Breakthrough Player of the Year?

totallegend

Stuart Olding

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It comes from posters creating a fictional argument and using it to criticise POM in order to take some of the heat away from the captain.

Jesus christ.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

trouttrout wrote: »

You simply can't even compare the two as players until Murphy starts playing Heineken Cup rugby. For example, Murphy's best performance for Leinster came against an utterly useless Cardiff side in the rabo. Now in a year or two he might be able to put in similar performances at a higher level but that remains to be seen (hopefully he can)

My god, have I not said repeatedly that its early days and he hasn't played to that level yet? I could be wrong when he starts playing at a higher level but when I compare Rabo performances between the two Murphy comes out on top. I have no reason to believe that when he does step up he won't be better. Everything I've seen of him this year would suggest this to be the case.

By the way that useless Cardiff side beat Munster last time they played. In any event I'm not basing this on one performance.

POM could do with working on his workrate,

So we agree there then.

but that tackling stat is nonsene. Ireland enjoyed huge spells of pocession during the six nations and you can only tackle what's in front of you.

It didn't stop the rest of the backrow making a lot more tackles. In one game Heaslip for example made over double the amount of tackles that POM did in two games!!

O'Mahoney could make more of a nuisance of himself at the breakdown (not on the deck btw, he's very good at that)

I didn't mention that but I think hes good on the deck, certainly on par with Murphy. Both are very strong in that regard.

What do you mean by this exactly?

Link play essentially means linking up with the backs and other forwards during attacking phases. Murphy will regularly find himself linking up with those outside, running lines off their shoulders, passing the ball along the line and supporting.

Does he? I've never noticed it

Yeah, I don't know you personally so I don't know how much rugby you get to watch but its pretty regular.

POM has carried brilliantly this season, into some brilliant defenses. Murphy has carried well too but not at the same level (you see the pattern here)

The pattern that I myself alluded to. To repeat, for the hundredth time, its too early to say whether he'll excel at that level (I even used those exact words :rolleyes:) but on the evidence I've seen, in my opinion, he will.

I really hope that's clear to you now and you won't go around in a circle again.

Well the simple fact is we haven't seen enough of Murphy to form the opinion that he's better than POM. Maybe next year he'll be pushing for more games at Leinster and there might be an argument to make but not at the moment.

Again you ignore what I actually said. See above and see everyone of my posts on the matter.

Nonsense, he shouldn't have been selected but there are dozens of different articles insinuating that he might be a contender

So if he shouldn't have been selected then why was he unlucky to miss out? You said it yourself. Robshaw and Best are unlucky to miss out. They should have been selected. In your own words, POM shouldn't have been therefore he is not unlucky to miss out.

If you notice I've been reluctant to say what aspects POM is superior at, because tbh, we haven't seen enough of Murphy to make our minds up on that. But the very reason that we haven't seen much of him should be enough to tell you who the better player is at the moment

In fairness, its a lot easier to get into the Munster backrow than the Leinster backrow, thats not even getting into the fact that Murphy is younger, suffered from injury and its his first pro season.

trouttrout

Tommy O'Donnell

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think saying POM plays in the HEC and Murphy hasn't therefore POM is a better player is correct.

Leinster have Heaslip, SOB, McLaughlin, Jennings, Dom Ryan, Ruddock, and A'uva in the backrow whereas Munster have Coughlin, TOD, Stander, Ronan, Dave O Callaghan, and Paddy Butler.

There's a fairly big difference in competition for places between the two teams.

Ireland have capped Heaslip, SOB, McLaughlin, Jennings and Ruddock whereas only Ronan I think has an Ireland cap from the Munster back row.

Although there's more competition my point is that if Murphy was indeed better than POM then he would have featured more

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

trouttrout wrote: »

Although there's more competition my point is that if Murphy was indeed better than POM then he would have featured more

More competition in Leinster backrow, younger player, first pro season, injury etc.

trouttrout

Tommy O'Donnell

Bogota wrote: »

My god, have I not said repeatedly that its early days and he hasn't played to that level yet? I could be wrong when he starts playing at a higher level but when I compare Rabo performances between the two Murphy comes out on top. I have no reason to believe that when he does step up he won't be better. Everything I've seen of him this year would suggest this to be the case.

By the way that useless Cardiff side beat Munster last time they played. In any event I'm not basing this on one performance.





So we agree there then.



It didn't stop the rest of the backrow making a lot more tackles. In one game Heaslip for example made over double the amount of tackles that POM did in two games!!



I didn't mention that but I think hes good on the deck, certainly on par with Murphy. Both are very strong in that regard.



Link play essentially means linking up with the backs and other forwards during attacking phases. Murphy will regularly find himself linking up with those outside, running lines off their shoulders, passing the ball along the line and supporting.




Yeah, I don't know you personally so I don't know how much rugby you get to watch but its pretty regular.



The pattern that I myself alluded to. To repeat, for the hundredth time, its too early to say whether he'll excel at that level (I even used those exact words :rolleyes:) but on the evidence I've seen, in my opinion, he will.

I really hope that's clear to you now and you won't go around in a circle again.





Again you ignore what I actually said. See above and see everyone of my posts on the matter.




So if he shouldn't have been selected then why was he unlucky to miss out? You said it yourself. Robshaw and Best are unlucky to miss out. They should have been selected. In your own words, POM shouldn't have been therefore he is not unlucky to miss out.



In fairness, its a lot easier to get into the Munster backrow than the Leinster backrow, thats not even getting into the fact that Murphy is younger, suffered from injury and its his first pro season.

tbh, It's so obvious that POM is a better player that I'm not even going to continue this argument, because it's just cluttering the thread with off topic stuff and I'm getting a headache. If Murphy is at POM's level next season he'll be en route to becoming a brilliant player

19543261

Jordi Murphy

I'd probably change my vote from Madigan to Henderson after reading some of the comments. My opinions arent so grounded like trout and bog!

Mahatma Geansai

Tommy O'Donnell

trouttrout wrote: »

tbh, It's so obvious that POM is a better player that I'm not even going to continue this argument, because it's just cluttering the thread with off topic stuff and I'm getting a headache

Cheers. My brain was starting to hurt. At Murphy's age, POM was a Munster captain, Irish international and IRUPA young player of the year. As a long time reader, I have to say its the most bizarre opinion I've ever seen on here.

yimrsg

POM is more of a 6 like Croft, fast and mobile in the loose and good lineout operator and has bit of niggle about him. Murphy plays like a hybrid of Heaslip and SOB, he's a powerful runner and very good in the breakdown.

Murphy has played in the HC this year; against Scarlets and Clermont and was unused against Exeter. JM's best performance was against a Cardiff's side that started with 4 Lions' tourists. It was unfortunate that injury curtailed his season just as he was coming into fine form.

Fireball07

Stuart Olding

yimrsg is correct, they're not exactly the same type of player.


Murphy is going to be a very good player, but I do think it's ridiculous saying that he's better than POM at this stage...... it's a bit like saying Hanrahan is better than Madigan.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Cheers. My brain was starting to hurt. At Murphy's age, POM was a Munster captain, Irish international and IRUPA young player of the year. As a long time reader, I have to say its the most bizarre opinion I've ever seen on here.

Considering your other posts on these forums your response isn't surprising.

Firstly, captaincy doesn't equal ability. It means leadership. Cullen isn't Leinster's best player although hes captain. Secondly, Murphy has literally just turned 21 only a few weeks ago. POM was not starting for Ireland at 20 and certainly wasn't starting for Ireland in his first pro season. Thirdly POM didn't win the IRUPA young player of the year award at Murphy's age, Murphy was 20 years old this season and POM won it at age 22, when he was two years older.

My opinion is that by the time Murphy is 23, he'll surpass POM's achievements. Its an opinion and all we can do is wait and see.

trouttrout

Tommy O'Donnell

Bogota wrote: »

Considering your other posts on these forums your response isn't surprising.

Firstly, captaincy doesn't equal ability. It means leadership. Cullen isn't Leinster's best player although hes captain. Secondly, Murphy has literally just turned 21 only a few weeks ago. POM was not starting for Ireland at 20 and certainly wasn't starting for Ireland in his first pro season. Thirdly POM didn't win the IRUPA young player of the year award at Murphy's age, Murphy was 20 years old this season and POM won it at age 22, when he was two years older.

My opinion is that by the time Murphy is 23, he'll surpass POM. Its an opinion and all we can do is wait and see.

That's not what you said earlier. You said he's already better. With another year of rugby under his belt he could realistically surpass POM. They could both be playing alongside each other in a few years for Ireland. In fact I'd be very surprised if that didn't happen at some stage

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

trouttrout wrote: »

That's not what you said earlier. You said he's already better. With another year of rugby under his belt he could realistically surpass POM.

Sorry I mean't surpass POM in regards to achievements i.e caps for Ireland, young player awards etc.

molloyjh

Tommy O'Donnell

trouttrout wrote: »

That's not what you said earlier. You said he's already better. With another year of rugby under his belt he could realistically surpass POM. They could both be playing alongside each other in a few years for Ireland. In fact I'd be very surprised if that didn't happen at some stage

It may have been a poorly phrased post but even I got the jist of it.

Bogota wrote: »

Too soon to say and admittedly Jordi hasn't been tested at the same level as POM but I think I'll be proven right in the future.

It seemed fairly clear to me that what Bogota was saying was that the skills that Murphy has shown could well see him surpass POM when he reaches the stage POM is at right now. He did say that it was "too soon to say" and that JM hadn't been "tested at the same level" but "in the future" he may be seen to be a better player. Can we all just get along now please?

trouttrout

Tommy O'Donnell

molloyjh wrote: »

It may have been a poorly phrased post but even I got the jist of it.



It seemed fairly clear to me that what Bogota was saying was that the skills that Murphy has shown could well see him surpass POM when he reaches the stage POM is at right now. He did say that it was "too soon to say" and that JM hadn't been "tested at the same level" but "in the future" he may be seen to be a better player. Can we all just get along now please?

I'd have no problem with any of that but it's not what he said. He said that Murphy was a better player right now

molloyjh

Tommy O'Donnell

trouttrout wrote: »

I'd have no problem with any of that but it's not what he said. He said that Murphy was a better player right now

It was a badly phrased post, that is all. Yes it certainly looked like that is what he said, but then if you married that up with what is said in the latter part of the post you can see that's not what he meant. If it was then it wouldn't have been "too soon to say".

trouttrout

Tommy O'Donnell

molloyjh wrote: »

It was a badly phrased post, that is all. Yes it certainly looked like that is what he said, but then if you married that up with what is said in the latter part of the post you can see that's not what he meant. If it was then it wouldn't have been "too soon to say".

I don't think it was. He's saying Murphy is a better player atm, I'm sure he'll confirm as much for us

EDIT: In fact, unless he's backtracked, that's exactly what he's said

Bogota wrote: »

I'll be slaughtered for this but I think Jordi Murphy is a better player than Peter O'Mahony.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

trouttrout wrote: »

I'd have no problem with any of that but it's not what he said. He said that Murphy was a better player right now

I said from what I can see hes a better player however until he actually steps up to the level that POM has its too early to say. You're really arguing about semantics here.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

trouttrout wrote: »

I don't think it was. He's saying Murphy is a better player atm, I'm sure he'll confirm as much for us

EDIT: In fact, unless he's backtracked, that's exactly what he's said

Well I do still think hes a better player that much is true. However I am qualifying that by saying that until he plays at the level POM does no one will know. I'm not saying it as a fact (as i've said already its an assumption based on what I've seen so far and will depend on how he peforms at higher levels) and I've repeatedly said when comparing the two players that its too early to say whether my assertion is true. But on the limited evidence I have, yes I think Murphy is a better player and once he gets an opportunity he'll show it

trouttrout

Tommy O'Donnell

Bogota wrote: »

Well I do still think hes a better player that much is true. However I am qualifying that by saying that until he plays at the level POM does no one will know. I'm not saying it as a fact (as i've said already its an assumption based on what I've seen so far and will depend on how he peforms at higher levels) and I've repeatedly said when comparing the two players that its too early to say whether my assertion is true.

So you're saying he's better, but you're also saying it's too early to tell?

That's a complete contradiction

You either think he's better now or he could/will be better in the future

Zzippy

Ian Madigan

They all have argument going for them, but some made the breakthrough in previous seasons, like Madigan, and are much more established players at this stage.
Henderson would be a good choice, but I went with a player close to home and voted for Marmion - 20 years old and started every game this season in Rabo and Heineken, his performances have been consistently excellent. Henshaw is probably more spectacular, but Marmion for me has made huge strides this year, and should tour USA this summer. Future Irish 9 without a doubt, in 2 years time the starting jersey will be between him and Murray.

Honourable mentions to Dave Kilcoyne, Robbie Henshaw and Stuart Olding.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

trouttrout wrote: »

So you're saying he's better, but you're also saying it's too early to tell?

That's a complete contradiction

You either think he's better now or he could/will be better in the future

Nope I'm saying that I think, on what I've seen, that he is better. However because I haven't seen him at the highest levels, I am prepared that I may be completely wrong.

Hagz

Stuart Olding

trouttrout wrote: »

So you're saying he's better, but you're also saying it's too early to tell?

That's a complete contradiction

You either think he's better now or he could/will be better in the future

Sounds like he thinks he is a better player currently, but unless Murphy plays more rugby, there's no way for him to back up his point.
I guess it would be like me saying I think Hanrahan is a better out-half than Keatley. But I can't back up that point until Hanrahan starts playing some games at out-half.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

Hagz wrote: »

Sounds like he thinks he is a better player currently, but unless Murphy plays more rugby, there's no way for him to back up his point.
I guess it would be like me saying I think Hanrahan is a better out-half than Keatley. But I can't back up that point until Hanrahan starts playing some games at out-half.

As silly as it sounds that's pretty much the point. Although its not that I can't back it up. I can certainly back up WHY I think this to be the case, it's more that I can't prove it for certain.

I think Hanrahan is a poor example though because to the best of my knowledge hes had one start. I suppose it would be like saying I think Henshaw is better than Kearney but until I see Henshaw handle an international match I can't say that for certain.

CatFromHue

Bizarrely enough for Ireland and Munster but I think POM has been thrown in too early!

In his first proper season with Munster he was Captaining them and finished it off playing for Ireland against the All Blacks.

I think he would have benefited more from bring brought into the first team more gradually.

For a young/inexperienced player he would have started pre season in July, played his first game at the start of September, and his last game at the end of June. He went from starting for Munster twice in 10/11 to 20 times in 11/12 plus 3 extra starts for Ireland in that season. I mean talk about information overload for the guy as that's a huge amount to take on board

ed7890

Tommy O'Donnell

Bogota wrote: »

As silly as it sounds that's pretty much the point. Although its not that I can't back it up. I can certainly back up WHY I think this to be the case, it's more that I can't prove it for certain.

I think Hanrahan is a poor example though because to the best of my knowledge hes had one start. I suppose it would be like saying I think Henshaw is better than Kearney but until I see Henshaw handle an international match I can't say that for certain.

Hanrahan has started 4 games, 5 after tonights game. Murphy has started 7 for Leinster, so they're pretty close in those terms. They both have two appearances off the bench in the Heineken as well interestingly enough.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

ed7890 wrote: »

Hanrahan has started 4 games, 5 after tonights game. Murphy has started 7 for Leinster, so they're pretty close in those terms. They both have two appearances off the bench in the Heineken as well interestingly enough.

In fairness, Jordi Murphy has played in 22 games for Leinster its not comparable. This ncludes playing for 15mins against Clermont in the HC where he was actually exceptional when he came on.

Bogota

Dave Kilcoyne

By the way, according to the stats JJ has had 3 starts not 4.

So Jordi has had over double the amount of starts and treble the amount of sub appearances. Added to that, JJ has only ever come on as a replacement for more than 10mins in one game whereas in all of Jordi's games he was on for a minimum of 20 minutes going as high as 40 minutes.

QwertyIII

Other

Voted for Olding, has been extremely impressive but in hindsight considering he didn't have a full season maybe not.
Madigan has been playing very well and will hopefully have an even greater season next year, but dont think its his breakthrough really, If Luke Marshall isn't included, neither should Madigan.

so, has to be Henderson for me, from 1st ulster start on the last game of last season, to 5 irish caps by the end of this one. A good year.

TOD looks like a cracking player too. Although I dont get to see him play much, any time I have, Henshaw has been good.


Having only discovered boards.ie recently, is this a usual end of season thread? Or is this a one off for this season, because there seems to be alot of seriously impressive breakthrough players this season, hopefully they all keep improving!

bamboozle

Ian Madigan

Do people realise tommy o donnell is the same age as keatley, Paul o donoghue, Cian Healy, Eoin o malley etc.

Olding, Henderson, murphy, henshaw, marmion and marshall all have had great seasons, I'd go with marmion or Henderson.

bamboozle

Ian Madigan

Fireball07 wrote: »

yimrsg is correct, they're not exactly the same type of player.


Murphy is going to be a very good player, but I do think it's ridiculous saying that he's better than POM at this stage...... it's a bit like saying Hanrahan is better than Madigan.

Much as I agree with you I can quite comfortably say Martin Moore and tadhg furlong are far better players than Stephen archer despite their higher level lack of exposure.