Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

VinLieger

opinion guy wrote: »

Well that is an interesting point. Why did he chose to take this on as an issue ??
I noted that Brendan O'Connor did not ask him if he had friends or family who had committed suicide. I suspect there is a story there. He didn't randomly pick this cause out of the sky.

Well if thats is the case i would have a bit more sympathy concerning why hes taking up this cause but even if it was i dont think hes actually helping anyone with what hes doing

Seachmall

opinion guy wrote: »

Well that is an interesting point. Why did he chose to take this on as an issue ??
I noted that Brendan O'Connor did not ask him if he had friends or family who had committed suicide. I suspect there is a story there. He didn't randomly pick this cause out of the sky.

In the interview he said something he wrote got published by accident, he didn't plan on it, and that's how all this started.

Wibbs

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I guess what bothers me about the whole thing is your man insinuating that because it didn't 'exist' 20 years ago, that it's not real. Perhaps there WAS less mental illness back then, but it doesn't mean the people suffering from it today are just trying to be trendy. It's like when some older people talk about allergies and mock the 'no peanut' rule that exists in some school because in their day, nobody had peanut allergies. As if a kid whose throat swells up from going near one is somehow just being a crybaby. I think it would help a lot if older people, instead of insinuating that the youth of today are a load of whiny wet blankets, could think about the reasons why mental and physical issues seem to be on the rise.

Certainly and I'd be asking those questions myself. On the physical allergy front there have been a few suspects lined up, chiefly kids being less exposed to dirt than in the past, though other suspects like changes in the food itself and other environmental pressures are in the mix.

Mental illness? More complex I'd reckon. Widening of the criteria would bring more into the definition, a tendency(not here, but more in the US of A) to medicalise emotional states and treat them. I'd put social isolation and pressures as big factor compared to in the past. While social pressures were most certainly there for kids of my generation the intensity of them is much higher today with social media/arsebook/mobies and the like. It can be very easy for a kid to be excluded and in a publicly obvious way and in a publicly obvious way that's near permanent too. There's no real escape from it.

The embarrassing shíte I went through in my teens is but a memory or not actually. I can't recall any specific incidents that at the time would have me mortified beyond belief. Today that shíte would be on arsebook and the like, turning a week of redfaced shame into a permanent record for many more to see of me being a gobshíte. Basically we had much more leeway to be kids with all the daftness that comes with that, we had much more leeway to "fail". Kids today have it much much harder on that score. That pressure must have a clear bearing on suicide depression and self harming etc.

And yes I personally would add a pinch of "trend" to it too. Not in a "oh they're faking to be fashionable" BTW. I'm not saying people are faking it. I mean it in the sense of a "mass hysteria" kinda vibe. A dodgy meme in the culture. People being living interactive participants in culture can be easily influenced by same. It may also be a way to "fit in" for those who may feel left out. Pro anorexia and cutting websites/groups would seem to bear this aspect out.

opinion guy wrote: »

Wibbs I knew of stuff like this in the 90's and heard rumours of more stuff. These kinds of things are definitely not new. I think the difference is that social media has given it a transparency that wasn't there before.

Actually the 90's was when I started to notice it where I hadn't before. The trends in the last 20 years are certainly going up and going up way more than past underdiagnosis would explain. It would be interesting to compare a country like Ireland which was behind the cultural loop to other countries in Europe which were more "advanced" and see if there's a difference in mental health trends*. When I say behind the loop I mean that Ireland tended to lag behind much of Europe in a few ways. Less exposure to media of all kinds. EG up to the mid 80's if you were living outside Dublin and other cities with the "pipe TV" RTE was your lot. We were also a very conservative, much less liberal society until quite recently. It might show some extra pressures around today that we may not have allowed for.





*I recall an interesting study on testicular cancer that did just that. Ireland because of the clergy didn't get the oral contraceptive pill until a decade or more behind the UK, interestingly the rates of testicular cancer in Ireland were lower in Ireland and then started to rise and it seems to have followed the uptake of the pill(extra female hormones in the environment??). I must try and dig a link up for that actually. Fascinating stuff.

jigglypuffstuff

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

That was one of the most offensive parts of the interview for me.



Same here. That's why I said I thought he was coming from a place of bitterness (which is totally understandable). The last thing I'd feel for someone whose life was so grim that they felt they had to end it all would be anger.



I think it's just more socially acceptable to admit that you're depressed today.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

That's not the guy's point, though. Anger when someone close you to has committed suicide is totally understandable. He's angry that other people 'choose' to die when he has no choice in the matter. Not the same thing at all.

After another long analysis Im going to agree that you are right. This is offensive. However I'm inclined believe he means that he is angry at the fact that it happens, not with the people. He just couldnt put it in the right words. Has that ever occured to anyone?? he did say he has absolutely nothing against mentally ill people.

I do think it would have aided him to have a psychologist/psychiatrist on the show alongside him. or at the least a person to review what he was saying. At the end of the day its a kid though....

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

He wants to live because he has a lot to live for. Other people want to die because they don't (or feel like they don't). Telling people they're lucky they're not him and they should appreciate would they have is not really helping anything or anyone.

Pretty much everyone has a lot to live for, Its the way we perceive it that matters. He didn't exactly say that, his words were ( i think anyway) that they have a long way to go before they are in his position, which is true for some, not as true for others.

opinion guy wrote: »

Well that is an interesting point. Why did he chose to take this on as an issue ??
I noted that Brendan O'Connor did not ask him if he had friends or family who had committed suicide. I suspect there is a story there. He didn't randomly pick this cause out of the sky.

Possibly it wouldn't surprise me...The stats here in Ireland are shocking to say the least

Czarcasm

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I wish I could thank this a million times. You are right. People in general DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. They think you're being a moany hole or are just a bit down. Or that you 'shouldn't be' depressed, what with the great life you seem to have. That's the worst part of all of it for me. People in general are selfish creatures who want to make themselves happy. They don't want to hear your problems, they don't want to see your glum face, they don't want you to 'bring them down'. They can't comprehend that the despair you feel isn't the same as 'being a bit down' the way they get sometimes and that a pint or a walk isn't going to fix it. My own mother has point blank told me she 'doesn't want to hear it' and changed the topic to what she bought at Tescos. Most people are selfish, cold and have very little empathy for depressed people because depression isn't fun or entertaining. A lot of people just want the easy life where everything is nice and rosy. So no wonder depressed people feel totally isolated and alone.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I think it's just more socially acceptable to admit that you're depressed today.

So which is it- people don't want to know, or people do want to know and want to talk about it?

It's sending out mixed messages like these that are frustrating for people that actually DO care, but are dismissed as "people in general don't want to know".

Your experience is not unique by any means, I've seen it time and again myself, but people are people and it takes all sorts, but you shouldn't be so quick to say people don't want to know when you at least readily acknowledge that there are people who want to help, who want to understand you, who want to be educated.

The way to educate people is not to tell them "go educate yourself", your own profession will tell you that giving a student a book will be completely useless to them without the assistance of an interpreter, a teacher, to help them understand the various concepts and themes in the book.

It's the same with depression and mental illness- you have to inspire people to want to learn more about the condition, but learning theory by rote, sans interpretation, means the person has a disconnect between the theory and the practical experience, leading to a lack of understanding.

The interpreter or the teacher acts as a bridge between the theory and the practical, in the same way that a person suffering from mental illness can act as a bridge between the theory and the experience by imparting THEIR experience of mental illness.

How they impart this experience though is crucial to helping people understand and want to know more about the condition.

IzzyWizzy

Czarcasm wrote: »

So which is it- people don't want to know, or people do want to know and want to talk about it?

It's sending out mixed messages like these that are frustrating for people that actually DO care, but are dismissed as "people in general don't want to know".

Your experience is not unique by any means, I've seen it time and again myself, but people are people and it takes all sorts, but you shouldn't be so quick to say people don't want to know when you at least readily acknowledge that there are people who want to help, who want to understand you, who want to be educated.

The way to educate people is not to tell them "go educate yourself", your own profession will tell you that giving a student a book will be completely useless to them without the assistance of an interpreter, a teacher, to help them understand the various concepts and themes in the book.

It's the same with depression and mental illness- you have to inspire people to want to learn more about the condition, but learning theory by rote, sans interpretation, means the person has a disconnect between the theory and the practical experience, leading to a lack of understanding.

The interpreter or the teacher acts as a bridge between the theory and the practical, in the same way that a person suffering from mental illness can act as a bridge between the theory and the experience by imparting THEIR experience of mental illness.

How they impart this experience though is crucial to helping people understand and want to know more about the condition.

I don't know why you're implying that I'm contradicting myself. Those are 2 completely different points. I said it's (perhaps) more socially acceptable to say you're depressed nowadays, not that that means people want to or are able to listen to you.

I agree that people need to be educated about what mental illness is and how it affects people, which is exactly why I'm so against this perpetuation of some of the myths shown on Friday night's show.

Turtwig

Apparently in the fifties and sixties we had the lowest record suicide rates in entire world!
But I don't believe this is the full story. To digress to abortion for a second. We currently don't have any statistics on how many abortions are carried out each year for medical reasons. They're simply non existent. Something the ECHR was rightly peeved over. It's well know that doctors perform abortions for a myriad of reasons, yet no actual record of an "abortion" statistic is kept.
Today, we still have a problem with accurate suicide statistics - they're probably still lower than they should be. I'm not going to into it because other posters on this forum have done so before in excellent detail. I'd suspect that our suicide rate in the sixties was a lot higher too, but like the current mess with abortions, we simply pretended they never happened.

That said three significant changes have occurred to our society. We're richer, we've got more technology and we're less religious. Iirc, I'll see if I can dig up the links, our rates of suicide grew more when Ireland was going through boom periods rather than going through recessions. Instant access to information is great thing, but it's also a curse. In the case of bullying the bully is now armed with their most powerful weapon ever. It can create an inescapable prison for their victim. Sites like Facebook, can trick people into thinking other people's lives are relatively problem free or better than theirs. "Ohh look they're married." "They look so happy on that ski trip". etc. Whether we like it or not our main religion Catholicism is in serious decline. It regards suicide as a sin and was seen as something that would bring shame on others. I've heard a story once that in medieval times to prevent people committing suicide they'd fine and punish the family of those people who committed suicide. The idea being that life was so miserable for everybody, how DARE a person have the arrogance to take their own lives?
There is always a danger when you become more open or compassionate about something bad that that something may initially increase a little more because the stigma or shame associated with committing it has now been removed and people feel freer to carry it out.

Czarcasm

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I don't know why you're implying that I'm contradicting myself. Those are 2 completely different points. I said it's (perhaps) more socially acceptable to say you're depressed nowadays, not that that means people want to or are able to listen to you.

Izzy I don't want to be seen picking specifically on you or anything and I hope you wouldn't take it that way. Just wanted to say that before I comment any further.

I wasn't implying anything though. I was saying one post DOES contradict the other. My point is that they ARE indeed two completely different points. In the first one, you say people don't want to know, and in the second one, you're saying that it's (I'll even allow for perhaps) become more socially acceptable to say you're depressed.

Now, the reason the two posts confuse me is because from my understanding of what you're saying, you're saying that while it's perhaps more socially acceptable to say you're depressed, you still can't say it to anybody because you're saying they don't want to know.

That social acceptance didn't happen in a vacuum, it evolved over decades as people gained a greater understanding of mental illness. You have been unfortunate that you have struggled to explain your diagnosis to your family, but you shouldn't let that color your judgement of society at large.

I can understand why the knock back would make you feel that way, but I would hope it wouldn't put you and your friends off talking about it to people who actually WANT to gain a better understanding the condition.

I agree that people need to be educated about what mental illness is and how it affects people, which is exactly why I'm so against this perpetuation of some of the myths shown on Friday night's show.

I'm going to have to watch the full interview of this on the rte player, because I didn't, even in the video Seachmall posted, see any evidence of his spreading myths about mental illness. I saw him make a point of the fact that he was not talking about mentally ill people when he was talking about his campaign to stop young people committing suicide.

There likely has been an increase in the pure numbers of suicides in the younger population but I don't think there's been a huge fall in the over mental health of people. If I look at people in my extended family and local area from late 30s onwards there's a load of fellas who are alcoholics/drug addicts/no-hopers etc. etc. There's more than a few of them who when I hear stories about them in their teens it's obvious they had serious problems that weren't addressed. They didn't respond with suicide but the problems were never addressed. Why (if it actually has) suicide is now a more common outcome isn't something I can explain, but there's always been plenty of people with problems and until not so long ago if you were one of them and didn't come from a family with good social standing you were written off.

IzzyWizzy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Izzy I don't want to be seen picking specifically on you or anything and I hope you wouldn't take it that way. Just wanted to say that before I comment any further.

I wasn't implying anything though. I was saying one post DOES contradict the other. My point is that they ARE indeed two completely different points. In the first one, you say people don't want to know, and in the second one, you're saying that it's (I'll even allow for perhaps) become more socially acceptable to say you're depressed.

Now, the reason the two posts confuse me is because from my understanding of what you're saying, you're saying that while it's perhaps more socially acceptable to say you're depressed, you still can't say it to anybody because you're saying they don't want to know.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You've totally misunderstood. I said I think it's more socially acceptable to say you're depressed, as in (and this is only a maybe) people are brave enough to admit how they're feeling, that depression and suicide aren't as shameful as they might have been in the past. Why do you think that somehow means that people are willing to listen to depressed people and really understand what they're going through? As I said, they are two distinct points, one has nothing to do with the other, there's no contradiction there at all.

That social acceptance didn't happen in a vacuum, it evolved over decades as people gained a greater understanding of mental illness. You have been unfortunate that you have struggled to explain your diagnosis to your family, but you shouldn't let that color your judgement of society at large.

That wasn't really what I meant by 'socially acceptable to say you're depressed' but yes, you have a point.

I can understand why the knock back would make you feel that way, but I would hope it wouldn't put you and your friends off talking about it to people who actually WANT to gain a better understanding the condition.

This isn't a personal knock back. Most of my friends who suffer from depression have experienced something similar. I would be very, very wary of ever discussing my condition to anyone in real life (and friends are the same) because most people quite frankly haven't a clue and are likely to say something offensive or harmful/triggering. There is still SO much ignorance out there, it's unbelievable. Even most people who say they want to listen and understand, really don't. It's amazing how quickly most people start trying to 'fix' you by coming up with 'solutions' or just tell you you have no right to be depressed. I almost always come away from such conversations feeling ten times worse, so I prefer not to have them.

I'm going to have to watch the full interview of this on the rte player, because I didn't, even in the video Seachmall posted, see any evidence of his spreading myths about mental illness. I saw him make a point of the fact that he was not talking about mentally ill people when he was talking about his campaign to stop young people committing suicide.

I don't know who he's addressing, then, because mentally well people do not tend to commit suicide.

Call Me Jimmy

Well Izzy, trying to fix and come up with solutions is how people show they care I think. I think if a person with cancer only talked about how bad it is for them people would tire of it too.

IzzyWizzy

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Well Izzy, trying to fix and come up with solutions is how people show they care I think. I think if a person with cancer only talked about how bad it is for them people would tire of it too.

And would you try to come up with solutions for the person with cancer?

VinLieger

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Well Izzy, trying to fix and come up with solutions is how people show they care I think. I think if a person with cancer only talked about how bad it is for them people would tire of it too.

What solutions did he come up with or suggest?

Call Me Jimmy

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

And would you try to come up with solutions for the person with cancer?

VinLieger wrote: »

What solutions did he come up with or suggest?

I didn't say the kid, was referring to people in life Izzy was talking about. I wouldn't try to come up with a solution for people with cancer but smaller things to make someone as comfortable as possible given the circumstances.

I would have sensitivity about depression because I live my life in the state but not everyone can have that insight and not everyone's perfect. If someone was listening very kindly to you for a long time and you happened to mention a list of things that were problematic at the moment and exaserbate the bad feeling you have, it's only natural that in caring for you they would think how could they reduce that list and make you feel more comfortable at least.

IzzyWizzy

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I didn't say the kid, was referring to people in life Izzy was talking about. I wouldn't try to come up with a solution for people with cancer but smaller things to make someone as comfortable as possible given the circumstances.

I would have sensitivity about depression because I live my life in the state but not everyone can have that insight and not everyone's perfect. If someone was listening very kindly to you for a long time and you happened to mention a list of things that were problematic at the moment and exaserbate the bad feeling you have, it's only natural that in caring for you they would think how could they reduce that list and make you feel more comfortable at least.

That's the entire point. It's natural, but it's really not helpful in many cases to try to 'solve' the problem. Nobody would tell a person with cancer, 'just take a few multivitamins and go to the gym more and you'll be grand' but for some reason people think it's appropriate to tell a person with clinical depression to 'appreciate what you have' or list reasons their life is worse than that of the depressed person instead of actually listening.

Paddy Cow

From reading this thread, a couple of issues have been recurring.

1) The comments from a 16 year old were naive : I would have to agree with this. While I can see his point that given the proper care, suicide may be avoided unlike terminal cancer, it was worded in an insensitive manner. This is coming from a young lad who would give anything to live and he sees suicide as a waste of a life and given the proper help, the person might not have taken his/her life. It's pretty clear from reading the thread that most people accept that suicide is not as simple as making a choice to die and is the result of despair from a broken mind.

This lad had physical symptoms of cancer and he went to the doctor to get treated. With mental illness, it is very different. The person suffering has symptoms which are confined to their mind which no one else can see. If you saw someone struggling with a physical illness, you would insist on taking them to a doctor but a lot of people with depression go into robot mode and no one can see the anguish behind the normal routine they upkeep. They keep functioning and look to the outside world as if nothing is wrong, until one day they are found dead and suddenly everyone wonders what happened?

2) People who commit suicide are not selfish. They are desperate and see no other way out. To me, saying that someone who commits suicide is selfish because they don't realise the pain they will cause their loved ones is as moronic as saying that the loved ones who are left behind were selfish for not realising the pain their relative was going through.

No one wins in suicide and playing the blame game makes the tragedy worse.

I don't know what the answer is but I do think that more money needs to be spent on funding mental health and education on mental health. Another point that came up in this thread is that while family members and friends try to help someone with depression, they may just push them further away. This I have to agree with. There is not enough education out there about serious, clinical depression and how to deal with it. Friends/family members who have never suffered with it might initially be enthusiastic about supporting someone but they do not realise that they are in it for the long haul. You will not get over depression in a couple of weeks like you would a cold and family/friends run out of emotional reserves to deal with that person. We need more eduction not only on just the effect of depression on the person but also on how the person's family and friends deal with it.

3) Finally, for those who came here with an genuine interest in understanding depression, I would suggest giving the LETS ALL LAUGH AT PEOPLE WITH DEPRESSION a read. It's a real eye opener and reading other people's stories gave me the courage to go see my GP and start sorting my life out. I know we're not all the same but I can honestly say that even though that lad had the best of intentions, if I had seen his interview at my lowest point, it wouldn't have motivated me, it would have made me feel even worse for not being able to appreciate what life had given me. I would have thought "well if a 16 year old terminally ill cancer patient can have a positive outlook on like, then why am I such a loser who can't function day to day".

Some posters on this thread found his message inspirational and I would not try to take that from them but to others, it's only going to make them feel worse.

I hope that whatever anyone's mental state who saw that interview or reads this thread gets any help they need, whether it be someone struggling with depression or helping someone through depression

Czarcasm

Quality post Paddy Cow, I may have a difference of opinion with some of what you are putting forward, but I think as it stands there's been enough back and forth already.



I'd just like to put these resources out there for any young people who may be reading this thread and feel they are going through a difficult period in their lives-

http://ie.reachout.com/

ReachOut.com is a service dedicated to taking the mystery out of mental health. We aim to provide quality assured mental health information and inspiring real life stories by young people to help other young people get through tough times.

http://www.inspireireland.ie/

Inspire Ireland Foundation is a charitable organisation that helps young people lead happier lives. We are part of an international network of foundations with the same mission, operating in Australia and the USA. Inspire Ireland achieves its mission through the delivery of ReachOut.com, an online service to help young people aged 16-25 get through tough times.

http://pleasetalk.ie/

Please Talk was first launched in January 2007 in UCD. It was in response to the deaths of a number of students by suicide in the student populous. Please Talk urges students to understand that talking is a strength not of weakness, and if you’re experiencing problems while at college, there are people there who you can talk to. It promotes this message through a collaborative effort involving the various support services present in colleges up and down the country such as: chaplains, counsellors, student support officers, students’ unions, disability support services and many, many more.

If students experience problems at home, college, or in their private lives, they can log on to www.pleasetalk.ie, select their college and identify what services that are available that they might want to access. Please Talk is supported by the HSE through the National Office of Suicide Prevention, and is part of the National Mental Health Strategy.

For people that would like to help those going through a difficult period in their lives and they are worried that person may die by suicide, a book I found useful and easy to read is the "Suicide Intervention Handbook" (Synopsis available here).

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I agree that people need to be educated about what mental illness is and how it affects people, which is exactly why I'm so against this perpetuation of some of the myths shown on Friday night's show.

I just want to pick up on this point though, because it's an important one- There was no perpetuation of any myths surrounding mental health on Friday night's show. The OP took ONE LINE in an article, not even attributed to the teenager, and others took ONE LINE in a 20 minute interview segment, where the teenager specifically stated that they had nothing against people with mental health issues, and extrapolated their own meaning from it. I have also listened to the Radio Kerry interview and read through messages on facebook and twitter. The vast majority of comments were support and encouragement for the teenager and for his campaign. That's a pretty damning indictment for Boards, that a small section of posters would take such offence to something the teenager never even said nor implied.

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I don't know who he's addressing, then, because mentally well people do not tend to commit suicide.

He was addressing his peers, who choose to take their own life and die by suicide. An important point to note here, and I was pullled up on it myself yesterday when discussing this issue with a friend, is that one is encouraged to use the phrase "die by suicide" rather than "commit suicide" because since 1993 when it was decriminalised, choosing to take one's own life is not illegal.

As for the myth that mentally well people do not tend to choose to die by suicide-

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/government-suicide-decriminalisation-does-not-create-a-right-to-die-29101157.html


There are always exceptions to every general rule, the problem when people overlook these exceptions, is that they lose sight of the individual person.

Afollower

This may be off thread, but I'm just wondering if anyone knows how Donal Walsh is doing since his appearance on TV. I saw the interview and felt so very sad listening to him - he's only a young boy and he is dying. How very tragic is that!

DieselPowered

Donal Walsh sadly passed away earlier this evening. RIP Donal.

Kerrydude1981

RIP Donal,condolences to his family and friends.

DazMarz

Might not have agreed totally with some of his views, but this is a very sad time for his family and his friends. For someone so young to die, it is very sad. He had so much life left to live, so many things that he will never be able to do and so many people left behind who will miss him terribly.

RIP Donal.

chargerman

Its sad to hear this. RIP he was such a strong fella

St.Spodo

I didn't agree with the article he wrote, but he showed remarkable strength and seemed like a nice lad. R.I.P.

eviltwin

RIP Donal and my deepest sympathies and thoughts to his family and friends. I didn't agree with his article but he was a remarkable young man. Sleep well kid xx

Ann22

Rest in peace Donal sweetheart. My thoughts and prayers are with his brave family and friends:(.

SHOVELLER

RIP Donal. Very brave young man in so many ways.

Smidge

May he rest in peace.

traineeacc

Whatever his views were and whether we agreed or not I think the courage and bravery showed by him was remarkable. The loss of a young life is so tragic, he had so much more to do and experience in life,he barely experienced life yet went through more than most of us can ever imagine. Makes me feel silly for moaning about being tired.

Rip Donal

Dave147

VanishingActs wrote: »

I had a friend who got cancer at 15 and she had this attitude towards suicide, despite the fact that she had been suicidal due to depression before she got ill. I can absolutely understood having your view of life changed due to something as life altering as cancer but it made me sad to see her lose sympathy for people she used to very much relate to.

She passed away at 17 and I think she had every right to be angry that other people got to keep living, but it just saddened me that she acted like that towards people who were also struggling with illnesses- a mental illness is just as real as cancer.

Just wanted to comment on this, "a mental illness is just as real as cancer". While mental illnesses are terrible, comparing them to cancer isn't fair. My cousin is bipolar and has had a tough couple of years, but he's not dying, he has a good chance, as do most people with mental illnesses, they are not a death sentence like cancer so often is.

tinkerbell

RIP Donal