Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

RightTurnClyde

stanflt wrote: »

Grazed grass closer to 8 c per kg dm

Rent or land charge 200
Fert 180
Water and electric 20
Road mainainence 40
Spray 30
One topping or pre mowing or silage cut per year 20

At 15ton grown per ha it's 8.1c per kg dm
At 12tom grown it's 10.1 c per kg dm

And reseed probably another €20.
Well done Stan for putting up the figures. You can plainly see now where the figures can get skewed when land charge is either left in or taken out.

FarmerDougal

stanflt wrote: »

No just grown- wastage with all crops

80% utilized pushes cost to 10c/kgdm
15t/ha I presume is above average performance too

Your maize begins to look even better?

ted_182

Shouldn't we be basing the value of our forages on units of energy per kg/dm and not solely on DM yield?

Dawggone

So.
Grazed grass = 8c/kg dm.
Grass silage = 13.5c/kg dm
Maize silage (Ireland) = 13c/kg dm

Maize silage (France) inc. land = 3.5c/kg dm.

Considering that grass alone is only good for 3.5 - 4.5k litres of milk, from the figures above, the obvious conclusion must be that there is a place for forage maize in Irish dairy....


For my own operation I should be planting maize in grazing ground.

stanflt

FarmerDougal wrote: »

80% utilized pushes cost to 10c/kgdm
15t/ha I presume is above average performance too

Your maize begins to look even better?

Maize only complements excellent grass and silage imo

Maize low in protein but high in energy
76-80 dmd silage 16% protein and 35plus % dm
Grass 85 dmd 22% prot but only 12-18 % dm

In an ideal world all my cows would calve in October or November and I could push serious amount of high quality feed into them till April- when grass is plentiful you could nearly cut out all meal and they would still milk extremely well till dry off
Need more liquid quota

Dawggone

stanflt wrote: »

Maize only complements excellent grass and silage imo

Maize low in protein but high in energy
76-80 dmd silage 16% protein and 35plus % dm
Grass 85 dmd 22% prot but only 12-18 % dm

In an ideal world all my cows would calve in October or November and I could push serious amount of high quality feed into them till April- when grass is plentiful you could nearly cut out all meal and they would still milk extremely well till dry off
Need more liquid quota

Very good point. That is essentially what we do here. When on grass in mar/apr/may we get what we call "free" milk.

To me the main problem with maize is to balance it. Soya is the product of choice which at around €400/ton adds a lot of cost.
Whereas to balance a high protein diet is significantly cheaper as maize grain is around half that of soya.

stanflt

Dawggone wrote: »

Very good point. That is essentially what we do here. When on grass in mar/apr/may we get what we call "free" milk.

To me the main problem with maize is to balance it. Soya is the product of choice which at around €400/ton adds a lot of cost.
Whereas to balance a high protein diet is significantly cheaper as maize grain is around half that of soya.

Any soya grown near you dawg I'd have thought you'd have the climate

Dawggone

stanflt wrote: »

Any soya grown near you dawg I'd have thought you'd have the climate

Yes soya grown here but I've cut back because soya is a thirsty crop and I just can't afford the water iykwim.
Maize gives by far the best return on water.

mahoney_j

Dawggone wrote: »

Agree, if you need to get somewhere there is always hardship. Did enough of it myself...

Any chance the conversation could be steered back to costs?
Can Irish farmers produce the cheapest milk in the world?

Cost here is 30 inc drawings .always hardship to reach end goal ,but not long term sustainable .any expansion ,money spent here is fully thought out ,proably why I'm one who constantly questions things here ,make no apologies for it.i try and fully think out things ,barriers ,pitfalls u name it .extra storage and extra facilities combined with extra nos combined .my time is fully valued and I refuse to trudge around in ****e or sub standard facilities just to milk more cows .im a one man show with relief milker,contractor help and help in spring .cows are my passion not machinery,nor milking an ass load of cows with hassle of employees etc .
I never slatted anybofvthe guys mentioned here over last few days ,simply asked questions and outlined potential pitfalls there was some ridiculous stuff threw out like fook the dept and sfp etc etc most of us here wouldn't survive without European money anyway I'm thick skinned ,I've been here a few years and plan on sticking around a few more .often thought about closing my account but love the debates ,warts and all and there's loads to be learned here .

Deepsouthwest

mahoney_j wrote: »

Cost here is 30 inc drawings .always hardship to reach end goal ,but not long term sustainable .any expansion ,money spent here is fully thought out ,proably why I'm one who constantly questions things here ,make no apologies for it.i try and fully think out things ,barriers ,pitfalls u name it .extra storage and extra facilities combined with extra nos combined .my time is fully valued and I refuse to trudge around in ****e or sub standard facilities just to milk more cows .im a one man show with relief milker,contractor help and help in spring .cows are my passion not machinery,nor milking an ass load of cows with hassle of employees etc .
I never slatted anybofvthe guys mentioned here over last few days ,simply asked questions and outlined potential pitfalls there was some ridiculous stuff threw out like fook the dept and sfp etc etc most of us here wouldn't survive without European money anyway I'm thick skinned ,I've been here a few years and plan on sticking around a few more .often thought about closing my account but love the debates ,warts and all and there's loads to be learned here .

Fair enough mj, we accept ur apology and we'll move on!

mahoney_j

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Fair enough mj, we accept ur apology and we'll move on!

Who said anything about an appology !!!!

yosemitesam1

Dawggone wrote: »

So.
Grazed grass = 8c/kg dm.
Grass silage = 13.5c/kg dm
Maize silage (Ireland) = 13c/kg dm

Maize silage (France) inc. land = 3.5c/kg dm.

Considering that grass alone is only good for 3.5 - 4.5k litres of milk, from the figures above, the obvious conclusion must be that there is a place for forage maize in Irish dairy....


For my own operation I should be planting maize in grazing ground.

Would you reckon feeding out/slurry adds much to the cost of maize/silage

Dawggone

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Would you reckon feeding out/slurry adds much to the cost of maize/silage

I honestly have no idea but it's a pain.
I suppose it's a calculation that needs doing. Anyone care to make a stab at it?
Answers in cent/kg dm please!

kowtow

Anyone want to estimate zg as alternative to bales? also pit. . Best discussion I have seen in a long time.

It would be well worth keeping the consensus figures on a sticky or something.

'Feed cost including land' really is the only sensible starting point for any business model discussion.

Great stuff.

kevthegaff

I enjoy a lively debate anyday here than the normal patting on the back that goes on between lads on f&f, but i also enjoy my thanks:-)

Deepsouthwest

mahoney_j wrote: »

Who said anything about an appology !!!!

Oh come mj, ur last post were the words of a broken man, dripping with guilt, angst and remorse., some of Shakespeare's tragedies had brighter endings than it! Like I said, don't worry about it, move on. We all over step the mark sometimes!

mahoney_j

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Oh come mj, ur last post were the words of a broken man, dripping with guilt, angst and remorse., some of Shakespeare's tragedies had brighter endings than it! Like I said, don't worry about it, move on. We all over step the mark sometimes!

Lol

mf240

kowtow wrote: »

Anyone want to estimate zg as alternative to bales? also pit. . Best discussion I have seen in a long time.

It would be well worth keeping the consensus figures on a sticky or something.

'Feed cost including land' really is the only sensible starting point for any business model discussion.

Great stuff.

Beet is another feed id like to see costed.


Dont know about zero grazers. It would probably suit here as i have a lot of mowable ground away from yard.

Its something i considered . Went and talked to a couple of lads using them ( my teagasc advisor brought me to one place mahoney!!@!!!)

I dont know the lads using them were happy but i didnt like the idea of being tied to it and im not really a machinery man. Think id prefer the bales route.

mf240

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Oh come mj, ur last post were the words of a broken man, dripping with guilt, angst and remorse., some of Shakespeare's tragedies had brighter endings than it! Like I said, don't worry about it, move on. We all over step the mark sometimes!

To feed ...or not to feed...that is the question.

mahoney_j

mf240 wrote: »

Beet is another feed id like to see costed.


Dont know about zero grazers. It would probably suit here as i have a lot of mowable ground away from yard.

Its something i considered . Went and talked to a couple of lads using them ( my teagasc advisor brought me to one place mahoney!!@!!!)

I dont know the lads using them were happy but i didnt like the idea of being tied to it and im not really a machinery man. Think id prefer the bales route.

Neighbour here has one milking 110 on 50 acres but I think he is a slave to it ..if he ain't cutting grass he is at slurry and ground he z grazes is gone very worn out looking despite lots of n p and k.new 130 hp new Holland every 3 years and tyres do be completely bald some days cuts 4 loads

stanflt

mf240 wrote: »

To feed ...or not to feed...that is the question.

Which is best- who knows but we all could get very disillusioned

Remember when 'burn ham wood comes to dunsinane '


We could all fool ourselves looking for a particular outcome

mf240

mahoney_j wrote: »

Neighbour here has one milking 110 on 50 acres but I think he is a slave to it ..if he ain't cutting grass he is at slurry and ground he z grazes is gone very worn out looking despite lots of n p and k.new 130 hp new Holland every 3 years and tyres do be completely bald some days cuts 4 loads

Ya thats what id be afraid of . That it would turn into one big hamster wheel.

kevthegaff

mf240 wrote: »

Ya thats what id be afraid of . That it would turn into one big hamster wheel.

Friend has one 150 cows on 70 acres, v good farmer might build grassbon home farm before holidays etc, but lots of slurry, z grazing, guy fulltime! Id love to see z grazing costs compared to conventional grazing

jaymla627

kevthegaff wrote: »

Friend has one 150 cows on 70 acres, v good farmer might build grassbon home farm before holidays etc, but lots of slurry, z grazing, guy fulltime! Id love to see z grazing costs compared to conventional grazing

With it taking nearly 3 litres of milk to buy a litre of diseal all your doing instead of paying for nuts is writing cheques to the local oil company

keep going

Missed all the fun the past couple of days so maybe tell my little story, milking and working up to 2009 when we rented a block of land close to us but not bonsing us but had milking potential. .in 07 put in for a grant on tanks roughly 4 times the size of herd which were built in 08.the land was needing a total revamp but as everyone remember s09 was not fun plus we were caught with the grant scheme delay.so we continued our strategy of planting turnips and outwintering the cows on it then reseeding in the spring which we had used on other blocks to reseed that we had rented.in 12 we built the shed over the tanks and last 3 years all cows were in wintered.this year we are expanding again and outwintering is forming part of the wintering solution but the long term plan is to extend the shed to cater for them.when cash flow allows the first stage is building the cubicles which again will be roofed later when funds allow. Over the years ive got alt of comments about the outwintering and the like but it has served a purpose for me along the road but ultimately I think sheds and silage is the most cost effective way of wintering cows, that said I know of one guy who is wintering 300 cows on beet and has no notion of building.in all I did about 7or 8 years out wintering and got better as I went along but it ticked alot of boxs .my point iseveryone has to do what either suits them or they have no choice but to do and as long they are making progress but they also have to take some of the challenges on board

kevthegaff

jaymla627 wrote: »

With it taking nearly 3 litres of milk to buy a litre of diseal all your doing instead of paying for nuts is writing cheques to the local oil company

dont worry jay i ll never be z grazing, hate machinery! Yep i outwintered 40 cows every year upto last year, really dry ground, have the sheds built now so thats the end of that:-) i did notice higher intake from outdoor feeding

Panch18

mf240 wrote: »

Beet is another feed id like to see costed.


Dont know about zero grazers. It would probably suit here as i have a lot of mowable ground away from yard.

Its something i considered . Went and talked to a couple of lads using them ( my teagasc advisor brought me to one place mahoney!!@!!!)

I dont know the lads using them were happy but i didnt like the idea of being tied to it and im not really a machinery man. Think id prefer the bales route.

If I remember correctly MF240 you have a calf to beef operation on your outside blocks?

You're not considering getting rid of that to get into more cows are you?

Timmaay

stanflt wrote: »

silage system growing 15ton dm per hectare
3 cuts silage and two grazings

fert for silage 155 acre
land charge 200
spray 20
baling wraping and wrap 170
tedding 50
mow 60
transport and stacking 30

total 685acre


15 bales per acre at 37.5%dm 45.66per bales
bale weighs 900kg so 337kg dm/bale

5062kg dm per acre at 685

equals 13.5cent per kg dm



maize

land 200
contractor 240
seed plastic and spray 250
fert 155

total 845ac

avg crop 20ton acre at 33%dm

so 6600kg dm per acre

equals 12.8cent per kilo dm

last year i avg 27ton so that left it at 8.5cent per kg dm

Trying to get a hand on costs per kgDM here also, I buy in a cut of maize and 1st cut grass silage eat year though. Anyways my figures are alittle rougher than yours Stan, however:

1st cut:
Use of the field per acre: 80
3bags Cut sward: 60/acre
Contractor harvest: 110e/acre

Total 250euros/acre

This where my sums possibly go arseways, I don't have a clue of the exact yield, lets call it 10tons wet weight, and it's 25%dm, anyways, 25e/ton wet, or 2.5c/kg wet, or 10cent/kgDM

Maize

I buy a field of this grown on contract, however pay per ton, ie the contractor takes the risk with the yield (the odd load gets weighed when being harvested to keep both sides happy), this year the cost is 50e/ton delivered into my pit.

Easy sum I guess here, assuming the same 33% DM, thats basically 151e/tonDM or 15.1cent/kgDM

I know 50e is too much to be paying for the maize but given we are in winter milk with HOs, and a fairly dire diet otherwise, the maize helps fill the void nicely, during years of low milk prices like this coming winter I'd say the sums get extremely marginal.

This is all assuming I haven't made any mistakes above, please point them out if I have!

Timmaay

Actually going again, Stan, taking your figure of 12.8c/kgDM for maize, and at 33%dm on average, that's basically 42euros per ton wet weight. How much do I value my time at going out, finding an ideal 6 or 8acre field for reasonable rent, finding the dung/slurry etc, contractor to grow it and all that, against 1/2 a days work in Sept firing the covers off the pit and back on afterwards? Doing the maths again, 50 -42 is 8euros, 8euros x 8acres x 20tons per acre is a 1280 euro difference, Assuming a suitable field landed on my doorstep it might actually not be the worst idea to grow it myself? Having said this, my ultimate aim is to ditch all the autumn calvers, and use high DMD paddock wraps to feed the milkers over the winter.

mf240

Panch18 wrote: »

If I remember correctly MF240 you have a calf to beef operation on your outside blocks?

You're not considering getting rid of that to get into more cows are you?

Ya thats right panch. Currently finishing the cattle.

Would have to drop them if going z grazing but i doubt ill go for it.

I actually like the beef side of it.