Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

Chronic Button

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't feel guilty for having depression but having tried suicide, the whole point of his being on the tv, part of me wonders if thats what I would feel if I was reading this in that state. People shouldn't be dying by suicide but because they want to live, not because they have been guilted into it.

Recognising that something that you want to do is not the best option is not the same as being guilted.

This child is being scapegoated. He is 16 and coping with tough circumstances the best way he can. This thread should probably be closed.

suicide_circus

eviltwin wrote: »

He is causing hurt to others. Its emotional blackmail of the worst kind. I don't have anything but sympathy for the lad, what a horrible thing to be dealing with at 16 but ffs am I supposed to feel guilty now for having depression and the stress it puts on the people around me? He hasn't a clue about anyone else's life, anyone's else's pressures or what their limitations are.

I think reminding people that their suicide will destroy their loved ones lives is harsh and painful - but also reality. It certainly wont make them commit suicide faster and may give them pause.

Nonoperational

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't feel guilty for having depression but having tried suicide, the whole point of his being on the tv, part of me wonders if thats what I would feel if I was reading this in that state. People shouldn't be dying by suicide but because they want to live, not because they have been guilted into it.

Any way people don't die from suicide is better than a tragic death in my opinion. At least if someone is alive there is hope of helping them.

shopaholic01

pone2012 wrote: »

I think one major thing that many have forgotten to take into account here is that this young man has had a death sentence handed to him. While everyone has been up in arms defending depression, has anyone stopped to consider that the lad himself is suffering from depression. I mean wouldn't you be depressed if you were told you had a few months left?

Chronic Button wrote: »

This child is being scapegoated. He is 16 and coping with tough circumstances the best way he can. This thread should probably be closed.

I have said in an earlier post that RTE should not be showing this, he's being exploited to boost ratings. The other guests will be Charlotte Church and a Rose of Tralee - hardly the best setting for such a topic. It wil also be biased, no one will be there to offer an alternative view. Yes, what he is going through is awful, but it does not give him the right to judge or belittle what others are going through.

Turtwig

My name is URL wrote: »

If the guy was going on the show, arguing for his right to die; and sharing his opinions on why other people in his position should consider that choice, people here would be tripping over themselves to support him.

Instead he's making the point that despite his own impending death, and the mental anguish that goes along with it; he still has a will to live.. and the poor kid is attacked for it.. called a self-centered ignorant asshole, and accused of causing hurt for others

Obviously we're going to have to wait to see what he says because News Media articles aren't always the most reliable for quoting other people in a manner that actually represents their views.

From the article it appears that he's angry at people who take their own life. This is somewhat understandable and he has to vent his sense of frustration. The objection though is that he's doing this on national television. Whatever the intentions behind the words may be, on a national soapbox the wrong choice of words could end up doing more harm than good.

Madam_X

Chronic Button wrote: »

Some people believe that suicide is selfish. As evidenced by this thread, you are not allowed to say that though.

But is it selfish in the sense of "Feck everyone else, I only care about myself, I'll do what I want" which is the outlook some people without any serious problems have, they are just self centred and self entitled.
It's not, there is a whole myriad of factors behind it. It's borne out of desperation and just not being able to take the pain anymore, and knowing what it will do to those left behind but still unable to carry on, despite getting treatment. Perhaps even seeing themselves as a burden to others while alive. I saw a very good comparison of suicide - being several floors up in a burning building and just jumping out the window because there is no other way out. That is not comparable to someone being selfish simply because they're a thoughtless, self absorbed twat when they have a choice not to be.

People ARE allowed say it, but tough luck if they're expecting nobody to challenge it.

Turtwig

pone2012 wrote: »

I mean wouldn't you be depressed if you were told you had a few months left?

Some might, some mightn't.
It's a bit like the assumption that winning the lotto makes people happy. In general, one year on the mental health of the person who got paralysed in an accident is on par with someone who won the lotto.For want of a better expression, everyone has different buttons and triggers that can lead to them reacting very differently.

My name is URL

Jernal wrote: »

Obviously we're going to have to wait to see what he says because News Media articles aren't always the most reliable for quoting other people in a manner that actually represents their views.

From the article it appears that he's angry at people who take their own life. This is somewhat understandable and he has to vent his sense of frustration. The objection though is that he's doing this on national television. Whatever the intentions behind the words may be, on a national soapbox the wrong choice of words could end up doing more harm than good.

Would it do any more harm than the numerous recent media circuses surrounding the deaths of teenage girls who were being bullied?

Pretty much every single media guideline for the reporting of suicides was ignored. Rather than report on the deaths themselves, the media sensationalized and focused mainly on the bullying part. Placing blame entirely on one aspect of the deceased's lives.. making it seem like suicide was a logical conclusion for anyone that is being bullied.

Journalists calling to the doors of and phoning parents, teachers and friends to beef out their half assed opinion pieces.. etc

And yet, at the time; nobody seemed worried that it might do more harm than good. In contrast to that stuff, this guys story / views are bloody mild.

Turtwig

My name is URL wrote: »

Would it do any more harm than the numerous recent media circuses surrounding the deaths of teenage girls who were being bullied?

Pretty much every single media guideline for the reporting of suicides was ignored. Rather than report on the deaths themselves, the media sensationalized and focused mainly on the bullying part. Placing blame entirely on one aspect of the deceased's lives.. making it seem like suicide was a logical conclusion for anyone that is being bullied.

Journalists calling to the doors of and phoning parents, teachers and friends to beef out their half assed opinion pieces.. etc

And yet, at the time; nobody seemed worried that it might do more harm than good. In contrast to that stuff, this guys story / views are bloody mild.

Honestly I don't know, but I fear we're going to find out. Hated that bullying bonanza btw. :mad:

I guess it'll probably boil down whether or not more people are being bullied than people who have suicidal thoughts. Actually that's a hard thing to word, but I thing you know what I meant.

Chronic Button

Madam_X wrote: »

But is it selfish in the sense of "Feck everyone else, I only care about myself, I'll do what I want" which is the outlook some people without any serious problems have, they are just self centred and self entitled.
It's not, there is a whole myriad of factors behind it. It's borne out of desperation and just not being able to take the pain anymore, and knowing what it will do to those left behind but still unable to carry on, despite getting treatment. Perhaps even seeing themselves as a burden to others while alive. I saw a very good comparison of suicide - being several floors up in a burning building and just jumping out the window because there is no other way out. That is not comparable to someone being selfish simply because they're a thoughtless, self absorbed twat when they have a choice not to be.

People ARE allowed say it, but tough luck if they're expecting nobody to challenge it.

Don't put words in my mouth. You're arguing with points that I, nor anyone else that I can see here, have not raised.

IzzyWizzy

My name is URL wrote: »

If the guy was going on the show, arguing for his right to die; and sharing his opinions on why other people in his position should consider that choice, people here would be tripping over themselves to support him.

Instead he's making the point that despite his own impending death, and the mental anguish that goes along with it; he still has a will to live.. and the poor kid is attacked for it.. called a self-centered ignorant asshole, and accused of causing hurt for others

No, he's bitter and angry that other people 'choose' to end their life when he can't choose to continue living his and is trying to guilt such people into feeling grateful that they don't have a terminal illness. It is basically just another form of 'hey, why don't ya just snap out of it, weakling? I have it SO much worse than you and I carry on'. The same thing most depressed people have heard over and over. I understand why the kid might be feeling this way, but he should NEVER have been given a platform to air his ill-informed views. It's extremely damaging and dangerous and shows a total lack of understanding and empathy regarding mental illness.

opinion guy

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think reminding people that their suicide will destroy their loved ones lives is harsh and painful - but also reality. It certainly wont make them commit suicide faster and may give them pause.

How do you know ?
Many of them feel they are a burden on loved ones.
Others are suicidal because of 'loved ones'.

Lecturing them and talking down to them about their own lives without knowing their individual circumstances may very well cement their depressed mindset and send them over the edge. It enhances the feeling of 'noone understands'

Madam_X

Chronic Button wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth. You're arguing with points that I, nor anyone else that I can see here, have not raised.

No I'm not. It's my response to the assertion that "Suicide is selfish" and the defence of such a statement. All I'm saying is that that's too bald a statement to make - there's a deeply layered cause to this "selfishness", it's not simply someone being a thoughtless ass.

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think reminding people that their suicide will destroy their loved ones lives is harsh and painful - but also reality.

I don't think it's harsh and painful at all - it's a completely fair thing to say to someone who is suicidal IMO. But it's not like they don't know this. Unfortunately it is not always sufficient to help ease the agonising pain they're in.

shopaholic01

If a person feels that they are worthless, they life is not worth living, their family and friends are better off without them etc., how can you argue that's selfish?

To them they are doing others a favour, it's the opposite of selfish.

Suicide is not a rational decision, nor is it one that is done on an impulse after having a bad day.

It's hard to comprehend how someone could feel that way, or decide to end their life unless you've been in that situation yourself. I haven't, but I knew people who committed suicide and they weren't selfish people. They simply couldn't cope with living anymore.

My name is URL

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

No, he's bitter and angry that other people 'choose' to end their life when he can't choose to continue living his and is trying to guilt such people into feeling grateful

That's how you choose to read it.. and imo, your reaction is just as insensitive as others are seeing the kids views as.

"So please as a 16 year old who has no say in his death sentence, who has no choice in the pain he is about to cause and who would take any chance at even a few more months on this planet, appreciate what you have, know that there are always other options and help is always there.”

Such hurtful words eh? :rolleyes:

Chronic Button

Madam_X wrote: »

No I'm not. It's my response to the assertion that "Suicide is selfish" and the defence of such a statement. All I'm saying is that that's too bald a statement to make - there's a deeply layered cause to this "selfishness", it's not simply someone being a thoughtless ass.

Once again, I have not for a moment suggested that suicide is the product of someone being a 'thoughtless ass'.

I do believe however that fundamentally it is a selfish act. You disagree because you think selfish means a whole host of things that arguably it doesn't. It means putting your own feelings and needs ahead of others'.

Defence of suicide is baffling to me. It seems to send the message that if you wish to die, well go right ahead. And don't let anyone tell you it's wrong.

I just don't view it as an amoral act. Suicide has massively damaging consequences. Those consequences are not intended, I know - from my own experience all I wanted was the pain and despair to end. But I decided not to do it because the consequences are too great. I am glad I made that decision and I stand by it and if you have the capacity to do the same then I believe you ought to.

jigglypuffstuff

Chronic Button wrote: »

Defence of suicide is baffling to me. .

Me and you both!

Turtwig

Christ on a bike! Nobody is defending suicide. People are debunking the depiction of suicide as something akin to take the cowards way out or an act of inconsiderate selfishness. Yes suicide is inherently selfish, but then so is having kids, or feeding yourself. However, it's the attitude that suicide is selfish in the sense of only looking out for yourself without due regard for the thoughts and feeling of others that's being debunked.

And again to be clear, I'm not saying the boy mentioned in the OP espoused these views.

pablomakaveli

Chronic Button wrote: »

Once again, I have not for a moment suggested that suicide is the product of someone being a 'thoughtless ass'.

I do believe however that fundamentally it is a selfish act. You disagree because you think selfish means a whole host of things that arguably it doesn't. It means putting your own feelings and needs ahead of others'.

Defence of suicide is baffling to me. It seems to send the message that if you wish to die, well go right ahead. And don't let anyone tell you it's wrong.

I just don't view it as an amoral act. Suicide has massively damaging consequences. Those consequences are not intended, I know - from my own experience all I wanted was the pain and despair to end. But I decided not to do it because the consequences are too great. I am glad I made that decision and I stand by it and if you have the capacity to do the same then I believe you ought to.

No ones defending suicide. But labeling it selfish only adds stigma for someone with suicidal thoughts. They may worry about being labelled a selfish bastard for having those thoughts and might be put off seeking the help they need. I was worried about being judged and mocked and that put me off getting help for a long time and that nearly cost me my life.

We should be telling people that your not a bad person for having those thoughts but you do need to get help.

IzzyWizzy

My name is URL wrote: »

That's how you choose to read it.. and imo, your reaction is just as insensitive as others are seeing the kids views as.



Such hurtful words eh? :rolleyes:

You don't get it, same as he doesn't get it.

I have no doubt that the kid has good intentions and doesn't mean to hurt or offend, but yes, he is trying to guilt people. 'Appreciate what you have'? Hard to do that when you're in the depths of clinical depression. 'Help is always out there' - Eh, not really. I spent over 6 months on a waiting list for a therapist. Had very, very little support from friends and family, most of them having the 'your life isn't that bad! Pull yourself together!' attitude or plain not wanting to be bothered. I reached out to someone and was pretty much told, 'I have my own problems, sort yourself out'. Saying he 'has no choice' about the pain he's in implies that those with depression DO have a choice. Talking about the choice in 'pain he is about to cause', as if people who commit suicide set out to hurt the people they leave behind.

Yes, they are very, very hurtful words.

jigglypuffstuff

pablomakaveli wrote: »

. They may worry about being labelled a selfish bastard for having those thoughts and might be put off seeking the help they need. I was worried about being judged and mocked and that put me off getting help for a long time and that nearly cost me my life.

Thats a very fair point. I don't think having those thoughts is a selfish thing,

However as far as committing the act is concerned thats where id draw the line.

Its one thing to think about something, its a total different thing to do it

jigglypuffstuff

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

You don't get it, same as he doesn't get it.

I have no doubt that the kid has good intentions and doesn't mean to hurt or offend, but yes, he is trying to guilt people. 'Appreciate what you have'? Hard to do that when you're in the depths of clinical depression. 'Help is always out there' - Eh, not really. I spent over 6 months on a waiting list for a therapist. Had very, very little support from friends and family, most of them having the 'your life isn't that bad! Pull yourself together!' attitude or plain not wanting to be bothered. I reached out to someone and was pretty much told, 'I have my own problems, sort yourself out'. Saying he 'has no choice' about the pain he's in implies that those with depression DO have a choice. Talking about the choice in 'pain he is about to cause', as if people who commit suicide set out to hurt the people they leave behind.

Yes, they are very, very hurtful words.

I think it's you that doesnt get it. Where in that article does he even mention the word depression? This is what he says

''know that there are always other options and help is always there''

What part of that is hurtful?? This kid has no choice but to die, he's urging others who have that choice to make the right decision and seek help!!!

Are you implying that people with clinical depression have no choice whether or not to seek help?

Chronic Button

As someone who suffers depression and has considered suicide, I am not hurt by his words. I see he means well and I really feel for him and his family.

I just want to ask - all politics and differences of opinion aside, genuinely - is anyone reading here hurt by his comments? I won't argue if you are, I am just curious.

My name is URL

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

You don't get it, same as he doesn't get it.

I have no doubt that the kid has good intentions and doesn't mean to hurt or offend, but yes, he is trying to guilt people. 'Appreciate what you have'? Hard to do that when you're in the depths of clinical depression. 'Help is always out there' - Eh, not really. I spent over 6 months on a waiting list for a therapist. Had very, very little support from friends and family, most of them having the 'your life isn't that bad! Pull yourself together!' attitude or plain not wanting to be bothered. I reached out to someone and was pretty much told, 'I have my own problems, sort yourself out'. Saying he 'has no choice' about the pain he's in implies that those with depression DO have a choice. Talking about the choice in 'pain he is about to cause', as if people who commit suicide set out to hurt the people they leave behind.

Yes, they are very, very hurtful words.

You best never look at the Samaritans website if you feel that's the case. One of their main mottos is "You don't have to be suicidal", basically amounting to what the kid is saying regarding choice and the availability of help services.

Would you also accuse the Samaritans of not 'getting it'?

Ten of Swords

pone2012 wrote: »

This kid has no choice but to die, he's urging others who have that choice to make the right decision and seek help!!!

Are you implying that people with clinical depression have no choice whether or not to seek help?

The guy's intentions haven't been called into question by anyone in this thread and I think it can be safely assumed that he genuinely wants to help people.

The divisive issue here is that he is not facing the choice to end his life and therefore he is probably not in the best position to advise people that maybe are facing difficult times and have considered suicide. It is probable that his views will be entertained but ultimately ignored but he may manage to alienate people who feel that he has no real understanding of what he is talking about.

RTE will squeeze whatever publicity they can from this and then in a week or two nobody will remember him.

Turtwig

pone2012 wrote: »

I think it's you that doesnt get it. Where in that article does he even mention the word depression? This is what he says

''know that there are always other options and help is always there''

What part of that is hurtful?? This kid has no choice but to die, he's urging others who have that choice to make the right decision and seek help!!!

Are you implying that people with clinical depression have no choice whether or not to seek help?

OK,
First off, it's always possible that this article doesn't accurately represent his views. I've quoted his entire words in the article and boldfaced the bits that I'd have a problem with.

"I realised that I was fighting for my life for the third time in four years and this time I have no hope," he opened up. "Yet still I hear of young people committing suicide and I’m sorry but it makes me feel nothing but anger."


"I feel angry that these people choose to take their lives, to ruin their families and to leave behind a mess that no one can clean up," he added. "I am here with no choice, trying as best I can to prepare my family and friends for what’s about to come and leave as little a mess as possible. I know that most of these people could be going through financial despair and have other problems in life, but I am at the depths of despair and believe me there is a long way to go before you get to where I am. For these people no matter how bad life gets there are no reasons bad enough to make them do this, if they slept on it or looked for help they could find a solution and that they need to think of the consequences of what they are about to do."

"It was given to me as easy as dinner," he said. “A few months left, he said. There it was I was given a timeline on the rest if my life. No choice, no say, no matter. It was given to me as easy as dinner. I couldn’t believe it, that all I had was 16 years here and soon I began to pay attention to every detail that was going on in this town."

"So please as a 16 year old who has no say in his death sentence, who has no choice in the pain he is about to cause and who would take any chance at even a few more months on this planet appreciate what you have, know that there are always other options and help is always there."


Notice how often he used the term choice. How he regarded himself as being in the depths of despair. That people could sleep on their problems.
There's no doubt that his intentions are good. His words, though, not so much.

IzzyWizzy

pone2012 wrote: »

I think it's you that doesnt get it. Where in that article does he even mention the word depression? This is what he says

''know that there are always other options and help is always there''

What part of that is hurtful?? This kid has no choice but to die, he's urging others who have that choice to make the right decision and seek help!!!

Are you implying that people with clinical depression have no choice whether or not to seek help?

I would imagine most people kill themselves because they feel depressed or have other mental issues. Just a guess.

If you can't read more into his statement, then I don't know what to tell you.

And as I already said, help is NOT available for a lot of people and even if it is, they're too sick to ask for it.

My name is URL wrote: »

You best never look at the Samaritans website if you feel that's the case. One of their main mottos is "You don't have to be suicidal", basically amounting to what the kid is saying regarding choice and the availability of help services.

Would you also accuse the Samaritans of not 'getting it'?

No, it isn't. There is a world of difference between 'suicide doesn't have to be the answer to your serious mental health issues' and 'appreciate what you have because others have it so much worse'. There is absolutely no logic whatsoever in comparing dying from a terminal illness and 'choosing' to kill yourself. He's irrationally angry that other people choose to end their lives while he wants to live but can't. Totally understandable. But not appropriate to broadcast to the nation. It's just incredibly simplistic and naive.

jigglypuffstuff

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

You don't get it, same as he doesn't get it.

I have no doubt that the kid has good intentions and doesn't mean to hurt or offend, but yes, he is trying to guilt people. 'Appreciate what you have'? Hard to do that when you're in the depths of clinical depression. 'Help is always out there' - Eh, not really. I spent over 6 months on a waiting list for a therapist. Had very, very little support from friends and family, most of them having the 'your life isn't that bad! Pull yourself together!' attitude or plain not wanting to be bothered. I reached out to someone and was pretty much told, 'I have my own problems, sort yourself out'. Saying he 'has no choice' about the pain he's in implies that those with depression DO have a choice. Talking about the choice in 'pain he is about to cause', as if people who commit suicide set out to hurt the people they leave behind.

Yes, they are very, very hurtful words.

Jernal wrote: »

Notice how often he used the term choice. How he regarded himself as being in the depths of despair. That people could sleep on their problems.
There's no doubt that his intentions are good. His words, though, not so much.

Perhaps his choice of words aren't the best that I can agree upon

Well regarding suicide it is most definitley a choice. If an individual who has clinical depression/ suicidal thoughts does not make an attempt at suicide then it wont happen. Whereas this young man has no choice its coming whether he likes it or not and theres nothing he can do to stop it.

Also I think he meant suicide specifically when he said sleep upon it, well thats how I interpreted it anyway

IzzyWizzy

pone2012 wrote: »

Perhaps his choice of words aren't the best that I can agree upon

Well regarding suicide it is most definitley a choice. If an individual who has clinical depression/ suicidal thoughts does not make an attempt at suicide then it wont happen. Whereas this young man has no choice its coming whether he likes it or not and theres nothing he can do to stop it.

Also I think he meant suicide specifically when he said sleep upon it, well thats how I interpreted it anyway

It's just so naive. Like that silly 'suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem' thing. As if people decide to kill themselves because someone put an empty milk carton back in the fridge. By the time someone gets to the point of killing themselves, I think things are already pretty damn horrendous for them.

Saying things like they should 'sleep on their issues' is just condescending. As is saying that 'nobody's problems are that bad' and 'there's a long way to go before you get to where he is'. How on earth does he know what other people have been through? He has no right to judge others like that. Terminal illness is terrible but so are lots of other situations. It's not a bloody competition.

jigglypuffstuff

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I
Saying things like they should 'sleep on their issues' is just condescending. As is saying that 'nobody's problems are that bad' and 'there's a long way to go before you get to where he is'. How on earth does he know what other people have been through? He has no right to judge others like that. Terminal illness is terrible but so are lots of other situations. It's not a bloody competition.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the importance of mental health. Its the most neglected part of health in Ireland from what I see. I often see it down to social determinants however. Right back as far as the old ''its not ok for a man to cry'' line of thinking.

In general many (not all) people tend to not worry about things until its too late. For example

People don't want to stop drinking until they are already alcoholics

People don't want to stop smoking until they have cancer

People dont want to talk about their feelings until it goes too far and some sort of explosion/ implosion of emotion happens

These may all seem like different problems but the principal behind what im saying stays true. In some cases people dont even want to acknowledge things. Hell it took me months before i realized i had any issue, longer to admit it to others and even longer again before i decided to start tackling the issue. I dont want to announce here some of the things i did but reflecting makes me realize just how neglected mental health is.

In any event were are talking extremes here where lives are at question. but just to ask. Can depression itself actually kill you? What I mean is take every other variable out of the equation and just look at depression. Can it?

My guess would be no it cannot directly (open to correction/debate) and I think thats the point he's trying to make. That people in that case have the chance to fight back and at least try, however large or small the chance is it's still there. Whereas he knows that he has not got such a choice and is doomed to it.

I will agree one thing though, he has not been in everyone's shoes, but if the kid helps a few people up from a dark place what harm? If you were in his shoes at his age, would you be able to directly speak about you feelings so well as to not offend anyone?

Nothing in this post is out to offend anyone and im not saying depression isnt serious, ive seen it first hand destroy people! including a friend who commited suicide.

Im just putting my interpretation of what I think that lad was trying to say out there.