Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

9959

kraggy wrote: »

Did you even read my post? I said no, such cases shouldn't and don't have their names changed into Irish. Eg Pedro from Madrid, Pierre from Paris.

Our history is what makes it perfectly acceptable to be called the Irish version of your name IF YOU GO TO A GAELSCOIL.

If you don't like it then you must have no understanding of the place in Irish history that the Irish language has, or you don't understand a fundamental fact of the Gaelscoileanna, that they educate through a language that was in existence before a single English word wad uttered on this isle.

Easy Tiger, it still doesn't justify CHANGING someone's name.

Dan_Solo

kraggy wrote: »

Another captain smart arse who can't read a post properly.

It's the whole basis of the argument. Or did you get so caught up in your crap that you forgot?

So in that case you think anybody with an Irish name should be banned from using it in a non-Gaelscoil?
Don't forget to consider the 1000 years of oppression etc etc when forming your answer.

Dan_Solo

ballsymchugh wrote: »

posting here wasn't doing anything about it, he was told that he should call the school on her behalf.

So when he asked for advice and was told to contact the school, he, in fact, hadn't asked for advice in the first place.
Glad we've cleared that up.

Dan_Solo

kraggy wrote: »

If you don't like it then you must have no understanding of the place in Irish history that the Irish language has

In Irish history.
You said it mate! BAWL!!!:D

ballsymchugh

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So when he asked for advice and was told to contact the school, he, in fact, hadn't asked for advice in the first place.
Glad we've cleared that up.

he didn't ask for advice, he asked for opinions. the logical ones that he didn't agree with just got ignored.

miss no stars

kraggy wrote: »

Now, what do you think someone might have been called prior to the English language being forced on us in Ireland, back when Irish was the main language?

Not John surely?

...
And can people please understand the difference between my example above and someone called Pedro from Madrid coming to Ireland and not having his name changed to Peadar.

What about John whose great-grandparents were all English. Fairly sure John would still be John. Or is it acceptable just because John and his parents were born and raised in Ireland and consider themselves Irish?

What about Steven Stevensen, whose father is Swedish and mother is Irish... Does he get his name translated even though he'd never have been called Stiofan?

Or what about Deborah or Sara, whose family is Irish many generations back but are also Jewish and want her to have a Jewish name?

Where do you draw the line? Do you have people declare that their family were in Ireland prior to Anglicisation of the country? Then translate those children's names?

It's a rubbish argument to say that children "would have" been called something. No they wouldn't - their parents chose their actual name. We're not living in 1413, we're living in 2013. They chose their child's name. If the kid happens to like their Irish translation, and it is actually the corresponding name and not just something close, then fire ahead and use it. But making up names for kids that they might not like for no decent reason at all is just madness.

Dan_Solo

ballsymchugh wrote: »

he didn't ask for advice, he asked for opinions. the logical ones that he didn't agree with just got ignored.

Making even less sense now you are I'm afraid.
So he asked for opinions, and was told he should contact the school, but that wasn't advice, it was an opinion? Which he said he would do and that was ignoring the advice, sorry "opinion"?:rolleyes:

kraggy

miss no stars wrote: »

What about John whose great-grandparents were all English. Fairly sure John would still be John. Or is it acceptable just because John and his parents were born and raised in Ireland and consider themselves Irish?

What about Steven Stevensen, whose father is Swedish and mother is Irish... Does he get his name translated even though he'd never have been called Stiofan?

Or what about Deborah or Sara, whose family is Irish many generations back but are also Jewish and want her to have a Jewish name?

Where do you draw the line? Do you have people declare that their family were in Ireland prior to Anglicisation of the country? Then translate those children's names?

It's a rubbish argument to say that children "would have" been called something. No they wouldn't - their parents chose their actual name. We're not living in 1413, we're living in 2013. They chose their child's name. If the kid happens to like their Irish translation, and it is actually the corresponding name and not just something close, then fire ahead and use it. But making up names for kids that they might not like for no decent reason at all is just madness.

Then don't send your kids to a Gaelscoil then! Or if you still want themeducated through Irish but don't want to change their name, then talk to the principal/teachers about it instead of coming on to boards to have a rant without actually doing anything about it á la OP.

Students learning English in Korea take English names. It's all about immersion in the language. And in that case, there is no equivalent of Sujin for a girl or Jang hyun for a boy, in English. But they still choose English names such as Andy or Kelly because they're learning English and with any language, immersion is the key to learning, and enjoyment.

kraggy

miss no stars wrote: »

What about John whose great-grandparents were all English. Fairly sure John would still be John. Or is it acceptable just because John and his parents were born and raised in Ireland and consider themselves Irish?

What about Steven Stevensen, whose father is Swedish and mother is Irish... Does he get his name translated even though he'd never have been called Stiofan?

Or what about Deborah or Sara, whose family is Irish many generations back but are also Jewish and want her to have a Jewish name?

Where do you draw the line? Do you have people declare that their family were in Ireland prior to Anglicisation of the country? Then translate those children's names?

It's a rubbish argument to say that children "would have" been called something. No they wouldn't - their parents chose their actual name. We're not living in 1413, we're living in 2013. They chose their child's name. If the kid happens to like their Irish translation, and it is actually the corresponding name and not just something close, then fire ahead and use it. But making up names for kids that they might not like for no decent reason at all is just madness.

I never once argued for changing names

And I don't agree with adding a fada or changing a vowel to make it sound Irish. However, I do argue for using a different version of the same name.

They're the same name, just different versions.

miss no stars

kraggy wrote: »

Then don't send your kids to a Gaelscoil then! Or if you still them educated through Irish but don't want to change their name, then talk to the principal/teachers about it instead of coming on to boards to have a rant without actually doing anything about it á la OP.

Students learning English in Korea take English names. It's all about immersion in the language. And in that case, there is no equivalent of Sujin for a girl or Jang hyun for a boy, in English. But they still choose English names such as Andy or Kelly because they're learning English and with any language, immersion is the key to learning, and enjoyment.

So basically, if you're Irish but would never have given your child the Irish version of their name you either aren't allowed to send them to the school, or if you do send them to a gaelscoil and they translate the child's name you should tell them to call your child by their proper name and if they don't (as the OP already said he did, by correcting them at parent-teacher meetings) just put up with it?

Also, there's a whole different culture altogether about Asian kids taking English names. Whoooooole other culture completely and is quite irrelevant to the discussion at hand because they pick their names themselves - they don't have an inaccurate one they dislike foisted on them.

miss no stars

kraggy wrote: »

However, I do argue for using a different version of the same name.

They're the same name, just different versions.

For whom? I've outlined three cases, who of those would have their name changed translated?

ballsymchugh

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Making even less sense now you are I'm afraid.
So he asked for opinions, and was told he should contact the school, but that wasn't advice, it was an opinion? Which he said he would do and that was ignoring the advice, sorry "opinion"?:rolleyes:

what should i do? = advice

what does AH think? = opinions

/unfollows.

johnolocher

ballsymchugh wrote: »

actually, i wonder did scottish and welsh names take the same hammering that irish names did from mid 1800s to 1920s?

a lot of present day irish names are anglicised versions of old irish surnames.

similar to the renaming at ellis island. you took the name the person behind the desk called you.

it's come full circle now with a lot of people changing their name back (such as the OP's daughter who wants to use her irish surname now).

It is a myth debunked now that officials behind the desk at Ellis Island changed people's names. It has been shown that in the vast majority of cases it was the persons choice to simplify their name, choose a similar name whether that was to have economic advantages or just to fit in is up to them.

Similarly in Ireland many people chose English and anglicised their own name, not because of their hatred of Irish but because they saw the English language as the language of progression and the future.

I'm not saying this was always the case, but to say now that the Irish people dropped their names and their language so quickly because 'the Brits made us' (not saying your saying this, but some do) is idiotic, the people in collusion with the British administrations policies willfully chose English. You can't force an entire country to give up its language without the cooportation of the people.

MadsL

Let me summarise the thread a little using a different analogy.

OP - I find it annoying when you get something stuck in your teeth - does AH?

Poster 1
Ohh ffs - that's what you can expect when you have teeth!

Paster 2
Brush your teeth!! Have you not brushed your teeth!

Poster 3
Go to the dentist, gods sake why don't you go to the dentist...

Poster 4
Dentures FTW!!!!!!!!1111

Poster 5
Has the OP been to the dentist yet?

Poster 6
Extract all your teeth - it's the only way

Dan_Solo

ballsymchugh wrote: »

what should i do? = advice

what does AH think? = opinions

/unfollows.

But you are now saying "You should phone the school" is an opinion, not advice?
(this is hilarious watching you squirm in a knot of your own making)

MadsL

Oranage2 wrote: »

You got to respect the guy as a father, let her fight her own battle when she's a kid but his little angle is all grown up he steps in.

I have been very clear about the fact that a. It is a very minor annoyance for my daughter. b. she's has never wanted assistance fighting her corner and c. That I possibly will continue to let her fight this battle and d. there is a separate issue of the names used on her school record for immigration/travel reasons.

Thanks for father dig though - helpful.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Presumably the definition of a nation is already known ( its not cognate with a State).

Why are you sending your child to a Irish speaking school, you seem hostile to the idea of Irish identity.

I'm not ffs. Put the flaming torch and pitchfork down. I'm hostile to makey-up history; the notion that Ireland was a distinct nation with a unified language and government at some point prior to independence is a bit of cognitive construct.

kraggy

miss no stars wrote: »

So basically, if you're Irish but would never have given your child the Irish version of their name you either aren't allowed to send them to the school, or if you do send them to a gaelscoil and they translate the child's name you should tell them to call your child by their proper name and if they don't (as the OP already said he did, by correcting them at parent-teacher meetings) just put up with it?

Also, there's a whole different culture altogether about Asian kids taking English names. Whoooooole other culture completely and is quite irrelevant to the discussion at hand because they pick their names themselves - they don't have an inaccurate one they dislike foisted on them.

What you said in your first paragraph, that's not what I said. I never said anything about putting up with anything. I said:

1. If your child's name is translateable to Irish and you send them to a Gaelscoil, then expect it to be translated to the Irish equivalent (not some bastardised/made up Irish name).

2. If you don't like that, fair enough, speak to the school. If they don't change it, then that's not on. Totally agree.

But why would you be in favour of an education through Irish but so averse to your child being addressed in an Irish version of their name? (Assuming the Irish version is a correct version of the name).


In relation to your second paragraph, of course it's relevant. In Korea and Ireland, the students are learning a second language. Immersion is the key. I've seen French camps where Irish kids would take or be given the French version of their name (where possible). If there is no French version, then no problem. Keep the original name.

kraggy

miss no stars wrote: »

What about John whose great-grandparents were all English. Fairly sure John would still be John. Or is it acceptable just because John and his parents were born and raised in Ireland and consider themselves Irish?

What about Steven Stevensen, whose father is Swedish and mother is Irish... Does he get his name translated even though he'd never have been called Stiofan?

Or what about Deborah or Sara, whose family is Irish many generations back but are also Jewish and want her to have a Jewish name?

Where do you draw the line? Do you have people declare that their family were in Ireland prior to Anglicisation of the country? Then translate those children's names?

It's a rubbish argument to say that children "would have" been called something. No they wouldn't - their parents chose their actual name. We're not living in 1413, we're living in 2013. They chose their child's name. If the kid happens to like their Irish translation, and it is actually the corresponding name and not just something close, then fire ahead and use it. But making up names for kids that they might not like for no decent reason at all is just madness.

Jesus wept. Read back through my posts. I said that if a parent/student has a problem with their name being translated then fair enough. It shouldn't be forced.

But if you send your child to a GAELSCOIL where the language spoken is GAEILGE, then it's a fair presumption that your child will be initially addressed in the Irish version of their name (the correct version).

If you don't like it, talk to the school. They should revert to the English name if you request it.

miss no stars

kraggy wrote: »

What you said in your first paragraph, that's not what I said. I never said anything about putting up with anything. I said:

1. If your child's name is translateable to Irish and you send them to a Gaelscoil, then expect it to be translated to the Irish equivalent (not some bastardised/made up Irish name).

2. If you don't like that, fair enough, speak to the school. If they don't change it, then that's not on. Totally agree.

But why would you be in favour of an education through Irish but so averse to your child being addressed in an Irish version of their name? (Assuming the Irish version is a correct version of the name).

Maybe you quite simply don't like the Irish version of the name. An example would be calling your child Deborah and then the school calling them Gobnait. Ugly name and NOT what you called your child.

In relation to your second paragraph, of course it's relevant. In Korea and Ireland, the students are learning a second language. Immersion is the key. I've seen French camps where Irish kids would take or be given the French version of their name (where possible). If there is no French version, then no problem. Keep the original name.

The difference with the far east is that the kids take the name themselves. Besides, I grew up friends with a chinese irish girl. Her and her siblings had chinese names (born and reared here) and also western names. They didn't take the western names because they were learning english - the grew up speaking english. They took them because it's at this point traditional to take a western name as well. Not for "immersion" purposes. But nowhere on their documentation was the western name listed, nowhere could it confuse the documented common usage of their name, unlike in the OP's case. And with going to French camps, the same applies - it doesn't actually affect anything. But in the OP's case, the kid might end up with an incorrect name on her JC and LC because of the school's stubbornness.

MadsL

kraggy wrote: »

1. If your child's name is translateable to Irish and you send them to a Gaelscoil, then expect it to be translated to the Irish equivalent (not some bastardised/made up Irish name).

Who gets to decide that?

2. If you don't like that, fair enough, speak to the school. If they don't change it, then that's not on. Totally agree.

My daughter has asked teachers not to change her name. Totally ignored by some, others more amenable. She's ticked off but not to the point that she wants a fuss made. That's her call I think.

But why would you be in favour of an education through Irish but so averse to your child being addressed in an Irish version of their name? (Assuming the Irish version is a correct version of the name).

What's with this 'correct' stuff? There is no 'correct' version or standard book of names is there?

Sponge Bob

kraggy wrote: »

But if you send your child to a GAELSCOIL where the language spoken is GAEILGE, then it's a fair presumption that your child will be initially addressed in the Irish version of their name (the correct version).

It is a calculated risk.

If you don't like it, talk to the school. They should revert to the English name if you request it.

Or start a thread on Boards.ie INSTEAD of talking to the school perhaps.

miss no stars

kraggy wrote: »

If you don't like it, talk to the school. They should revert to the English name if you request it.

Exactly my point all along, but many people all along this thread seem to think that it should be put up with and that made up Irish names should be accepted and welcomed just because it's a gaelscoil.

MadsL

miss no stars wrote: »

Exactly my point all along, but many people all along this thread seem to think that it should be put up with and that made up Irish names should be accepted and welcomed just because it's a gaelscoil.

Actually some people have suggested that I drag her out of there in protest...;)
as I said earlier, akin to having all your teeth pulled out because you got a piece of chicken stuck in them

MadsL

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Or start a thread on Boards.ie INSTEAD of talking to the school perhaps.

Bob has me on ignore so he's enjoying fantasising about what my actual point of view is. Oddly being unable to read the OP or any of my clarifications doesn't stop him commenting.

kraggy

miss no stars wrote: »

Maybe you quite simply don't like the Irish version of the name. An example would be calling your child Deborah and then the school calling them Gobnait. Ugly name and NOT what you called your child.

Like I said, if the child/parents don't like it, ask the school to stop calling them that. But don't be surprised when they start school and on day one that they will be called the Irish name at the beginning.

MadsL wrote: »

Who gets to decide that?


My daughter has asked teachers not to change her name. Totally ignored by some, others more amenable. She's ticked off but not to the point that she wants a fuss made. That's her call I think.


What's with this 'correct' stuff? There is no 'correct' version or standard book of names is there?

You're relentless. You really are.

Are you telling me that there is no association between the French boy's name Jean, and John? Or Michel and Michael? There are versions of many names in countless languages. If the correct version of the name in Irish doesn't exist, then of course the original name should remain. And if the teachers refused to do that for you then they are wrong.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is a calculated risk.



Or start a thread on Boards.ie INSTEAD of talking to the school perhaps.

My point precisely But in fairness I think he did try to address the issue with them since.

miss no stars wrote: »

Exactly my point all along, but many people all along this thread seem to think that it should be put up with and that made up Irish names should be accepted and welcomed just because it's a gaelscoil.

Not made up/bastardised names, but Irish versions are fair game. As long as the child and their parents are happy with it.

MadsL

kraggy wrote: »

Like I said, if the child/parents don't like it, ask the school to stop calling them that. But don't be surprised when they start school and on day one that they will be called the Irish name at the beginning.

I'm not suprised, I just think it is unecessary when pupils object to it - as do you

You're relentless. You really are.

Are you telling me that there is no association between the French boy's name Jean, and John? Or Michel and Michael? There are versions of many names in countless languages. If the correct version of the name in Irish doesn't exist, then of course the original name should remain. And if the teachers refused to do that for you then they are wrong.

Which is 'correct' for John in Irish? Eoin, Sean, Seon, Shaun, Shawn, Shane?
I just think talking about "correct" names is silly. Unless someone issues the "offical" book.

My point precisely But in fairness I think he did try to address the issue with them since.

Read my post about teeth above, which poster are you?

Not made up/bastardised names, but Irish versions are fair game. As long as the child and their parents are happy with it.

I think the rule seems to be as long as the teachers are happy with it

ballsymchugh

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But you are now saying "You should phone the school" is an opinion, not advice?
(this is hilarious watching you squirm in a knot of your own making)

if you want to go search for it, my original opionion was that i agreed with the OP, his daughter shouldn't have a name foisted upon her, especially since it was a completely different name, not an irish version of it.
phoning the school is the the most logical way to sort out the problem.

MadsL

ballsymchugh wrote: »

if you want to go search for it, my original opionion was that i agreed with the OP, his daughter shouldn't have a name foisted upon her, especially since it was a completely different name, not an irish version of it.
phoning the school is the the most logical way to sort out the problem.

And as I keeping pointing out, I thought this an interesting subject for debate, rather than an OMG what should I do? thread.

I'm not sure why people feel the need to keep badgering about if I have phoned the school yet. It's a thread on a topic, not an online to-do list.

Marcusm

miss no stars wrote: »

What about John whose great-grandparents were all English. Fairly sure John would still be John. Or is it acceptable just because John and his parents were born and raised in Ireland and consider themselves Irish?

What about Steven Stevensen, whose father is Swedish and mother is Irish... Does he get his name translated even though he'd never have been called Stiofan?

Not a greta example given you have Anglicised his name; more likely to have been Steffen Steffensen!

Sponge Bob

The whole thread is utterly absurd. It's a piece of really bad parenting gone quasiviral on the internet. Had they picked the right school for their child in the first place it could never have happened. And now the parents want the shaggin internet to fix their mistake for them.

Actually It's more like a mechanic complaining that his job gets him covered in oil and wanting sympathy for that. The answer, yer a feckin mechanic ...learn hairdressing willya.