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Kenny says Public Sector workers no longer have job security.

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    #122
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Frank Black wrote: »
    ......
    But what is wrong with the notion of the State reducing it's borrowing requirement by cutting the public sector pay bill through salary reductions or redundancies?
    .......

    Absolutely nothing, except the order in which they occur and the role they play in wider policy.

    I'd be all for a little bit more tax (not corporation tax), a little bit off welfare, modest wage cuts, redundancy and redeployment in the PS, contracting out services, levvying the banks, some degree of student loans, greater use of state assets, privatisation etc

    The problem is that there are more efficient ways to tackle the public sector paybill than by reducing wage rates - and it's wrong (on so many levels) to maintain people in jobs or roles that no longer exist even on reduced wage levels.

    I'd also suggest that if the 'negative' incentive of dismissal because of poor performance is properly brought in, then positive incentives such as Performance Related Pay, bonus etc are also introduced on foot of a functional performance appraisal system.

    At the moment everyone gets paid the same regardless of how effective they are. That's wrong.

    Incidentally, I can't speak for other areas but in my own place people voted against CP2 for a variety of reasons. The pay cut was regarded as unfair and inequitable, but there was a resignation that it would go through - what tipped people over the edge was a lot of the baggage they lumped in relating to working patterns the implementation of which was going to save precisely zero euros.

    Hopefully this time around they'll come up with something that's fairer and might actually have one or two cost neutral benefits in there. Hell, if they are half as clever as they think they are they should be able to come up with one or two small initiatives that save money and are beneficial!


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    #123
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,853 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Swanner wrote: »
    Every job can be performance managed. It's obviously more subjective for some and that's where good management plays a role. For the example you mention above, take an average, apply a 20% improvement and you have your target. That target then shifts another 20% for the next performance review and so on. You can also add other targets like how they achieve their numbers, cost and efficency savings they identify, certifications achieved, projects completed etc ect. Do I assume from your post that these roles are not currently managed in this way ?

    Again, it's different. You have one person doing a job in which the amount of work is constantly on the rise, while each individual warrant/summons takes a certain amount of time. This time cannot be performance based, as it's not as simple as one might think. The warrant/summons could take 15 minutes to serve, and to update the system. The next could take weeks. The time cannot be quantified. Adding a target of 20% on last weeks numbers is just not realistic. That's the same as saying "You arrested 10 people last week, make it 12 this week". You just cannot do that.

    And it is currently being watched by management. But they realise (or should) that it doesn't work like jobs in the private sector. There is nothing to compare it to. Bringing in targets within AGS is madness, and will lead to more problems than the organisation already has.
    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    Maybe cutting job security is the next step in making the public sector (in particular certain sections of it) more cost effective.

    Budgets still have to be met, we are not out of the recession by a long shot.

    The government has tried to control the public pay packet by voluntary redundancies, pay cuts and recruitment freezes. But there are still inefficiencies and wastage in the sector. What is the point in the tax payers money paying the wage of someone who is ineffecient in their job. Is it not common sense that if you are cr#p at your job you should be shown the door? There is no incentive there for many public sector workers to actually do a good job (bar those who are actually passionate about their work). Why should they, they are going to be paid either way.

    If job security is cut from the public sector, the wheat is sorted from the chaff and we may be left with a more efficient public sector system... Is that not what we want??

    Again, i can only talk about my experience in AGS, but if someone is crap at their job they will be disciplined, and will be asked to leave if things get that bad. I've seen it happen locally as recently as last year. It's very, very different from a normal job. There's a lot more to take into account when someone might be getting the cut. It's not black and white.

    But it does happen. Every month, internally, you'll probably see people being "dismissed", or "resigned" which is offered to them to leave without a fight. This happens in the private sector too. I was asked to leave a job when i was younger. They said i had lost my interest in the job, and asked me to leave with a months full pay. I obviously jumped at the opportunity (circa '04), and looking back i would have had a case for unfair dismissal had i fought it.


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    #124
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    @Potential-Monke - I agree with your point above but you missed out something a bit important.

    In a regulatory / investigative role it's quite easy to allocate quotas or targets, the problem is setting that against quality.

    If you tell a Guard I want 10 arrests this week - he or she will give you 10 arrests, if you tell them 12 hey'll give you 12 - but I'd imagine they'd be soft arrests.

    In my own role we work on a case basis and I see it all the time. We have a certain amount of cases / projects to close out each quarter - all that happens is you pick the easy ones early in the quarter, get the number up to where it should be, and only then go for the more time consuming problems - it means the trivial triumphs over the valuable.


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    #125
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    I agree. It's virtually impossible to fire someone in the public service and some of them will take advantage of that.

    In which area of the public sector are you talking about?.

    I can only speak for the defense forces, but if a member of the defense forces can not pass his/her annual medical or fitness tests they're at a very real risk of losing their jobs.

    Also anyone who has joined from 1994 onwards and who have not been promoted to Sargent and have not filled certain oversea's appointments WILL lose their jobs in 2015 regardless their skill level, medical or fitness status..

    These people don't have copper fastened pensions either.

    So, which area of the public sector are you referring to?.


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    #126
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Mira Mushy Wolf wrote: »
    In which area of the public sector are you talking about?.

    I can only speak for the defense forces, but if a member of the defense forces can not pass his/her annual medical or fitness tests they're at a very real risk of losing their jobs.

    Find it hard to believe there is an annual fitness test when I saw a few members of the army literally shaped like barrells during the Paddy's day parade. Maybe half a pressup and they've passed?:D

    Problem with the politicians we have in this country is the very low calibre of them. ( Or maybe the very high calibre - remember Bertie Ahern when he was Minister for Finance never even had or used a bank account, and explained his finances on gambling and the dig out from his mates in Manchester ).
    Our politicians understand so little about income/expenditure that they could not even run a business, never mind a country. Look at many of our government- they are only teachers, good at promising people their potholes will be filled in and good at attending funerals and gombeen politics.....and rolling over for their mates, the unions.


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    #127
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    Find it hard to believe there is an annual fitness test when I saw a few members of the army literally shaped like barrells during the Paddy's day parade. Maybe half a pressup and they've passed?:D

    "A graded Physical Fitness Test must be undertaken and passed by all members of the Defence Forces each year." - from the Defence Forces Handbook.

    You should go for it - part of the test involves a 10km loaded march - that means you go to the pub and get loaded 10 times in March - that way you're nice and rotund for St Patrick's Day.

    Then once you've done that you should go for the Ranger Wing - dead easy to get in there.......a nice, sensitive boy like you would go down well there ;)


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    #128
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    they looked a bit gay as well as a few stone overweight all right. Maybe because they have little to do? I do not begrudge them their few quid anyway, its other parts of the public service where there is most of the waste and overspending.


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    #129
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    they looked a bit gay as well as a few stone overweight all right......

    Well, you obviously have more expertise in that area.......you obviously like 'em chubby.....


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    #130
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    I have no interest in them at all.....just could not notice how they looked on the Paddies day parade. Thought it was a fancy dress skit first they looked so chubby and unprofessional. You seem to know about them a lot more regards what they like and not like - seems more like your type.

    Just as the German ambassador laughed at Irish public sector wage levels in 2007 ( I gave you the link earlier ) people laugh at our army sometimes.


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    #131
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    I have no interest in them at all.....just could not notice how they looked on the Paddies day parade. Thought it was a fancy dress skit first they looked so chubby and unprofessional. You seem to know about them a lot more regards what they like and not like - seems more like your type.

    Just as the German ambassador laughed at Irish public sector wage levels in 2007 ( I gave you the link earlier ) people laugh at our army sometimes.

    I do like the soldier boys (it's the uniforms) and unlike you I have the height of respect for anyone willing to pull on the uniform and then go to the absolute sh1t pits around the world to protect people who cannot defend themselves.

    Same with nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics, coast guard, civil defence, RNLI, etc

    They're not saints but they're willing to do jobs that put their physical and psychological safety at risk for the sake of people they quite often have never met before - next time something goes bang! and you're running away from it, take a moment to see who is running towards it.


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    #132
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I do like the soldier boys (it's the uniforms)
    If you like boys you need help.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    Same with nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics, coast guard, civil defence, RNLI, etc

    The RNLI are volunteers, the rest are not - they are highly paid professionals.
    Our "nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics etc" are so good that despite the fact we are bankrupt / the IMF are here, we pay them an average of €49k a year. To put that in context, in the UK their "nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics etc" are paid £ 23.6k a year. I provided the link earlier.

    Ah, but shure our ones are worth the extra!

    That sort of thinking is why we have a financial crises in the country - and the lenders of last resort telling us they will not go lending us the tens of billions to continue paying our public service unless there are cuts.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    They're not saints but they're willing to do jobs that put their physical and psychological safety at risk for the sake of people they quite often have never met before

    Its not that dangerous ffs : more people are killed in farm and industrial and fishing accidents. What a shower of overpaid pansies some ( not all ) in the public service are. .


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    #133
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    I know you're on a wind up, but I've an evening to feed the trolls so here goes.
    true wrote: »
    Find it hard to believe there is an annual fitness test when I saw a few members of the army literally shaped like barrells during the Paddy's day parade. Maybe half a pressup and they've passed?:D

    You seen members of the Reserve Defense Forces on parade. They do not have to meet the same requirements in terms of fitness, medical and contractual commitments as we do.
    true wrote: »
    The RNLI are volunteers, the rest are not - they are highly paid professionals.

    The Reserve Defense Force are all volunteers.. Not one of them were paid for giving up their free time on Saint Patricks day.

    You have no idea what you're spouting about.

    true wrote: »
    If you like boys you need help..

    And that remark is beneath contempt, it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and you're using it as a gutter snipe attempt to have a go at another poster.. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that.


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    #134
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    true wrote: »
    If you like boys you need help.



    The RNLI are volunteers, the rest are not - they are highly paid professionals.
    Our "nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics etc" are so good that despite the fact we are bankrupt / the IMF are here, we pay them an average of €49k a year. To put that in context, in the UK their "nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics etc" are paid £ 23.6k a year. I provided the link earlier.

    Ah, but shure our ones are worth the extra!

    That sort of thinking is why we have a financial crises in the country - and the lenders of last resort telling us they will not go lending us the tens of billions to continue paying our public service unless there are cuts.



    Its not that dangerous ffs : more people are killed in farm and industrial and fishing accidents. What a shower of overpaid pansies some ( not all ) in the public service are. .

    I like the soldier boys with their big weapons........and their bayonets. When you start shaving you might understand.

    Coastguard & Civil Defence are largely staffed by volunteers.

    The RDF, as has been pointed out, is voluntary and the Garda reserve is voluntary.

    Fishing, construction etc are tough jobs and potentially quite dangerous, thankfully for you ignorance is neither fatal, nor permanent.


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    #135
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    true wrote: »
    If you like boys you need help.



    The RNLI are volunteers, the rest are not - they are highly paid professionals.
    Our "nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics etc" are so good that despite the fact we are bankrupt / the IMF are here, we pay them an average of €49k a year. To put that in context, in the UK their "nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics etc" are paid £ 23.6k a year. I provided the link earlier.

    Ah, but shure our ones are worth the extra!

    That sort of thinking is why we have a financial crises in the country - and the lenders of last resort telling us they will not go lending us the tens of billions to continue paying our public service unless there are cuts.



    Its not that dangerous ffs : more people are killed in farm and industrial and fishing accidents. What a shower of overpaid pansies some ( not all ) in the public service are. .


    I'd bet you have used a lot of public services and been treated well. If only they knew the contempt you had for them.


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    #136
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    RobbingBandit wrote: »
    Sack all the old lazy fcuks not doing a good enough job, there are so many better educated, computer savvy 20-35 year old people on the dole or being forced to flee this dump of a country, hire them and get the country running again.
    Spot on.


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    #137
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I do like the soldier boys (it's the uniforms) and unlike you I have the height of respect for anyone willing to pull on the uniform and then go to the absolute sh1t pits around the world to protect people who cannot defend themselves.

    Same with nurses, gardai, firefighters, paramedics, coast guard, civil defence, RNLI, etc

    They're not saints but they're willing to do jobs that put their physical and psychological safety at risk for the sake of people they quite often have never met before - next time something goes bang! and you're running away from it, take a moment to see who is running towards it.
    Jesus Christ don't be so melodramatic.


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    #138
    space_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 663 ✭✭✭space_man


    Kenny is right.
    As a country we can no longer afford being held to ransom by a large, inefficient, overly-protected public sector.
    The UK faced a similar situation when Maggie took over, and she simply took the power off them.
    Do Kenny, Gilmore, Noonan and Howlin between them have even half the balls Maggie had? I think not.


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    #139
    Susie120704
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Susie120704


    almighty1 wrote: »
    Do you have any ideas what % of public sector gross weekly wage goes on their pension? Really? Any idea?

    For me it is 16% of my gross wages. This is 7.6% pension levy. 3.8% AVC for years when I was temping and 5% pension deduction. As well as this I am deducted 1.5% widows and orphans


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    #140
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Jesus Christ don't be so melodramatic.

    FYP ;)


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    #141
    Susie120704
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Susie120704


    What really annoys me in this country is the constant comparison between public and private sector. Yes we have job security but we too pay taxes and most of us work hard. Like many in the private sector our conditions have been eroded since the recession. I do agree with many posters that if you don't do your job well, you should not be employed


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    #142
    cosbloodymick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭cosbloodymick


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    So public sector workers no longer have job security that normally comes with a public sector position. Well that's according to Enda Kenny today. Does that suggest it should be reflected upwards in their pay given that the usual security of their position is now gone! In fairness to public sector workers (which I'm not one of) theuve always been seen to sacrifice wages for security. If that's gone then why work for less, especially if -at the lower end of things- you can actually get better wages in the private sector.

    No Joe Duffy "I know a fella in the public sector" crap now, this is not a public v private sector debate. This is a genuine look at how we might actually end up with nothing but the worst of the worst in the public sector.

    If Enda sacks us and we are unable to secure alternative employment what are we supposed to live on as we are not entitled to the dole or the state old age pension, as we are denied the opportunity to pay a full prsi contribution. I guess we will just starve.


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    #143
    mountai
    Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭mountai


    cosbloodymick wrote: »
    If Enda sacks us and we are unable to secure alternative employment what are we supposed to live on as we are not entitled to the dole or the state old age pension, as we are denied the opportunity to pay a full prsi contribution. I guess we will just starve.

    Welcome to the world - - Of the Self employed . Sure THEY contribute
    NOTHING


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    #144
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Susie120704 wrote: »
    What really annoys me in this country is the constant comparison between public and private sector. Yes we have job security but we too pay taxes and most of us work hard. Like many in the private sector our conditions have been eroded since the recession. I do agree with many posters that if you don't do your job well, you should not be employed


    The comparison in necessary to make as most public sector workers have no concept as to the 'value' of your job security - neatly illustrated by your flippant mention of it above.


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    #145
    Birroc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    Jawgap wrote: »
    next time something goes bang! and you're running away from it, take a moment to see who is running towards it.

    :pac::pac::pac:

    The same guys that will be looking for compensation for deafness?


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    #146
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    Birroc wrote: »
    :pac::pac::pac:

    The same guys that will be looking for compensation for deafness?


    Oh LOL, you so funny mister. You so talented, me love you long time 'cos you sooooo funny. Me give you beaucoup monies for your funny bits.

    Please do more funnies so I can give you more of my funny money, me loaded.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #147
    Birroc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    1. I obviously touched a nerve
    2. You're watching too many American war movies
    3. You can't handle the truth

    :P


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    #148
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,697 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    Im in the private sector and I have a fellow employee who is so unreliable and incompetent that they have her doing the most basic of admin tasks which involves copying figures from one sheet to another and even then she oftem makes mistakes. Thing is, she has been spoken to so many times its obvious the management have no balls to implement the disciplinary policy in place so she coasts in her current position whilst the lower paid workers are picking up the slack. This idea that all private sector workers are in constant fear of their job security and strong-arm management is a myth.


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    #149
    mountai
    Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭mountai


    Boss - - - - Cock - - - - Suck
    ???????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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    #150
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    Birroc wrote: »
    :pac::pac::pac:

    The same guys that will be looking for compensation for deafness?


    I think you'll find that anyone who joined the Defence Forces in the last 20 years won't be involved in the whole army deafness scenario. Most of that stuff stretched back to people with service before that so you're wasting your time having a dig at most serving soldiers...............but sure feel free to do so


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    #151
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    Im in the private sector and I have a fellow employee who is so unreliable and incompetent that they have her doing the most basic of admin tasks which involves copying figures from one sheet to another and even then she oftem makes mistakes. Thing is, she has been spoken to so many times its obvious the management have no balls to implement the disciplinary policy in place so she coasts in her current position whilst the lower paid workers are picking up the slack. This idea that all private sector workers are in constant fear of their job security and strong-arm management is a myth.

    People like that are annoying, but they rarely advance in the workplace beyond the more basic roles undertaken by the company even if they never get sacked. If you work hard in the same place and don't advance up your companies career ladder way above her and relatively quickly, then there's some thing wrong in the companies' internal structure.

    In fairness, I haven't worked in the public service in Ireland, so I don't know what this girls career path would be in the ps, but I would be interested to hear from ps workers whether this girl would advance higher in the ps due more to length of service as opposed to ability?


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