Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

nice_very

WOCM4 wrote: »

Also FUK RTE and their agenda.

this. another propaganda show to try and keep us down, divide us and confuse us, while once again brushing statistics under the carpet.

PickledLime

I suffer from depression; should I take my campaign to tell cancer sufferers to shut up and enjoy their last few days/months/years of life to RTÉ and ask for a platform to spout rhetoric about it?

Galwayguy35

Jernal wrote: »

I actually don't think they do. Yes, life may have dealt them a very harsh blow, but projecting their 'wants' and 'desires' of how life ought to be onto the lives of others is incredibly selfish. I can understand, in part, why it happens, but I don't think it's a justified form of criticism. But it's also a display of extreme arrogance to assume that your situation, no matter what it is, is actually worse than somebody else's. I'm not diminishing his struggle, but what I'm trying to do is actually point out that there could be someone alive right now who is actually in more pain and torment than he'll ever experience for the 16 short years of his life. And that this person might suffer more pain and torment for another 20.

So telling them, he's angry at them, isn't helpful and just because he's on his deathbed doesn't give him the right to berate others. Life is very hard for some and understanding that these people don't regard it as precious is something I'd love for him to do.

To use an analogy, a person badly wants a smartphone and sees tonnes and tonnes of other people enjoying using theirs so he wants one even more. However, in that tiny little corner there's an inexplicable group of people who hate smartphones but yet still possess one. Be it for work, family or other reasons, it doesn't matter they have one but they absolutely hate having one. Does this person have a right to berate them for having a smartphone and hating it? Does s/he have a right to berate those who have a smartphone but don't want one?

I know, life is a much more precious commodity than a smartphone but the point is to try to deal with the logic by analogy and remove the very strong emotional attachment that the concept of life invariably brings.

tl;dr
Just because you lack something other haves doesn't give you an automatic entitlement to criticise how others, you perceive as having that thing you lack, act.

This is a 16 year old boy who is going to die that you are talking about here.

Do you really think describing his situation like you did is appropriate?

You have no idea what pain and torment he is going through so I really don't think it is helpful to say that others may be suffering more than he is.

Fr_Dougal

I'd love to leave him in a room with Glen Hoddle for 24 hours, let them exchange views on illnesses.

Sir Oxman

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I don't agree with this. People who have had their choice taken away do not understand the circumstances and experiences it takes to get you to a place where you would consider choosing death.

Their criticisms of people considering suicide will probably be borne of resentment and bitterness or anger, not a real understanding of the situation, and I don't think that can be helpful or make anyone feeling suicidal sit up and take notice.

That is a very good point.

The_Kew_Tour

I had cancer and felt suicidal around same time about 2 years ago now. Cancer has ripped through my Dad side of family too over past few years.

Thankfully my experiences are thing of the past.

First my heart goes out to the lad for his illness. Too young.

However I am willing to hear his views on air( even though I am not sure it could be right move) before I give full opinion.

If what he says is true then I would be disappointed.

It's not a selfish act to commit sucide. It's a absolute dark place to be and scary place at same time.

My cancer at the time was not life threatening but there was chance it could spread and so on

So I have never had that lads experience, but I can't help but feel that he maybe about to talk about something he knows little about.

From my experience sucide thoughts make me more scared then cancer ever would. Maybe I'm alone in that but it's frightening to think what one moment of madness and a simple thought in your head can make you end your life.

I'm in great place now but if someone were to give me a choice of one of these dark illnesses again (as I shudder) I think I could get lucky with cancer again, but sucide has no way back.

nozzferrahhtoo

I have seen a similar line of "thinking" to this teen in many other realms of discourse.

For example in threads on these fora here about "I have decided not to have children, what is wrong with that?" you get people really angry saying "think of all the people who want children but can not have them!!!". As if fertile women are incubators that are admonished to reproduce so those who can not will enjoy it vicariously through them.

This conversation is different but the basis of the teens message is the same "How dare you choose not to live... when there are those of us who want to but can not".

This "you have to want what I want but can not have" mentality does not interest me in the slightest. Suicide is a serious subject and I think we need to offer more help to those depressed and raise awareness about suicide but the righteous anger of those dying and can not understand why anyone else might want to helps not a jot.

Turtwig

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

This is a 16 year old boy who is going to die that you are talking about here.

Do you really think describing his situation like you did is appropriate?

You have no idea what pain and torment he is going through so I really don't think it is helpful to say that others may be suffering more than he is.

It's a basic probability assumption. If we assume that a person is suffering more than any one person in the world the probability of that has to be 1 in 7 billion. If you narrow it down to person's living in Ireland it's still a really improbable figure. (1 in 4 million.)
Then you have to consider the questions, which is worse physical or mental torment? What age group suffers the most? What social class? What sex? To what extent can modern medicine alleviate suffering? etc. etc.

I have no idea how bad his is suffering, nor do you, but that's actually the point. His suffering is probably bad, and will probably get worse but he likely has no idea just how much other people are suffering too. I don't, you don't, nobody on this thread does. We've all probably witnessed some form of suffering in one guise or another but all we can do is make assumptions as to the scale of the suffering experienced by either ourselves or others. And the odds on any single one of us suffering more than everybody is 1 in several billion and rising.

Even if someone is suffering the worst possible way in the world it still doesn't justify them criticising the actions or conditions of others who they feel are not suffering as much as them. You could empathise with the frustration that the sufferer may feel, but it doesn't justify or give them the automatic entitlement to voice that frustration.

And just to be absolutely clear here this post is a digression of sorts. It's about the assumption that someone may be suffering more than somebody else.
It is NOT about the boy in the OP.

coffee_cake

KuriousOranj wrote: »

So he thinks people that commit suicide don't think they can turn to family/friends for help?Of course they know they can

Eh no, not always. Some do. Some think they're a burden. Some don't actually have family or friends.


Whoeever gave this child a platform should get some cop on.

Ave Sodalis

April O Neill wrote: »

Naivety is the main issue here. He's 16. I guarantee you we all said ill-informed things at that age. Luckily for most of us, these things weren't publicised. Add to this that he is likely railing against his prognosis.

This is some what irksome to me. I don't think his age should be such a factor in this. I know plenty of 16 year olds who have suffered from suicidal thoughts and would have a much better understanding of depression than a 40 year old who never felt suicidal. This mightn't be the case with this boy but his age should not matter. At 18, I've talked a number of people out of suicide, and helped peers out of depression and I had started helping before I was 16. I know several others who were around the age of 16 who also helped and through my experiences, know that there are many teens who would have a strong understanding of suicidal thoughts.

As for the boy in the article, if it gets even one person to stop for a second and think, then it's an achievement. No, it's not going to work for the vast majority. It mightn't even work for anyone but if it does, if it makes just one person go "hey! I see where this kid is coming from. Maybe what I'm thinking of doing isn't the way forward." then it's an achievement. What I like about it is that it's not going to be some random person saying things could be worse. It's gonna be someone showing them that life could be worse. It's not some meaningless words spewed by some happy, healthy person, they're words being said by someone who is going through a very real, very scary situation.

opinion guy

KuriousOranj wrote: »

So he thinks people that commit suicide don't think they can turn to family/friends for help?Of course they know they can,I knew I could when I slashed my wrists 3 years ago.People who commit suicide are at such a low ebb that they don't think they're life is worth anything,and that they shouldn't bother making themselves more of a burden on friends and family.Of course this lad is being naive.

Some people may be suicidal because of their family. Not eveyone has the same circumstances.

This kid seems to have his heart in the right place but I think he might get stick for it. Whoever is giving him this platform needs to cop on to themselves.

candy-gal1

Il just put my 2cents in here, I know im going to get slated for it as I have done before.
Everyones entitled to their own opinion imho on matters like this so Im not saying my viewpoint is right and everyone should think the same, but when people say things like "oh mental illness can be as bad as/worse having cancer/terminal diseases etc it just makes my blood boil!
You can pretty much get cancer/terminal diseases sometimes for no reason at all, non smoker/getting regular checkups etc, but depression is something that your not exactly going to die from unless of course you commit suicide because of it!
Now maybe Im wrong, and If I am and its proven that people do die purely from having depression, I actually do apologise.

And yes, tough love isnt a great approach with someone who has depression, but it can work in some circumstances, it is a MENTAL illness though - aka brain power/feelings/thinking or over thinking moreso imho.

Btw if your a functioning depressant - aka working/getting on with life with some setbacks on occaision then I actually applaud you tbh.
We have one life, this one, its not a dress rehearsal, so make what you can out of it and be as happy as you possibly can be.

starlings

I understand that depression is a sensitive subject, but why must it have protected status as the only possible cause of suicide, thereby bogging down all discussion into defensive reaction?

Suicide can be a response to a traumatic event by a mentally healthy person. Or, ironically in this case, it can be a perfectly reasonable decision by someone who is terminally ill and wants to end their suffering.

Turtwig

sup_dude wrote: »

As for the boy in the article, if it gets even one person to stop for a second and think, then it's an achievement. No, it's not going to work for the vast majority. It mightn't even work for anyone but if it does, if it makes just one person go "hey! I see where this kid is coming from. Maybe what I'm thinking of doing isn't the way forward." then it's an achievement. What I like about it is that it's not going to be some random person saying things could be worse. It's gonna be someone showing them that life could be worse. It's not some meaningless words spewed by some happy, healthy person, they're words being said by someone who is going through a very real, very scary situation.

I don't agree. This whole "if it helps one person . . ." line of reasoning only works if you conveniently forget about potential negative costs. Suppose for instance that it does help one person, but compounds the stigma and lack of understanding in this country. It's still an achievement of sorts but not exactly something that could be considered a positive achievement.

Personally, I think comparing conditions of people's misfortunes or grievances is never a good thing to do. I'd wager that many depressives know all too well that life could be worse and that's part of the problem. It's this "knowing" that they shouldn't be complaining that can often be so toxic. "Why am I sad? I got nothing I deserve to be sad about?"

Lone Stone

To balance this out we need a suicidal person to start a anti cancer campaign that'l teach d'em.

Ave Sodalis

Jernal wrote: »

I don't agree. This whole "if it helps one person . . ." line of reasoning only works if you conveniently forget about potential negative costs. Suppose for instance that it does help one person, but compounds the stigma and lack of understanding in this country. It's still an achievement of sorts but not exactly something that could be considered a positive achievement.

Personally, I think comparing conditions of people's misfortunes or grievances is never a good thing to do. I'd wager that many depressives know all too well that life could be worse and that's part of the problem. It's this "knowing" that they shouldn't be complaining that can often be so toxic. "Why am I sad? I got nothing I deserve to be sad about?"

This is true. A better education on mental health is definitely called for but I highly doubt we're going to get it. I think there's two extremes in general dealing with depression, the "ah they'll get over it" and the victimising "oh you poor thing, that's impossible to get out of"; neither of which work as both show depression as a sign of weakness.

eviltwin

I can understand why he would feel that way, don't agree with him one bit but I can understand. Sometimes when we see people "wasting" the chances we would ourselves love to have its hard to be objective. I've seen it myself with different issues but these people aren't being objective, they are looking at the issue from their own situation rather than the person involved.

He is entitled to his opinion on the subject but I have more of an issue with the media jumping on the bandwagon and giving him a platform to talk about it.

looking_around

As a person who struggles from depression. I HATE this. It only encourages that it's a "choice" we make.

You know, I never really thought of it as choice. the mental pain is severe, exhausting, everyday is a struggle. you just want a break from it.

Should I go around telling terminally ill patients how great it is that they'll die soon and nobody will call them selfish?????

I really wish mental health was better understood.
_____________

candy-gal1 wrote: »

And yes, tough love isnt a great approach with someone who has depression, but it can work in some circumstances, it is a MENTAL illness though - aka brain power/feelings/thinking or over thinking moreso imho.

This is another problem. the name mental illness, makes it sound like with the 'right' thinking we would be 'cured'.
But I'll have you know, that many doctors know that it can be purely chemical. In fact MRI scans of the brain can actually be used to diagnos "mental illness". (They don't, because of cost, but it's possible.)
This, only goes to show that many "mental" illnesses, are PHYSICAL.
And that is important to know and remember.

Ten of Swords

looking_around wrote: »

I never really thought of it as choice. the mental pain is severe, exhausting, everyday is a struggle.

I really wish mental health was better understood.

Sadly there is a long way to go before that ever happens, there is far too much unnecessary stigma associated with asking for help and a general "ah shure you'll be grand" attitude when you do approach someone who may not grasp how severe it can be.

Ireland's attitude towards openness regarding mental health is stuck in the 1950s

opinion guy

looking_around wrote: »

As a person who struggles from depression. I HATE this. It only encourages that it's a "choice" we make.

You know, I never really thought of it as choice. the mental pain is severe, exhausting, everyday is a struggle. you just want a break from it.

Should I go around telling terminally ill patients how great it is that they'll die soon and nobody will call them selfish?????

I really wish mental health was better understood.

Tell them they should choose not to have cancer.

(actually don't but its the logical equivalent)

St.Spodo

When I was his age I had lost a friend to cancer and felt what I'd describe as similar feelings towards suicide. I was, of course, very wrong and uninformed. My heart goes out to the lad, but I think he has made an ass of himself, as 16-year olds are wont to do.

starlings

eviltwin wrote: »

I can understand why he would feel that way, don't agree with him one bit but I can understand. Sometimes when we see people "wasting" the chances we would ourselves love to have its hard to be objective. I've seen it myself with different issues but these people aren't being objective, they are looking at the issue from their own situation rather than the person involved.

He is entitled to his opinion on the subject but I have more of an issue with the media jumping on the bandwagon and giving him a platform to talk about it.

This might also be said of people with depression and people who are suicidal.

It's an awful paradox, so I agree that RTÉ shouldn't be sensationalising it, but I think that people who say that "our" attitudes are stuck in the 1950s are sensationalising too.

opinion guy

St.Spodo wrote: »

When I was his age I had lost a friend to cancer and felt what I'd describe as similar feelings towards suicide. I was, of course, very wrong and uninformed. My heart goes out to the lad, but I think he has made an ass of himself, as 16-year olds are wont to do.

Well most 16 year olds would have this conversation in their bedroom, or with their parents, or in school. Someone has decided to give this guy a national platform, regardless of the consequences it has on him for his remaining time, no doubt to push an agenda. So I don't think its fair to say he has made an ass of himself - he is voicing his opinion in what he believes in what time he has. But I do think someone is takign advantage of him

eviltwin

starlings wrote: »

This might also be said of people with depression and people who are suicidal.

It's an awful paradox, so I agree that RTÉ shouldn't be sensationalising it, but I think that people who say that "our" attitudes are stuck in the 1950s are sensationalising too.

But people with depression or those who feel suicidal don't try and guilt others do they? Its a mental illness and asking people with a mental illness to think in a rational and logical way just shows the lack of understanding.

As I said I don't think the guy himself is at fault here, the fault is with RTE for letting him have a slot on one of the most watched tv shows in the country. That shows just how little they know about mental health, that they think people in the depths of depression will watch this and change. And I don't think that its any way sensationalist to say that's something that belongs in the 50's

I would expect better of our national broadcaster

looking_around

sadly, I actually wouldn't, I've long stopped watching RTE because of the 'backwards' thinking .

My name is URL

eviltwin wrote: »

I would expect better of our national broadcaster

I wouldn't

jigglypuffstuff

Psychology's a part of my course in university so here's my 2 cents

Im a firm believer that people who want to get help will get help and make an effort, those who dont wont. A big factor here is a persons approach to life be it optimistic or pessimistic.

And to the person who says suicide isnt selfish let me ask you something.

Imagine how it feels to be a mother/father/sibling/partner looking over one of your familys coffins thinking what you could have done/what went wrong,where someone so central to your life is ripped away in a flash never to return.

Dont say it isnt selfish to leave others behind like that.

eviltwin

pone2012 wrote: »

Psychology's a part of my course in university so here's my 2 cents

Im a firm believer that people who want to get help will get help and make an effort, those who dont wont. A big factor here is a persons approach to life be it optimistic or pessimistic.

And to the person who says suicide isnt selfish let me ask you something.

Imagine how it feels to be a mother/father/sibling/partner looking over one of your familys coffins thinking what you could have done/what went wrong,where someone so central to your life is ripped away in a flash never to return.

Dont say it isnt selfish to leave others behind like that.

Time to rethink your choice of course perhaps

St.Spodo

opinion guy wrote: »

Well most 16 year olds would have this conversation in their bedroom, or with their parents, or in school. Someone has decided to give this guy a national platform, regardless of the consequences it has on him for his remaining time, no doubt to push an agenda. So I don't think its fair to say he has made an ass of himself - he is voicing his opinion in what he believes in what time he has. But I do think someone is takign advantage of him

You're right, he shouldn't have been given that platform. I wouldn't like to be remembered for holding that view. It's not fair on him.

suicide_circus

He's both wrong and right.

Wrong in thinking that this will "convince" people not to resort to suicide.

Right in that suicide destroys families and leaves a mess no one can clean up.