Does Anti-austeriry really annoy anyone else?

Mr.David

The King of Moo wrote: »

I don't propose a radical alternative to austerity measures, simply a more equitable distribution of the burden.


And I do object to people making blanket statements about no-one in Ireland suffering simply because they themselves don't have to go to soup kitchens to get food.

In terms of the distribution of the burden, how is it distributed in your opinion? Are you aware that the top 0.5% of earners in Ireland pay almost 18% of total income tax? And the top 20% of earners (those earning more than about 55k) pay 71% of total tax collected by the revenue.

I for one (and I know I will get slated for this) feel the distribution of the burden is indeed unfair, the entire tax system is unfair. Why not have a system whereby everyone pays the same flat rate of tax? Then, by design, if person A earns twice as much as person B he will pay twice as much tax (as opposed to ten times as much).

Our system crucifies high earners, whereas those earning below average in Ireland pay practically no tax.

KyussBishop

IM0 wrote: »

heres a wake up call for you, banks are private entities and its a private entities JOB to make money, they did nothing wrong, but the people who bought stuff they couldnt afford did everything wrong

They are not allowed to commit fraud and breach regulations (i.e. laws) in seeking out profits, and none of them have been held accountable for doing exactly this; do you think that (a two-tier justice system, with some immune to the law) is worth protesting about?

El Inho

Personally I think a lot of the anti-austerity protesters have gone to the point of wearing tin foil hats.

I trust what ever is being done has to be done for the greater good.

mikom

El Spearo wrote: »

I trust what ever is being done has to be done for the greater good.

Musssstttt resistttt godwinning thread................

KyussBishop

IM0 wrote: »

all that ****e Im guessing you heard from socialist party ect on tv debates and similar rubbish in the media whoich is no doubt back and biast in favour of that agenda too, they like you it seems have no notion of economics or capatalism and other things

Again the usual condescending garbage thrown out, at anyone who takes issue; you don't have a monopoly on economic knowledge/authority, and economics as it is taught today has zero credibility left after the crisis, because it failed to spot something as blindingly obvious as 'private debt vs GDP'.

I base my own economic views, on some of the few people to both predict and model the crisis in advance, and others who are experts at deconstructing the flaws in current mainstream economics.

The current mainstream/neoclassical economic school, is more like an anti-empirical belief system or religion, than a science, so when your standard of comparison is a fatally flawed belief system, out of touch with reality, then condescending towards people for not following that belief system is not a valid criticism, and more betrays your own ignorance of mainstream economics flaws.

El Inho

mikom wrote: »

Musssstttt resistttt godwinning thread................

Care to elaborate?

mikom

El Spearo wrote: »

I trust what ever is being done has to be done for the greater good.

mikom wrote: »

Musssstttt resistttt godwinning thread................

El Spearo wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

IM0

KyussBishop wrote: »

They are not allowed to commit fraud and breach regulations (i.e. laws) in seeking out profits, and none of them have been held accountable for doing exactly this; do you think that (a two-tier justice system, with some immune to the law) is worth protesting about?

what regulation did they breach. solid hard sources to said regulation please from the official site on it

or gtfo

IM0

KyussBishop wrote: »

Again the usual condescending garbage thrown out, at anyone who takes issue; you don't have a monopoly on economic knowledge/authority, and economics as it is taught today has zero credibility left after the crisis, because it failed to spot something as blindingly obvious as 'private debt vs GDP'.

I base my own economic views, on some of the few people to both predict and model the crisis in advance, and others who are experts at deconstructing the flaws in current mainstream economics.

The current mainstream/neoclassical economic school, is more like an anti-empirical belief system or religion, than a science, so when your standard of comparison is a fatally flawed belief system, out of touch with reality, then condescending towards people for not following that belief system is not a valid criticism, and more betrays your own ignorance of mainstream economics flaws.

its the best system we have whats your alternative? if you have said it already apologies, im sure I read it but chances are it was too full of naivety to warrant a reply in AH or the scope needed for me to get across to you would not be worth my time and effort, I learned the hard way I suggest you do the same

KyussBishop

IM0 wrote: »

the regulation did they breach. solid hard sources to said regulation please from the official site on it

This guy worked in one of the fraudulent financial institutions, witnessing it first hand and blowing the whistle:
http://whistleblowerirl.blogspot.ie/

Even upon going to financial regulators, was himself threatened with being prosecuted if he disclosed to them any wrongdoing (making pretty clear the regulators interest in protecting fraud/criminality, rather than prosecuting it).

Here's a US regulator, who helped put thousands of people away during the 'Savings and Loans' crisis in the US decades ago; an expert on fraud and financial criminology, giving his analysis of Ireland, and how our crisis has all the hallmarks of systemic fraud:
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2011/06/control-fraud-and-irish-banking-crisis.html

You already thus far, act as an apologist for banks and financial institutions, saying they have no responsibilities beyond profits, even when you know that sociopathically meant pumping a property bubble they knew would lead to significant societal suffering; next up, denial of fraud and criminality.

IM0

KyussBishop wrote: »

This guy worked in one of the fraudulent financial institutions, witnessing it first hand and blowing the whistle:
http://whistleblowerirl.blogspot.ie/

Even upon going to financial regulators, was himself threatened with being prosecuted if he disclosed to them any wrongdoing (making pretty clear the regulators interest in protecting fraud/criminality, rather than prosecuting it).

Here's a US regulator, who helped put thousands of people away during the 'Savings and Loans' crisis in the US decades ago; an expert on fraud and financial criminology, giving his analysis of Ireland, and how our crisis has all the hallmarks of systemic fraud:
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2011/06/control-fraud-and-irish-banking-crisis.html

You already thus far, act as an apologist for banks and financial institutions, saying they have no responsibilities beyond profits, even when you know that sociopathically meant pumping a property bubble they knew would lead to significant societal suffering; next up, denial of fraud and criminality.

in fairness thats a blog could be father christmas or christ himself for all we know, I said link to the regulation broken not a blog that anyone could have written while casting themselves off as whoever they want you to believe they are

your arguement is dying on its arse here

KyussBishop

IM0 wrote: »

its the best system we have whats your alternative? if you have said it already apologies, im sure I read it but chances are it was to full of naivety to warrant a reply in AH or the scope need for me to get across to you would not be worth my time and effort, I learned the hard way I suggest you do the same

You don't even deny its flaws here, that it is divorced from reality, yet you still defend use of it to condescend against alternatives; using economics you show that you know is flawed, to compare against alternatives, and pan alternatives for not containing the same flaws; like an astrologist panning Newton's theories, because they don't contain the same flaws as astrology.

You've already dismissed any possible alternatives as 'naive' here; the usual condescending bollocks that tries to pre-emptively say "everything not matching my pet theory is wrong", so you've already shown a complete lack of interest in any alternatives, and that any feigned implication that you would actually engage in honest debate on them, is simply dishonest.

El Inho

mikom wrote: »

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

Oh yeah I've heard of that alright....don't see the relevance. Unless you're stooping to the level of comparing Ireland to the Third Reich.

KyussBishop

IM0 wrote: »

in fairness thats a blog could be father christmas or christ himself for all we know, I said link to the regulation broken not a blog that anyone could have written while casting themselves off as whoever they want you to believe they are

Yes as expected, zero interest in actually reading or investigating anything yourself, only in panning stuff; takes you two seconds to read the header on that blog, and to google a quote or two as verification.

You don't have an interest in whether or not fraud or criminality actually happened, only in denial.

EDIT: You don't even need to Google quotes actually, because they are linked right there in the header of the blog; totally lazy in not even bothering to verify that, instead wanting me to do legwork, so you can just pan everything presented.

Joshua J

KyussBishop wrote: »

You already thus far, act as an apologist for banks and financial institutions, saying they have no responsibilities beyond profits, even when you know that sociopathically meant pumping a property bubble they knew would lead to significant societal suffering; next up, denial of fraud and criminality.

I've diagnosed a new condition called Stephenitis, inspired by Samuel L Jacksons character in Django. He spends his life subserviant to a cruel and evil master yet once he becomes free is inconsolable with grief.

This country has no stomach for change, too many sycophants with Stockholm symdrom. Anyone who dares try is shouted down. Leave them at it, the house of cards is falling around them and they're scared.

IM0

KyussBishop wrote: »

You don't even deny its flaws here, that it is divorced from reality, yet you still defend use of it to condescend against alternatives; using economics you show that you know is flawed, to compare against alternatives, and pan alternatives for not containing the same flaws; like an astrologist panning Newton's theories, because they don't contain the same flaws as astrology.

You've already dismissed any possible alternatives as 'naive' here; the usual condescending bollocks that tries to pre-emptively say "everything not matching my pet theory is wrong", so you've already shown a complete lack of interest in any alternatives, and that any feigned implication that you would actually engage in honest debate on them, is simply dishonest.

there is debate and there is banging your head off a wall, its a bit like a price negotiation. say someone wants to be paid 7000 for something, but the other person starts off the bid at 1000, there is no scope for a negotiation he needs to come in at at least 3000 or there is no scope for negotiation, its just simply dead in the water they are too far apart and the casm that needs to be filled is too wide for it to end well. thats where we're at

IM0

KyussBishop wrote: »

Yes as expected, zero interest in actually reading or investigating anything yourself, only in panning stuff; takes you two seconds to read the header on that blog, and to google a quote or two as verification.

You don't have an interest in whether or not fraud or criminality actually happened, only in denial.

EDIT: You don't even need to Google quotes actually, because they are linked right there in the header of the blog; totally lazy in not even bothering to verify that, instead wanting me to do legwork, so you can just pan everything presented.

stop putting words in my mouth please. there was a time when the kind of things you and others say I had some similar views on, but then I informed myself and changed my opinion. its not about knowing x y or z either and more about knowing when you are being played by vested interests [with political agendas usually] among other things which Im not even going to get into. but which include life experience, being streetwise ect

KyussBishop

IM0 wrote: »

there is debate and there is banging your head off a wall, its a bit like a price negotiation. say someone wants to be paid 7000 for something, but the other person starts off the bid at 1000, there is no scope for a negotiation he needs to come in at at least 3000 or there is no scope for negotiation, its just simply dead in the water they are too far apart and the casm that needs to be filled is too wide for it to end well. thats where we're at

If you're not going to back up the claims, which you base your dismissals and condescension on, then at least have the honesty to make clear, you're not even interested in debate, just in dismissal/condescension.

Davy r

I sense a troll thread. One answer for you dont mention politics in this country unless you want a migrane

IM0

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you're not going to back up the claims, which you base your dismissals and condescension on, then at least have the honesty to make clear, you're not even interested in debate, just in dismissal/condescension.

believe me I know everything Ive written someone will take to be condascending. if you can come up with an alternative that is water tight, then Ill take it and possibly convert but I doubt that is going to happen without it coming across as having alot of holes in it which I have no desire to fill to go out of my way to convince a username on the net that they are out of their depth and [condascention alert ] naive!

Fr_Dougal

Davy r wrote: »

I sense a troll thread. One answer for you dont mention politics in this country unless you want a migrane

Generally you'll find that threads like this are started by people who are still in school and are living at home protected from the real world by mammy and daddy.

Frank Black

Most of the people who don't want cuts in services are the same people protesting against paying more taxes like the property tax. They offer no realistic alternatives to the budget deficit other than some vague notions about burning bondholders or taxing 'the rich'.
They're either wilfully ignorant or hopelessly deluded.

It must be nice. I envy them sometimes.

El Inho

I'm still in college but I feel the hardship as much as anyone. 25 yo with extremely limited employability looking possibly at leaving the country. So I won't sit back and be told im oblivious because I'm a student.

If the country is that banjaxed why don't you all bugger off to another country and leave the ones who actually respect the government here. I'd give anything to stay here. Things aren't perfect but why the bloody hell are we complaining.

I bet half the people who complain spend a fortune on smoking while updating their anti austerity acts on facebook with top of range phones.

El Spearo

El Spearo wrote: »

I'm still in college but I feel the hardship as much as anyone. 25 yo with extremely limited employability looking possibly at leaving the country. So I won't sit back and be told im oblivious because I'm a student.

If the country is that banjaxed why don't you all bugger off to another country and leave the ones who actually respect the government here. I'd give anything to stay here. Things aren't perfect but why the bloody hell are we complaining.

I bet half the people who complain spend a fortune on smoking while updating their anti austerity acts on facebook with top of range phones.

While I don't necessarily respect the government, I fully intend seeing out my days in Ireland. It is still a great place to live. Yes we are going through tough times, but it's not the first nor last time that'll happen. None of us has the right to dictate how others spend their money. We can only hope they spend it wisely. Same goes for our democratically elected representatives. They don't do everything right, but equally, they are not doing everything wrong. They are doing their best.

El Inho

I would never tell anyone how to spend their money, but i do think that rather than complain people can just quiet up and reevaluate.

We dont have the same kind of money we used to, so adjust. Boom, problem solved.

Wicklowrider

5000 people attend a legitimate protest.

They expressed an opinion by getting out and marching.

That is how it works in a democracy.

You don't like their opinion so you hit the keyboard to moan about them moaning and 19 people hit the thanks button. BTW - leave the "We" out of it. You don't speak for me nor anyone I know.

Pumpkinseeds

I'm really tired of seeing posters everywhere advertising protests about austerity measures. I don't like being hit with these extra charges or having less money in my pocket any more than anyone else does. But I'm sick and tired of hearing other people going on ad nauseum about not paying the charges.
We have only one income coming in to our house but we get hit for most things. We don't have kids or a council house or RAS and there are plenty of people in this country living in council housing or getting RAS who have never done a days work and who have a higher income per month on benefit and childrens allowance than we do, who are getting off a lot lighter than we are.

I've seen a guy organising marches against it locally,including the paddy's day parade. The guy is a cab driver/odd job man,so most of his income is undeclared I'm guessing. Yet he'd bore the ass off you banging on and on about how he hasn't paid it. Pay or don't pay but ffs just let it go and stop banging on about it. These measures are here to stay.

El Inho

Wicklowrider wrote: »

5000 people attend a legitimate protest.

They expressed an opinion by getting out and marching.

That is how it works in a democracy.

You don't like their opinion so you hit the keyboard to moan about them moaning and 19 people hit the thanks button. BTW - leave the "We" out of it. You don't speak for me nor anyone I know.

5000 people. Fair play to them. And I'm all for free speech. I'm just saying that they are annoying how they come along and ruin stuff. Paddys day - a day of celebration and sure enough here they come in the parade. A joke. Take your day off lads!

The highlighted part.

We have democratically voted for our government. So I would rather be quiet and let them do their job. You are included in this we unless you spoiled your vote.

NIMAN

afaik there is no option to 'Not Pay' the property tax. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong.

But from reading about it, Revenue will just take it out of your salary, pension or social security payments if you don't pay it upfront yourself.

El Spearo

El Spearo wrote: »

No, nobody does. But I do understand that it is my responsibility to pay taxes. Just like it is in every country.

It's clear nobody likes taxes, but by god they love complaining about them.

Taking a hit is one thing but taking a hit for the mistakes of others who borrowed in the billions is a whole other. If we are not whingeing about lack of protest in this country we are whingeing when people actually get up off their arse and protest.
Id have no problem sharing the blame and paying dues only we all know a certain sector of society is mostly responsible for the billions we owe. On top of that we were entered into an illegal bank guarantee without our consent.

That said i do agree though that if we are continuing to vote in the losers and morons, well then we cant really complain so from the respect that FF are gaining in popularity again then yes i see your point.