Does Anti-austeriry really annoy anyone else?

Grayson

gutteruu wrote: »

My tax almost doubled from 7k to 15,000 quid a year in the past 5 years. Can we please stop moaning and moaning and moaning about 100 quid! FFS!

I think you might not realise that to some people 100 quid is a lot more than 15,000 is to you.

MMAGirl

Grayson wrote: »

I think you might not realise that to some people 100 quid is a lot more than 15,000 is to you.

wild baseless assumptions again.

Grayson

MMAGirl wrote: »

wild baseless assumptions again.

It's rare that you see a post that describes itself so well.

MMAGirl

Grayson wrote: »

It's rare that you see a post that describes itself so well.

think about what you have written.
i know its a big ask, but please do.

Opinion Polls today show that Labour are UP 3%.while SF are DOWN 4%. We are not alone in the deep doodo, so is most of the rest of the world. Another poster pointed out that if we were in such dire straits, how could so many afford the marathon drinking sessions to 'celebrate' St Patricks Day? We need to get real and realise that the way we lived 10 years ago was unrealistic and unsustainable today. We keep hearing that the new Government will scrap the Household Tax, but what will they replace it with? Scrapping the Seanad is not a good idea, but cutting it down by 50% would help. Smaller constituencies, with just one TD in a first past the post election, would be a very interesting.
Fair play to the 5,000 who did march yesterday, but what do they aim to achieve? I wish they would give crediable alternative suggestions instead of repeating rhetoric.

Grayson

MMAGirl wrote: »

think about what you have written.
i know its a big ask, but please do.

See, if you have issues with what I've written, maybe you should post it, rather than making vague comments.

Someone bitched about people whinging about €100 when they've paid an extra 7k in taxes. I pointed out that some people have very, very little money and €100 is an awful lot to them. Maybe it's even a bigger amount to them than 7k is to him.

Kinda like telling a starving kid not to whinge about the gruel that was just spilled, shure haven't i just discovered that this place doesn't doesn't serve kobe beef.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair play to the 5,000 who did march yesterday, but what do they aim to achieve? I wish they would give crediable alternative suggestions instead of repeating rhetoric.

That's the thing isn't it. I haven't seen too many other options out there except for a full default.

MMAGirl

Grayson wrote: »

See, if you have issues with what I've written, maybe you should post it, rather than making vague comments.

Someone bitched about people whinging about €100 when they've paid an extra 7k in taxes. I pointed out that some people have very, very little money and €100 is an awful lot to them. Maybe it's even a bigger amount to them than 7k is to him.

Kinda like telling a starving kid not to whinge about the gruel that was just spilled, shure haven't i just discovered that this place doesn't doesn't serve kobe beef.

your post makes no sense.
you assume the guy isnt going to miss 7k and is nothing to him without knowing anything about him.
then you make up an imaginary starving kid.
your post is based on nothing at all.

Grayson

MMAGirl wrote: »

your post makes no sense.
you assume the guy isnt going to miss 7k and is nothing to him without knowing anything about him.
then you make up an imaginary starving kid.
your post is based on nothing at all.

No I didn't. I just said to the guy, that he appears to be assuming that €100 isn't worth that much to others.
My whole post is based around the fact that different amounts can have relative values to different people.

Doh, I've just been trolled by a 50 fat guy wearing no pants right?

gutteruu

gutteruu wrote: »

My tax almost doubled from 7k to 15,000 quid a year in the past 5 years. Can we please stop moaning and moaning and moaning about 100 quid! FFS!

What I would give to have a job that PAID €15,000 a year! Yes, I AM that desperate. Being unemployed for 5 years, apart from doing a FAS CE scheme is soul destroying, more so when you see others moaning about paying the kind of tax you could live on.

MMAGirl

Grayson wrote: »

No I didn't. I just said to the guy, that he appears to be assuming that €100 isn't worth that much to others.
My whole post is based around the fact that different amounts can have relative values to different people.

Doh, I've just been trolled by a 50 fat guy wearing no pants right?

and your post still makes no sense. thats all im saying. dont be hurt

20Cent

People are killed, jailed and tortured around the world looking for the right to have their voices heard. Meanwhile in Ireland we have people moaning about a march :rolleyes:

gutteruu

Grayson wrote: »

No I didn't. I just said to the guy, that he appears to be assuming that €100 isn't worth that much to others.

I didn't get my point across properly. What I am trying to say is all we ever hear about are the "small" taxes because they are direct. You must hand cash back for the household charge. Whilst everyone is moaning, VAT goes up, so you pay 2% on every single thing you buy costing you $hit loads more than any household charge, but not a word. Car Tax goes up, tax on salaries doubles etc etc etc.

Because everyone is 'distracted' by the (small in comparison) direct charge, everyone is getting fleeced with massive indirect taxes on everything else. But the real problem is being drowned out. The VAT increase costs a single person on the dole €195 per year! There was no anti-VAT increase marches! Maternity Benefit is now being taxed at 41%, again, no marches! Universal Social charge skyrockets, again, no marches!

stoneill

there must be a word for anti-anti-austerity.
Antidisausteritymentism?

Anynama141

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's a very broad generalisation. Parents of special-needs children might disagree with that, especially if they're already dealing with financial strain as a lot of people are.

I personally don't earn a lot of money and have had to pay a lot more tax. I think this is unfair as I'm not responsible for the problems I'm paying for, and I think it's even more unfair that people a lot worse off than me have to suffer. This is especially galling because politicians and many high-level bank officials receive disproportionately high salaries.

If anything, I think people in Ireland should protest more, including myself.

Where do you see all the extra money that you want to see the government spending coming from?

We could borrow more, sending our national debt further into the stratosphere - except nobody will lend to us if we tell the Troika to F-off.

We could tax more, perhaps? But that would kill business and drive out capital, killing jobs.

We could beg for more money from Europe, given to us on a charity basis - but presumably they want to spend that money on their own roads and hospitals and schools.

So what is the solution that you want to see the Irish government implement?

Anynama141

St.Spodo wrote: »

You see, money is getting transferred from social services to banks and as a result, the quality of life for many people has declined significantly. These people are not responsible for the financial mess, and thus feel aggrieved at having to pay for it. If you're annoyed by anti-austerity marches, I'd suggest you ought to be thankful you're not in financial difficulty.

Could you outline all the cuts to pensions and social welfare that the current government has brought in?

lightspeed

El Spearo wrote: »

thats great, but you realise 'we have it hard' because of previous groups of politicians too?

plus we don't have it hard. we just don't have it as easy as some people would like.

we, the irish people, need to get over ourselves.

According to a survey done last year by the Irish League Of Credit Unions, 1.3 million people have less than €50 after paying for bills. So what evidence have you gathered that proves that "we" dont have it hard?

It seems that you dont have it hard and arrogantly assume that those protesting are just there looking for attention but actually living fine.

Even if the majority there dont have it hard, why should they be ableto protest against austerity.

Where is the scientific evidence to suggest that austerity is a viable solution to an economic downturn?

Considering the same people who put together our austerity programme have come out saying that its a failed policy, why should people not be protesting?

Should we just continue to accept failed policies that have never been proven to work because we have such a consistent history of doing so in the past?


http://www.thejournal.ie/whats-left-over-1-million-adults-have-less-than-e50-after-bills-418778-Apr2012/

Anynama141

lightspeed wrote: »

According to a survey done last year by the Irish League Of Credit Unions, 1.3 million people have less than €50 after paying for bills. So what evidence have you gathered that proves that "we" dont have it hard?

It depends on what those bills are for, doesn't it? Never mind the third world - the Ireland of the 80s would probably be laughing if they had money left over after paying for all their essential bills, their broadband, their satellite TV, luxury food items, foreign holidays and so forth.

Or are we to assume that their methodology excludes luxuries? I tried to find out but their information is (deliberately?) opaque.

lightspeed wrote: »

Where is the scientific evidence to suggest that austerity is a viable solution to an economic downturn?

Considering the same people who put together our austerity programme have come out saying that its a failed policy, why should people not be protesting?

What alternative solution do you propose that the Irish government implement? Presumably if you are proposing a protest, you have an alternative solution that the Irish government should put in place?

A Primal Nut

Borrowing billions every year is not austerity. Or anything close to it. And it annoys me how the "anti-austerity" brigade think its ok to burden future generations with more and more debt.

The King of Moo

Anynama141 wrote: »

Where do you see all the extra money that you want to see the government spending coming from?

We could borrow more, sending our national debt further into the stratosphere - except nobody will lend to us if we tell the Troika to F-off.

We could tax more, perhaps? But that would kill business and drive out capital, killing jobs.

We could beg for more money from Europe, given to us on a charity basis - but presumably they want to spend that money on their own roads and hospitals and schools.

So what is the solution that you want to see the Irish government implement?

For a start: means-testing child benefit so those who don't need it don't get it, collecting unpaid tolls instead of writing them off, vastly reducing government salaries and doing away with expense allowances for a while until things are much better, reducing foreign aid to a reasonable extent, and increase tax for higher earners. If this latter might affect business, then the government should try to find some solution to that problem, instead of making cuts in areas which won't affect our business competitiveness, regardless of what happens to those affected by the cuts.

This overall is the problem for me. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it's frustrating when you see the experts clearly not using their imagination and trying to find the solution which causes the least amount of suffering for the people they serve, instead of making the easy cuts and placing maintaining a system which is far from perfect.
We've heard so much about "the only game in town" but it's clear that we could have been, and could be doing things differently. We've already missed the boat by bailing out the banks and paying the bondholders, and one of the architects of our bailout has said that austerity has been unfair and could've been less harsh.
I don't propose a radical alternative to capitalism or austerity, as I said before, but I want our leaders (this applies to Fianna Fáil more than Fine Gael as obviously the latter have had their hands tied to some extent) to actually think carefully about how to best serve their people, instead of quickly agreeing to measures designed to maintain the economic system without thinking or caring about how that burden is shared.

Anynama141

The King of Moo wrote: »

For a start: means-testing child benefit so those who don't need it don't get it, collecting unpaid tolls instead of writing them off, vastly reducing government salaries and doing away with expense allowances for a while until things are much better, reducing foreign aid to a reasonable extent

None of that is unreasonable - but how much do you think it would raise? €100 million? €200 million? A lot of money to you and me, but a drop in the ocean compared to the €10,000,000,000 odd that we need to cut (and even after that cut, we'll still be borrowing billions).

A point on the child benefit - means testing costs a lot of money, perhaps as much as the savings you would make, so the net savings would be much smaller or even non-existent. This, I believe, was the main reason means testing was not introduced.

We are still about €10 billion of revenue short of ending 'austerity'.

The King of Moo wrote: »

and increase tax for higher earners. If this latter might affect business, then the government should try to find some solution to that problem, instead of making cuts in areas which won't affect our business competitiveness, regardless of what happens to those affected by the cuts.

I'm not sure what solution there is - an appeal to their patriotism, perhaps? If you tax skilled people, they will move. And the companies that rely on them will move.

The King of Moo wrote: »

This overall is the problem for me. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it's frustrating when you see the experts clearly not using their imagination and trying to find the solution which causes the least amount of suffering for the people they serve, instead of making the easy cuts and placing maintaining a system which is far from perfect.

Agreed, but it's largely a case of 'optics'. The suggestions you make above, while they would save some small amount of money and probably have broad support, would only represent a tinkering around the edges of the problem. And any organisation only has so much energy and time to actually try to do work - the more of management attention (read: government attention) that is diverted to the optics, the less will be put into the meat of the problem. Unfortunately, the public's attention is easily and often drawn to the optics rather than the real issues, and that's what the government is usually judged on. Remember Bertie's high ratings as he hollowed out the economy and indulged in give-away budgets based on unsustainable property transaction taxes?

The King of Moo wrote: »

We've heard so much about "the only game in town" but it's clear that we could have been, and could be doing things differently. We've already missed the boat by bailing out the banks and paying the bondholders, and one of the architects of our bailout has said that austerity has been unfair and could've been less harsh.

You are right about the bailouts - I always thought the banks should be allowed collapse, but I also understood that this would have meant economic chaos here (not the current phoney war) for a couple of years. But the banks can't be 'un-bailed out', that money is gone, as you say.

The King of Moo wrote: »

I don't propose a radical alternative to capitalism or austerity, as I said before, but I want our leaders (this applies to Fianna Fáil more than Fine Gael as obviously the latter have had their hands tied to some extent) to actually think carefully about how to best serve their people, instead of quickly agreeing to measures designed to maintain the economic system without thinking or caring about how that burden is shared.

I'm pretty sure they are doing that. The problem is that the public has no idea of the depth of the sh!t that we are in - I genuinely believe that they thought that throwing out Fianna Failure would end our national bankruptcy, and now they are astonished that we are still up sh!t creek.

Mr.David

Mr.David wrote: »

They have taken pay cuts. They could take more perhaps but why should they? FF caused this mess, FG are trying to get us out of it.

Also remember that running the country is the most important job in the whole country, and the salaries should reflect that.

There is heads of semi state companies earning 3 if not 4 fold more then what Barack Obama is earning and thats before we get to the politicians salaries

What I don't understand is why there's still people from the EU-15 coming here to work. I mean I assume that Germany and France are much better to live in with higher wages and better lifestyle etc. so why would any come here?

schnitzelEater

It does generally seem to be those who are net beneficiaries of state money that are the most vociferous protestors.

Most of us are keeping our noses down and getting on with paying the taxes that allow the government to continue paying the public sector, social welfare, health service, pensions etc.

MMAGirl

I dont believe that survey about 1.3 million people having no more than €50 left a month after bills.
That means that 1 out of every 3.5 people you know only has €50 left.
Now I know a lot of people, including a lot of career dole takers and know NOBODY who only has €50 left at the end of the month - assuming you take numerous visits to the pub out of the equation.

Sorry, doesnt wash.
Kind of invalidates any other survey these guys do.

schnitzelEater

20Cent wrote: »

People are killed, jailed and tortured around the world looking for the right to have their voices heard. Meanwhile in Ireland we have people moaning about a march :rolleyes:

Do you think the moaners should be killed / jailed or tortured?

Ironic is ironic.

schnitzelEater

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont believe that survey about 1.3 million people having no more than €50 left a month after bills.
That means that 1 out of every 3.5 people you know only has €50 left.
Now I know a lot of people, including a lot of career dole takers and know NOBODY who only has €50 left at the end of the month - assuming you take numerous visits to the pub out of the equation.

Sorry, doesnt wash.
Kind of invalidates any other survey these guys do.

Agreed, I'd be very sceptical of these surveys. I suspect there is a tendency for participants to not want to appear to be doing well for whatever reason. The reverse of the Celtic tiger if you will.

If someone can afford to smoke 10 or more a day then they are not poor, or their priorities are completely wrong and and they are choosing to waste their money on cigarettes.

Aidric

Grayson wrote: »

Kinda like telling a starving kid not to whinge about the gruel that was just spilled

Gruel being mentioned to make a point. Right, this thread has lost all hope.

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Borrowing billions every year is not austerity. Or anything close to it. And it annoys me how the "anti-austerity" brigade think its ok to burden future generations with more and more debt.

Unfortunately, the current financial model is absolutely and totally dependent on debt to function along with infinite growth to "service" the debts.

As we currently have near zero growth, near zero interest rates and low inflation (despite the banks best efforts to blow "bubbles"), I'd say the system is broke!

Without inflation, those debts will forever remain huge relative to income.

joe swanson

Im not against anti austerity. Im against the sort of people it attracts. The usual rent a mob organised by the same spongers afraid of losing their dole. Maybe if there was a genuine movement....