Calls to remove illegal UVF flags in Belfast

junder

Madam wrote: »

Gawd - do yis never tire of this whataboutery?

Republicans? No I don't think they do

Madam

What does PUL mean?

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Sources?



The UVF didn't fight in WWI.

http://m.u.tv/News/Two-arrests-amid-Derry-suspect-object/e80cced2-9389-4c70-a701-338cea5fa353

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/15/psni-anti-thatcher-protests-derry

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the uvf did not fight in ww1 that is up to you.

"Unionists, who were particularly concentrated in the northern province of Ulster, naturally needed less justification to join up. Having from 1912 organised a sizeable, armed, paramilitary 'Ulster Volunteer Force' (UVF) to oppose home rule and secure the union with Great Britain, they could scarcely stand idly by when Great Britain itself went to war. Despite some jockeying for party advantage, a substantial proportion of the UVF enlisted to form the predominantly unionist and almost wholly Protestant 36th (Ulster) Division. Nationalists, themselves mostly Catholic, joined the other two of Lord Kitchener's 'New Army' divisions raised in Ireland: the 10th (Irish) and 16th (Irish) Divisions."

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the uvf did not fight in ww1 that is up to you.

This is a commemoration of the UVF not WWI. I don't think the British Army would be too pleased with the bunch of civilian murdering degenerates that made up the Modern UVF, and their associates, hitching their bandwagon to the whole WWI commemoration.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This is a commemoration of the UVF not WWI. I don't think the British Army would be too pleased with the bunch of civilian murdering degenerates that made up the Modern UVF, and their associates, hitching their bandwagon to the whole WWI commemoration.

Are you going to say the same of the Easter rising commerations in two years time?

bilston

GRMA wrote: »

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/latest-alliance-concern-at-uvf-flag-display-1-4998980


Disgraceful that the UVF are allowed to operate openly and hang their flags up in broad daylight.

The PSNI should remove these sectarian flags immediately - nationalists have already lost a lot of faith in the PSNI (see Gerry Kellys speech at SF ard fheis) over the flegs debacle and now this?

What Unionist or Loyalist flags would you tolerate? Are there any at all that you don't find offensive?

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

One rule for them, one rule for us. Any comment t-runner

That's a fringe element of Republicanism. How would you feel about all marching bands, flags and symbolism being expunged from the public spaces of the north? We know that that would have a devastating effect on Loyalism seeing as it's so tied up in these things.

junder wrote: »

Are you going to say the same of the Easter rising commerations in two years time?

The Easter Rising was part of a struggle for independence from an imperial power. Hardly analogous to the celebrating the UVF.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's a fringe element of Republicanism. How would you feel about all marching bands, flags and symbolism being expunged from the public spaces of the north? We know that that would have a devastating effect on Loyalism seeing as it's so tied up in these things.



The Easter Rising was part of a struggle for independence from an imperial power. Hardly analogous to the celebrating the UVF.

The creation of the original UVF and its subsequent transformation into the 36th ulster division is every bit as important as the rebellion in Dublin, but again we see the 'one rule for us, one rule for them'ems ' mentality of republicans

Madam

gallag wrote: »

http://m.u.tv/News/Two-arrests-amid-Derry-suspect-object/e80cced2-9389-4c70-a701-338cea5fa353

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/15/psni-anti-thatcher-protests-derry

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the uvf did not fight in ww1 that is up to you.

"Unionists, who were particularly concentrated in the northern province of Ulster, naturally needed less justification to join up. Having from 1912 organised a sizeable, armed, paramilitary 'Ulster Volunteer Force' (UVF) to oppose home rule and secure the union with Great Britain, they could scarcely stand idly by when Great Britain itself went to war. Despite some jockeying for party advantage, a substantial proportion of the UVF enlisted to form the predominantly unionist and almost wholly Protestant 36th (Ulster) Division. Nationalists, themselves mostly Catholic, joined the other two of Lord Kitchener's 'New Army' divisions raised in Ireland: the 10th (Irish) and 16th (Irish) Divisions."

I wonder if the UVF people in the other 3 county's felt the same after 1922 when the 'other' Unionists deserted them for their wee statelett

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

The creation of the original UVF and its subsequent transformation into the 36th ulster division is every bit as important as the rebellion in Dublin

A group formed to block the self-determination of the people of this island? A group who played their part in cleaving off the six counties to ensure their supremacy and who treated the Catholic minority as subordinates? A group that was subsequently reborn as the despised USC?

As important as an independence struggle against a world colonial power? I don't think so.

As for fighting in WWI, the UVF didn't fight in WWI and there are plenty of ways of remembering British war dead. Let's not pretend this is a commemoration of anything other than the UVF and what it stands for.

OCorcrainn

Fratton Fred wrote: »

These flags are supposedly there as part of the centenary celebrations, which seems pretty legit to me.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It looks to me as though it is commemorating 100 years since the founding of the Ulster Volunteers. What's wrong with that?

T runner wrote: »

Should IRA flags be flown freely in Belfast to commemorate 1916?

1. On this thread you are condescending about the concept of a day commemorating Ireland's struggle for independence. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056886739, stating that it will be a day for "Shinners" and "republicans" to commemorate murderers, terrorists and the PIRA.
-And yet you think this issue with the UVF and the celebration of their sectarian atrocities is perfectly fine and "pretty legit".

2. Care to answer T runner's question? You still have not responded.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A group formed to block the self-determination of the people of this island? A group who played their part in cleaving off the six counties to ensure their supremacy and who treated the Catholic minority as subordinates? A group that was subsequently reborn as the despised USC?

As important as an independence struggle against a world colonial power? I don't think so.

As for fighting in WWI, the UVF didn't fight in WWI and there are plenty of ways of remembering British war dead. Let's not pretend this is a commemoration of anything other than the UVF and what it stands for.

So what your Actully saying is your history is more important then mine

GRMA

Obviously all those prattling on about nationalist double standards didn't read the piece, the unionist alliance party is complaining about them. They were put up outside people's homes and it seems not everyone wants them.

junder

As I mentioned before, atleast in this case we are only talking about flags where as in Londonderry, republicans from the bogside have chosen to celebrate the death of thatcher by attacking the small Protestant enclave of the fountain, as one young person from the fountain already posted on a social networking site tonight 'another bomb found and upwards of 100 youths gathering in the bogside could be an eventful night' but hey lets talk about loyalist flags being put up in a overwhelmingly loyalist area

Iwasfrozen

Disgusting flags, they should be taken down at once. But why are they illegal?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Obviously all those prattling on about nationalist double standards didn't read the piece, the unionist alliance party is complaining about them. They were put up outside people's homes and it seems not everyone wants them.

Think the alliance party would take great offence being called a unionist party

Madam

junder wrote: »

As I mentioned before, atleast in this case we are only talking about flags where as in Londonderry, republicans from the bogside have chosen to celebrate the death of thatcher by attacking the small Protestant enclave of the fountain, as one young person from the fountain already posted on a social networking site tonight 'another bomb found and upwards of 100 youths gathering in the bogside could be an eventful night' but hey lets talk about loyalist flags being put up in a overwhelmingly loyalist area

Good god man you live in the UK and you can still cite a place as a 'loyalist area' as if its the norm!

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

So what your Actully saying is your history is more important then mine

Do I believe the Irish struggle for independence from Imperial Britain was far more important than the history of the UVF?

Em.. yes. Is that not obvious?

When I hear 'UVF' all I think of was the murder campaign they carried out against innocent people from the community I come from.

overshoot

i dont think it should be allowed, lets face it, i could live with the intentions of the founding fathers of the UVF but any nobleness which may have existed in its name has been removed with the troubles and subsequent versions.
surely the same can be said for the original IRA, which brought independence, but now the 3 letters have been pissed on by recent imitations....

perhaps a better question for anyone supporting this flag is would someone in support of these flags have problem for a similar IRA version in small republican areas considering its 100 year anniversary is fast approaching?

OCorcrainn

junder wrote: »

Think the alliance party would take great offence being called a unionist party

So what would you describe them as junder?

Fratton Fred

OCorcrainn wrote: »

1. On this thread you are condescending about the concept of a day commemorating Ireland's struggle for independence. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056886739, stating that it will be a day for "Shinners" and "republicans" to commemorate murderers, terrorists and the PIRA.
-And yet you think this issue with the UVF and the celebration of their sectarian atrocities is perfectly fine and "pretty legit".

Wow, stalk much?

Are the people celebrating the formation of the UVF calling for a public holiday called loyalist day? No? Then it's not the same thing by a long shot.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

. Care to answer T runner's question? You still have not responded.

They do very often use ira symbols as Junder pointed out.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do I believe the Irish struggle for independence from Imperial Britain was far more important than the history of the UVF?

Em.. yes. Is that not obvious?

When I hear 'UVF' all I think of was the murder campaign they carried out against innocent people from community I come from.

Not what I asked. I asked is your history more important then mine, of which you Have answered yes. You may not like it but the creation of the old UVF is of seminal importance to loyalists / unionists its a defining moment in our history as is the subsequent 'blood sacrifice' made at the Somme by the same men who founded the original UVF, the same men that fought side by side with Redmond's IVF men at passchendaele while the men that no doubt you will be celebrating had they failed rebellion in Dublin. Ironic to think that is the British over reaction to the prisoners of the rising rather then the rising itself that secured the Irish republics independence. Where will the men of the IVF factor into your Easter rising celebrations where will thier commeration be.

RustyNut

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are the people celebrating the formation of the UVF calling for a public holiday called loyalist day? No? Then it's not the same thing by a long shot.

I just think its wrong to celebrate any terrorist organisation.

junder

overshoot wrote: »

i dont think it should be allowed, lets face it, i could live with the intentions of the founding fathers of the UVF but any nobleness which may have existed in its name has been removed with the troubles and subsequent versions.
surely the same can be said for the original IRA, which brought independence, but now the 3 letters have been pissed on by recent imitations....

perhaps a better question for anyone supporting this flag is would someone in support of these flags have problem for a similar IRA version in small republican areas considering its 100 year anniversary is fast approaching?

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

GRMA

Junder here despite being a member of the British army has a rather frightening ambivalence towards the UVF and the display of a sectarian paramilitary flag

Ill point out again they didn't have permission and they obviously don't have the support of all the locals.

As for the original UVF, they made up the bulk of the sectarian murderers the a b and c specials they were no different from the modern UVF except they sold less drugs.

RustyNut

junder wrote: »

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

Were the old UVF not set up to use force of arms to subvert the will of the government ?

GRMA

RustyNut wrote: »

Were the old UVF not set up to use force of arms to subvert the will of the government ?

Yes, traitors they were to their king, loyalism is a very confused and conflicted ideology

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Junder here despite being a member of the British army has a rather frightening ambivalence towards the UVF and the display of a sectarian paramilitary flag

Ill point out again they didn't have permission and they obviously don't have the support of all the locals.

As for the original UVF, they made up the bulk of the sectarian murderers the a b and c specials they were no different from the modern UVF except they sold less drugs.

I think I have made distinction between the original UVF and the so called modern UVF. To try and infer some sort of tacit support for the modern UVF is a cheap trick and one that won't work. Yes some locals have complaigned most have not, and no doubt the streets will be lined with tens of thousands of people on Saturday many of whom will be from east Belfast . Funny how now republicans have moved from dictating what can be flown / shown in so called shared spaces, to dictating what can be flown / shown in predominately loyalists areas.

junder

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So what would you describe them as junder?

Finished

overshoot

junder wrote: »

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

yea you follow my point, that the original cannot be condemned by the rip offs and its a shame their names are now stained (lets face it who thinks of either original when their name is mentioned), but i never mentioned the easter rising and the question was would you condemn a similar display for the IRA in 2019?