Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

Corkfeen

pone2012 wrote: »

To be 100% honest it does come across this way perhaps I should have defined the line between my opinion and facts

Yes i do study psychology its a big part of my course, my interest lies however in social psychology. perhaps i should have omitted that from the post

Why was it necessary to point out that you were studying psychology in your first post. Was it to add more 'credibility' to your opinion? :rolleyes:

WumBuster

RTE should not be entertaining this as it sends out the completely wrong message- i.e it's your fault if you are suicidal and you are an idiot for even contemplating it especially when you dont know how good you got it really. yes, partially true but its not that simple for most people who are suicidal.

Odysseus

pone2012 wrote: »

And you think my course is baby-sitting? basically took the course as a backdoor into psychology, still have more experience in it than you i presume, not to mention the extra reading i do as i enjoy the subject

Well I wouldn't look down on your course, however, I would be very careful in thinking you have more experience than other posters, there are peole here who are very experienced. You never know who is posting.

The reality is you have no professional experience, you are a student at undergard level. Your personal experience is that it tells you of your pathology and nothing else.

You are not qualified in any psychological area at the moment are you? So all you have at the moment is your personal opinion, and that is fine. It is what most people here have. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it falls flat when you try to claim know about complex areas such as mental health and suicidial ideation.

When you are there it seems different, but I can tell you as as second or third year undergard, you are only starting to grapple with very complex situations and pathologies.

I still struggle with such complexies and I have well over a decade of clinical work, nearly two of ongoing study and professional formation.

Go off get your post-grad and your professional learning in whatever area you focus on; but I think you would see this in a different light in another five years or so. Especially if you do some work around this area.

opinion guy

pone2012 wrote: »

Indeed not.

No im in no manner boasting im simply stating, that mental health disorders can be overcome with or without help, depending on severity. having it is hard enough to state.

Well congrats on beating you condition. But I think you are making a classic flaw of the young and inexperienced - assuming that because you could do it everyone can do it. Not everyone thinks like you or has your particular strengths and weaknesses. And failure to recognise that may falsely lead you to assume that everyone else can do what you did. The world doesn't work like that. A realization that would serve you well.

Grayson

pone2012 wrote: »

So you expect me to believe that a person is ignorant to the fact that there is help available for sufferers of mental health?? Seriously i hope you are joking...

If I gave someone a drug (say a mixture of PCP and meth) which turned them incredibly violent, would you think it strange if they hit someone? No. Because there's a reason, they are that bad. You could tell someone who was off the head on the drug in a nice reasonable manner that what they were doing was wrong and against the law. You could advise them to go to a doctor for help. Of course, they'd probably punch you because they are off their nut on drugs.

Depression is like that. It alters reality in a lot of ways. Quite often people can't think straight. The options may be there but they dont avail because they don't want to give in, or it's stigmatised or they just don't think it will be any help. But the fact is that in the way a drug can cloud someone perceptions and their ability to assess their options, so too can an illness like depression.

You probably think otherwise because you are just associating it with someone feeling a bit depressed. It's not.

IzzyWizzy

pone2012 wrote: »

sufferer of OCD . have managed to turn it from a serious problem to very little in over a year, with no help whatsoever.

Good for you, but you can't tell other people they should just do the same. Perhaps your case of OCD wasn't that severe after all? How do you know other people don't have much more severe cases? Perhaps other people lack the support system you might have and take for granted? A different set of circumstances? You can't get into people's heads and feel what they're feeling.

pone2012 wrote: »

Care to elaborate?



Perhaps they might, but then did you again consider that the grass is always greener on the other side? that things always seem better in someone elses shoes until you are there?

There is more to psychology that simply mental health you know, what about social psychology?? or research i never said that i wanted to become a clincal psychologist. Ive seen enough of that in my family thanks.

Are you ignorant to the fact that there is far more to psychology than treating mentally ill people??

Yes, I know these things. I'm glad you're not planning to become a clinical psychologist, but you lack even the most basic understanding of psychology and mental health issues. Even for an undergrad.

Odysseus

pone2012 wrote: »

To be 100% honest it does come across this way perhaps I should have defined the line between my opinion and facts

Yes i do study psychology its a big part of my course, my interest lies however in social psychology. perhaps i should have omitted that from the post

Well that's fair enough imo. All I can say is human behaviour is so complex that you will never know enough about. Its a form of intelligent ignorance, when we deal with such subjective states like mental health and psychopathologies we deak with the general and the specific.

The general in this case is the certain things we can say about suicidal ideation, the specific well the is the subjective state that is specific to that individual of which only he can speak to us.

Maybe I'm going off topic, but what I am trying to say is be careful of thinking you know, the reality is we may know certain things, but there is much more we don't know.

jigglypuffstuff

opinion guy wrote: »

Well congrats on beating you condition. But I think you are making a classic flaw of the young and inexperienced - assuming that because you could do it everyone can do it. Not everyone thinks like you or has your particular strengths and weaknesses. And failure to recognise that may falsely lead you to assume that everyone else can do what you did. The world doesn't work like that. A realization that would serve you well.

I dont see it as everyone can. Ive seen s member of my family thinking that the the people in the tv and radio were conspiring to kill them. No joke honestly. But what i meant by that was it can get better both with and without help. Not that it always does but it can.

will.i.am

pone2012 wrote: »

I dont see it as everyone can. Ive seen s member of my family thinking that the the people in the tv and radio were conspiring to kill them. No joke honestly. But what i meant by that was it can get better both with and without help. Not that it always does but it can.

Sorry OP if I offended you earlier. I actually know a good few people who have studied your degree in UCC. Unlike you however they chose to work in different areas. Some became became mangers of creches and others went on to study primary teaching etc. I think a lot of people on this this thread misunderstood you from the beginning just by the way you word your posts.If you do go on to study Physiology I wish you all the best with that or whatever you do.

Galwayguy35

Jernal wrote: »

It's a basic probability assumption. If we assume that a person is suffering more than any one person in the world the probability of that has to be 1 in 7 billion. If you narrow it down to person's living in Ireland it's still a really improbable figure. (1 in 4 million.)
Then you have to consider the questions, which is worse physical or mental torment? What age group suffers the most? What social class? What sex? To what extent can modern medicine alleviate suffering? etc. etc.

I have no idea how bad his is suffering, nor do you, but that's actually the point. His suffering is probably bad, and will probably get worse but he likely has no idea just how much other people are suffering too. I don't, you don't, nobody on this thread does. We've all probably witnessed some form of suffering in one guise or another but all we can do is make assumptions as to the scale of the suffering experienced by either ourselves or others. And the odds on any single one of us suffering more than everybody is 1 in several billion and rising.

Even if someone is suffering the worst possible way in the world it still doesn't justify them criticising the actions or conditions of others who they feel are not suffering as much as them. You could empathise with the frustration that the sufferer may feel, but it doesn't justify or give them the automatic entitlement to voice that frustration.

And just to be absolutely clear here this post is a digression of sorts. It's about the assumption that someone may be suffering more than somebody else.
It is NOT about the boy in the OP.

Well you mentioned the boy in the post that I quoted and quite frankly using terms like "just because he's on his deathbed" is a bit insensitive IMO.

Turtwig

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well you mentioned the boy in the post that I quoted and quite frankly using terms like "just because he's on his deathbed" is a bit insensitive IMO.

Saying that someone is close to death is a bit insensitive? If it is I apologise, but I'm a bit flummoxed at the moment. He's terminally ill. Maybe deathbed has more negative connotations that I'm not aware of. But if someone is terminal ill, they're on their deathbed. It's just an idiom for dying.

kilkenny12

Lone Stone wrote: »

To balance this out we need a suicidal person to start a anti cancer campaign that'l teach d'em.

Ya, "sure at least you had a happy life before you got cancer"

I'd pick cancer over depression any day.

karma_

kilkenny12 wrote: »

Ya, "sure at least you had a happy life before you got cancer"

I'd pick cancer over depression any day.

I've witnessed someone dying of cancer. You really don''t.

inappropriate rage fuelled comment removed.

Mardy Bum

For those who lack an understanding of depression here is a lecture by Robert Sapolsky.

It gives an excellent insight into the disease.

jigglypuffstuff

will.i.am wrote: »

Sorry OP if I offended you earlier. I actually know a good few people who have studied your degree in UCC. Unlike you however they chose to work in different areas. Some became became mangers of creches and others went on to study primary teaching etc. I think a lot of people on this this thread misunderstood you from the beginning just by the way you word your posts.If you do go on to study Physiology I wish you all the best with that or whatever you do.

Forgotten, and likewise if i offended you my apologies.

Chronic Button

My name is URL wrote: »

People are odd all the same. The internet lights up with outpourings of grief and people emotionally gushing when a story emerges about a bullied kid taking their own life. People get angry at the circumstances, they proclaim to want to put an end to such tragedies and wish somebody had done something to stop it. They talk about the cause far more than the outcome.

Yet, a 16 yo kid comes out and shares his thoughts on things as he sees them, and he's met with anger and disdain for doing so. People say that his views do more harm than good, and that suicidal people won't have their minds changed by it. Well, will they have their minds changed if others appear to accept that suicide is an understandable or even an inevitable option for them?

Bang on.

I have suffered with depression and a range of mental health disorders all my life. I have no family for support although I do now have a partner and a few friends.

I decided 15 years ago that no matter how bad things got inside my head, no matter how suicidal I felt, I would not commit suicide, as it is a fundamentally selfish act.

I am currently struggling with a very heavy depressive episode. I get myself out of bed every day and I keep breathing in and out. I try to do what my therapist recommends when I can and I wait for the horrors to pass. So don't tell me I don't understand.

I agree with the kid. He is doing the best with what he has and knows. My heart goes out to him and his loved ones.

And for those who think a terminal illness won't push you to depression and despair - you're idiots. Depression and despair go hand in hand with terminal illness, as anyone who has had a brush with it will tell you.

Nonoperational

I don't know did people read what he actually said at all. "I feel angry that these people choose to take their lives, to ruin their families and to leave behind a mess that no one can clean up,".

He's making it too simplistic saying that someone with depression and suicidal ideation can look at people like him and say all of a sudden that they won't consider suicide any more (if that's what he's implying), but his point delivered with more subtlety is one that is commonly made and has some merit.

Anger is a perfectly normal response to suicide. I've seem people who have attempted it themselves, and after treatment their own response to it when talking about it is anger. I have personal experience of the anger people feel.

Obviously being empathetic is important, as well as trying to get to the bottom of the deeper issues, but an approach to people with suicidal thoughts or plans commonly involves spelling out some realities about how it will affect people left behind and asking them to think of this. It is probably the main reason there are not a lot more suicides. Someone said earlier that tough love is not a treatment for depression. It's not. But neither is completely ignoring issues and not saying things like they are. There are realities that aren't glossed over or ignored because a patient has depression. People are quick to blast people here for having no experience of depression etc, but I'd suggest that if some of those people spent some time with very ill people and observed how they were treated they may be a bit surprised with how honest and frank things can be.

It is almost impossible for someone not suffering from the condition to appreciate just how bad it gets and how hard it is, but it seems to be the cool thing here to blast the guy and say that he is an idiot for suggesting people shouldn't take their own life and that you shouldn't be angry at people who attempt it or do it. It's not a selfish act in the mind of the person contemplating it because they are Ill and are not making a conscious selfish decision like a well person would, but that doesn't mean it's not ok to tell them it's not the right thing to do. You have to be honest and tell people all the hurt, pain, shame and trouble their actions will cause.

He's young, and he's dying and it's a horrible situation. But he's trying to draw attention to something which is quite an issue and all too often ignored. I feel there is a bit of a lack of balance in the replies, but that's only how I feel.

Turtwig

Chronic Button wrote: »

Bang on.

I have suffered with depression and a range of mental health disorders all my life. I have no family for support although I do now have a partner and a few friends.

I decided 15 years ago that no matter how bad things got inside my head, no matter how suicidal I felt, I would not commit suicide, as it is a fundamentally selfish act.

I am currently struggling with a very heavy depressive episode. I get myself out of bed every day and I keep breathing in and out. I try to do what my therapist recommends when I can and I wait for the horrors to pass. So don't tell me I don't understand.

I agree with the kid. He is doing the best with what he has and knows. My heart goes out to him and his loved ones.

And for those who think a terminal illness won't push you to depression and despair - you're idiots. Depression and despair go hand in hand with terminal illness, as anyone who has had a brush with it will tell you.

I think it's extremely commendable that you're managing your awkward situation and getting on with life.

However, why is personal experience required to understand something? And since when does personal experience mean you understand something?

So, yeah, I'm going to be that prat and tell you. If you think suicide is an inherently selfish act, then you probably don't understand it. Suicide is ridiculously complex topic, to steal a phrase from quantum physicists : If you think you understand suicidal feelings, then you don't understand suicidal feelings.

Chronic Button

Jernal wrote: »

If you think suicide is an inherently selfish act, then you probably don't understand it. Suicide is ridiculously complex topic, to steal a phrase from quantum physicists : If you think you understand suicidal feelings, then you don't understand suicidal feelings.

People have different values. Because my values differ to yours does not mean I don't understand the topic at hand. I understand the desire to commit suicide very acutely. Unfortunately I am sorry to say I also understand the effects of suicide.

Others will have had similar experiences to me and come to different conclusions. That's life.

I wouldn't be such a fool as to tell others they don't understand their own values.

Turtwig

Chronic Button wrote: »

People have different values. Because my values differ to yours does not mean I don't understand the topic at hand. I understand the desire to commit suicide very acutely. Unfortunately I am sorry to say I also understand the effects of suicide.

Others will have had similar experiences to me and come to different conclusions. That's life.

I wouldn't be such a fool as to tell others they don't understand their own values.

With respect, you're missing the point. No two people experience influenza the exact same way. Why should mental health experiences be any different? Just because a person get's the flu doesn't mean they can even say they understand that specific strain of flu they experienced. Everybody experiences things differently. Suicidal trains of thought could be vastly different from one individual to the next. It's always a very dangerous thing to suggest you understand the suffering of others because the reality is we all suffer and experience things very differently.

Odysseus

[QUOTE=Nonoperational;84014719


It is almost impossible for someone not suffering from the condition to appreciate just how bad it gets and how hard it is, but it seems to be the cool thing here to blast the guy and say that he is an idiot for suggesting people shouldn't take their own life and that you shouldn't be angry at people who attempt it or do it. It's not a selfish act in the mind of the person contemplating it because they are Ill and are not making a conscious selfish decision like a well person would, but that doesn't mean it's not ok to tell them it's not the right thing to do. You have to be honest and tell people all the hurt, pain, shame and trouble their actions will cause.

[/QUOTE]

I don't think people are saying that though, it is certainly something I have done with lots of people.

It can be really important to try get a person to see the damage and hurt such an action will cause; however, the way it is delivered it important.

People when the are in that state of mind don't see the impact that taking their live will have. People don't necessarily want to die; the want the pain to stop/go away.

I think you know it is not a case of just telling people what the impact of their decision will be on their family. This needs to be done with care and consideration, not just blasting out sound bites like in that interview. That is what I see as missing in the article.

People need to be heard not lectured.

Nonoperational

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't think people are saying that though, it is certainly something I have done with lots of people.

It can be really important to try get a person to see the damage and hurt such an action will cause; however, the way it is delivered it important.

People when the are in that state of mind don't see the impact that taking their live will have. People don't necessarily want to die; the want the pain to stop/go away.

I think you know it is not a case of just telling people what the impact of their decision will be on their family. This needs to be done with care and consideration, not just blasting out sound bites like in that interview. That is what I see as missing in the article.

People need to be heard not lectured.

Yes, of course. Jesus even if someone is in perfect health a lecturing tone puts people right off.

This is just an Irish Independent article, and he's just 16. Maybe his tone will be a bit different tonight.

Odysseus

Chronic Button wrote: »

People have different values. Because my values differ to yours does not mean I don't understand the topic at hand. I understand the desire to commit suicide very acutely. Unfortunately I am sorry to say I also understand the effects of suicide.

Others will have had similar experiences to me and come to different conclusions. That's life.

I wouldn't be such a fool as to tell others they don't understand their own values.

Is in not more correct to say you understand your own situation and how it refers to you.

It is like the recovering alcoholic understanding their own alcholism very well, but not alcoholism in general.

You made a very strong committment and thanfully despite whatever life has throw at you, you have possessed the personal resources to hold that position. That, however valid it is for you; does not apply to others who suffer with similar demons.

My name is URL

If the guy was going on the show, arguing for his right to die; and sharing his opinions on why other people in his position should consider that choice, people here would be tripping over themselves to support him.

Instead he's making the point that despite his own impending death, and the mental anguish that goes along with it; he still has a will to live.. and the poor kid is attacked for it.. called a self-centered ignorant asshole, and accused of causing hurt for others

eviltwin

My name is URL wrote: »

If the guy was going on the show, arguing for his right to die; and sharing his opinions on why other people in his position should consider that choice, people here would be tripping over themselves to support him.

Instead he's making the point that despite his own impending death, and the mental anguish that goes along with it; he still has a will to live.. and the poor kid is attacked for it.. called a self-centered ignorant asshole, and accused of causing hurt for others

He is causing hurt to others. Its emotional blackmail of the worst kind. I don't have anything but sympathy for the lad, what a horrible thing to be dealing with at 16 but ffs am I supposed to feel guilty now for having depression and the stress it puts on the people around me? He hasn't a clue about anyone else's life, anyone's else's pressures or what their limitations are.

shopaholic01

My name is URL wrote: »

If the guy was going on the show, arguing for his right to die; and sharing his opinions on why other people in his position should consider that choice, people here would be tripping over themselves to support him.

Instead he's making the point that despite his own impending death, and the mental anguish that goes along with it; he still has a will to live.. and the poor kid is attacked for it.. called a self-centered ignorant asshole, and accused of causing hurt for others

If a person left a note before committing suicide advising cancer patients to be grateful that they didn't have depression, and didn't need to kill themselves the reaction would be the same.

It's the fact that he is labelling suicide selfish that's the problem.

Nonoperational

eviltwin wrote: »

He is causing hurt to others. Its emotional blackmail of the worst kind. I don't have anything but sympathy for the lad, what a horrible thing to be dealing with at 16 but ffs am I supposed to feel guilty now for having depression and the stress it puts on the people around me? He hasn't a clue about anyone else's life, anyone's else's pressures or what their limitations are.

It's a huge leap for you to take from that article that you should feel guilty for having depression. Come off it.

Chronic Button

shopaholic01 wrote: »

It's the fact that he is labelling suicide selfish that's the problem.

Some people believe that suicide is selfish. As evidenced by this thread, you are not allowed to say that though.

eviltwin

Nonoperational wrote: »

It's a huge leap for you to take from that article that you should feel guilty for having depression. Come off it.

I don't feel guilty for having depression but having tried suicide, the whole point of his being on the tv, part of me wonders if thats what I would feel if I was reading this in that state. People shouldn't be dying by suicide but because they want to live, not because they have been guilted into it.

jigglypuffstuff

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't have anything but sympathy for the lad, what a horrible thing to be dealing with at 16 but ffs am I supposed to feel guilty now for having depression and the stress it puts on the people around me? He hasn't a clue about anyone else's life, anyone's else's pressures or what their limitations are.

I don't think he mentioned anything about depression directly, remember not all people commit suicide due to depression.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

It's the fact that he is labelling suicide selfish that's the problem.

But isnt he's opinion just a valid as yours or anyone elses for that matter??



I think one major thing that many have forgotten to take into account here is that this young man has had a death sentence handed to him. While everyone has been up in arms defending depression, has anyone stopped to consider that the lad himself is suffering from depression. I mean wouldn't you be depressed if you were told you had a few months left?