized (according to Caucasus historian Amjad Jaimoukha) later major cultures in the region.[8]
    Metallurgy


    The extent of the Kuro-Araxes culture (light shading) shown in relation to subsequent cultures in the area, such as Urartu (dark shading).
    In its earliest phase, metal was scant, but it would later display "a precocious metallurgical development which strongly influenced surrounding regions".[9] They worked copper, arsenic, silver, gold,[3] tin, and bronze.[7]
    Their metal goods were widely distributed, recorded in the Volga, Dnieper and Don-Donets systems in the north, into Syria and Palestine in the south, and west into Anatolia.


    Culture

    The culture is closely linked to the approximately contemporaneous Maykop culture of Transcaucasia. As Amjad Jaimoukha puts it,
    The Kura-Araxes culture was contiguous, and had mutual influences, with the Maikop culture in the Northwest Caucasus. According to E.I.Krupnov (1969:77), there were elements of the Maikop culture in the early memorials of Chechnya and Ingushetia in the Meken and Bamut kurgans and in Lugovoe in Serzhen-Yurt. Similarities between some features and objects of the Maikop and Kura-Araxes cultures, such as large square graves, the bold-relief curvilinear ornamentation of pottery, ochre-coloured ceramics, earthen hearth props with horn projections, flint arrowheads, stone axes and copper pitchforks are indicative of a cultural unity that pervaded the Caucasus in the Neolithic Age.[11]
    Inhumation practices are mixed. Flat graves are found, but so are substantial kurgan burials, the latter of which may be surrounded by cromlechs. This points to a heterogeneous ethno-linguistic population (see section below).[citation needed] Late in the history of this culture, its people built kurgans of greatly varying sizes, containing greatly varying amounts and types of metalwork, with larger, wealthier kurgans surrounded by smaller kurgans containing less wealth.[12] This trend suggests the eventual emergence of a marked social hierarchy.[12] Their practice of storing relatively great wealth in burial kurgans was probably a cultural influence from the more ancient civilizations of the Fertile Crescent to the south.[13]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture

    So we see that Kura-Araxes culture traded along the same Volga trading route and along other rivers in the area. This suggests that they used boats for transport. They also traded with Mesopotamia and Asia minor both areas where we find Vinca culture inspired new civilizations at the same time.

    Also the burrial practices are showing us that the population was mixed and that the elite was burried in Curgans (tumuluses, bregs) the same like all the other cultures somehow related to Ireland and the Balkans. But this is the most interesting: "substantial kurgan burials were in some cases surrounded by cromlechs"

    What is a Cromlech?
    Cromlech is a Brythonic word (Breton/Cornish/Welsh) used to describe prehistoric megalithic structures, where crom means "bent" or "curved" and llech means "slab" or "flagstone".[1] The term is now virtually obsolete in archaeology, but remains in use as a colloquial term for two different types of megalithic monument.
    In English it usually refers to dolmens, the remains of prehistoric stone chamber tombs.[2] However, it is widely used in French and Spanish to describe stone circles. Confusingly, some English-speaking archaeologists, such as Aubrey Burl, use this second meaning for cromlech in English too.[3]
    In addition, the term is occasionally used to describe more complex examples of megalithic architecture, such as the Almendres Cromlech in Portugal.[4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromlech
    http://www.libraryireland.com/Antiquities/I-I.php

    Now half way between Iberia in the east and Iberia in the west we find Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or as it was once known as Pomerania or Pomorje, the land of Slavic sea pirates and possible land of Fomori. And what do we find there?
    In the area of present-day Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany, up to 5,000 megalith tombs were erected as burial sites by people of the Neolithic Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture. More than 1,000 of them are preserved today and protected by law. Though varying in style and age, megalith structures are common in Western Europe, with those in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern belonging to the youngest and easternmost—further east, in the modern West Pomeranian Voivodeship of Poland, monuments erected by the TRB people did not include lithic structures, while they do in the south (Brandenburg), west (Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein) and north (Denmark).

    The megaliths in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern were erected as burial sites in the Neolithic, by the bearers of the Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture,[1][2] between 3,500 and 3,200 BC.[3] Initially, the TRB people buried their dead in pits, often covered with mounds of clay.[2] Later, they erected dolmens for this purpose,[2] but also continued the use of flat graves.[1] All megaliths were erected during a relatively short time period, spanning about 200 years or about seven generations, with the oldest ones dating to phase C of the Early Neolithic, while most were built in the beginning of the Middle Neolithic.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaliths_in_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern


    What happened in Pomerania? Is this the place where Vinca culture spreading from the Balkans northwards met Megalitic Atlantean culture? One other thing is very interesting. If we look at who built these megaliths in Pomerania, we see that they were built by funnel beaker people.
    The Funnel(-neck-)beaker culture, short TRB or TBK from (German) Trichter(-rand-)becherkultur (ca 4100 BC–ca 2800 BC) was an archaeological culture in north-central Europe. It developed as a technological merger of local neolithic and mesolithic techno-complexes between the lower Elbe and middle Vistula rivers, introducing farming and husbandry as a major source of food to the pottery-using hunter-gatherers north of this line.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture

    Where was the center of this megalith culture which introduced farming and husbandry? It was in the area between Elbe and Vistula, in Pomeranija, the land of Pomori or Fomori. These funnel beaker people descend from Stroke-ornamented ware people who we already mentioned as the guys who first built rondel enclosures or henges.

    One very interesting thing about funnel beaker people is that they probably introduced the milk tolerance gene into European population. The distribution of this gene corresponds with the distribution of the funnel beaker culture. But genetically (from the point of view of the male chromosome) this area is very diverse. Actually milk tolerance corresponds most closely with the distribution of the R1b chromosome. Is the R1b the carrier of the Atlantean Megalith culture and and if so where and how did it land in Europe, considering its distribution from west to east? Did it arrive from Caspian Iberia on boats that sailed up Volga river, along the south Baltic coast, and then landed in Ireland Iberia and finally ended up in Atlantic Iberia? Or was the other way round?

    Now what is very interesting is the culture that comes after the funnel beaker culture and which is a continuation of the funnel beaker culture: the Corded Ware culture. If we have a look at the spread of the Corded Ware culture, we see that it corresponds with the distribution of Baltic Slavic and Germanic languages. It also corresponds with the distribution of the R1a Y chromosome as well I2 chromosome in Europe.

    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DNA-Testing/message/1226


    It also corresponds with the territory between river Elbe and river Volga the western most and eastern most edges of the Baltic - Caspian trade route. This is the territory which represents the mixing ground between I2 and R1a and, i believe, the birth place of the (Indo) Europeans. If we look at the distribution of the I2 chromosome, we see that both I2a and I2b have spikes around Volga river. Is this because of the ancient Volga trade route? I think so.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml


    If we look at the I2a and I2b distribution in Europe we clearly see that the Balkan Baltic region jumps out as the homeland of the I2. This is the exact place where we later find the Celts, and south western Slavs, Germanics and Balts. The same people the same place the same genes, the same language...

    Now the last but not the least. Our Mushki who came from the Balkans never appear in Hittite records as a separate nation. Is it because Hitties new that Mushi means men, solders, lords and is not a name for a tribe? Were Mushki just Hittite solders? If we look at the distribution of the Balkan I2a Y chromosome we see that it closely corresponds with the borders of the old Hittite empire and even better with the borders of the Asyrian empire and Sumeran empire. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. We know that the Vinca type artifacts started appearing in Mesopotamia in the mid 4th millennium BC, right after Vincans decided to go and conquer the world. They brought with them their genes, their culture and their shoes. The clue is in the shoe. :)

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Dublinviking, I sure hope you are saving this material somewhere else or in some other format, as well as here.
    It would be a shame if your research got lost in cyberspace. These things happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    slowburner

    thanks for your concern. I am. I was burnt once before. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Speaking about the Mushki and the link between the Serbs, the Irish and the Georgians i came across this article today which says that based on the frequency of the oldest genetic marker HG2 (no idea what that is so would be grateful if someone would explain it to me and the others), Serbs are more related to the Irish, Scandinavians and the Georgians than to the rest of the Slavs.

    Here is the article in Serbian:

    http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/reportaze/aktuelno.293.html:433640-Srbi-po-genima-blizi-Ircima-nego-Rusima#.UZFB7aYL8P0.facebook

    According to the article Serbs have the most of this HG2 (what ever it is) and here is the concentration and the spreading path diagram. It shows that the gene has originated in Serbia and has then spread towards Georgia and towards Scandinavia and Ireland...

    http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2013//05/13n/0513-Najstariji-gen_N.jpg

    It talks about some research done by Graham Coop. I believe this is the correct article about the results of the research:

    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Serb, Sarb, Sirb. All different writing and pronunciation of of the same name for the mountain people of Central Europe.

    Here is a peculiar dance from Romania called Sirbian (Serbian) dance. What does it remind you of?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirba

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GDN9NSAo-WM


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Have a look at this. When I was I kid I remember seeing an old wooden cross standing in the middle of a field just outside my dad’s village. It was at the edge of the village land, the same like in Ireland and other Celtic lands where holly land is the land that separates tribes. It was a place where village "slava" or the ancestral celebration was celebrated every year. It was always covered in flowers and people used to bring food and drink to it and light candles in front of it. This is still a living tradition in Serbia...


    Imagine my surprise when later in life i discovered "celtic" crosses...


    http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3010/dscn3999.jpg
    http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/420/copyofzapisdobardesktop.jpg
    http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/186/leskovacstarisrpskikrstbl6.th.jpg
    http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5314/copy4ofvlasotince4.jpg
    http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/211/copy3ofvlasotince4.jpg
    http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7742/copy2ofvlasotince4.jpg
    http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5350/copyofvlasotince4.jpg
    http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3842/copyofspomenicileksovac.jpg

    So for me going to Ireland was like going to my second home in a way...

    You will not find any mention of this in any Serbian history books. No one cares. As if these people and their culture doesn't exist. The only work ever written on this is an obscure little book written by a local school teacher come historian.

    By the way the same culture exists in the east Baltic, the land of Pruteni (Prussians). I am about to talk about this if I ever get a chance....

    Also did you know that the first "Celtic" crosses came to Ireland from England and were based on earlier wooden crosses and that the oldest wooden "celtic" cross was found in Viking dublin?


    The same area of Serbia has a peculiar grammatical construct. They use "na" to express belonging:


    Q: "na koga je ovo kuče" (of or on whom is this hound) whose hound is this? This implies belonging or owning being equaled to having the thing in question on one person. This construct is used only for material goods and animals and not for members of the family. This construct is ancient and comes from the time when everything you owned was on you.


    A: na petra. (of or on peter)

    ovo je kuče na petra (this is the hound on or of petar)

    This construct exists in Irish and in this dialect of Serbian which is spoken in my birth place.

    Mac na Mara - the son of (na) the sea

    By the the word for hound (wolf) is the same in Irish and Serbian (Cu, Ku)

    Ku - wolf hound
    Ku-ja - she wolf hound
    ku-ce - male or baby wolf hound


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Opanak
    Opanak (Serbian Cyrillic: Опанак; Macedonian: Опинок; Bulgarian: цървул[a]) are traditional peasant shoes worn in Southeastern Europe (specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia). The attributes of the Opanci (name in plural) are: a construction of leather, lack of laces, durable, and various ending on toes. In Serbia, the design of the horn-like ending on toes indicates the region of origin. The concept, and the word, exists in Romania (as opincă) which is borrowed from Slavic. The Opanci are considered a national symbol of Serbia, and the traditional peasant footwear for people in the Balkan region.

    Official Etymology
    Serbo-Croatian "opanak", and Bulgarian and Macedonian "опинок", all ultimately derive from Proto-Slavic *opьnъkъ, which itself is a compound of the prepositional *o(b)- "around, on, etc." with final *b assimilated and the resulting greminated consonant cluster *pp being simplified to *p, and the vrddhi-lenghthened root vowel of the verb *pęti, originally meaning "to strain, move" (cf. modern standard Serbo-Croatian verbs conveying the same notion such as nàpēti/на̀пе̄ти, pròpēti/про̀пе̄ти, ràspēti/ра̀спе̄ти, pòpēti/по̀пе̄ти..), but subsequently coming to mean "to climb" (whence the meaning of modern standard Serbo-Croatian pȇti/пе̑ти, pènjati/пѐњати). So literally, opanak would roughly mean "climbing footwear".[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak


    Here is an excellent web site on European peasant footwear:

    http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm


    The oldest mention of a footwear that looks like Opanak is found in Azerbaijan. In Sanscrit, the footwear similar to opanak is called upanah (upana). Official etymology is that it comes from upa - to tie up, and nat to bend. It is still worn in certain parts of India as part of Ceremonial dress. We can find depictions of opanak in Iran, Afghanistan, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and in Europe from Balkans to Baltic and in Ireland.

    In the Balkans only male opanak has the "beak", the front part that curls upwards. It is a symbol of a male genitalia.

    Now interestingly enough one culture where we see opanak everywhere are Hittites.


    Hittit opanak

    Seal of Muwattalli I, depicted in the embrace of the Storm God of Heaven. His Hittite name ‘Muwattalli’ is written on the left, while his Hurrian name, ‘Šarri-Teššup’, is written on the right.

    http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwattalli_1_seal_1.gif


    Rock inscription of Muwattalli I at Fraktin

    http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwattalli_1_fraktin.gif


    Yazılıkaya (Hatusha)

    http://www.atamanhotel.com/whc/hattusa-yazilikaya-relief.html

    http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_42ff-345x256.jpg
    http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_64-250x346.jpg
    http://www.hattuscha.de/02-143_81-300x361.jpg

    Various rock carvings

    http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9490/3100408082c9526a6846.jpg
    http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1126/0038ji.jpg
    http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2857/38738766mimg2803zf7.jpg
    http://antique.mrugala.net/Mesopotamie/Images/Hittites%20-%20offrande.jpg
    http://www.hittitemonuments.com/bor/bor05.jpg
    http://i41.tinypic.com/21j4toi.jpg


    Ilirian Opanak

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/HallstattIllyrianCeltic.jpg

    The Oldest Known Well-Preserved Leather Shoe from Armenia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_shoe#cite_note-2

    Irih early medieval leather shoe

    http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviii136.jpg
    http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviiib.html

    Now here is the best bit:

    In Irish we again have a word opanak and the word for sole of the foot taban identical to the corresponding words in Serbian. We also have the complete etymology of these words:

    bonn - base, sole of the foot
    tob - quick, instant
    tobaine - quickness, suddenness
    tobann - sudden, hasty, quick
    obann - swift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar)

    obann probably comes from o+bonn, on sole of the foot, what we put on sole of the foot, on the base and which makes us swift.

    ach - an ending for making a noun from an adjective

    oban + ack = obannach = opanak = what makes us swift

    in Serbian a word taban means sole of the foot. Tabanati means to run, to go quickly.

    Tobann = T+obann = Taban - Sole of the foot, Quick

    In Serbian there is also a word "opa!" exclamation which people say when they are jumping and which also means to jump. "opati" means to jump.

    How did these two words get to be in Serbian, other south Slavic languages and Irish? I think that it has to be second millennium BC at the time when Mushki went to Asia minor to form Hittite empire. Mushki, the manly solders with opanak which has a beak pointing up to show that they are Mushki (men)? Or maybe even earlier? Any ideas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Papuča (plural: Papuče pronounced papuche)

    Papuča is a word which in Serbian today means slipper but is actually just another word for the same type of simple leather sole footwear of type opanak.


    Here is the official etymology:
    From Ottoman Turkish پابوج (pâbûc), from Persian پاپوش (pā-puš).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papu%C4%8Da


    Now what is the word for slipper in various languages:

    Albanian - heqël
    Afrikaans - pantoffel
    Arabic - something that sounds like shimsam

    Here is a discussion on various words for shoes used in Arabic languages, just to make sure the word did not come from Arabic languages:

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1272771

    Armenian - hoghat’ap’
    Azerbaijani - otaq ayaqqabısı
    Basque - eskarpia (Sout), eskarpiña (old B) n. ‘slipper’.
    Berber - bálgha
    Belorussian - Тапачкі (tapachki)
    Bosnian - papuča
    Bulgarian - чехъл (chehl)
    Catalan - sabatilla
    Croatian - papuča
    Czech - pantofel
    Danish - tøffel
    Dutch - pantoffel
    English - slipper
    Estonian - suss
    Finnish - tohveli
    French - pantoufle, babouche (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babouche)
    Galician - chinelos
    German - Pantoffel
    Greek - pantófla
    Gujarati - Campala
    Hindi - Slipara
    Hungarian - papucs
    Italian - pantofola
    Latin - CREPIDA
    Latvian - tupele or Čības
    Lithuanian - šlepetė or šliurė
    Macedonian - пантофли (pantofli)
    Maltese - krepiduli, papoċċ
    Norwegian - tøffel
    Persian - pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering."
    Polish - pantofel
    Portugese - chinelo
    Romaian - papuc
    Russian - тапочка (tapuchka)
    Serbian - папуча (papucha)
    Slovak - pantofel
    Spanish - zapatilla, pantufla, babucha (clearly showing influence from many languages)
    Swedish - toffel
    Turkish - terlik
    Ukrainian - Гапочка (gapochka)
    Yiddish - Ştʻqşwk


    Here is a discussion on Iberian words for slipper and shoe:
    Iberian Peninsula and recorded also north of the Pyrenees: Hispano-Arabic pargha ~ bargha ‘sandals’, sg. parghat (mod. Arabic and Berber bálgha ‘slipper, shoe’), Mozarabic probable *parca, Portuguese alparca ‘sandal’, an apparent Old Cast. alparga ‘sandal’, Arag. and SE Spain albarca id., Valencia abarca {avarca}, Bearn. abarque id. Cast. alpargata id. derives from the same ult. source via Arabic...

    http://www.blogseitb.us/basque_boise/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Etymological-Dictionary-of-Basque.pdf

    From the above we can see that the word "Papuča" or a similar word is used for a footwear in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Persian, Ottoman Turkish, French, Spanish but not in Arabic languages, Latin, Greek nor in eastern Slavic and Germanic languages.

    Why am i boring you with this?

    Because of this:
    Pampooties are raw-hide shoes, which were formerly made and worn on the Aran Islands of County Galway, Ireland. They are formed of a single piece of untanned hide folded around the foot and stitched with twine or a leather strap.[1]
    Hide from the buttocks was most often used. The hair was usually left and this improved the shoe's grip.[2] The raw hide is kept flexible by use and the constant damp conditions of Western Ireland. However the shoes are not made to last. They are prone to rot and were usually kept for as little as a month or less.[3]
    Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes. They are also similar in appearance to American moccasins.[2] Ancient shoes found preserved from Stone Age Europe have a similar design.[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie

    These early shoes (slippers) were being worn in Ireland as early as the late iron age and early medieval period. This is confirmed by the examples found in Irish bogs and which can be seen in the Irish national museum. They were still made and worn in 1950 in exactly the same way in Aran Islands, the most remote and westernmost Island off the coast of Ireland. They were probably worn in Ireland even earlier as they represent the the most rudimentary type of leather footwear and are almost identical to the Armenian prehistoric shoe. Here is an instruction how to make the Pampooties and how to wear them:

    http://www.rosieandglenn.co.uk/TheLibrary/Costume/CnTGuides/HowtoMake/EarlyASCostume/EarlyShoes.htm

    Here is an article about 18th century Scottish highland shoes. In the article you can among other find this:
    Just like the Native American, the Highlander lived in a society where hunting and limited migration formed a large part of daily life. The practicality of the bag-shoe, like the Native American moccasin, was hard to improve upon.

    http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm

    What this is saying is that up until 20th century peasants did not have fashion. What worked was made and was used and was worn unchanged for thousands of years. These shoes are a perfect example. Because there is no change in the object, there is certainly no change in the name of the object. So we can assume that the name for these Irish and Scottish shoes was pampootie (paputie, papuche) at least as far back as the early medieval time.

    Ron Pinhasi, the man who found the Armenian prehistoric shoe and a lecturer in archaeology at the University College Cork in Cork, Ireland said:
    Interestingly, the Armenian shoe is very similar to the “pampooties” worn in the Aran Islands on Ireland’s west coast up to the 1950s. “In fact, enormous similarities exist between the manufacturing technique and style of the [Armenian] shoe and those found across Europe at later periods, suggesting that this type of shoe was worn for thousands of years across a large and environmentally diverse region.”


    http://today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/PRN-2-world-s-oldest-shoe-160052.aspx


    In England we find this old word:
    Babouche - Etymology: from French babouche and Arabic بابوش, from Persian pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering." a chiefly oriental slipper made without heel or quarters.[2][3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Persian_origin


    Now can anyone here explain to me how is it possible that if the origin of the word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) is indeed Persian, we find pampootie in Iron Age Ireland?

    Unless the origin of the word is not Persian but it actually comes from the prehistoric Balkans again.

    What if word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originated in the Balkans and was brought to Ireland at some stage of the Vinca or some later bronze or iron age migration? And what if word was brought to Persia and north Africa from the Balkans during Ottoman time when Ottoman Turkish was hugely influenced by the South Slavic languages?
    The Slavic influence

    One of the unexpected results of the Ottoman expansion was an active penetration of Slavic ethnics into the Ottoman armed forces (Janissaries) and even into the ruling elite. Serbians were particularly numerous and the Serbian language could be heard in the Ottoman court; it was used in official documents alongside with Turkish. The Italian historian Paolo Giovio who compiled a book on Turkish history, wrote: “At the court [of Suleyman The Magnificent] several languages are spoken. Turkish is the language of the ruler; Arabic is the language of the Muslim Law, Koran; Slavic (sclavonica) is mostly used by the Janissaries, and Greek is the language of the populace of the capital and other cities of Greece.”
    The Polish traveller Strijkowskij wrote that in 1574, when he was in Istanbul, he heard with his own ears kobzari (bards) singing songs in Serbian in the streets and in the taverns about victories of valiant Muslims over the Christians.
    Bassano, an Italian visitor to Suleyman’s court, claimed that “he [the sultan] respected and highly valued his wife [Roxolana] and understood her native language to some extent.” One of the sultan’s viziers was Rustem-pasha, a Serb or a Croat.
    Ukraine, except for some areas and not for long, was never conquered by the Ottomans but it became a steady source of supplies of white slaves to the empire. The Crimean Tartars were the main suppliers. Mykhailo Lytvyn, a Ukrainian diplomat in the service of the Lithuanian government, wrote in his memoirs dating to 1548–1551 that the krymchaky (Crimean Tartars) engaged only in two trades — cattle-breeding and capturing Ukrainians to be sold to the Ottomans as slaves. “The ships that often come to their ports from across the sea, bring weapons, clothes and horses which are exchanged for slaves who are loaded into these ships. And all the Ottoman bazaars are full of these slaves who are sold and bought to be used in the households, to be resold, to be given as presents… There was one Jew, amazed at the great numbers of these slaves to be seen at the slave markets, who asked whether there were any people left in the land where these slaves are brought from.”

    http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20044/74

    If the footwear and its name pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originate in the Balkans, that would explain the distribution of this word and the type of footwear much better i think. But is there anything else that could prove that pampootie and Papuče are one and the same and that they come from some old proto Irish-Serbian language? There is:

    Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie
    Ghillies are specially designed shoes used for several types of dance. They are soft shoes, similar to ballet shoes. They are used by women in Irish dance, by men in Scottish country dance, and by men and women in Highland dance.
    Ghillies are also sometimes known by a variety of other names that include: light shoes, pomps, pumps, and soft shoes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillies
    The following is a brief outline of regional Scottish footwear forms in the first half of the 18th century. The terms "pampootie" (Hebridean and Outer Isles), "cuaran" (Highland Gaelic or Erse), and "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant) all denote one specific form of footwear ‹ the primitive bag-shoe or European moccasin fashioned from hairy rawhide ‹ generally known as "rivelin." Examples of this form of footwear go back to the early Bronze Age in Northern Europe...

    http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm


    This is the important bit: "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant)...

    In Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (Dinaric languages) there is a word "gilje" which is a word for shoes. "giljati" is a word for walking. In Gaelic we have gillie a servant, someone who you send to walk for you and do errands and "ghillie" for poor people's papuche or opanke shoes.

    This again shows the connection between Irish and Serbian culture and language which does not exist in other European languages and which i believe points to their coexistence in a very distant past, probably in the Balkans during Vinca time or even earlier.

    Interestingly the Armenia (Georgia), Ireland and England and the Balkans are again the same area where we find mushki and bregians...


    If anyone has a better explanation for this i would like to hear it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Maybe pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuche) all come from papuk or papak or have the same root with the word papak. Papak is Serbian word for cloven hoof found in sheep, pigs, goats, cows and deer.


    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papak

    A cloven hoof is a hoof split into two toes. This is found on members of the mammalian order Artiodactyla. Examples of mammals that possess this type of hoof are deer and sheep.[1]
    The two digits of cloven hoofed animals are homologous to the third and fourth fingers of the hand. They are called claws and are named for their relative location on the foot: the outer, or lateral, claw and the inner, or medial claw. The space between the two claws is called the interdigital cleft; the area of skin is called the interdigital skin. The hard outer covering of the hoof is called the hoof wall, or horn. It is a hard surface, similar to the human fingernail.[2]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloven_hoof


    The hard outer covering can be pilled off with a knife and it resembles a shoe a covering for the soft bottom of the foot or hoof.

    In folklore and popular culture, a cloven hoof has long been associated with the Devil.

    This is quite interesting as it gives us a link into Irish:


    péac - peak, point
    áibhirseoir - adversary, devil


    péac ón áibhirseoir - expression meaning limb of satan, and because satan has sheep or goats limbs, the limb of satan is cloven hoof of a sheep or a goat. so péac is cloven hoof as well.


    ba - root word for many words associated with sheep, and an onomatopoeic word for sheep as well so it probably is the old word for sheep.


    babag - tassle, bunch or hair, wool
    bachlag - a shoot, a curl, Irish bachlóg. This word is intersting.
    bachal - shepards staff
    bàbhun - enclosure for cattle (sheep), ring fort. In medieval Serbian and Bosnian documents there is repeated mention of Babuni as being the simple folk, sheppards, mountain people, non christians and babun language which was banned.
    bàdhan - a churchyard (Sutherland), i.e. "enclosure", same as bàbhun.
    bán - white (like wool. olann (irish) = woolen (english) = vunen (serbian))
    banair - sheep fold
    Cabhan = grassy hill
    Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?


    bá - stupid (in Serbia we say stupid like a sheep)


    so


    ba + péac = bapéac = papak = cloven hoof...

    bapéaca - bapuca - pampoota -papuča - what is pulled over a hoof or a foot to protected it???

    Interesting anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    I have this correspondence with someone regarding my last post on another thread. I believe it is worth posting it here as well.

    hi Garry

    Thanks for your help and suggestions.
    I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist.


    I like how shoehorning sounds in this context :)

    Just few clarifications:

    péac ón áibhirseoir = 'limb of Satan'


    This is not my interpretation. I found it in Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary as one of the phrases where the word péac is used. Now from this i deduced, and maybe i am wrong, that péac can also mean a sheep or goat or cow limlb (cloven hoof). I hope this makes things a little clearer about this etymology. By the way i recommend the dictionary it is excellent.
    This seems to be based upon MacBain again. His etymological dictionary refers to Scottish Gaelic, not Irish.

    I try to consult as many sources relating to both Irish and Scottish Gaelic. I do that because some old (Celtic Serbian Irish) words were preserved better in Scotland than in Ireland. In Ireland they were sometimes gaelicised almost beyond recognition.

    The Irish for sheep is caora or caorach. It has nothing to do with 'ba'.

    Agreed, never claimed that the Irish word for sheep is ba. I said that it might have been. In modern Serbian the word for sheep is ovca, but in old Serbian we find brav or b(a)rav. The reason why i suggested the existence of word "ba" is because from what i have found so far all the major domestic and wild animals in Serbian have onomatopoeic names. So sheep would be "baaaa" or "baeee" or "beee". Why do i think that people originally used characteristic sounds of animals as their names? Because we are talking the beginning of the language. There were no words, yet people wanted to communicate and pass a message. In case of sheep, the message was simple: Look there is a sheep! Except that they did not have a word for sheep and even if someone decided to call a sheep a sheep, he had no way of explaining to the others what sheep is, because there was no language yet. But everyone have seen a sheep, and have heard a sheep. So if you imitate the sound of a sheep, everyone knows what you are talking about. So "baaa" or "ba" conveys the message: "look there is a sheep" perfectly and simply. Later on people invented other words for sheep, but that was much later when they had a language as means to associate these "sheep" words with "sheep" meaning.

    In Irish and in Serbian we have similar onomatopoeic name for cow "bo". This comes from the actual sound of cows which is something between "mpbvooo", "mpbvoouu" "mpbvuuu". Here is a recording:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM

    You can see that i have put "mpbv" at the beginning. "mpbv" it the undifferentiated sound created by opening your lips and blowing air out. You start with m then go to p then to b and at the very end you get v. This is exactly what you hear when you are listening to cows, and probably what people imitated when they wanted to tell each other that there is a cow somewhere around. Another reason why i put "mpbv" at the beginning of the word is because it is quite difficult to differentiate these sounds without proper training. This is why babies are "babbling", which means they are making "mpbv" sound until they acquire a sufficient control of their speech apparatus. Today this is relatively easy as we get a lot of this skill prepackaged in our genes through epigenetic inheritances, although not everyone gets the same genes and this is why we have languages that sound different. But at the beginning of the language development, people were still trying to learn how to control their mouths to make differentiated sounds and this is why i believe they used "mpbv" sound in "mpbvaaa" or "mpbvoo". This is also the reason why we have words like this:

    bó (Irish) - cow
    vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating.

    but we also have all these other bo (vo) related words in Serbian which don't exist in Irish:

    bo - stab
    bosti - to stab
    ubo - stabbed
    bodež - knife

    But also this:


    A boyar, or bolyar (Bulgarian: боляр or болярин; Ukrainian: буй or боярин; Russian: боя́рин, tr. boyarin; IPA: [bɐˈjarʲɪn]; Romanian: boier [boˈjer] (help·info); Greek: βογιάρος), was a member of the highest rank of the feudal Bulgarian, Moscovian, Kievan Rus'ian, Wallachian, and Moldavian aristocracies, second only to the ruling princes (in Bulgaria, tsars), from the 10th century to the 17th century. The rank has lived on as a surname in Russia, Romania, and Finland, where it is spelt Pajari.[1]

    Etymology
    The word is likely derived from the plural form of the Bulgarian title boila ("noble"), bolyare, which is attested in Bulgar inscriptions[2][3] and rendered as boilades or boliades in the Greek of Byzantine documents.[4][5] Its ultimate derivation is probably from the Turkic roots bai ("noble, rich"; cf. "bey") and är ("man, men").[4] Another possible etymology of the term it may come from the Romanian word "boi" (bulls); a rich man is an owner of bulls or "boier".[6] The title entered Old Russian as быля (bylya)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar

    Let me suggest alternative etymology which corresponds with already proposed romanian one. Tho word Boyar comes from bó + àire = cow (cattle) + lord. We actially find bó àire in Irish texts describing the Iron age proliferation of ring forts, where each ring fort was owned by a bóàire or a cattle lord. This title was imposed on the Eastern Slavs during the process of merging of the Central European Celts (Western Slavs) and the Rus (Eastern Slavs). Remember how Dumha means tumulus in Irish, but also a place of councils, parliament in Russian. In old Ireland tumuluses were used as places of tribal councils and parliaments where kings were elected for instance. In Brega one of the tumuluses was actually converted into a royal fort. This merging of Celts and Russ basically meant that Celtic (Serbian, west Slavic) military elite became ruling caste of the Russ. This process was described in "The book of Veles" a much disputed ancient Slavic manuscript, but which i believe to be based on actual histories because i found in it things that could not have been invented in 19th or 20th century as the knowledge necessary to forge these things did not exist at the time. From that period of merging we have these words as well:

    Mol, Moladh (Irish). Meanings

    commend(vt)
    commend(vt)
    hub(n m1)(of wheel)
    nominate(vt)(propose)
    propose(vt)
    praise(vt)
    recommend(vt)
    suggest(vt)

    Mol, Molba (Serbian). Meanings

    Praise
    Beg
    Plead
    Suggest

    Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
    Mol-ba Pleading
    Mol-io bih - If i could suggest

    Moladjec (Molad je (e) - c) - recommended is - a commendation given to a someone

    Badhan/badhún is derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún). Your grassy hill (= cabhan) is based on the root word cab/cabha (= mouth/hollow/bend) which itself is related to Latin caberna (= hollow/cave/vault).


    As for grassy hill (cabhan) i would suggest another etymology:


    bán - white (like wool, or milk). Here i think you can see the old word bá + n as meaning that color which looks like things we get from the thing that says "bá". The word bán could have even been used to denote sheep as wee see here:

    àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord

    banair - sheep fold. Probably comes from banaire - place for caring, owning, keeping sheep.

    Now these two words:

    Cabhan = grassy hill
    Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?

    I believe that they come from the same root: ga + ban = stick, spear, stake + sheep. This perfectly describes sheparding: you go to a grassy hill with your sheep and your stick or spear (ga) where you mind the sheep while they graze. Then you bring them to gaban or sheep, cattle pond where you milk them and protect them during the night. The person who carries a stick (ga) and is minding sheep (ba(n)) is gaban (shepard) and he wears gabanicu (hooded rain gown). Speaking of Badhan/badhún being derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún), in Serbian we have another interesting word: katun (gadun). This word means shepards settlement in the mountains during summer grazing period. This comes from Ga (stake) and dun (which actually does not mean fort but enclosure). so Gadun is an enclosure made of stakes, ring fort.

    We also have this word

    Baodhan, baoghan - a calf.

    http://archive.org/stream/gaelicnamesofbea00forbuoft/gaelicnamesofbea00forbuoft_djvu.txt

    I actually believe that this word used to mean lamb as well or any cattle (cows, sheep) descendant. This comes from:

    ba, bo (sheep, cow)

    +

    ogha - grandchild, Irish ó, ua, g. ui, a grandson, descendant,

    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.O

    so ba(o)oghan - a child of a sheep or cow


    We also have this cluster of words:

    Irish

    bleagh - milk
    bleachdair - milk man
    bleoghainn - milking
    agh - field, meadow
    le - with, by
    leagh (Scottish Gaelic) - melt, thaw, dissolve (in liquid) (make liquid)
    leacht (Irish) - liquid
    àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord

    bleagh = ba + leacht (leagh) = ba + leak = baleak = (pronounced) blek (milk) - literally a liquid you can squeeze from this thing on the meadow which says ba.
    bleachdair = ba + leacht (leagh) + àire = (pronounced) blek(d)ar - literally someone who cares for getting liquid squeezed from this thing on the meadow which says ba.



    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb04.html#blàthach
    and
    Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary


    Serbian

    bleko = "mpbv"aleko = mleko (milk)
    blekar = "mpbv"lekar - mlekar (milk man)
    blekan = "mpbv"lekan - mlekan (made of milk, to milk)

    Interestingly in Serbian we call sounding of sheep "ble". This probably comes from ba + le = sound produced by sheep...

    Here we have another interesting word probably related to cattle (sheep, cows) but also women, which were in the olden days considered to be a property in the same way as cattle.

    Ban, Bana - woman, girl, female. I think it is interesting how similar this is to Ba, Bo, Ban for sheep and cow. By the way in Bosnia there is a word "bona" which means woman.

    Now in the olden days (I like this expression, i got it from Peppa pig which i watch with my son), bands of warriors used to go into cattle and women raids. The aim was to steal as much cattle or women from the enemy tribe. In Irish a group of men is called dáil. From this word we have gardáil from ga(r) (spear) + dáil (group of men) = men with spears.

    So from ba(n) cattle, women and dáil (group of men) we have bandáil which is in modern Irish used to mean assembly of women (what ever that means) but originally probably had the meaning of "gang of men going to steal cattle and women". This is probably where word Vandal (bandail) comes from. Vandali, Bandali were probably just gangs of men from Central Europe on gian cattle and women raid. In Serbian and other languages we still have the word "banda" which means exactly that (a gang):

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banda

    This is just one of the words that entered Latin from this central European "Celtic" (Serbian, western Slavic) language.

    While we are talking about cattle here are few more words which are the same in Serbian and Irish and is related to cattle:

    tuar (Irish) - dung, manure, cattle field, sheep run
    tor (Serbian) - sheep run

    gùn (Irish) - gown, Irish gúna; from the English gown, from Welsh gwn (*gwun), from Celtic *vo-ouno-

    gunj (Serbian) - gown made from wool (vuna is wool in Serbian)

    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb22.html

    I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist. I would be more amenable to your argument if you showed a better knowledge of the roots of Irish words.

    How's this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    When i was in Serbia last month i got few dictionaries that cover specific dialects of Serbian language. One of them covers Dinaric Montenegrian dialect, from the same area where they use word Katun (Gadun) for the Shepard's mountain settlement. In the dictionary they had a whole section dedicated to sheep names, given to them based on their appearance and behavior. I know i am mad. In there i found this:

    Bleka - completely white sheep
    Blekan - completely white ram

    Compare this with

    bleagh - milk (white)
    bleachdair - milk man
    bleoghainn - milking

    Also as an example of the interchangeability of the "mpbv" sound group i will expand the "bo" word group in Serbian:

    bó (Irish) - cow
    vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating.
    bo - stab (like with horns from bo, vo. This is probably how people got an idea for creating stabbing and impaling weapons in the first place)
    bosti - to stab
    ubo - stabbed
    bodež - knife
    boj, voj - battle with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
    bojnik, vojnik, bojovnik - solder, a man that has a sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
    bojna, vojna - war, a fight with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
    vojevati - to fight in war
    boii - not a tribe but the solders, men with spears?
    bojati se - to be afraid

    You can see here that b and v are practically interchangeable. This apples to Serbi and Servi in the same way. In the Irish language we don't even have v sound. We have p, b, mh and bh. This is a good illustration of the undifferentiated "mpbv" block being partially differentiated.

    Now how old are these words? How old is this language?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    To support my theory that the first names of animals with distinct sounds were onomatopoeic, i have here collected the names and sounds of all major European wild and domestic animals. The names are in Serbian and then in English. I would like to ask people here to help me and supply the matching names of animals in other European languages.

    I think that it is amazing that every one of the animal names in Serbian is onomatopoeic and very few in English are. As i explained earlier onomatopoeic names were used during the creation of the language, before there was sufficient grammar and word pool to explain the association between the name and the animal. This shows how old the Serbian animal names are. This also says a lot about the age of the Serbian language as a whole.

    Most interesting is that the common word for Eagle (Orao) is derived from the sound of the Griffon vulture which only lives in southern Europe. This puts the birth place of Serbian language in the Dinaric Alps.

    Wild animals

    lav (lion) lions used to live in Europe in distant past.

    the sound is laaaow
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_22gJ5kB31k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGnEgAVAVIk

    vuk, volk, voulk, olk, oulk

    the sound is wouuuuulk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xhOQ26QYI

    (wolf)

    the sound is wof,wolf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvHHi3GI1XU

    ris (lynx)

    the sound is rissss
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbhkXg9iFYA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8eBrv_JKuk

    urs, medved (bear). Medved is the euphemistic name for bear in Slavic languages. It is used instead of the real name for bear, as invoking the real name was considered dangerous. The real name is urs.

    the sound is urs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGG616qvxBI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz05MkWdr9k

    svinja, guda, vepar (pig, boar)

    vepar (wild boar)

    the sound is veeee
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniH3HfDo7Q

    svinja

    the sound is sviiiii
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og5rKt9VYX0

    guda (grunting, groktanje)

    the sound is goud
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5FxuwGlzo


    elk, elen, jelen (deer stag)

    the sound is eeelk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ORGksHhKw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOEj4xVKN38

    how people imitate elks

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN9Rr8uM5Q4

    kuna (marten)

    sounds like koun, kuun
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACaNzQXn4o
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2b-npfHuQ
    http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/British-wildlife-recordings/022M-W1CDR0001419-0300V0#_

    lasica (weasel)

    sounds like lasiiica
    http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/British-wildlife-recordings/022M-W1CDR0001377-1400V0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_lQ5k8eO8

    Lija, Lisica (fox)

    sounds like liaaaa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6NuhlibHsM

    jazavac pronounced iazavac (badger)

    sounds like iazavava
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrG_HdH2oY

    jež (hedgehog)

    sounds like jeezhjezh
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w1tIGzOPvo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7VtFnJe-K0

    zmija, smija (snake) the ssssss sound comes from the slithereing sound a snake makes in the undergrowth and from the hissing sound an angry snake makes to scare the enemy off

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imR80hOKAJo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0b_G_CrI

    žaba pronounced zhaba (frog)

    sounds like zhabababab
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gn3wFrLxqw

    foka - seal

    sounds like (f)oook
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-LIqdjqHts

    vidra (otter)

    sounds like viiii
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUJDmAXsEvs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zZxaKuKT0

    dabar (beaver) the name comes from the sound of wood chewing or maybe from the angry sound

    chewing sounds like dabdabdab
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfTubrLqXCE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV8ptd_XU7U

    angry beaver sounds like daaaab
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXpSdyFgwvc

    veverica (Red squirrel)

    sounds like veverver
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azw7BueVQ0c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hNASBFDJY

    domestic animals


    bo,vo (cow)

    the sound is mpbvooou
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM

    ba, barav (sheep)

    the sound is baaa
    http://www.sheep.com/sounds/baasheep1.wav

    koza (goat)

    the sound is gooo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR1o8o5KMw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU2n8HhOFi0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp0Bt2cbcc8

    konj, konjic, (which makes njiii sound, horse)


    the sound is niiiii
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6l5767Iek

    mazga (mule)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD90xkKUHYE

    magarac

    the sound is magaaaa

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWS4Eu8E2z4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wDFGU20P9k


    kokoska (chicken)

    the sound is koko
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU

    kokot, oroz, pevac (cockerel)

    the sound is kokoreku or ooroso
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFhUzAwDEz4


    patka (duck)

    the sound is pa(k)pa(k) or k(mpbv)a(k)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbbCPQqV2k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=487jIOnY-yE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCY8jp2tZ1c

    guska, gaska (guse)

    the sound is guu, gua
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_28ZtSu1iZM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtFHPnW5MM

    ku(ce), ker, pas (dog)

    the sound is ouuuu, kouuuu, ku
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF1lwZ24RYI


    the sound is kerrrrr
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-ewncOomk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuHtyDbyEaA

    macka (cat)

    the sound is maaaaou
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52U05Ai5tE


    wild birds


    orao (eagle)

    Griffon vulture, Gyps fulvus, Eurasian griffon. Grifon was one of the symbols of the Serbs

    sound is closest to orr, aorr, oarr
    http://www.hark.com/clips/tzxdcchmvd-griffon-vulture-gyps-fulvus-eurasian-griffon-gyps-fulvus-gyps-fulvus-animal-sound-bird-gyps-fulvus-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktZ11CGKloA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBErXCxqUEA

    golden eagle

    the sound is very close to igal or ior
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6aZtJ7WPA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMT5ZL-0yeA

    soko (Peregrine Falcon)

    sounds like sokosokosoko
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P18xYHPGtRo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNO6acbF7n0


    gavran, gabran (raven)

    sounds like gaaa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZBfahJmqAQ


    Čavka (Jackdaw)

    sounds like chaa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kihVoeSIE7U

    vrana (Crow)

    sounds like vraa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP3pzQnWyb0

    kukavica (cucoo)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKdAr1pLAY


    Ćuk pronounced tjuk (Scops Owl)

    sounds like tjuk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3D2jq1HoQ

    gugutka (Eurasian Collared Dove)

    sounds like gugugu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xACNJcURd5I

    golub (wood pidgeon)

    sounds like gogolub
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n84sZIN4lv8


    galeb (gull)

    sounds like gaaal
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qRJoMj92hw


    jejina (long eared owl)


    sounds like yeye
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWpnonRXLfM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM7WPdpiwPc

    buljina (Eurasian Eagle-owls)

    sounds like bu-uu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gnzzMjbOpw

    svraka (magpie)

    sounds like svrakakaka
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtORth2BIY


    tetreb (capercaillie)

    sounds like tetr
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exKHNaZuT64
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jipvjcP3oxE

    štiglic, (Eurasian Siskin)

    sounds like shtiii
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeQjBuBaIm8


    Češljugar (goldfinch)

    sounds like cheshcheshljuu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfjgjA_p3vQ

    vrabac, dzivdzan (sparow)

    sounds like dzivdziv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PYZeVT_M5E
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HHlFKalN0Q

    senica (great tit)

    sounds like senitc sesenitc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGy5ZQdq28


    roda (stork)

    sounds like rodarodarodada
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHWri3VHIVI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPM3rNfZNI

    prepelica (quail)

    sounds like prepreprep
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_GmaKN2Ik

    jarebica pronounced iarebitsa (partridge)

    sounds like iariariarebieareb
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fe4l0G5KYY

    liska (coot)

    sounds like liiis liiis
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZFztVX5DQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8_yEtUbTrY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oEy_vPez7o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqPAref2aJk

    čaplja pronounced chaplja (Grey Heron)

    sounds like chap chap
    http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/British-wildlife-recordings/022M-W1CDR0001431-1200V0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ay3By1RHUM


    lastavica (swallow)

    sounds like vicviclalalalaaastavicvicvic
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgcipZq5oMQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPri_hTK-rM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUjgirdanV4



    insects


    zrikavac (cricket)

    sounds like zrizri
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZo4ZdKbqwg


    cvrcak (cicada)

    sounds like cvrrrrrr
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bnd6Ty68FU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqys8lKsu4s

    muva (fly)

    muva (house fly)

    sounds like movazzz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuKTheCcsE


    zunzara (bluebottle), obad (gadfly, horsefly) any big loud fly


    sounds like zuzzzzz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQiVnxepan4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUd6cqh5Zk


    pčela pronounced pchela but probably comes from (mpbv)(sz)ela like in polish pszczoła (beee)

    sounds like mpbvsze
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtK9_EKDg1E

    osa (wasp)

    sounds like ossssssssss
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0f8vqlmxmY


    bumbar (bumblebee)

    sounds like bummmm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMaOdIR9nA


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,583 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi dublinviking,

    One slight fly in the ointment is this,

    The Irish "Gaelic" language has been changed so much in the last 100 years that an Irishman from the 18th century probably wouldn't understand most of it.

    The closest to proper old Irish would be Scots Gaelic.

    Quote from Wikipedia:-

    "
    Around the time of World War II, Séamas Daltún, in charge of Rannóg an Aistriúcháin (the official translations department of the Irish government), issued his own guidelines about how to standardise Irish spelling and grammar. This de facto standard was subsequently approved by the State and called the Official Standard or Caighdeán Oifigiúil. It simplified and standardised the orthography. Many words had silent letters removed and vowel combination brought closer to the spoken language. Where multiple versions existed in different dialects for the same word, one or more were selected.
    Examples:
    This altered the Irish language to a massive extent. A look at the old street signs shows this. Above the modern street signs around in Dublin are still a few of the old cast iron signs and the Irish used in them are very different.


    Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Another interesting things about Serbian animal names is that the only two animal names that don't match the main animal sound on the first syllable are the name for horse and the name for swallow. The horse doeas however make two main sounds of which one sounds like ko or go and the other like njiii, and it is possible that the name is the combination of the two sounds. The swallow name "lastavica" does not match the sound on the first syllable. This is actually to be expected as i used the sound of the barn swallow. Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds. When my father went to his parents village last year, the old people complained to him that there are fewer and fewer swallows every year. This is because the vilage is dying, there are only old people left in it and there are fewer and fewer cows and working cow sheds and barns in which swallows can nest. Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows. So these barn swallows only arrived with cows and cow sheds, which is well in the time of fully developed language. However before there were any cows in cow sheds, there was another type of swallow that lived around people in the Balkans: the bank swallow or sand martin. And you wont be able to guess what sound does it make. It is "laslastatatalastatata" which corresponds perfectly with the name "lasta" which is one of the swallow names in Serbian. The mame for barn swallow "lastavica" which looks similar to bank swallow but has a song that goes like "vichvichlastavichvich" basically means "swallow that says vich" or "lastavica"


    http://www.hark.com/clips/rnxrmggdbd-swallow-sand-martin-bank-swallow-orn-brown-throated-sand-martin-riparia-paludicola-bird-sound-of-an-animal
    http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Bank_Swallow/sounds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5hSUIgpkUY

    If we accept that giving onomatopoeic names is the oldest way of naming then these Serbian animal names are probably the oldest European words. And they have all been preserved in Serbian but not in other European languages. How do we explain this?

    I will finish this discussion on animal names with an Irish word for the end "críoch" and Serbian word for the end "kraj". :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    killdare man thanks for your input.
    One slight fly in the ointment is this,

    The Irish "Gaelic" language has been changed so much in the last 100 years that an Irishman from the 18th century probably wouldn't understand most of it.

    The closest to proper old Irish would be Scots Gaelic.

    This is what I wrote in this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84803318&postcount=42
    I try to consult as many sources relating to both Irish and Scottish Gaelic. I do that because some old (Celtic Serbian Irish) words were preserved better in Scotland than in Ireland. In Ireland they were sometimes gaelicised almost beyond recognition.

    I am perfectly aware that the language has changed and not once. But I also think that there were many (at least three) languages spoken in Ireland in the past, and that what we call Gaelic today is a mixed, bastard language like English. One of these languages came from Atlantic facade (Afro Asiatic akin to proto Berber), and the other two or maybe even three from central Europe and south Baltic (skito kelto ilirian) which has root in vinca language.

    This is what i got from someone on another thread. It illustrates perfectly what i am talking abut here:
    I think you do have something there. 'Tuathal' means both 'tyrant' (note the O'Tooles of Wicklow? And Tuathal Techtmhar?) and 'left, wrong, sinister'. These meanings are polar opposites. Quite strange. The northern and southern halves of Ireland were clearly known and named in ancient times: they were Leath Mogha (= Mugh's Half, in the south) and Leath Conn (Conn's Half, in the north).

    There is considerable evidence that Irish as we know it was not one homogenous language in ancient times and that it is a composite of many. For instance, there existed in ancient ireland the phenomenon of 'iarnbélre' (= iron language), that is, langauge, words or phrases which were then acknowledged to have been difficult to understand or obscure in some other sense. T.F. O'Rahilly posited that this might be the language of the Érainn of the south-west.

    There are duplicate words in Irish for the same thing. One wonders if these have their origin in different tongues brought into this country by invaders. Examples that come to mind immediately are:

    Language/speech = teanga or caint or urlabhra or labhairt;
    Horse = each or capall or marc;
    Woman = bean or cail but women = mná;
    Maiden = ainnir or bruinneall;
    Boy, youth = buachaill or gasúr or ógánach;
    Man = duine or fear;
    Spear = sleá or ga;
    Sea = farraige or muir or sáile;
    Hill/mountain = Brí or sliabh or beann;
    Death = bás or éag or marbh;
    Ship = long or bád or barc;


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Can you link to the other thread?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    http://historum.com/european-history/56897-old-europe-vinca-language-culture-early-layers-serbian-irish-culture.html

    I post exactly the same posts here and there. I also try to copy all the discussions between the threads as well when appropriate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso




  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    hi Ipso

    the first link is to the copy of this thread on Eupedia. I am trying to get as many people interested.

    The other is an old thread i participated in many years ago. Not bad. I have expanded few things you can find there since.

    I don't understand what promoting means in this case, and which country we are talking about, since this is as much about Ireland and the Irish as it is About Serbians and Serbia.

    But you are missing the point. This is about finding the truth and doing some real investigative historical work and not just quoting others...

    Sarcasm is a sign of defeat.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Few more interesting thing i found in my notes about link between sheep, cattle and women:

    In Irish word for daughter is "ní". So Ana ní Cormack means Ana daughter of Cormack. But "ní" also means thing. This basically equates a daughter with a thing, to a property. So Ana ní Cormack becomes Ana property of Cormack. We find this exact thing in the Dinaric area of the Balkans where even today daughters are not considered to be children. You would hear people say: "I have two children and one daughter". This is patriarchal Iron Age society at its peak. So from here it is easy to understand why we have ban, bana, bean = woman, girl and possible ba(n) sheep and banair sheep fold.

    Here is the remnant of this patriarchal society from the Balkans. Does anyone know of any similar customs from Gaelic lands?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sworn_virgin
    The term sworn virgin has come to refer to a traditional social role in the highlands of Albania and Montenegro. Among the highlander groups, a similar, cross-cultural clan-based orientation and highly marked sexual roles have created a situation where there has been a shortage of adult males. One suitable alternative is the sworn virgin (Serbian tobelija or tybelí, ostajnica "she who stays" or muskobanja "man-like woman"; Albanian virgjineshtë / burrneshë), a female-born person who takes on the social (but not sexual) role of a man. They dress, work and live as men, but remain chaste and unmarried.
    The origins of the "sworn virgins" are disparate: some choose this role (as early as childhood and as late as just before their marriage ceremony) while others are raised or forced into it by circumstance. These societies have suffered a severe shortage of men due to interclan violence and Ottoman oppression; a clan without a patriarch might choose a female as an ostajnica, or female replacement, who would subsequently take on a male social role.


    And here they call it Albanian sworn virgin even though it is an old Balkan custom, which admittedly survived mostly among the northern Albanians which are all Albanized old Dinaric population with the same genes, and which actually keeps clan links with the old Montenegrian clans from which they originally separated during Turkish occupation of the Balkans:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins
    The tradition of sworn virgins developed out of the Kanuni i Lekë Dukagjinit (English: The Code of Lekë Dukagjini, or simply the Kanun),[5] a set of codes and laws developed by Lekë Dukagjini and used mostly in northern Albania and Kosovo from the 15th century until the 20th century. The Kanun is not a religious document – many groups follow it including Roman Catholic, Albanian Orthodox, and Muslims.[6]
    The Kanun dictates that families must be patrilineal (meaning wealth is inherited through a family's men) and patrilocal (upon marriage, a woman moves into the household of her husband's family).[7] Women are treated like property of the family. Under the Kanun women are stripped of many human rights. They cannot smoke, wear a watch, or vote in their local elections. They cannot buy land, and there are many jobs they are not permitted to hold. There are even establishments that they cannot enter.[4][6]

    This code has just canonized the old tribal laws that existed in the Dinaric region of the Balkans from time immemorial.

    From the above it is also easy to understand the link between bàn = white, bana, bean = woman, girl, and and banais = wedding. Wedding is a ceremony of acquiring a woman as a property. There is a direct link in Irish tradition between sheep, shepard, woman and wedding:

    banais - marriage-feast, wedding. Banais refers to the wedding party or dinner while pòsadh is the Gaelic for marriage and usually refers to what happens in the church or the registry office.
    ban, bana - woman. In Bosnia there is a word "bona" which is a old word for woman...
    bean na bainnse - bride


    This is the link between wedding as a ceremony of acquiring property. I describes a ceremony in which the shepard kings marries the land and in that way becomes its owner or ruler:
    banais ríghe

    [Irish, wedding-feast of kingship]

    A ritual practiced by early Irish kings in which they were united with the sovereignty of the territory over which they ruled. The abundant evidence of the annals testifies that the practice was widespread, although details are not always precise. The ceremony appears to have comprised two main elements, the libation offered by the bride to her husband and the coition. At Tara the ritual was called feis temrach.

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/banais-r-ghe#ixzz2UE93sCKc
    The personification of the power and authority of a kingdom as a woman to be won sexually pre-dates literature written in any Celtic language. In the hierogamy [Gk hieros, sacred; gamos, marriage] described in a Sumerian hymn (2nd millennium BC), the king must mate with Inanna, queen of heaven and goddess of love and fertility, on New Year's Day in her residence. In the hymn the king is seen as an incarnation of Dumuzi, a shepherd-king and husband of Inanna, and thus the rite of hierogamy ends with his ecstatic sexual union with her, perhaps acted out in life with one of Inanna's sacred prostitutes. Correlatives and echoes to a kind of spiritual and/or physical sexual union between the male king and a divine female sovereignty are widespread in early Indo-European culture, as far away as India in the instances of Vishnu and Sri-Lakshmi. Within Celtic traditions, evidence of sexual-sovereignty rituals, involving horses, survives to late pre-Norman Ireland, as the shocked and disgusted observations of Giraldus Cambrensis in Topographia Hibernica (1188) testify. Early Irish texts describe the ritual banais ríghe [wedding-feast of kingship], which included (1) a libation from the sovereignty bride and (2) the coition of the king with sovereignty herself. At Tara for the installation of the ard rí [high king], the ceremony was known as feis temrach [Irish foaid, spends the night with] and fled bainisi.

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/lady-sovereignty#ixzz2UEAokUub

    Finally "ní" also means not, nothing. This equates "ní" with "not a son". So Ana ní Cormack becomes Ana property of Cormack, not the son of Cormack. In Serbian we have the same suffix for creating negation:

    šta - what, something
    ništa - nothing

    e - accented è, he, it, Irish é, *ei-s: root ei, i; Old Latin eis (= is, he, that), ea, she (= eja); Gothic is, German er, es; Sanskrit ayam. The Old Irish neuter was ed, now eadh (as in seadh, ni h-eadh).

    Basically it means what exists.

    je, e - is, exists
    nije, nie - doesn't exist

    The last example shows that the word for "is" is the same in Irish and Serbian and that construction of "is not" is the same.

    Next few words make this even more interesting:


    Irish:
    c' - for co, cia, who, what
    cà, ca - where, Irish cá, how, where, who; a by-form to cia, cè
    cho, co - as, so, Irish comh, Welsh cyn; from com, with. See comh-. Gaelic "Cho dubh ri feannaig" = Welsh "Cyn ddued a'r frân".

    Serbian:

    "k", from "ko" which means who, or "ka" which means where, where to, towards
    Ko, Ka, ku(or in old southern Serbian dialects ka) which mean who, where, how. Examples: ko (ko je to?) - who is it, k (k tebi) - towards you, ka (ka tebi) towards you, ka (ka, kaj, sta) - what, ka(ko) (kako to) - how, how is that possible or done, ku(da) or ka(de) (ku da idemo) - where are we going.

    Dakle ca + e = Ka + e = kaj je = sta to, sta je - what is it

    ka de e = kade je, kude je, gde je - where is

    I find this Serbian word very interesting: kak, kako = ka + k, ka + ko = ca + c(o) = how, where + who, what = how is something done or by whom

    Considering that the words for where, who, what, existence are the same in Irish and Serbian, the next few words should not be a surprise:

    bith - the world, existence, Irish, Old Irish bith, Welsh byd, Breton bed, Gaulish bitu-, *bitu-s; root bi, bei, live, Indo-European @gei, @gi, whence Latin vivo, English be, etc. Hence beatha, beò, biadh, q.v.
    bith - being (inf. of bì, be), Irish, Early Irish beith, Old Irish buith.

    bi, bì - be Irish bí, be thou, Old Irish bíu, sum, bí be thou, Old Welsh bit, sit, bwyf, sim, Middle Breton bezaff. Proto-Celtic bhv-ijô, for Old Irish bíu, I am; Latin fio; English be; Indo-European root bheu, be. See bha. Stokes differs from other authorities in referring bíu, bí to Celtic beiô, root bei, bi, live, as in bith, beatha, Latin vivo, etc.

    So bit is the world, reality, existence which comes from bi, bei which means alive, what exists. Examples in Serbian:

    Sta bi? Sta je bilo? - What happened? What existed?
    Gde bi? Gde je bilo? Where happened? Where existed?
    Ti - you
    Biti - bi ti - you exist
    u biti - in existance, reality
    sa - with
    bitisati - bi ti sa ti - to be with you, to be together.

    one last thing:

    Irish: tá sé (pronounced to she) - it is
    Serbian: to je (pronounced to ye) or to e - it is


    So all the above words: be, is, where, what, who, how, not are all the same in Irish and Serbian (and other Slavic languages) again, but not all the same in Other European languages (some are and some are not). If you look at the distribution of the above words in Europe you can see why I think that Central Europe (Balkan, Baltic) is the European language birth place. I believe that the above words came to England and Ireland from Central Europe with various Central European (Vinca, Celtic, Anglo Saxon, Viking) invasions via south Baltic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    hi Ipso

    the first link is to the copy of this thread on Eupedia. I am trying to get as many people interested.

    The other is an old thread i participated in many years ago. Not bad. I have expanded few things you can find there since.

    I don't understand what promoting means in this case, and which country we are talking about, since this is as much about Ireland and the Irish as it is About Serbians and Serbia.

    But you are missing the point. This is about finding the truth and doing some real investigative historical work and not just quoting others...

    Sarcasm is a sign of defeat.

    The title of the thread is about a link to an old culture called Vinca but you have linked god knows how many cultures and groups to Serbia where it seems that everyone in Europe is Serbian.
    For someone who doesn't like quoting others you quote a lot of others from wikipedia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    The title of the thread is about a link to an old culture called Vinca but you have linked god knows how many cultures and groups to Serbia where it seems that everyone in Europe is Serbian.

    All the cultures i have linked together are linked through each other:

    lepenski vir -- >
    vinca + starcevo -->
    sumer, hittite (developed from vinca as proven by the spread of artifacts, culture and writing) -->
    central european bronze age cultures developed from balkan bronze culture -->
    Celtic, Ilirian, Gaulic, Slavic, Germanic culture from balkan iron culture -->
    ...all the way to Serbian and Irish who preserved the most of this cultural material, but also everyone else in Europe.

    I really don't know what to tell you. I am not promoting any nationalism, and i am not putting anyone down. If you think that any of the links that i have presented is week please please let me know why and where have i made a mistake. This is why i am posting these things. Just spitting on it on the basis of it being impossible is ridiculous. Sorry.
    For someone who doesn't like quoting others you quote a lot of others from wikipedia.

    I am reusing investigation results of others. I am not the first person who looked at these things (apart from Irish Serbian connection) and there is no point reinventing the wheel. You are missing the point. The problem that i have with people quoting authorities is when they do it like they are quoting the bible: its the law an no one should question it. I have quoted lots of data and some opinions. I am inviting everyone to question everything i wrote here. It is called a discussion.

    But discussion requires knowledge and arguments. When you don't have them you close the thread like they did on Eupedia today with this explanation:
    ...What I found particularly amusing is your insistence that the Irish word "tuath" was borrowed...

    Originally Posted by dublin:

    "All i am saying is that Tuatha is a foreign word, not Gaelic and has negative characteristics associated with invading foreign non Gaelic force."

    ... which every linguist will tell you that it's not. My conclusion is that you are unable to distinguish wether a word is borrowed or not because you do not understand how the methods to determine that work, and, to be honest, seem to want to. You just have your Ireland-Serbia idea and it keep repeating it.

    So guys, you are flying the flag for free speech and free science. thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,583 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    There is another problem when we use the bloodlines,
    The current theories regarding population migration (based on DNA if I remember correctly, but I could be wrong) is from East Africa through Egypt, up through Eastern Turkey, then north and into north western Russia into the Nordic countries, down through Norway to Scotland then into Ireland.

    The other theory I remember is out of north western Africa, up through Morocco, Spain, France then England and over into Ireland.
    Neither involve the Balkans to any significant degree. It is also well known that the Romans used mercenaries from central Europe while they attempted to take the English and the Ancient Kingdom of Alba. So there could have been a lot of words intigrated due to transference by an occupying force.

    If the Gaelic language had developed from ancient Serbian, then there would be fewer barriers between Old Gaelic and the language spoken by Alexander the great.(from next door in Macedonia)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    All the cultures i have linked together are linked through each other:

    lepenski vir -- >
    vinca + starcevo -->
    sumer, hittite (developed from vinca as proven by the spread of artifacts, culture and writing) -->
    central european bronze age cultures developed from balkan bronze culture -->
    Celtic, Ilirian, Gaulic, Slavic, Germanic culture from balkan iron culture -->
    ...all the way to Serbian and Irish who preserved the most of this cultural material, but also everyone else in Europe.

    I really don't know what to tell you. I am not promoting any nationalism, and i am not putting anyone down. If you think that any of the links that i have presented is week please please let me know why and where have i made a mistake. This is why i am posting these things. Just spitting on it on the basis of it being impossible is ridiculous. Sorry.



    I am reusing investigation results of others. I am not the first person who looked at these things (apart from Irish Serbian connection) and there is no point reinventing the wheel. You are missing the point. The problem that i have with people quoting authorities is when they do it like they are quoting the bible: its the law an no one should question it. I have quoted lots of data and some opinions. I am inviting everyone to question everything i wrote here. It is called a discussion.

    But discussion requires knowledge and arguments. When you don't have them you close the thread like they did on Eupedia today with this explanation:



    So guys, you are flying the flag for free speech and free science. thanks.


    You aren't just talking about an Irish Serbian connection but a pan European Serbian connection. It's not that strange that Indo European languages have similarities.
    You are also trying to give Troy a Serbian origin.
    Some of the DNA stuff you brought up was severly out of date. HG2 is haplogroup I whose tree looks like this.
    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

    I is ancient and most likely originated in what is now the Balkans about 20,000 years ago pre-dating even the Vincans. It has many branches in many places.
    http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    There is another problem when we use the bloodlines,
    The current theories regarding population migration (based on DNA if I remember correctly, but I could be wrong) is from East Africa through Egypt, up through Eastern Turkey, then north and into north western Russia into the Nordic countries, down through Norway to Scotland then into Ireland.

    The other theory I remember is out of north western Africa, up through Morocco, Spain, France then England and over into Ireland.
    Neither involve the Balkans to any significant degree. It is also well known that the Romans used mercenaries from central Europe while they attempted to take the English and the Ancient Kingdom of Alba. So there could have been a lot of words intigrated due to transference by an occupying force.

    If the Gaelic language had developed from ancient Serbian, then there would be fewer barriers between Old Gaelic and the language spoken by Alexander the great.(from next door in Macedonia)

    The current thinking on DNA is initial movement after the ice age from Southern Europe and Britain with some continental movement in the Bronze Age and Iron Age mostly from Britain and North West France.
    The big male lineage R1b (which was covered in the tv show Blood of the Irish which got superceded about 9 months after the show) most likely entered Europe from the near east via the Balkans and came to Ireland via Britain and France. It may gave been only a small movement of people that grew to large numbers due to the way the gaelic chieftain order was set up. Irish people are genetically closest to the British and from what I've read on other forums the language that gaelic is derived from is celt-iberian (as the p celeic shift in Britain most likely came from Gaul).

    Here are two good forums if you're interested in genetics.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?121-R1b-L21

    http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Ipso

    Again you are missing the point or you are not actually reading what i am writing here. Let me try to explain it again:
    You aren't just talking about an Irish Serbian connection but a pan European Serbian connection. It's not that strange that Indo European languages have similarities. You are also trying to give Troy a Serbian origin. Some of the DNA stuff you brought up was severely out of date. HG2 is haplogroup I whose tree looks like this.
    I is ancient and most likely originated in what is now the Balkans about 20,000 years ago pre-dating even the Vincans. It has many branches in many places.


    I started with noticing similarities between Serbian and Irish languages. Nothing strange there as you say yourself, we are all more or less Indo Europeans. But when you look at other stuff, not just language, like genetics, culture, beliefs, toponimes, hidronimes, religion you start noticing, and many did, that this big indo european family has distinct cultural branches. So we get Balto - Slavic, Italic, Germanic, Atlantean, Greek, Celtic.....Now based on the official historical science, Irish and Serbian belong to completely unrelated cultural branches which have last common root in the most distant indo european past. But the similarities between the language and culture are such that in some cases there is deeper connection between the Irish and the Serbian language and culture than between Serbian and Russian or Polish language and culture for instance. I hope you can see what i mean from what i wrote here so far.

    This is not supposed to be possible, but it is. How is this possible? This is the question that i want to answer. All the ancient toponimes and hidronims in the Balkans which have root in Irish language and the Irish root words and even grammar in Serbian language point to Irish (or proto Irish) language presence in the Balkans in a very distant past. How distant? I believe that we are talking about Mesolithic times and onward. Why do i think the the connection goes so far back? Because i can find Mesolithic cultural traits that originate in the Balkans, and are very specific to a small region in the Balkans, and which have disappeared from the Balkans after Mesolithic, i find them in Ireland and in the Atlantic facade in medieval time. How do i know that the Irish was present in the Balkans and Central Europe later on? Because a lot of later times gods of the Balkans, a lot of later times toponimes, town names have only root in Irish. How do i know that the Irish, or some direct ancestors of the Irish, are still present in the Balkans? Because of the still living Irish language traits in southern Slavic languages and particularly Serbian which exist even today.

    How do i know that Serbs, or some direct ancestors of Serbs, were present in the Balkans in the earliest times? Because some of the cultural traits from vincan time for instance are still present in Serbian culture today but not in any other culture in Europe? Some of the earliest European gods have names which only have meaning in Serbian (South Slavic) languages (and Irish) and no other language in Europe. Some of the customs recorded on hittite tablets are still alive in Eastern Serbia. There are a lot of words in Homeric Greek, classic Greek and Latin which only have root in Serbian (South Slavic) (and Irish) language. How is this all possible without someone speaking some form of Serbian in southern and central Europe in the earliest time? How did only Serbians preserve these ancient customs if not by passing them from father to son through all these millennia. What i am saying is that you can not lump everything as Indo European and say: this was Indo European wide custom or word but everyone except Serbians (and Irish) decided to forget it and replace it with something else. It doesn't make sense.

    As well as all the Irish cultural and language traits that we find in the Balkans, there are all the Serbian and sometimes Slavic-wide linguistic and cultural traits that we find in the Irish language and culture. They point to the fact that the cultural exchange went both ways. When and where could have all these Serbian, and in some cases Slavic-wide, cultural traits enter the Irish language and culture? This is also what i am trying to discover. Based on available data i believe that the contact and cultural exchange did start in the Balkans, but that it then continued in Central Europe during "Celtic" times and later in Ireland during iron age and medieval time. This late contact had to happen because some of the cultural traits, archaeological finds and even place names in Ireland have north Slavic roots and can not be attributed to the early Balkan connection .

    So i am not linking Serbians to everyone, I am linking Serbians and the Irish to the Balkan - Baltic region of central Europe, and I am saying that there is a population, cultural and linguistic continuity in that region from Mesolithic times to present day. It is not my fault that the same Balkan - Baltic region of central Europe just happens to be the birth place of European race and culture, and that people who today call themselves Serbian Croatian Bosnian (I2) still live there and still have the same cultural and linguistic characteristics that they had maybe even 10000 years ago (If we count Lepenski vir culture). But this preservation of culture and language over long periods is well attested and usually happens in isolated, tribal mountain communities. Barbers in Atlas mountains preserved the most primitive Afro Asiatic language and cultural traits. Serbs (South Slavs) preserved the most primitive European (pre and post Indo) traits in Dinaric mountains of the Balkans.

    As for Troy, there are more and more indications that it was in Balkan - Baltic region of central Europe, and that is closely linked to the Early Balkan iron age. I actually think that it's old names both come from Irish.

    Troy (Ancient Greek: Ἴλιον, Ilion, or Ἴλιος, Ilios; and Τροία, Troia; Latin: Trōia and Īlium;[1] Hittite: Wilusa or Truwisa;[2][3] Turkish: Truva)

    I already wrote about name Troia:
    tré- triad - trojstvo
    tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
    tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
    tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
    tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
    treabhcas - tribe - pleme
    treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
    treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
    treabh - plough - plug
    treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
    trea- spear - koplje
    trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is awarrior.
    treas- battle - bitka
    treasair - conquer - osvojiti
    treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
    triath - lord, prince - gospodar, princ

    This is an incredibly important cluster. I have never seen any other word group that describes iron age society in a better way. And it shows us that Trean or Trojan means warrior. So Is Trea Treas, or Troja, Troas the land of warriors? And if so was the original Troja in the Balkans in the second millennium BC and that Troas in Anatolia is the second Troja ? I think that there are things that point to exactly that.

    The other name, Ilios, Ilion probably also comes from Irish:

    lios - ring,ring fort,halo,fairy round
    il - many, varied
    il + lios(san) = many ring forts, the land of ring forts

    Was Troy or Ilios, Iliosan, Ilion the land of warriors who live in ring forts? Both names have etymology in Irish which perfectly matches what we know about troy, but no etymology in any other language. So what do we make of this? I don't know but i think it is important to point at it and hope that it will be useful to someone researching Troy.


    And of course the last link between the Irish, Serbians and the oldest European cultures from Balkan - Baltic region of central Europe is I2 gene. I know what you are saying about Hg2. I am not a genetics expert and i really did not know what Hg2 was. But i know what I2 is very well. The reason i posted the link to that article was because it showed that there was a genetic as well as cultural link between Balkan, Ireland and Georgia and that the genetic root was in the Balkans. Nothing has changed in that respect since the article was published.
    The big male lineage R1b (which was covered in the tv show Blood of the Irish which got superceded about 9 months after the show) most likely entered Europe from the near east via the Balkans and came to Ireland via Britain and France. It may gave been only a small movement of people that grew to large numbers due to the way the gaelic chieftain order was set up. Irish people are genetically closest to the British and from what I've read on other forums the language that gaelic is derived from is celt-iberian (as the p celeic shift in Britain most likely came from Gaul).

    This is very important. I also believe that I2, which was the carrier of all the cultural and linguistic traits which i am trying to isolate, was pretty much squeezed out of Ireland by R1b probably during the Iron age and early medieval time. There could have been a lot more I2 in ireland even 500 years ago, but Cromwell, and famine and emigration have messed up the irish genetic makeup so much that we just can't say. About R1b, I believe, and many others believe that too, that the R1b entered Europe via Mediteranean sea and Iberia. This corresponds much better with the current genetic spread of this gene group and also the Gaelic type language and cultural spread as well. They are all concentrated on the Atlantic facade. From there R1b spread further into Europe with the Romans and later Franks.

    But this is just my opinion and i am trying to support it with as many documented arguments as possible.

    I hope that this makes my intention a bit clearer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Hi Guys, hope you are all well. Here is the next installment of the Vinca story

    When we look at genealogies of Irish clans we notice something funny. Every family has in its ancestral line every major character from every tribe that has set foot in Ireland. Here is an example of what I am talking about, a genealogy of Whelan, Phelan, Felan clan:

    http://www.araltas.com/features/whelan/

    In it you will see that this clan counts as its ancestors Firbolgians, Milesians and Fomorians...As well as everyone else from Adam onward.

    If we know that the genealogies were written in the medieval time, after the Gaels conquered almost all of Ireland, then we can see these genealogies for what they are: a new myths designed to justify the Gaelic power in Ireland. They were written in such a way as to insure that everyone knows that we, Gaelic people, deserve to rule Ireland because we have been here since Ireland emerged from the sea. And not only that, but because we Gaels descend directly from biblical patriarch, this gives us divine right to rule in the name of Christian god. Everyone else who came to Ireland was a barbarian that we successfully repelled or absorbed.

    If we look at European hy(story) we see a very similar story. Originally it said that European civilization started in Greece. Then Rome took over the banner of culture. In the end the western European countries that emerged from the collapse of Rome continued to fly the flag of European culture to this day. If it wasn't for the Greeks and Romans and other Mediterranean people, the barbarians from the European mainland would still be living in mud huts. Then la tene was discovered. The barbarians were not so barbaric after all. So the European hi(story) was rewritten and the Celts were introduces as the "Original western European culture". The central, eastern and southern Europe was, as far as European hi(story) was concerned, was still a land of barbarians. These barbarians never contributed anything to European culture. As a matter of fact these barbarians were always just a threat to European culture and eventually they destroyed the great golden age Europe.

    This myth was created for the exactly the same reason the Irish myths were created: To justify religious, cultural, economic and military hegemony of the western European countries in Europe and the world. The 20th century intensified this myth making, because now we had to prove that us, capitalist, democratic, western Europeans are better then the barbaric, communist, undemocratic central and eastern Europeans. We are better then them because we, the western Europeans, descend directly from the great civilizations of Greeks, Romans and Celts and they, the eastern Europeans, descend from barbarians who have nothing to show for themselves. Of course there were some historians in the West and East who, based on archaeological discoveries, questioned this hi(storical) dogma, but they were simply and easily dismissed or ignored or sidelined.

    But the last 30 years have seen incredible discoveries being made in the barbaric central and astern Europe, which are now exposing the official European hi(story) to be just a new set of myths created to justify and explain current political situation. These discoveries have shown that central and eastern Europe are actually cradle of European and not just European civilization. And now, this is putting hi(storians) in a very awkward situation. They have to admit that what they have been teaching their students about old Europe for so many years is not a truth but a myth. And that the truth is very different.

    Here is and article that shows where the European historiography is at the moment. When translated from double talk it says: There used to be a great civilization in Central Europe before there was any in the Mediterranean. We don't know who these people were, or where they went, but what we know doesn't fit into any of our hi(stories) so we will have to rewrite them.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01arch.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1369823581-LrzjtexT+I4BT9ZQO+DskQ&



    Interestingly enough in the article there is not one mention of Vinca or Lepenski vir or any other culture that existed in Serbia. Even when they talk about copper they don't mention the name of the place where it was invented. Not a word. One could start to get paranoid that they are doing it deliberately and that they are trying to create a new European hi(story) with no mention of Vinca or Lepenski vir cultures. This is what they say about copper:

    Copper, not gold, may have been the main source of Old Europe’s economic success, Dr. Anthony said. As copper smelting developed about 5400 B.C., the Old Europe cultures tapped abundant ores in Bulgaria and what is now Serbia and learned the high-heat technique of extracting pure metallic copper.

    Smelted copper, cast as axes, hammered into knife blades and coiled in bracelets, became valuable exports. Old Europe copper pieces have been found in graves along the Volga River, 1,200 miles east of Bulgaria. Archaeologists have recovered more than five tons of pieces from Old Europe sites.

    Please note that the above is the proof of the existence of the ancient Baltic - Volga - Caspian trading route.

    They call this culture "Old Europe culture", "Danubian culture". These are all true description of this culture, but then you come to this:
    The little-known culture is being rescued from obscurity in an exhibition, “The Lost World of Old Europe: the Danube Valley, 5000-3500 B.C.,” which opened last month at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University. More than 250 artifacts from museums in Bulgaria, Moldova and Romania (my insert: no mention of Serbia) are on display for the first time in the United States. The show will run through April 25.

    This is again a spin machine in action. This culture is long lost. No traces are left of it in today inhabitants of central and Eastern Europe, because, as we all know the central and eastern Europeans are barbarians and they could not have anything to do with any great European civilization. Any attempt by any central and east European historian to claim cultural and ethnic continuity in in central and east Europe is labeled nationalistic madness.

    So how come this incredible civilization stayed unnoticed and unrecorded until now. Well it didn't. We just ignored every mention of it in ancient Greek and Roman histories as myth, because it didn't suit our myths which we called histories. The Greeks knew about this civilization. They called it Gaea or Terra and placed it somewhere in the north. They called the people of Gaea or Terra Titans because they were all powerful and all knowing. And they told stories about the golden age that once existed in the land up north and which ended when titans disclosed their secrets to men.

    In Hesiod's version, the Golden Age ended when the Titan Prometheus conferred on mankind the gift of fire and all the other arts. For this, Zeus punished Prometheus by chaining him to a rock in the Caucasus, where an eagle eternally ate at his liver. The gods sent the beautiful maiden Pandora to Prometheus's brother Epimetheus. The gods had entrusted Pandora with a box that she was forbidden to open; however, her uncontrollable curiosity got the better of her and she opened the box, thereby unleashing all manner of evil into the world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age

    I remember reading somewhere that every sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic and gives its user a status of god. We have seen this during encounters between Europeans and primitive tribes around the world. A lighter was considered a magical instrument and a man with a lighter was considered a magician or a god. The culturally and technologically advanced Central European metal workers must have looked like gods to primitive stone age people who lived all around them.

    Greeks, while calling all the northern people barbarians, do tell us that if it wasn't for those barbarians there would not be any gods left in Greece. Remember that all human knowledge was attributed to gods, which means that without barbarians from the north, no knowledge, culture and civilization would have come to Greece and from there to Rome and from there to Western Europe.

    But where was this Gaea, Terra, this original "mother earth"? I believe that Gaea or Terra was Vinca. In the old myths about Gaea, the "mother earth" was not the whole planet earth, but a specific area of Central Europe alongside the Okeanos Potamos, the Sea River, or central Danube area. It is true that Homer (Hymn. in Ven. 228) and Hesiodus (Theog. 79. 282) tell us that Okeanos Potamos flew alongside Gaea or Terra; but under this expression must not be understood the entire earth, but only a certain geographical region, Gaea or Terra, the land or the blessed country, which forms the theater of the traditional legends and great events of the Pelasgian times;

    Map of Vinca

    http://forum.krstarica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=283538&d=1366989354

    Map of central Danubian basen

    http://forum.krstarica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=283540&d=1366236071

    The overlap is incredible:

    Where does the name Gaea come from?


    This is what Eumelus of Corinth, Titanomachia Frag 1 (from Plotius) (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek Epic C8th B.C.) says about Gaea:
    "The Epic Cycle begins with the fabled union of Ouranos (Sky) and Ge (Earth), by which they make three Hekatontacheiroi (Hundred-handed) sons and three Kyklopes to be born to him."

    http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Gaia.html

    In Irish we have this word:

    cé - the earth, used only in the phrase an cruinne cé, the (round) earth, Irish, Early Irish cé, for bith ché, on this earth. The cé is supposed to be for "this", from the pronomial kei, Greek @Gkei@nnos, he, Latin ce, cis, English he. The root kei, go, move (Latin cio, Greek @Gkí;w), has also been suggested.

    cè - give?
    cè - spouse (Carm.), Irish cé:

    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb07.html#cè;

    "open e" (è) pronounced like e in set.
    "close e" (é) pronounced like e in the

    In Serbian both sounds are pronounced in the same way like long e.


    So the word cé, ché, kei (pronounces ke, kge) is an archaic word which means earth. This word also means to give, or what gives, and a spouse which is the root of a modern Irish word céile (spouse). These are all epithets of Goddess Gaea, mother earth, a spouse of the father sky who gives us everything that we need.

    In Irish we also have this word:

    -each (pronounced ak) is a "Celtic" suffix for creating nation names from locations. Example is Spain and Spanish:

    Spáinneach

    Spáinn ("Spain") > Spáinneach ("Spaniard (person)"), ("Spanish (adj)")

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ach#Irish


    This grammatical construct still exist in Irish and in Serbian where suffix "ak" is used for creating nation names from locations:

    Poljska (Poland) - Poljak (Polish)

    but also

    selo (village) - seljak (villager)


    Is word Gaea (gea) still used to denote a region? It is in Serbia. In Serbian we have two interesting names for people based on their geographic location:


    geak/gejak or gedza/geak is a name used by people from pannonian plane when they talk about Serbians from the Balkan part of Serbia proper below Danube. This name basically means peasant, a person of the land. So if people from Serbia are called Geak then their land is Gea. This name was probably originally used by the Geak people to denote themselves because the name for people living in the north across rivers Sava and Danube is "prechani" which means "those who live across the rivers".

    So geak is the inhabitant of Gea, old vinca, the land of gods.

    I did say that we have two words which both point to old Vinca situated on the territory of Serbia as being the original Gea or Tera.
    The modern Irish Éire (pronounced era) evolved from the Old Irish word Ériu, which was the name of a Gaelic goddess. Ériu is generally believed to have been the matron goddess of Ireland, a goddess of sovereignty, or simply a goddess of the land.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire

    So Era is the same as Gea the "mother earth" which later became "mother Ireland" in Ireland or "mother Russia" in Russia. But the original Era was old Vinca situated on the territory of Serbia. People from western Serbia still call each other "Era" and are known to others in Serbia as "Ere". Era is a common personal name as well. This is the same area where we find Mountain and river Tara. There is also a word "erich" in an obscure dialect recorded in northern serbia in 19th century which means god and sky.

    So was the name for Vinca actually Gea? And were proto Irish in the Balkans in Vinca time and did they give the name Gea to it? A million dollar question.

    While I am writing this I am watching the news about the terrible floods, the worst in last 500 years, in Central Europe, which are coming closer and closer to the Middle Danubian basin, old Vinca land. Was the great (biblical) flood one of the things that ended this great old civilization in central Europe and forced it to scatter around the world? If you are talking to dendrochronologist and geologists you will notice that what they have to say sounds more and more biblical every day. It seems that in last 10000 years we had not one but several catastrophic weather events which probably changed the course of history in Europe and the rest of the world.
    Abstract: The new studies on the southeastern part of the Pannonian Depression confirm our idea concerning the existence in this basin of a lake with its shores around +100 m in the Uppermost Pleistocene (the Relict Pannonian Lake, Belgrade – 2006). A morphologic peculiarity placed in the Cazanele Mici area seems to have been permitted the maintaining of the shores for some time at this elevation. The Relict Pannonian Lake could be the direct successor of the Middle Pleistocene Lake made evident as a paleogeographical reality by the Serbian scientists (Beograde, 2006) in the southeastern part of the Pannonian Basin. The severe restriction of the surface of this lake has taken place at the beginning of the Holocene, as a result of the mega-floods, which mark the boundary between the Pleistocene and the Holocene. Therefore, a successor of the Relict Pannonian Lake seems to have maintained for some time in the Lower Holocene with its shore around the +85 m elevation. This perspective confirms the idea of some geomorphology researchers, which accepted a gradual retirement of the Pannonian Lake in Quaternary, associated with a succession of shorelines. In this case, the finalization of the stream system of the Danube, as a unitary river, has very recently happened (in Upper Holocene). In addition a possible connection between a stream system tributary to the Black Sea and another one tributary to the Pannonian area along the actual Danube Gorge could be realized only in the Greben zone (most probably during the Pasadenian phase). The existence of the Relict Pannonian Lake at the end of the Upper Pleistocene seems to be confirmed by the altitude of the all pre-historical sites in the Pannonian area. In addition, important data of mythical paleogeography are consistent with all these possible paleogeographical realities of the Pannonian area.

    http://geolib.geo.auth.gr/digeo/index.php/sasg/article/viewFile/7588/7345


    The paleogeographical evolution of the PannonianBasin

    It is usual to consider that the separation of the Pannonian Sea, as part of the Central Paratethys, took place beginning with the Sarmatian, which meant the isolation of a great endoreic lake, which had a particular evolution for a long time. However, it seems that a last temporary link, demonstrated by the mollusc faunas, was established during the Middle Pontian. But beginning with the Upper Pontian, a definitive isolation of the Pannonian Lake took place, which was maintained, without any doubt, during the whole Pliocene. The lake was characterised by an endoreic, local thermophile fauna, and by a relative pronounced hydro thermalism.

    One can assume as the maximal extension of this lake, during Pliocene, was linked with the Dacian-Romanian coal-generating phase, which made possible the appearance of the Pliocene coal facies known in this basin. Beginning with the Late Pliocene, the Pannonian Lake evolution was very disputed. Some authors (Kázmér, 1990) consider thatin the Late Pliocene (2,4 billion years ago, according tothis author), the Pannonian Lake was filled completely.However, other authors (Voiteşti, 1936; L. de Loczy, 1910,fide Vâlsan, 1964); Oncescu, 1965) consider that the Pannonian Basin was isolated during the Lower Pleistocene as well. L. de Lőczy (1910) considers that during this period (the "Old" Pleistocene), a desert, with rivers without drainage and an arid climate, was installed in the Pannonian Basin. However, in our viewpoint the Pannonian Lake was maintained during the whole Pleistocene, with minimal extensions during the glacial phases (the Riss phase mainly), and with returns during the interglacial phases. This lake drainage by the actual Danube Gorge seem to be realised in the Late Uppermost Pleistocene. However, the drainage was only partial, because, during the Lower Holocene a nonendoreic lake was maintained initially in the SE area of the Pannonian Basin, having its shore at about +100 m elevation for along time (for some millennium possibly). It is interesting to mention that until historical times, the passing of waters through the Danube Gorge was still difficult, thus in spring there was possible to appear a temporary lake upstream,called by the antics "Mare Album"

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/12908242/The-Pannonian-Lake-Disappearance-in-the-Late-Uppermost-Pleistocene-Causes-and-ConsequencesBelgrade-2006

    Here are few more documents that talk about the pannonian lake (sea):

    http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/jart/prj3/nhm/data/uploads/mitarbeiter_dokumente/harzhauser/2004/Harzhauser_Mandic_2004_PPP.pdf

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/124924264/13105354-Atlantis-is-Discovered-Atlantis-in-Middle-Danubian-Depression-Pannonian-Basin-a-New-Location-of-Atlantis-Island

    http://www.geologicacarpathica.sk/special/R/Rakic_etal.pdf

    What these guys are saying is that Danube was real Okeanos Potamos in historical times and certainly during Lepenski vir, Vinca time. Central Danubian plane contained a shallow inland fresh water lake (sea). Danube flew into this sea in the north west and flew out of it in the south east. The surface of this lake (sea) fluctuated within last 12000 years. That fluctuation was probably gradual most of the time. But during these extreme weather events the change in the panonian sea (okeanos) dept and surface area was probably sudden and catastrophic and would spell the end to civilizations flourishing on its shores like Lepenski vir or Vinca.

    The lake was maintained by an obstruction in the area of the Djerdap gorge called Mali Kazan in Serbian or Cazanele Mici in Romanian. The word Kazan means Cauldron and perfectly describes the shape of the gorge in that area. Today the water level in the Kazan area is quite high due to the hydro electric power plant dam further down the river which raised the water level in the gorge. But before the dam was built, this area was notorious for rocks sticking out of the water, its weirs and rapids. Locals made their money working as pilots on ships navigating them through the dangerous shallow waters of the gorge. This rocky obstruction regularly caused ice buildup in the gorge to the point of an ice dam forming across the gorge and causing major flooding in the area before the gorge. I remember when i was a kid watching military airplanes bombing the ice dam in the kazan area to release the blocked up water from Danube river. What could have caused the rock obstruction? A major earthquake is my bet. Let's see if we can find one that could potentially do it:
    A.D. 1601 EARTHQUAKE AND ITS SIGNATURE IN LAKE LUCERNE

    On 18 September 1601, central Switzerland was hit by one of the largest known earthquakes in central Europe. Swiss Seismological Service, 2002). Several towers in Lucerne were destroyed, and Renward Cysat, the registrar of Lucerne at that time, reported in his chronicle, ‘‘What scared people most was that the out flowing river Reuss flowed back into Lake Lucerne so that the riverbed between the two parts of the city almost became dry and several people could cross it by foot, before the water again vehemently advanced towards the city’’ (Cysat, 1601, p. 884). As Cysat traveled along the lake’s shore, he recorded observations such as: ‘‘Ships had been thrown onshore . . . up to two halberds [;4 m] above the lake level. . . . Small islands and shoals had disappeared,’’ (p. 883) as did ‘‘entire houses with sleeping people’’ (Cysat, 1601, p. 887). In Lucerne, the cyclic oscillation of lake level (seiche) had a period of 10 min and an estimated amplitude of 1–2 m (Cysat, 1601; Siegenthaler et al., 1987). An earthquake of this magnitude could not have directly caused such massive water movements that lasted several hours. In fact, Siegenthaler et al. (1987) linked these large-scale water movements of A.D. 1601 to two large slump deposits in the subsurface of Lake Lucerne. These slumps, which occurred during the historic A.D. 1601 event, can be used to calibrate a signature of strong earthquakes in the subsurface of Lake Lucerne. The high resolution of our seismic surveys (10 cm in the vertical direction) allowed us to connect the top of each slump deposit to a distinct seismic-stratigraphic horizon. Such horizons represent isochrones that can be traced throughout the lake basins. By performing a seismic-stratigraphic analysis, we mapped the number of slump deposits coincident with a specific horizon. There are 13 independent slump deposits associated with the A.D. 1601 earthquake (Figs. 2 and 3B). Some of them are overlain by megaturbidites as thick as 2 m. The A.D. 1601 slumps and megaturbidites are located in two separate subbasins.

    IDENTIFICATION OF PREHISTORIC EVENTS

    To reconstruct the earthquake history of the area, we examined the lake’s subsurface for older slump horizons, and deeper in the sedimentary sequence, we detected other horizons similar to the A.D. 1601 event. For example, the seismic-stratigraphic horizon of prehistoric event dark blue (see Fig. 2) is characterized by 16 independent slump bodies in two separate subbasins (Figs. 2 and 3C). The scars of the slump masses are located not only on the sides of the basins, but also on the slopes of a subaqueous hill cresting at .80 m water depth (Fig. 3C), where the influence of surface waves and flood events is negligible. The similarity with the horizon of the A.D. 1601 event, showing numerous coeval slumps and thick megaturbidites, points toward a strong earthquake as a regional triggering mechanism. In contrast, prehistoric event green (see Fig. 2) is characterized by only one huge slump deposit, with a volume of 17 3 106 m3 (Figs. 2A and 3D). Because no other slump is found at the same seismic-stratigraphic level, the trigger mechanism was either an aseismic process or an earthquake of significantly smaller size than the A.D. 1601 event. Including the A.D. 1601 event, five earthquake event horizons characterized by the occurrence of simultaneous, multiple slumping structures were identified. In order to date these horizons, eight gravity cores of 8–10 m length were recovered at key locations in two subbasins. Measurements of density, P-wave velocity, and magnetic susceptibility on these cores enabled accurate core-to-core and seismic data–to–core correlation. Each of the five horizons was dated independently one to four times by combining accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS), 14C dating, sedimentation rate, tephrochronology (Hajdas et al., 1993, 1995), and seismic data–to–core correlation1 . The resulting ages of the four prehistoric event horizons are 2420, 9770, 13,910, and 14,560 cal. yr B.P. We interpret these event horizons as the results of four major prehistoric earthquakes.

    http://www.limnogeology.ethz.ch/SchnellmannGeology.pdf


    So the four prehistoric major earthquakes happened around 410 bc, 2670 bc, 11,900 bc, and 12,510 bc. These are just Earhquakes that were close enough to the lake Lucerne and were able to affect its banks. There must have been lots more further east which were able to affect the Djerdap gorge and cause collaps of its sides and creation of the rock obstruction which we see even today.

    That a major catastrophic earthquake indeed could happen in the Balkans at the end of the 6th millennium bc can be seen from this study on distribution of nephrite artifacts in the Balkans:
    According to recent mineralogical determinations of prehistoric (Neolithic and Eneolithic) artefacts from Bulgarian museums a lot of nephrite objects have been identified (mainly represented by small axes and chisels, ritual scepter and zoomorphic amulets as well as some decorations). Their distribution on the territory of Bulgaria has been traced, together with data on some neighboring countries on the Balkans and in other European regions. A description has been made of the colour varieties, microscopic features and the possible methods of working of some of the nephrite artefacts. The lack of up to now known nephrite occurrences on the Balkans puts the question about the origin of nephrite and the more detailed study of places with ultrabasic rocks. Because of the large number of nephrite objects found, which have been aged since the Early Neolithic, as well as of their significance in the history of human civilization, a Balkan “nephrite culture” has been introduced, which is considered earlier in time (VII-VI mill. BC) in respect to the well known Neolithic “nephrite cultures” in China (Hemudu, Hongshan, Liangzhu, Longshan) and the Russian Federation (Kitoi, Glaskovo).

    The nephrite occurrences in prehistoric times on the Balkans raise a lot of questions. No nephrite deposits are known cited in publications in this region despite of the favorable geological setting with a lot of ultrabasic exposures (Montenegro, Serbia, Albania, Macedonia, Southern Bulgaria and Northern Greece). Nephrite has been probably observed only microscopically in some Eastrhodopian ultrabasic outcrops (Kozhukharova, 1990). The well known European nephrite deposits in Poland (Traube, 1885; 1887), Switzerland (Dietrich, de Quervain, 1968; Stalder et al., 1993) and Italy (Kalkowsky, 1906) have been ‘discovered’ in the late XIX and early ХХ centuries, and do not provide information or can not be related to trade routes on the Balkans in prehistoric times. Another alternative is that the nephrite deposit or deposits on the Balkans have been exhausted or disappeared due to some geological (earthquake; volcano; landslide) or other natural process (soil; active vegetation). Nephrite artefacts are known from prehistoric sites in Bulgaria since the Early Neolithic and they ‘disappear’ after the Eneolithic period. The use of this precious material can be attributed to a population with its specific mythological system in the discussed region. It is a surprise for gemmologists the precision and symmetry of the objects as well as the perfection in their final polishing. On the Balkans nephrite artefacts have been reported from several Neolithic to Early Eneolithic sites in Croatia, mainly along the Adriatic coast and they have been properly distinguished from the similar in colour jadeite artefacts (Petrić, 1995; Burić, 2000), which are widely spread in prehistoric Western Europe (see Campbell Smith, 1965; D'Amico et al., 1995). Other nephrite artefacts are known in Greece (for example from the Neolithic site Sesklo in Thessaly – on display at the Athens National Museum; thanks to Mr. P. Zidarov for his kind information), and probably in Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia (see Kostov, 2005). In the rest of Europe a few small prehistoric polished stone axes with a nephrite composition have been reported rom Poland (Foltyn et al., 2000; Gunia, 2000), Switzerland (Stalder et al., 1993) the islands of Sardinia (Bertolino et al., 2002) and Sicily (Leighton, 1989) and under question from a mineralogical point of view in some other places – all related to possible local or near-by resources (for discussion see Geschwendt, 1977; Kostov, 2005). As the Early Neolithic on the Balkans is dated about the VIIVI mill. BC, thus the observed nephrite objects as part of the Balkan prehistoric area are considered as representatives of one of the earliest ‘nephrite culture’, long time before the well known famous ‘nephrite cultures’ (Hemudu; Hongshan; Liangzhu; Longshan) in Neolithic China (Wen, Jing, 1992) or the Neolithic cultures (Kitoi; Glaskovo) in the Angara-Baikal region of the Russian Federation (Okladnikov, 1950; 1955; Suturin, 1986). In this respect it is interesting to have a precise age of the Neolithic Xinglongwa site in China, from where a few nephrite objects have been reported as the ‘earliest refined ‘jade’’ (Jing, Wen, 1996; Yang, Liu, 1998).

    http://www.mgu.bg/annual/public_html/2005/bg/svityk1/dokladi_pdf/Statia15.pdf

    So at the end of the 6th millennium bc something, like a big earthquake could have covered the only known nephrite mine in Europe and effectively ended the nephrite civilization. The same earthquake could have created the Djerdap gorge rock obstruction. All that we need to create a new pannonian sea is a major weather event like a continuous prolonged rain that would exceed the draining power of the Danubian basin and cause major flooding in the upper and middle Danubian basin. What do you need to build a dam across the river and create a big lake behind it? You need a narrow gorge (Djerdap), lots of trees and mud and silt and clay. Something like a giant beaver dam. You don't need beavers or people to make one. All you need is a rock obstruction, lots of giant pannonian oak trees, some over 50 meters tall and 50 meters in crown diameter, uprooted and carried into a narrow space of djerdap gorge together with pile of silt, clay and sand. The trees would get entangled in the rocks and would quickly form a sieve made of branches and leaves which would start accumulating soil deposits and smaller wood debris. The dam could grow rapidly in thickness and in height until it would completely block the river. The level of water behind the dam would rise as more and more material sediments behind the barrier and the dam grows in thickness and height. Behind the dam more and more water would accumulate until all the land behind the barrier would be flooded to the level of the barrier. And the Pannonian sea would rise again.

    Interestingly the Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus Strait. But the deluge could also have come from bursting of the mud dam in the Iron Gate and emptying of the pannonian lake.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

    Here is the Iron Gate gorge now.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Gates

    Here are pictures of Iron Gate gorge as it looked like before 1860 when many of the rocks were cleared to enable river navigation. It is clear from these pictures that the creation of the major weather event dam was perfectly possible. The Iron Gate dam could have been created and destroyed in two major earthquakes. I remember many years ago a big earthquake in Montenegro. Whole villages sunk into the sea. Mountain sides cracked and crumbled into the sea. So the original rock barrier could have been created by one earthquake collapsing the sides of the gorge into the river. These rocks could have been sticking out of the water like a comb allowing the accumulation of the debris during the fallowing major weather event. Then the barrier could have been destroyed by another earthquake which would crumble it to bits or just sink it?

    http://alexisphoenix.org/sipcanal.php

    I believe that this iron gate dam creation and destruction is exactly what happened and not once. To find out when these events could have occurred, we need to locate the major weather events of the past.

    Minoan eruption and consequent weather changes

    Tree rings

    Another method used to establish the date of eruption is tree-ring dating. Tree-ring data has shown that a large event interfering with normal tree growth in North America occurred during 1629–1628 BCE.[35] Evidence of a climatic event around 1628 BCE has been found in studies of growth depression of European oaks in Ireland and of Scotch pines in Sweden.[36] Bristlecone pine frost rings also indicate a date of 1627 BCE, supporting the late 1600s BCE dating.[37][38] Procedural changes in how ice cores are interpreted would bring that data more in line with the dendrochronological numbers.[39]

    Climatic effects

    Hydrogeologist Philip LaMoreaux asserted in 1995 that the eruption caused significant climatic changes in the eastern Mediterranean region, Aegean Sea and much of the Northern Hemisphere,[43] but this was forcefully rebutted by volcanologist David Pyle a year later.[44]
    Around the time of the radiocarbon-indicated date of the eruption, there is evidence for a significant climatic event in the Northern Hemisphere. The evidence includes failure of crops in China (see below), as well as evidence from tree rings, cited above: bristlecone pines of California; bog oaks of Ireland, England, and Germany; and other trees in Sweden. The tree rings precisely date the event to 1628 BCE.[35][36]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption
    The extreme weather events of 535–536 were the most severe and protracted short-term episodes of cooling in the Northern Hemisphere in the last 2,000 years.[1] The event is thought to have been caused by an extensive atmospheric dust veil, possibly resulting from a large volcanic eruption in the tropics,[2] or debris from space impacting the Earth.[3] Its effects were widespread, causing unseasonal weather, crop failures, and famines worldwide.[3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536

    In the book "The Secrets of the Irish Landscape" we read that according to the dendrochronological research done in Ireland on Irish bog Oaks, during the period between 2354 bc and 2345 bc the oaks completely stopped growing and showed bark changes which indicate that they were submerged in water. It seems that it started to rain and it didn't stop for 10 years. This caused complete failure and disappearance of the existing stone age culture due to crop failure. After the rain stopped we see the old culture being replaced by the beaker culture in a sharp artifact cut. Interestingly in the annals of four masters we find this:
    The Age of the World, 2545. Rudhruidhe, son of Parthalon, was drowned in Loch Rudhruidhe, the lake having flowed over him; and from him the lake is called.

    The Age of the World, 2546. An inundation of the sea over the land at Brena in this year, which was the seventh lake eruption that occurred in the time of Parthalon; and this is named Loch Cuan.

    http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100005A/
    The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Archbishop of Armagh (Church of Ireland). The chronology is sometimes associated with young Earth creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago by God as described in the first two chapters of the Biblical book of Genesis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

    I am not saying that the earth was created at 4000 bc. But maybe some "world" or civilization did get created. The scattering of the Vinca people did happen in the 4th millennium bc. And if we know that Gea, mother earth was Vinca, than maybe the earth was Vinca? Anyway the reason why i am mentioning Ussher chronology is that in his list of dates the date for the biblical flood to 2348 bc, right in the middle of the above major weather event.

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/world-born-4004-bc

    But the bible and the Irish are not the only ones to record this event. In Chinese records we read that after there were 9 years of rain after 2346 bc.

    Mayans talk about big floods and rain in 236o.

    Something major weather wise has happened in the middle of the 3rd millennium bc which could have caused either creation or more likely bursting of the Iron Gate dam and another major deluge. Were there previous events like this one? Probably if we judge it by the Black sea data.

    I think this requires a lot more research and combining of geological, archaeological and historical data in order to get the correct dating for the sequence of events surrounding the pannonian sea and gea story. But there is lots of data out there and i hope someone takes it up on himself to do it. This is enough on this from me for now.

    Have fun


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    The reason why i am talking about pannonian sea (lake) is this:

    http://shebtiw.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/at2a.jpg
    http://shebtiw.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/at0.jpg

    Anyone has any idea what this is? It is huge.

    and particularly this:

    Cornes¸ti-Iarcuri — a (the biggest) Bronze Age town in the Romanian Banat?

    Iarcuri is 5000 acres and Celtic standards say there were 500,000 people within its wall. It's 25% bigger than Rome. It's 45 times bigger than Troy in turkey.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.93217,21.240864&spn=0.067934,0.11055&t=h&z=13
    http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/9oh73hl5ts1ogd5r/images/3-a275b0ddb2.jpg
    The innermost, almost circular, rampart (hereafter Enclosure I) has a diameter of 1km(east–west) and is flanked to the north and south by two valleys (Figure 3). The secondenclosure (Enclosure II) is more oval in nature and has a diameter (north–south) of about2.2km, encompassing Enclosure I, the two valleys, as well the southern terraces and plateau.The third rampart (Enclosure III) is also oval in shape with a diameter (north–south) of 2.8km. The total area of over 1700ha is that of the outermost ring (Enclosure IV), which measures 5.5km east–west and c. 3.9km north–south, with a perimeter length of almost16km (Micle et al.2006:286–90; Heeb et al .2008:185)
    This is the eviction time line.

    http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JdSFWDQJiuw/ThH104ArFQI/AAAAAAAAk4w/d6eY4bhEBko/s576/cornesti.gif


    This is the document about this ancient city.

    http://www.academia.edu/1255464/Cornesti-Iarcuri_a_Bronze_Age_town_in_the_Romanian_Banat

    How many people here have heard of it? I only heard of it two weeks ago, but I expected these great cities to be there based on my linguistic and mythological research. Everything was pointing to exactly this place to be the birth place of Apollo and it seems that it is. I will write more about Apollo later.

    For now just a question: could this be the original Troy as the person who sent me the link to this document suspects?

    These are the questions he is asking:

    Eviction date seems to be the Trojan war and sea people migration in one.

    What does "mythology" say about Troy?

    Troy was built on virgin land just 5 generations before its fall.
    There should be an ancient, huge and famous circular temple of Apollo nearby.
    The city is supposed to be very large and quite a distance from the beach.
    The text does say heaped up walls not stone.
    The Greek camp should be very near the Trojan port and there should be a mound.
    It should be on Okeanos (Danube) and a drying up part of Okeanos at that.

    Iron was invented in south of Serbia in 1400 bc. Is this what caused the end of Troy? Balkan tribes with iron swords? If so, where should we look for Heracles? Serbia? Dinaric or Carpathian mountains? And if so who were the sons of Heracles, the ultimate patriarchal tribe? Did you know that in Montenegro they swear by saying "jebem ti oca" which means "i f**k your father" as the worst curse you can imagine?

    Before the Trojan War, Poseidon sent a sea monster to attack Troy. The story is related in several digressions in the Iliad (7.451-453, 20.145-148, 21.442-457) and is found in Apollodorus' Bibliotheke (2.5.9). Laomedon planned on sacrificing his daughter Hesione to Poseidon in the hope of appeasing him. Heracles happened to arrive (along with Telamon and Oicles) and agreed to kill the monster if Laomedon would give him the horses received from Zeus as compensation for Zeus' kidnapping Ganymede. Laomedon agreed. Heracles killed the monster, but Laomedon went back on his word. Accordingly, in a later expedition, Heracles and his followers attacked Troy and sacked it. Then they slew all Laomedon's sons present there save Podarces, who was renamed Priam, who saved his own life by giving Heracles a golden veil Hesione had made. Telamon took Hesione as a war prize; they were married and had a son, Teucer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

    Is this Troy? Right in the area which produced the legend of king Trojan? And were Troyans speaking proto Irish as we saw from the "tre" word group?

    tré- triad - trojstvo
    tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
    tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
    tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
    tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
    treabhcas - tribe - pleme
    treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
    treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
    treabh - plough - plug
    treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
    trea- spear - koplje
    trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is a warrior.
    treas- battle - bitka
    treasair - conquer - osvojiti
    treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
    triath - lord, prince - gospodar, prince


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    I just notices something strange. Please look at these two pictures and have a look at the scales:

    Iarcuri

    https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.93217,21.240864&spn=0.067934,0.11055&t=h&z=13

    timisoara (just south of Iarcuri towards Danube)

    https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Timi%C8%99oara,+Timi%C8%99,+Romania&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x4745677dcb0fb5a7:0x537faf6473936749,Timi%C8%99oara,+Romania&gl=ie&ei=E7ywUY3IOsu2hAf05YHYBw&ved=0CJgBELYD

    Look at the outline of timisoara? Does this look like ring forth? If it turns out that timisoara was built following outlines of a previous ring forth, then Iarcuri is a village compare to this one. This one is truly colossal.

    Here is an old map of timisoara. Still looks like ringfort. Please note the name belvaros (bograd, belgrade, white city)

    http://www.antiquaprintgallery.com/romania-1911-temesvr-timisoara-interesting-old-vintage-town-map-137492-p.asp
    Archaeological discoveries prove that the area where Timişoara is located today has been inhabited since ancient times. The first identifiable civilization in this area were the Dacians who left traces of their past. From coin finds, it is known that the settlement was inhabited during the Roman occupation of Dacia. While no record of the settlement is known from those times, it is generally agreed that the site was inhabited through the Middle Ages when the city was mentioned for the first time. Timișoara region was ruled by Ostrogoths, Huns, Gepids, Avars and Bulgars during three centuries since 630 to 1018, before Hungarian conquest in beginning of 10th century since collapse of Roman rule.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Timi%C8%99oara

    old circular town plan

    1752, 1758: Plan der Festung Temeswar, Temesvar, Timisoara, Stadtplan, harta orasului

    http://romaniaforum.info/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=5116&thumbnail=1&embedded=1

    and this one

    1727, 1734: Plan der Festung Temeswar, Temesvar, Timisoara, Stadtplan, harta orasului

    http://romaniaforum.info/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=5117&thumbnail=1&embedded=1
    http://romaniaforum.info/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=5118&thumbnail=1&embedded=1

    look at circular lines.

    and these

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karte_Temeswar_von_Matth%C3%A4us_Seutter.jpg
    http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/84/Temesvar_1890er-Jahre_I.JPG
    http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/84/Timisoara_1900_II.JPG

    ???


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