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Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    She just doesnt like it. Why dont you set her a good example and tell her to appreciate her good education and not be bothering about silly things.
    To not question authority is not a good example.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Nope, another example of the latent hypocrisy.

    Why so? its a valid question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Why so? its a valid question.
    They can't be gaelicised because they have no gaelic meaning, just another example to point out the hypocrisy of these politically motivated teachers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭reprazant


    Why is changing the surname to Irish ok but not the first name?

    Surely, if it was your intention for the surname to be in Irish, it would be on the birth cert in Irish?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    reprazant wrote: »
    Why is changing the surname to Irish ok but not the first name?

    Surely, if it was your intention for the surname to be in Irish, it would be on the birth cert in Irish?

    Are you missing the rather crucial part about being forced to adopt a First name by the school?
    I don't think I was ever complaining about a free choice of which name to use :confused:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,904 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I'm going to go into my class tomorrow and tell my students they all have new names.

    Right, Tomoyuki, you're Thomas....Hiromasa, you're.....Harry...Maki, you're Mary...and so on.

    Why? Because I'm the teacher, and I'll do what I want with their names. It's an English class after all, so why would they complain?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Apparently you can do the deed poll thing if she is between 14-17 so long as there is the consent of both parents.

    Does she not have other common usage of her name besides school records? Sports club or classes or GP records etc?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    MadsL wrote: »
    Are you missing the rather crucial part about being forced to adopt a First name by the school?
    I don't think I was ever complaining about a free choice of which name to use :confused:
    And yet if there was a parent on here complaining about his Daithi being called David there'd be an uproar from the above poster. Take no notice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    osarusan wrote: »
    I'm going to go into my class tomorrow and tell my students they all have new names.

    Right, Tomoyuki, you're Thomas....Hiromasa, you're.....Harry...Maki, you're Mary...and so on.

    Why? Because I'm the teacher, and I'll do what I want with their names. It's an English class after all, so why would they complain?

    Please try it and report back.

    Be also sure to tell them they must use them all the way home and they will be suspended if they use their Japanese name whilst travelling to and from school. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    To not question authority is not a good example.

    I never said it was - but THIS particular gripe is a silly thing - IMO.

    Id be more concerned that my child was studying and learning in school. Again, this is only my opinion.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭reprazant


    MadsL wrote: »
    Are you missing the rather crucial part about being forced to adopt a First name by the school?
    I don't think I was ever complaining about a free choice of which name to use :confused:

    But did you not say that on the birth cert, both her surname are in English yet her primary school was the first to use an Irish surname? Now her new school is using both an Irish first name and surname?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Apparently you can do the deed poll thing if she is between 14-17 so long as there is the consent of both parents.

    I can't get the Passport office, an Irish Consul and the Embassy to agree on the process for getting her passport renewal signed at the moment. Deed poll signatures will be a Kafka comedy I would say.
    Does she not have other common usage of her name besides school records? Sports club or classes or GP records etc?

    She might, worth establishing some.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    reprazant wrote: »
    But did you not say that on the birth cert, both her surname are in English yet her primary school was the first to use an Irish surname? Now her new school is using both an Irish first name and surname?

    Yes, she chose to do that.

    You are struggling with this a bit aren't you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I never said it was - but THIS particular gripe is a silly thing - IMO.

    Id be more concerned that my child was studying and learning in school. Again, this is only my opinion.
    It's not silly, names are closely linked with identity. Change the language of the name and you change the person's identity. No one has the right to force any culture or ideology onto a young impressionable mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Apparently you can do the deed poll thing if she is between 14-17 so long as there is the consent of both parents.

    The RTE newsreader Sharon ni Bheolain (Sharon Boylan) did that I think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    I never said it was - but THIS particular gripe is a silly thing - IMO.

    Id be more concerned that my child was studying and learning in school. Again, this is only my opinion.

    She is, and doing well.

    Be nice if some teachers were more polite about not correcting how she says her name.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭reprazant


    MadsL wrote: »
    Yes, she chose to do that.

    You are struggling with this a bit aren't you.

    Not as much as you are struggling not to be condescending again.

    I am struggling with the bit where a 4 year old chooses her own name that is different from either surnames on her actual birth cert.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    MadsL wrote: »
    She is, and doing well.

    Be nice if some teachers were more polite about not correcting how she says her name.
    The use of the word correcting implies a superiority of the irish version. They aren't correcting they're imposing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,603 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    OP, I agree with you that the school are wrong.

    However, you really should have expected this kind of bollox when you put the child in a Gaelscoil in the first place. The demographic attracted to them for the Irish language (rather than the avoidance of lower socio-economic groups or to take advantage of the nonsensical bonus points) tend to be rather belligerent about the use of Irish in the first place. I think it goes without saying, that on this basis, one can only assume that the teachers in such an institution will be of a similar ilk if not even more extreme about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    MadsL wrote: »
    Are you missing the rather crucial part about being forced to adopt a First name by the school?
    I don't think I was ever complaining about a free choice of which name to use :confused:

    On any given day in school how many times do teachers actually call your name out? If you think about it - either in primary or secondary school? 5-6 max, some days less.

    Given it takes less than 1 second to say a name, that's what about 5 seconds out of 24,000 seconds in any given school day.

    It's really typifying the expression "making a mountain out of a molehill".

    Also, and this is just an aside, when has the internet become so dastardly devious and scary that revealing first names is a no-no? I've always understood revealing surnames to be a bit faux-pas risky, but like this whole thread could have been helped by knowing the name and offering some input on why/where the Irish translation of it is going awry.

    Or more to the point, if your daughter is just being silly. As in lets propose her name is sort of unique (thus easily 'findable' hence your refusal) like Tulisa and the Irish teachers go for something like Tólisa just to make it sound Irishy, then we could probably offer the opinion "so what ffs!".

    If you choose to start a thread having a pop at the intrinsic nature by which Irish-speaking schools translate proper nouns and first names, might help your cause to actually have the name in question!! Whilst it may not matter to you, and you may just have a problem with the fundamentals of it, it may shed more light on the situation.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's not silly, names are closely linked with identity. Change the language of the name and you change the person's identity. No one has the right to force any culture or ideology onto a young impressionable mind.

    You are entitled to your opinion but I think its nonsense. I am who I am no matter what someone refers to me as. My personal identity is not threatened by a name change. If your sense of identity is that fragile then a name change is the least of your worries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    You are entitled to your opinion but I think its nonsense. I am who I am no matter what someone refers to me as. My personal identity is not threatened by a name change. If your sense of identity is that fragile then a name change is the least of your worries.
    You're naive if you think Henry is the same thing as Heinrich or Frederick as Frédéric. The name implies a cultural affinity, it is not the place of teachers to impose their own cultural affinity to children. Like I said change the name you change the person's identity and how they see themselves. This is only a part of a wider rotten problem within the irish language community.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    reprazant wrote: »
    Not as much as you are struggling not to be condescending again.

    I am struggling with the bit where a 4 year old chooses her own name that is different from either surnames on her actual birth cert.

    Struggle away. Do you to be called English English or English Irish when you go to school is just as easy a choice as milk or a banana.

    That help?

    The point is she did NOT make that choice at 2nd level - it was forced on her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    You are entitled to your opinion but I think its nonsense. I am who I am no matter what someone refers to me as. My personal identity is not threatened by a name change. If your sense of identity is that fragile then a name change is the least of your worries.

    Change your username to JustinBeiberLover for a week then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Probably not, as Flower wouldn't usually be seen as an 'acceptable' translation for Bláthín when using her name in a different language.

    However, change that to 'David' for 'Daithí' and my answer is different. I think that's acceptable. It's all about what the generally accepted translation is and whether it sounds 'correct' or not. It's all about the semantics and the conventions involved with the languages. That might seem nonsensical to you but that's just the way it is.
    I would not go as far as calling it nonsense, but it is certainly not the most sensible thing to do. The sensible thing to do is not to change it. Then there is no debate or need for decision on what is acceptable or not, like who decides what translation of Bláthín is acceptable if a child was to go to a hypothetical strict english speaking school in the UK with some similar rule on translating names.

    Why is this done anyway? seriously? Is it to teach the child their name in the language, are they worried they will forget or something?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    On any given day in school how many times do teachers actually call your name out? If you think about it - either in primary or secondary school? 5-6 max, some days less.

    Given it takes less than 1 second to say a name, that's what about 5 seconds out of 24,000 seconds in any given school day.

    It's really typifying the expression "making a mountain out of a molehill".

    Also, and this is just an aside, when has the internet become so dastardly devious and scary that revealing first names is a no-no? I've always understood revealing surnames to be a bit faux-pas risky, but like this whole thread could have been helped by knowing the name and offering some input on why/where the Irish translation of it is going awry.

    Or more to the point, if your daughter is just being silly. As in lets propose her name is sort of unique (thus easily 'findable' hence your refusal) like Tulisa and the Irish teachers go for something like Tólisa just to make it sound Irishy, then we could probably offer the opinion "so what ffs!".

    If you choose to start a thread having a pop at the intrinsic nature by which Irish-speaking schools translate proper nouns and first names, might help your cause to actually have the name in question!! Whilst it may not matter to you, and you may just have a problem with the fundamentals of it, it may shed more light on the situation.


    It is pointless to debate the actual name as I could just make one up. Is it really hard to deal with some slightly abstract thought?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Them pronouncing it wrong would be even more annoying.

    This. I've a very unusual surname. In 3rd class the teacher got it wrong all year and I snapped during the year and called her rude for not bothering to learn my name and mispronouncing it ALL YEAR and even telling me that I was pronouncing it incorrectly. She tried to give out to me, and subsequently my parents ate the head off her and said I was absolutely in the right. I'd been trying to politely tell her my correct name all year and she'd been ignoring it and from now on the teacher should use my correct name, end of. Never again did she mispronounce my name, because a name is not up for question, it's a name.

    In the OP's case it sounds like the child has no problem with her name being translated, providing it's translated correctly, but the school haven't done that and all she wants is to be called by her actual name and not one that's different but sounds vaguely similar. It'd be like calling Marion Maire-Aine by the sounds of it. Similar sounding, but not the same name.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    MadsL wrote: »
    Change your username to JustinBeiberLover for a week then.

    I actually had originally typed that post to include the sentence "but not something offensive" and then thought I was making a far too obvious point. Clearly not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's not silly, names are closely linked with identity. Change the language of the name and you change the person's identity. No one has the right to force any culture or ideology onto a young impressionable mind.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You're naive if you think Henry is the same thing as Heinrich or Frederick as Frédéric. The name implies a cultural affinity, it is not the place of teachers to impose their own cultural affinity to children. Like I said change the name you change the person's identity and how they see themselves. This is only a part of a wider rotten problem within the irish language community.




    You're an awfull hyprocrite you know that, an incident where an authority figure tries to force Irish on someone and you're up in arms, but if it were an incident where an authority figure tries to force English on someone you would have a different tune.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭reprazant


    MadsL wrote: »
    Struggle away. Do you to be called English English or English Irish when you go to school is just as easy a choice as milk or a banana.

    That help?

    The point is she did NOT make that choice at 2nd level - it was forced on her.

    My god, you are actually incapable of discussing things like an adult.

    Right, I am out.

    I'd imagine one could get a more mature discussion with your teenage daughter rather than with you.


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