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Does Anti-austeriry really annoy anyone else?

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    #92
    El Inho
    Registered Users Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭El Inho


    The annoying thing is FF caused most of these problems. The FG try to fix it and because they didn't perform miracles theres a good chance FF are going to be back again. Thats why all this annoys me so much.

    Out marching instead of supporting. If people really looked at the bigger picture they would realise we are slowly turning the ship around.


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    #93
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    People are not protesting, because there is nothing to protest about! We are in deep doodoo and the only way out of it is to tighten our belts and sit it out. Banging on about banks and politicians huge salaries will get us no where. I won't go so far as to say they deserve every cent, but would you do it for any less? The majority of people are just getting on with things, same as we always did. We're not alone in this recession. It's worldwide. A bit of realism is all thats needed. We WILL get through this and be the stronger for it.

    Bertie is still getting expenses from the taxpayer. The man is a crook.
    This is something to be outraged about. He doesn't work for us anymore. Why are we paying him "expenses"? He shouldn't be getting one miserable cent above his already insane pension rights.

    Why NOT protest about this? Are you actually ok with it? It has nothing to do with the recession, it's simply injustice. And injustice is always something worth fighting against.


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    #94
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    gutteruu wrote: »
    People spend most of the time moaning about politicians salaries/pensions which add up to about 15 million. While the bailout cost about 80 Billion. Do they make to much, of course they do. but its so unbelievable miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Somehow people think cutting politicians wages will fix everything.

    Try it. Put them on minimum wage and see how honest they become then. See how beyond reproach they become. Ask Haughey, Burke, Lawlor and the boys did they feel good about their normal salary back then.

    I never said it would fix anything, I never said it would change them as people. Why should it have to? It would be justice in and of itself. Isn't that a good enough end to be looking for? Justice. A fair society.

    If the disabled and their carers have to lose money because of the wrongdoing of politicians, those politicians should also lose. Fair is fair. It doesn't have to fix anything or change anything, it would still be justice. Jailing a murderer doesn't bring back their victim, but it's still justice, and it's still worth pushing for.


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    #95
    Wicklowrider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭Wicklowrider


    El Spearo wrote: »

    We have democratically voted for our government. So I would rather be quiet and let them do their job. You are included in this we unless you spoiled your vote.
    You be a quiet as you wish.
    Others aren't satisfied with the governments performance and luckily for them you don't get to silence them. You have a very loose understanding on democracy - free speech is still a cornerstone.


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    #96
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Fattes wrote: »
    You are making a lot of assumptions in that last sentence I made no statment or wording that could possibly lead anyone to assume my position on it so keep your opinions to your posts.

    Our states biggest expenditure items are Social Welfare, Health Service, and Public Service pay, the bank bailout and political pay are not our biggest budgetary issue.

    FACEPALM

    I never SAID they were a budgetary issue at all, I said they were UNJUST. I don't want to live in an unjust society so I will protest against injustices. I don't *care* if changing those injustices will actually solve any problems, it's a moral issue. It's about what kind of country you want to live in. By suggesting that you don't want to fight against it, you are basically either saying that you're ok with injustice or that you simply don't care enough to be anything other than passive about it - which in my view is every bit as bad.


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    #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    El Spearo wrote: »
    The annoying thing is FF caused most of these problems. The FG try to fix it and because they didn't perform miracles theres a good chance FF are going to be back again. Thats why all this annoys me so much.

    Out marching instead of supporting. If people really looked at the bigger picture they would realise we are slowly turning the ship around.


    You have a point there but in fairness we were at the mercy of the EU/Troika bureaucrats and our leaders handled them with kid gloves instead of fighting for our own interest. That said they have probably changed the perception of us amongst the EU/World leaders. They definitely have alot more respect for us with this regime whilst they were sick of the sight of us at the latter days of the last regime.

    The downside i would have to FG is whether they will have the same pull in terms of seeking and attracting investment? Will they be too cagey in terms of treading the water? They dont seem to be anyway urgent in terms of addressing the brain drain or emigration and i would wonder has the whole 'jobs for the boys' culture really changed in Ireland?


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    #98
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    El Spearo wrote: »
    The annoying thing is FF caused most of these problems. The FG try to fix it and because they didn't perform miracles theres a good chance FF are going to be back again. Thats why all this annoys me so much.

    Nobody is expecting miracles from FG but it wouldn't go astray if they had a little empathy for the nation and the hole that many, many people find themselves in instead of having nothing more contempt for the hands that feed into their pockets and bank accounts. This country was run by FF on a hidden policy of greed and FG have adopted the very same attitude of only looking out for themselves and their pockets.

    The recession has effected so many people in so many ways and one thing many people have in common is reduced incomes, rising costs and increased outgoings. FG has shielded and protected themselves from what many people have to face and deal with.


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    #99
    Mr.David
    Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    FACEPALM

    I never SAID they were a budgetary issue at all, I said they were UNJUST. I don't want to live in an unjust society so I will protest against injustices. I don't *care* if changing those injustices will actually solve any problems, it's a moral issue. It's about what kind of country you want to live in. By suggesting that you don't want to fight against it, you are basically either saying that you're ok with injustice or that you simply don't care enough to be anything other than passive about it - which in my view is every bit as bad.

    You've said UNJUST a lot of times in your post.....what exactly are you referring to?! Please don't say the injustices.


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    #100
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    Nobody is expecting miracles from FG but it wouldn't go astray if they had a little empathy for the nation and the hole that many, many people find themselves in instead of having nothing more contempt for the hands that feed into their pockets and bank accounts. This country was run by FF on a hidden policy of greed and FG have adopted the very same attitude of only looking out for themselves and their pockets.

    The recession has effected so many people in so many ways and one thing many people have in common is reduced incomes, rising costs and increased outgoings. FG has shielded and protected themselves from what many people have to face and deal with.

    by doing what exactly?


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    #101
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    Mr.David wrote: »
    You've said UNJUST a lot of times in your post.....what exactly are you referring to?! Please don't say the injustices.

    :pac:


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    #102
    Mr.David
    Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Taking a hit is one thing but taking a hit for the mistakes of others who borrowed in the billions is a whole other.

    Who do you think it was that did all the borrowing?! It was us, the general public. Yes it was a bubble propagated by the government and I am not suggesting that it is the fault of those who took all the loans (mortgages). So who exactly are you referring to? Is it the bondholders? Presumably not, given that they are the lenders not the borrowers?


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    #103
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Mr.David wrote: »
    You've said UNJUST a lot of times in your post.....what exactly are you referring to?! Please don't say the injustices.

    Read my three posts on this page. Bertie still getting expenses. Ministers personally overriding salary caps to give old colleagues nice pay rises. Bailed out bankers being paid outrageous bonuses straight from the exchequer. Politicians and others in high places having penalty points erased. The directors of NAMA being paid six figures. The Moriarty Tribunal naming and shaming people responsible for corruption - but not one of them actually being punished by law for this corruption. The Golden Circle still walking the streets freely instead of standing in front of a judge and being asked to explain their illegal transactions. The taxpayer paying for these people's actions without a single one of them being held accountable for it.

    I could go on, and on, and on...

    This entire financial crisis is absolutely laced with injustice. Depending on your social status, you are treated more or less favourably by the government, law enforcement, the legal system, etc.
    It's disgusting.


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    #104
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    IM0 wrote: »
    heres a wake up call for you

    You're so out of your depth. It's funny to observe you getting your ass handed to you but thinking you've got something of value to say.

    Stop embarrassing yourself.


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    #105
    G Power
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭G Power


    it bothers us enough to shut down the streets again after the main protest was all over and without garda interference as they eventually just left us at it and even gave us an escort in the end, correct me if i'm wrong but if a small group of people shut down the 3 lanes of traffic as they march up and down the quays and back onto o connell st that the garda might have got orders to sort the 30 of us out and get traffic moving but those orders never came and no traffic passed us until we were ready to stop protesting, a definite show of solidarity with us if ever i seen one and about time too

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupyncd?fb_action_ids=295468350584040&fb_action_types=ustream_og%3Acomment&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582


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    #106
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    IM0 wrote: »
    by doing what exactly?

    They have shieled and protected themselves by
    - continuing with their current pay and conditions. A leader in one of the PIIGS countries gave up her income as a mark of respect to her people and the austerity their country is going under. Nobody is expecting the government to drop their incomes to nothing but taking a pay cut, wouldn't go astray.

    - Political reform.
    This is something that needs to happen but it's not happening. Look to the uk, members of their government are not invisible to the law where as our crowd can cheat millions and millions in tax and turn around give up half his wage to revenue as payback, just to turn around and claim an expense package boosting up his wage.

    - allowed to claim multiple pensions from multiple posts. Where as many who are of pensioner age or nearing it, who paid into a private pension pot, has seen their pensions wiped out.


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    #107
    Mr.David
    Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Read my three posts on this page. Bertie still getting expenses. Ministers personally overriding salary caps to give old colleagues nice pay rises. Bailed out bankers being paid outrageous bonuses straight from the exchequer. Politicians and others in high places having penalty points erased. The directors of NAMA being paid six figures. The Moriarty Tribunal naming and shaming people responsible for corruption - but not one of them actually being punished by law for this corruption. The Golden Circle still walking the streets freely instead of standing in front of a judge and being asked to explain their illegal transactions. The taxpayer paying for these people's actions without a single one of them being held accountable for it.

    I could go on, and on, and on...

    This entire financial crisis is absolutely laced with injustice. Depending on your social status, you are treated more or less favourably by the government, law enforcement, the legal system, etc.
    It's disgusting.

    I do agree with a lot of your sentiment, but at the same time I think some of those issues are more complicated:

    Bertie - a crook, I wouldnt dispute that, but unless I'm mistaken he was found by the tribunal to have failed to account for certain transactions but was not found guilty outright? Again, I agree the guy is a cowboy but if he is not legally found to have broken the law.....

    Nama - a hugely important job, why shouldnt they be paid six figure salaries? The success of Nama in maximising the revenue generated by offloading its assets (or liabilities depending on your perspective!) has a huge influence on the country as a whole. I want capable people at the top, and that requires large salaries. The salaries are a drop in the ocean compared to the task at hand

    On the lack of anyone being punished, again I agree with the sentiment but I think Ireland is fairly representative of most nations in its failure to prosecute those responsible. Its extremely difficult to find someone culpable in a legal sense afaik.

    Whilst the whole affair is undoubtedly a shambles I do believe that FG are doing a reasonable job of steering the country towards recovery. I think the biggest unknown is Europe as a whole now as opposed to our own affairs.


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    #108
    Mr.David
    Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    They have shieled and protected themselves by
    - continuing with their current pay and conditions. Nobody is expecting the government to drop their incomes to nothing but taking a pay cut, wouldn't go astray.

    They have taken pay cuts. They could take more perhaps but why should they? FF caused this mess, FG are trying to get us out of it.

    Also remember that running the country is the most important job in the whole country, and the salaries should reflect that.


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    #109
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    What is austeriry? It sounds like some kind of a dessert.


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    #110
    armchair fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭armchair fusilier


    Mr.David wrote: »
    They have taken pay cuts. They could take more perhaps but why should they? FF caused this mess, FG are trying to get us out of it.

    Also remember that running the country is the most important job in the whole country, and the salaries should reflect that.

    The salaries should also reflect the fact that the country in question has a population of just 4.5 million.


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    #111
    blow69
    Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭blow69


    El Spearo wrote: »
    5000 people. Fair play to them. And I'm all for free speech. I'm just saying that they are annoying how they come along and ruin stuff. Paddys day - a day of celebration and sure enough here they come in the parade. A joke. Take your day off lads!


    Just to add something else to the whole Patrick's Day celebrations - clearly a lot of people aren't feeling the pinch from austerity if each year they are able to afford drinking from midday to 2 a.m.


    Our standard of living shot up very quickly during the boom. Too quickly. It was not sustainable.
    We had budget surpluses which we were able to put back into social programs and essential services although even these were run ineffectively during this time e.g. health.
    The government awarded the people with tax cuts.

    When we were faced with deficits, expenditure towards these services obviously had to be cut to decrease borrowing and keep in line with a realistic recovery plan. Higher and additional taxes were also implemented.


    Going from one extreme to the other forced a shift in personal wealth and disposable income and obviously when you have a good thing going, you don't want it to end and have to give it back.


    I don't pretend to ignore what it must be like for some people out there. We have all been affected, some more than others. But we need to live realistically.
    And what we had 5-15 years ago wasn't realistic.


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    #112
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Labour will fold/implode and then it will be down this the goverment.

    Then its bye bye Property Tax and also water tax.


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    #113
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Labour will fold/implode and then it will be down this the goverment.

    Then its bye bye Property Tax and also water tax.
    I really hope that doesn't happen because if it does, it'll likely be bye bye Ireland as well.


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    #114
    gutteruu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭gutteruu


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    If the disabled and their carers have to lose money because of the wrongdoing of politicians, those politicians should also lose. Fair is fair. It doesn't have to fix anything or change anything, it would still be justice. Jailing a murderer doesn't bring back their victim, but it's still justice, and it's still worth pushing for.

    I'm sorry and this may sound callous, but my local school has 1 special needs assistant per special needs child! Thats too much! I don't care what view of society you have or how well we are doing, that is absolutely ridiculous. It needed to be cut regardless of any recession.

    I have a friend who gets the carers grant because their child had 2 epilepsy instances in 3 years and lives a perfectly normal life. Ridiculous! Get her out to work and stop paying her a few thousand quid a year for something she cannot stop anyway. She doesn't mind her child more than usual etc. Its a joke.

    These people on the receiving end of amazing freebies for the last decade and it wasn't all the banks fault. Its time to pay for it all.


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    #115
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr.David wrote: »
    Who do you think it was that did all the borrowing?! It was us, the general public. Yes it was a bubble propagated by the government and I am not suggesting that it is the fault of those who took all the loans (mortgages). So who exactly are you referring to? Is it the bondholders? Presumably not, given that they are the lenders not the borrowers?


    The likes of Johnny Ronan and Liam Carroll from the Zoe group or the many loans dished out by certain CEO's on the quiet without any guarantees given or in some cases i believe, not even a shred of paperwork. Some lad bought a half acre swamp in Kildare for example for 14m. Worth 20 times less now but he got the money all too handily without even a guarantee or without putting money up front.


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    #116
    shane9689
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭shane9689


    KyussBishop wrote: »

    That kind of lefty bashing is actually the perfect example of the tribalism: Turn off all braincells and engage in bashing, so other right-wing cohorts can join in, and you can try to 'win' the discussion through social-reinforcement; it's exactly this kind of escape from logical thinking, which allows them to cement their own views in even deeper, through social reinforcement and confirmation bias, and ignoring all criticism.

    the left wing arent much better at times....

    i think we all need to watch "house of cards" on netflix...that's real politics...its all just a power hungery game for the disillusioned masses


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    #117
    gutteruu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭gutteruu


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Labour will fold/implode and then it will be down this the goverment.

    Then its bye bye Property Tax and also water tax.

    My tax almost doubled from 7k to 15,000 quid a year in the past 5 years. Can we please stop moaning and moaning and moaning about 100 quid! FFS!


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    #118
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    gutteruu wrote: »
    My tax almost doubled from 7k to 15,000 quid a year in the past 5 years. Can we please stop moaning and moaning and moaning about 100 quid! FFS!

    You see the multiplication that happened in the past 5 years to your income tax yet you you think 100 quid will remain 100 quid.
    Think about that for a moment.


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    #119
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    IM0 wrote: »
    what regulation did they breach. solid hard sources to said regulation please from the official site on it

    or gtfo

    Anglo. Maple 10. Golden Circle. Seanie's hidden loans. Irish Nationwide.

    You can join those dots together, frankly I'm not going to bother typing out the well known story if it has somehow passed you by. Google the above string and see what kind of God-awful scandals you unearth from 2008/2009.
    People should be rotting in prison for that sh!te. And if it's not illegal, the government should be drafting laws, as a top priority, to make it illegal in any and all future cases.


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    #120
    starviewadams
    Registered Users Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    Yeah,watching the poor being made poorer while the government elite fatten their pension pots while their self entitled friends inexplicably become richer really annoys me.


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    #121
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,377 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Mr.David wrote: »
    They have taken pay cuts. They could take more perhaps but why should they? FF caused this mess, FG are trying to get us out of it.

    Also remember that running the country is the most important job in the whole country, and the salaries should reflect that.

    Yes running the country is important but salaries need to be looked at.

    Kenny is the second highest paid leader in Europe after Angela Merkel, I can see why the German leader would receive this salary but for a country of about 4 million Kenny is paid way too much.


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