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Calls to remove illegal UVF flags in Belfast

124

Comments

  • #92
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    There was no "good old UVF". Just because a bunch of them died in a pointless war doesn't change the fact that they were a sectarian gang who committed sectarian crimes from their foundation and went on to make up the a, b and c specials who murdered Catholics in their homes


  • #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    It's about time the Nationalists cooled their jets and quit mouthing. Both sides are entitled to remember their history. The UVF just like the old IRA were once men of honour and principle.

    Yeah Gusty Spence was certainly "a man of honour"....


  • #94
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,788 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Will be interesting to see if these UVF flags are now taken down since the parade is over.


  • #95
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    They stood for what they believed in, there's two sides to this conflict. What happened in later years is a disgrace to Unionism, violent sociopathic thugs, Billy boys. The Republican movement also had it's share of these fcuking lunatics, groups like these break the code and honour. Once that's gone they draw the degenerates.


  • #96
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    They stood for what they believed in

    And that's the very excuse that today's knuckle daggers use.


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  • #97
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    RustyNut wrote: »
    And that's the very excuse that today's knuckle daggers use.

    The IRA before they became an organised crime Mafia group stood for what they believed in, they had a legitimate political aim, a 32 county Republic. The Unionists also had an aim, to keep themselves within the Union. There's nothing wrong with that. Two ideals clash, what can we do?


  • #98
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    Yeah Gusty Spence was certainly "a man of honour"....

    He was not in the old U.V.F.

    Though i think you know that.


  • #99
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    Yeah Gusty Spence was certainly "a man of honour"....

    Certinly as much as Gerry or Martin are


  • #100
    johnnydeep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭johnnydeep


    junder wrote: »
    Certinly as much as Gerry or Martin are
    really.


  • #101
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Good article here on the "old UVF" by Timothy Bowman from QUB http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume10/issue1/features/?id=113605


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  • #102
    Hannibal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Meanwhile close to 100 people are arrested for attending a Republican funeral in Dublin a few months ago, (including family members of the murder victim)...
    That's not quite the full story there.
    a) they were not "Republicans", it was a republican themed funeral. The deceased was an extortionist operating under the guise of a supposedly republican organisation.

    b) the family members in question aren't quite innocent considering one was caught in possession of an assault rifle a few weeks later, and another is a very senior member of the same organisation the deceased was.


  • #103
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Dotsey wrote: »
    That's not quite the full story there.
    a) they were not "Republicans", it was a republican themed funeral. The deceased was an extortionist operating under the guise of a supposedly republican organisation.

    b) the family members in question aren't quite innocent considering one was caught in possession of an assault rifle a few weeks later, and another is a very senior member of the same organisation the deceased was.
    Thats quite libelous and pre-judicial.
    No evidence of your allegation against Alan Ryan whatsoever.
    And the brother was NOT caught in possession of an assault rifle.
    He is awaiting trumped up charges and has not been found guilty of any offence yet.
    Had he been "caught in possession of such rifle" why was he not charged till a year later.

    Also, who are you exactly to judge who is a Republican and who is not?
    Reported for sub judicial and misleading and false information during a court case.


  • #104
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    The IRA before they became an organised crime Mafia group

    I'm guessing you mean the PIRA? If so, you should really stop embarrassing yourself by parroting the nonsense you've been fed.
    An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA.

    It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6276416.stm


  • #105
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,009 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    I'm guessing you mean the PIRA? If so, you should really stop embarrassing yourself by parroting the nonsense you've been fed.

    Aye they were real heroes:mad:


  • #106
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    bilston wrote: »
    Aye they were real heroes:mad:
    Thats what the Brit document says is it?


  • #107
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,009 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    GRMA wrote: »
    Thats what the Brit document says is it?

    I'd certainly hope not.


  • #108
    Hannibal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Thats quite libelous and pre-judicial.
    No evidence of your allegation against Alan Ryan whatsoever.
    And the brother was NOT caught in possession of an assault rifle.
    He is awaiting trumped up charges and has not been found guilty of any offence yet.
    Had he been "caught in possession of such rifle" why was he not charged till a year later.

    Also, who are you exactly to judge who is a Republican and who is not?
    Reported for sub judicial and misleading and false information during a court case.
    Anyone who has their ear to the ground in Dublin knew about this individual and what his gang were upto as regards extortion and intimdation, maybe there's no evidence but it's common knowledge.

    The brother was charged with possession so the trial will be the place to determine whether it's trumped or whether he was in possession. I know he wasn't caught red handed with the weapons, but the charge relates to a murder on the date so I can guess that either they have a witness, an informer or indeed forensics.

    I am not the ultimate judge on who or who isn't a republican or what a republican is or isn't but having seen the two groups in question the last few years I can make my own decision that they are not republicans, they are on the fringes pointing fingers and thats were they will remain. I would regard the party as being obsessed with SF and more focused on being anti-SF than they are on being republicans. I've seen the political face of the group in person and I have come across members and activists so I'm not just sitting behind a computer and casting judgement based on the media.


  • #109
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Theres two factions of the reals in Dublin one of them are complete drug dealing gangsters and then there was Alan Ryans group which rather than have drug dealers pay protection money they used to simply go steal it from them, hence why the drug dealers hated him and had him killed, he was not their friend to say the least. However a fair section of his group were dregs too and were criminals and he let it go on, no doubt benefiting himself. But in the few months prior to his death he had begun to clean up his gang a bit after an ear bashing from the northern reals who are certainly much more serious and were not happy with what was going on. So they say anyway. As criminals go Alan Ryan was not the worst and he did some good on occasion when it suited him. On the whole he was not really a positive figure in Dublin or Ireland. I met him a few times (didn't know anything about him beyond he was in the 32s) and he was a very friendly guy and would volunteer help to complete strangers at the drop of a hat and follow it up but you'd be wary of accepting it.

    But he falls far far far short of the likes of Francis Hughes or other provos, incomparable really.


    Dublin has been rotten for decades in terms of the republican movement so I suppose its logical that it would be the same for dissidents.


  • #110
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Dotsey wrote: »
    Anyone who has their ear to the ground in Dublin knew about this individual and what his gang were upto as regards extortion and intimdation, maybe there's no evidence but it's common knowledge.

    The brother was charged with possession so the trial will be the place to determine whether it's trumped or whether he was in possession. I know he wasn't caught red handed with the weapons, but the charge relates to a murder on the date so I can guess that either they have a witness, an informer or indeed forensics.

    I am not the ultimate judge on who or who isn't a republican or what a republican is or isn't but having seen the two groups in question the last few years I can make my own decision that they are not republicans, they are on the fringes pointing fingers and thats were they will remain. I would regard the party as being obsessed with SF and more focused on being anti-SF than they are on being republicans. I've seen the political face of the group in person and I have come across members and activists so I'm not just sitting behind a computer and casting judgement based on the media.

    "Ear to the ground" "dogs in the street".....
    You mean Trial by media don't you.

    Alan Ryan offered to be interviewed by his accusers in the media so he could have the right to reply to the scurrilous allegations.
    His accusers like the cowards they are feared to face him in open debate, and preferred to carry on the character assasination.

    I was in SF up till 1997 and the same journalists were writing the same lies and nonsense back then against SF.


  • #111
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    But [UVF] paramilitary bosses Stephen ‘Mackers' Matthews, Harry Stockman, Joe ‘No Neck' McGaw and Shankill Butcher Eddie McIlwaine hijacked it to march alongside ordinary people.

    belfasttelegraph.co.uk

    A great day out for the lads.


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  • #112
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    "Ear to the ground" "dogs in the street".....
    You mean Trial by media don't you.

    Alan Ryan offered to be interviewed by his accusers in the media so he could have the right to reply to the scurrilous allegations.
    His accusers like the cowards they are feared to face him in open debate, and preferred to carry on the character assasination.

    I was in SF up till 1997 and the same journalists were writing the same lies and nonsense back then against SF.
    Ryan liked the coverage he got in the media, why else would he constantly get in contact with them?


  • #113
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    A great day out for the lads.
    Nothing to do with the modern UVF at all at all.


  • #114
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    GRMA wrote: »
    Ryan liked the coverage he got in the media, why else would he constantly get in contact with them?
    When did he get in contact with them, other than them doorstepping him or photographing him in the street?
    Do you think he wanted this harassment?
    The one time he bumped into one of these journalists, he offered them an interview (so he could deny the allegations). This was refused.
    Why would an "investigative journalist" refuse an interview with someone he was tailing.
    Because he's a liar and afraid to be caught out.


  • #115
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    The media were not allowed onto the grounds of craigavon house... why was that? To try and shield criminality. Why else ban the media from a commemoration


  • #116
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    When did he get in contact with them, other than them doorstepping him or photographing him in the street?
    Do you think he wanted this harassment?
    The one time he bumped into one of these journalists, he offered them an interview (so he could deny the allegations). This was refused.
    Why would an "investigative journalist" refuse an interview with someone he was tailing.
    Because he's a liar and afraid to be caught out.
    Didn't get the impression he minded the media too much, in comparison to the friendly detectives


    There's no point pretending that he was some sort of great republican, he allowed so many people to engage in criminality and made no attempt to clean his organization up until the very end, and thats fact, we both know it.


  • #117
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    GRMA wrote: »
    Didn't get the impression he minded the media too much, in comparison to the friendly detectives


    There's no point pretending that he was some sort of great republican, he allowed so many people to engage in criminality and made no attempt to clean his organization up until the very end, and thats fact, we both know it.
    Thats not what I'm hearing from people who knew him personally.
    Not saying he was a superhero. Nobody is.
    8 of the 10 HungerStrikers broke under interrogation.
    Francis Hughes was briefly kicked out of the IRA after a drunken incident in Dundalk.
    They're just ordinary fellas, flaws and all.
    But I don't believe a word from the likes of the gutter press when it comes to Republicans of any hue.


  • #118
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Thats not what I'm hearing from people who knew him personally.
    Not saying he was a superhero. Nobody is.
    8 of the 10 HungerStrikers broke under interrogation.
    Francis Hughes was briefly kicked out of the IRA after a drunken incident in Dundalk.
    They're just ordinary fellas, flaws and all.
    But I don't believe a word from the likes of the gutter press when it comes to Republicans of any hue.
    Michael Devine was the only one who broke to my knowledge (after a very short period of time) but buckling in Castlerae is nothing be ashamed of

    The provisionals did not allow members to engage in such huge amounts of criminality and above all drugs. Drugs are a far cry from fags and wash and even then it wasn't to line their own pockets.

    You can't deny that the reals are up to their necks with drugs in dublin, one faction barely even disguises it.

    Considering you were in SF yourself until 97 (and presumably for a while before) you can see for yorself the differences between then and now in terms of criminality, infiltration and general thuggery.

    But I will admit that Alan was a friendly enough guy and always turned up to protests but that in no way excuses the terrible things that went on and in no circumstances excuses criminality which in no way can be construed as being republican activity

    And thats leaving aside my opinion on their political approach o things which imo is miles off course and is worse than doing nothing.


  • #119
    guttenberg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭guttenberg


    What has the character of Alan Ryan and the hungerstrikers got to do with a UVF flag?


  • #120
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    http://www.u.tv/news/Thousands-at-UVF-march-in-Belfast/909D2C98-38CA-412D-8EAD-441F22096B99
    A minute's silence was held for volunteers who had died over the last century.

    Which ones were they? Modern UVF as well?!


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  • #121
    Rubeter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭Rubeter


    bilston wrote: »
    Aye they were real heroes:mad:
    Many many "groups" throughout history and today could rightly be called "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", stating this does not imply one thinks they are heroes, that their cause is honourable, nor even that you agree with their aims, recognising a military force for what it is is just common sense and quite handy when engaging them.
    I'm sure there was many a young squaddie went to the north thinking he was off up against a bunch of thugs and half-witted psychos and then changed his mind quite rapidly or else didn't have to worry about it anymore.


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