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Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE
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This is some what irksome to me. I don't think his age should be such a factor in this. I know plenty of 16 year olds who have suffered from suicidal thoughts and would have a much better understanding of depression than a 40 year old who never felt suicidal. This mightn't be the case with this boy but his age should not matter.
I know people can be suicidal at any age, that's not my point. Yes some 16 year olds will be suicidal, others won't. But 16 year olds are still mentally developing and hence will sometimes come out with ill-informed things (not necessarily about suicide, of course some will understand it better than others, just about anything really) that they likely wouldn't in even a few years time.
His age can't be ignored, IMO.0 -
Im convinced everyone on here has thinks this is just some kid who doesnt have a clue. so im done arguing the point with people who THINK they know better.
In any event while starting my developmental psychology assignment i skimmed to depression in my course book and heres what came up regarding suicide
" try to help him or her see the present situation with a wider time perspective and try to consider positive possibilites in the future. discuss reasons to live. if a person indicates that the family will suffer greatly..adopt this as part of your argument for finding a different solution"
Source : Passer & Smith: The science and mind of behaviour : ch 17 p 810 for those interested
I see great similarities between what that says and what that child tried to do. Ive gone past the point of opinions now these are general facts.0 -
Im convinced everyone on here has thinks this is just some kid who doesnt have a clue. so im done arguing the point with people who THINK they know better.
In any event while starting my developmental psychology assignment i skimmed to depression in my course book and heres what came up regarding suicide
" try to help him or her see the present situation with a wider time perspective and try to consider positive possibilites in the future. discuss reasons to live. if a person indicates that the family will suffer greatly..adopt this as part of your argument for finding a different solution"
Source : Passer & Smith: The science and mind of behaviour : ch 17 p 810 for those interested
I see great similarities between what that says and what that child tried to do. Ive gone past the point of opinions now these are general facts.
Yes, everyone knows this. No reputable book or therapist is going to encourage suicide. There is a world of difference between trying to help a suicidal person not to commit suicide and saying you feel angry with such people because they have a choice and you don't. There's no need to bring that into the equation at all.0 -
Now that we`ve established that it is normal and reasonable for a severely depressed person to contemplate suicide,what actual advice do those critics of a sixteen year old kid,actually have for suicidal people??Yes, everyone knows this. No reputable book or therapist is going to encourage suicide. There is a world of difference between trying to help a suicidal person not to commit suicide and saying you feel angry with such people because they have a choice and you don't. There's no need to bring that into the equation at all.0 -
Yes, everyone knows this. No reputable book or therapist is going to encourage suicide. There is a world of difference between trying to help a suicidal person not to commit suicide and saying you feel angry with such people because they have a choice and you don't. There's no need to bring that into the equation at all.
Anyone in his shoes would probably feel that way. However i would assume what he meant was he was angry as suicide is a waste of a life, an unnecessary death if you will...in other words he believes these people do not need to die.
he needs to die as lts going to happen naturally regardless of who or what intervenes
it puzzles me where people dont see that?? Ill even agree after review his words werent chosen wisely and perhaps an adult more in the know could have revised them. but in that sense any adult in the know about mental health should be able to see the message hes trying to send
I think at the end of the day its really about perception vs reality.0 -
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Kareem Cool Soapbox wrote: »Now that we`ve established that it is normal and reasonable for a severely depressed person to contemplate suicide,what actual advice do those critics of a sixteen year old kid,actually have for suicidal people??
well said.
I wish people would distinguish between understanding depression and understanding what to do about it. Anecdotes and sympathy are only good for the former.0 -
Kareem Cool Soapbox wrote: »Now that we`ve established that it is normal and reasonable for a severely depressed person to contemplate suicide,what actual advice do those critics of a sixteen year old kid,actually have for suicidal people??
Do you seriously believe that that's how it works ?
Someone suffering serious depression just needs a few well chosen words of advice. Just that right magic combination of words of advice and hey presto all their troubles go away ??? The depressed person will just go...'hey, you know youa re right ?? Why didn't I see that before ???' if you just say the right thing????
It doens't work like that.0 -
opinion guy wrote: »Do you seriously believe that that's how it works ?
Someone suffering serious depression just needs a few well chosen words of advice. Just that right magic combination of words of advice and hey presto all their troubles go away ??? The depressed person will just go...'hey, you know youa re right ?? Why didn't I see that before ???' if you just say the right thing????
It doens't work like that.
so how does it work?0 -
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fair enough...and the alternative is?opinion guy wrote: »Do you seriously believe that that's how it works ?
Someone suffering serious depression just needs a few well chosen words of advice. Just that right magic combination of words of advice and hey presto all their troubles go away ??? The depressed person will just go...'hey, you know youa re right ?? Why didn't I see that before ???' if you just say the right thing????
It doens't work like that.0 -
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so how does it work?
Too difficult to explain here. Too personal information I would have to share in order to explain it - I'm not doing that here. Too frustrating to try and explain it to people who think you should just 'man up and snap out of it' or that telling suicidal people they are selfish will help them. That you think it would be that easy - well lets just say that to actually help someone - it requires patience that people with such a 'snap out of it' mentality do not possess. But most of all - it requires someone that can truly listen. Such people are rare.
Many people who are truly, deeply depressed feel cut off and isolated. They cannot express properly what it is they are feeling often due to the intensity of the emotion and the fear of fully acknowledging it. What they really need is a skilled guide. A person who help them to navigate their way out of the darkness. A person who is a good enough listener that they know when to shut up and listen, who is perceptive enough to give the depressed person a helpful verbal nudge in the right direction at just that precise moment when it would make a difference, a person who is accepting enough not to judge anything the depressed person tells them, a person who is prepared to put in the time it takes to help them through it. Its hard, its painful, its messy, it takes time.
The ugly, ugly truth of it is this - the vast majority of people do not have time, patience nor interest in providing this kind of support to others. for the most part in this country when someone asks you:"How are you?" they don't really want to know - they want a happy entertaining answer and a bit of banter. THAT is the crux of the problem. Saying 'snap out of it' or 'you are selfish to think that way' is simply another way of saying 'I don't really want to hear your unhappy story, lets talk about something else'. This is a societal problem. It isn't something you can fix with gimmicks and catchphrases.0 -
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opinion guy wrote: »Too difficult to explain here. Too personal information I would have to share in order to explain it - I'm not doing that here. Too frustrating to try and explain it to people who think you should just 'man up and snap out of it' or that telling suicidal people they are selfish will help them. That you think it would be that easy - well lets just say that to actually help someone - it requires patience that people with such a 'snap out of it' mentality do not possess. But most of all - it requires someone that can truly listen. Such people are rare.
Many people who are truly, deeply depressed feel cut off and isolated. They cannot express properly what it is they are feeling often due to the intensity of the emotion and the fear of fully acknowledging it. What they really need is a skilled guide. A person who help them to navigate their way out of the darkness. A person who is a good enough listener that they know when to shut up and listen, who is perceptive enough to give the depressed person a helpful verbal nudge in the right direction at just that precise moment when it would make a difference, a person who is accepting enough not to judge anything the depressed person tells them, a person who is prepared to put in the time it takes to help them through it. Its hard, its painful, its messy, it takes time.
The ugly, ugly truth of it is this - the vast majority of people do not have time, patience nor interest in providing this kind of support to others. for the most part in this country when someone asks you:"How are you?" they don't really want to know - they want a happy entertaining answer and a bit of banter. THAT is the crux of the problem. Saying 'snap out of it' or 'you are selfish to think that way' is simply another way of saying 'I don't really want to hear your unhappy story, lets talk about something else'. This is a societal problem. It isn't something you can fix with gimmicks and catchphrases.
Just to address the part in bold. I think nobody said it was selfish to think such thoughts, I believe it was only stated that it was selfish to actually commit the act itself.
Otherwise a great post with many valid points0 -
opinion guy wrote: »Too difficult to explain here. Too personal information I would have to share in order to explain it - I'm not doing that here. Too frustrating to try and explain it to people who think you should just 'man up and snap out of it' or that telling suicidal people they are selfish will help them. That you think it would be that easy - well lets just say that to actually help someone - it requires patience that people with such a 'snap out of it' mentality do not possess. But most of all - it requires someone that can truly listen. Such people are rare.
Many people who are truly, deeply depressed feel cut off and isolated. They cannot express properly what it is they are feeling often due to the intensity of the emotion and the fear of fully acknowledging it. What they really need is a skilled guide. A person who help them to navigate their way out of the darkness. A person who is a good enough listener that they know when to shut up and listen, who is perceptive enough to give the depressed person a helpful verbal nudge in the right direction at just that precise moment when it would make a difference, a person who is accepting enough not to judge anything the depressed person tells them, a person who is prepared to put in the time it takes to help them through it. Its hard, its painful, its messy, it takes time.
The ugly, ugly truth of it is this - the vast majority of people do not have time, patience nor interest in providing this kind of support to others. for the most part in this country when someone asks you:"How are you?" they don't really want to know - they want a happy entertaining answer and a bit of banter. THAT is the crux of the problem. Saying 'snap out of it' or 'you are selfish to think that way' is simply another way of saying 'I don't really want to hear your unhappy story, lets talk about something else'. This is a societal problem. It isn't something you can fix with gimmicks and catchphrases.
I don't see the ugly, ugly truth you do.
There's a lot of sense in the way you describe how people should listen to each other. I know people like that, and they have been of all ages and backgrounds. I think the vast majority would help if they could, but they don't know how. And sometimes a stranger can be more open-minded than someone who you feel you might let down or someone who truly loves you and is upset at seeing you so low.
Catchphrases are designed to be simplistic and memorable, but that doesn't mean they're a societal motto.0 -
Kareem Cool Soapbox wrote: »Now that we`ve established that it is normal and reasonable for a severely depressed person to contemplate suicide,what actual advice do those critics of a sixteen year old kid,actually have for suicidal people??
I wouldn't have a clue to what to advise. If it were that easy, nobody would kill themselves. I would suggest that people who have no idea what they're talking about and have never experienced depression would keep their mouths shut when they feel the need to give 'advice'. If they really want to help, listening, trying to understand without judgement and guiding the person towards suitable services might help.Anyone in his shoes would probably feel that way. However i would assume what he meant was he was angry as suicide is a waste of a life, an unnecessary death if you will...in other words he believes these people do not need to die.
he needs to die as lts going to happen naturally regardless of who or what intervenes
it puzzles me where people dont see that?? Ill even agree after review his words werent chosen wisely and perhaps an adult more in the know could have revised them. but in that sense any adult in the know about mental health should be able to see the message hes trying to send
I think at the end of the day its really about perception vs reality.
Yes, I agree that most people would feel that way. Doesn't make it logical or right and definitely doesn't mean the opinion should be aired on television. Who cares what 'adults in the know about mental health' think? This kid is targeting suicidal people, who may very well be harmed by hearing stuff like that. That's the point here which you seem to miss time and time again.opinion guy wrote: »Too difficult to explain here. Too personal information I would have to share in order to explain it - I'm not doing that here. Too frustrating to try and explain it to people who think you should just 'man up and snap out of it' or that telling suicidal people they are selfish will help them. That you think it would be that easy - well lets just say that to actually help someone - it requires patience that people with such a 'snap out of it' mentality do not possess. But most of all - it requires someone that can truly listen. Such people are rare.
Many people who are truly, deeply depressed feel cut off and isolated. They cannot express properly what it is they are feeling often due to the intensity of the emotion and the fear of fully acknowledging it. What they really need is a skilled guide. A person who help them to navigate their way out of the darkness. A person who is a good enough listener that they know when to shut up and listen, who is perceptive enough to give the depressed person a helpful verbal nudge in the right direction at just that precise moment when it would make a difference, a person who is accepting enough not to judge anything the depressed person tells them, a person who is prepared to put in the time it takes to help them through it. Its hard, its painful, its messy, it takes time.
The ugly, ugly truth of it is this - the vast majority of people do not have time, patience nor interest in providing this kind of support to others. for the most part in this country when someone asks you:"How are you?" they don't really want to know - they want a happy entertaining answer and a bit of banter. THAT is the crux of the problem. Saying 'snap out of it' or 'you are selfish to think that way' is simply another way of saying 'I don't really want to hear your unhappy story, lets talk about something else'. This is a societal problem. It isn't something you can fix with gimmicks and catchphrases.
I wish I could thank this a million times. You are right. People in general DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. They think you're being a moany hole or are just a bit down. Or that you 'shouldn't be' depressed, what with the great life you seem to have. That's the worst part of all of it for me. People in general are selfish creatures who want to make themselves happy. They don't want to hear your problems, they don't want to see your glum face, they don't want you to 'bring them down'. They can't comprehend that the despair you feel isn't the same as 'being a bit down' the way they get sometimes and that a pint or a walk isn't going to fix it. My own mother has point blank told me she 'doesn't want to hear it' and changed the topic to what she bought at Tescos. Most people are selfish, cold and have very little empathy for depressed people because depression isn't fun or entertaining. A lot of people just want the easy life where everything is nice and rosy. So no wonder depressed people feel totally isolated and alone.0 -
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opinion guy wrote: »to actually help someone - it requires patience ... it requires someone that can truly listen.
This is absolutely spot on. Telling someone in the depths of depression what they need to do or that they should ask someone else instead is never going to effectively help them, it is far more likely to have the opposite effect and leave the person feeling that they cannot effectively communicate their problem to anyone else.
One perceived rejection could be all it takes for that person to withdraw into themselves and feel even more isolated and disconnected. They're not going to think "oh, that didn't go so well, I guess I'll ask someone else instead,"Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian
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I would suggest that people who have no idea what they're talking about and have never experienced depression would keep their mouths shut when they feel the need to give 'advice'
Yes, I agree that most people would feel that way. Doesn't make it logical or right and definitely doesn't mean the opinion should be aired on television. Who cares what 'adults in the know about mental health' think? This kid is targeting suicidal people, who may very well be harmed by hearing stuff like that. That's the point here which you seem to miss time and time again
So you think a kid who has fought for his life 3 times has never experienced depression? Who's been told he wont reach 18, never get married, fall in love, have kids , go to college, finish school. If you seriously think that young man has never experienced depression I would question your judgement greatly.
So i see, do you think that he is not allowed to express his opinion on the topic as long as it disagrees with yours? or other people suffering from depression? remember you yourself stated that depressed people perceive things differently. Not everyone will feel the same way the 20 or so people who keep stating this child done more bad than good. I can assure you if i seen his story when i felt down it would have made me feel better not worse. i didnt see that, but I did see similar.
Ive had my stint of depression in the past, mind you it was fixable thank god. I know how it feels to wake up every day and just feel so down and not be able to explain how or why
I can see you have great anger towards this due to your own personal experiences. I cant imagine where you've been or what you've been through and i do sympathize with you, but you must look at this factually in order to make a proper judgement
At the end of the day the child sent a positive message out there, If people wish to take a pessimistic view of his words then he or rte can't be held responsible.
Everyone is entitled to have their say regardless of what will happen it's freedom of speech0 -
So you think a kid who has fought for his life 3 times has never experienced depression? Who's been told he wont reach 18, never get married, fall in love, have kids , go to college, finish school. If you seriously think that young man has never experienced depression I would question your judgement greatly.
Very big difference between situation depression, being depressed 'for a reason' and clinical depression. You should surely know that?So i see, do you think that he is not allowed to express his opinion on the topic as long as it disagrees with yours? or other people suffering from depression? remember you yourself stated that depressed people perceive things differently. Not everyone will feel the same way the 20 or so people who keep stating this child done more bad than good. I can assure you if i seen his story when i felt down it would have made me feel better not worse. i didnt see that, but I did see similar.
No, I don't think a 16-year-old with no experience of mental illness should be allowed to go on national television and say things which are downright incorrect and potentially harmful. I've linked a number of friends who have experienced depression to the story and they were all horrified. 'Cheer up, it could be worse', which is essentially what the message is here, is fine when you're a bit down. When you're actually depressed, it's useless at best and dangerous at worst.Ive had my stint of depression in the past, mind you it was fixable thank god. I know how it feels to wake up every day and just feel so down and not be able to explain how or why
I can see you have great anger towards this due to your own personal experiences. I cant imagine where you've been or what you've been through and i do sympathize with you, but you must look at this factually in order to make a proper judgement
At the end of the day the child sent a positive message out there, If people wish to take a pessimistic view of his words then he or rte can't be held responsible.
Everyone is entitled to have their say regardless of what will happen it's freedom of speech
If people 'wish to take a pessimistic view'? I actually can't believe you plan to go into the psychology field. I'm not bothered whether you agree with me or not, but your entire understanding of this entire thing is exceptionally poor. You can't understand arguments, you can't see where people are coming from, you can't analyse points in a rational way, you need everything spelled out to you because you can't read between the lines. If you think 'looking at things factually' is the way to approach mental illness, you really might be better off in another field.0 -
While I don't see it as necessarily dangerous or dramatic I have the polar opposite view of life, I don't know how people can bring a child into this world, I find it selfish.
Life to him is a gift, to me it is just continuous punishment and I wait for the day that that punishment is over. So who is right? Is it a gift or a punishment. Two people holding opposite views that are equally valid. The difference is I would never try to convince him or engage with him telling him how it's a punishment, but he (not his fault because of his age) is telling me it's a gift. I don't like that. The same way he wouldn't like it if I said he was lucky to be dying. Again I wouldn't, but just trying to compare.0 -
Very big difference between situation depression, being depressed 'for a reason' and clinical depression. You should surely know that?
No, I don't think a 16-year-old with no experience of mental illness should be allowed to go on national television and say things which are downright incorrect and potentially harmful. I've linked a number of friends who have experienced depression to the story and they were all horrified. 'Cheer up, it could be worse', which is essentially what the message is here, is fine when you're a bit down. When you're actually depressed, it's useless at best and dangerous at worst.
If people 'wish to take a pessimistic view'? I actually can't believe you plan to go into the psychology field. I'm not bothered whether you agree with me or not, but your entire understanding of this entire thing is exceptionally poor. You can't understand arguments, you can't see where people are coming from, you can't analyse points in a rational way, you need everything spelled out to you because you can't read between the lines. If you think 'looking at things factually' is the way to approach mental illness, you really might be better off in another field.
Yes you read that correct, just because depressed people perceive that they have no choice, that is not the reality of the situation.
Do you think we should encouraged depressed people that their perceptions are true?
There's a huge difference between perception and reality, thats basics, and more or less the point he made. So before you tell me I cant analyze points perhaps you should take a look at your own analytical skills
I said nothing about looking at mental illness factually, I said you need to look at that kids words factually. If you are basing your interpretation of them on anything else besides the facts then all you have is an opinion nothing else. and we all know everyone has an opinion
You are in no way qualified to state what profession I may or may not enter, and id question your credibility to make such judgements. What experience have you to make such claims? besides being a sufferer which in turn is none?
I had one of my friends who suffers from bipolar disorder watch that last night, and he took no bad from it whatsoever.
You want to talk about understanding?? A dying child goes on tv trying to help a few people as he understands that life is precious, and he's more or less scathed for his efforts. Tell me do you understand that?? doubtful considering your attitude. Again analytical skills play an important role here
If cheer up it could be worse is generally what you took from that, then i'd suggest that you re-watch it and take notes, examine those notes and from the facts form a logical opinion. If you are unable to form a logical opinion then we cannot have a logical discussion
Yes his words could have been better chosen, Im agreeing with you on that, but like you said yourself read between the lines, theres more to it than his words, he's sending a clear message
There are hundreds of people who commit suicide on an impulse, situational depression etc. nobody's situation is the same and there are many who may have took positive from that. If it saved a few lives great, maybe it made parents question their own and ask if they needed help, maybe it encouraged people to go seek help...
Just because you and a few others took bad from it doesn't mean the whole target audience will.
Its a shame you cannot see the good in it, then again if you are a sufferer of depression thats understandable0 -
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I wish I could thank this a million times. You are right. People in general DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. They think you're being a moany hole or are just a bit down. Or that you 'shouldn't be' depressed, what with the great life you seem to have. That's the worst part of all of it for me. People in general are selfish creatures who want to make themselves happy. They don't want to hear your problems, they don't want to see your glum face, they don't want you to 'bring them down'. They can't comprehend that the despair you feel isn't the same as 'being a bit down' the way they get sometimes and that a pint or a walk isn't going to fix it. My own mother has point blank told me she 'doesn't want to hear it' and changed the topic to what she bought at Tescos. Most people are selfish, cold and have very little empathy for depressed people because depression isn't fun or entertaining. A lot of people just want the easy life where everything is nice and rosy. So no wonder depressed people feel totally isolated and alone.
I was reading this thread and this is what was going through my mind and you and the poster you quoted worded it perfectly.
I knew someone close to me who committed suicide and it came as a shock and I know someone very close to me who was very close to that man. They used to be partners. This person close to me made excuses when he died 'all he had to do was phone me and I'd be there for him'. He did nothing but reach out to her before his death and his calls were ignored.
Before his death, their relationship came to an end. She completely blanked him and kept him in the dark and no doubt hurting him which ran deep to his core. So cold and heartless.
It's said suicide is selfish. It's not. What's selfish is to expect someone to live in a world that they do not want to be a part off anymore.0 -
The comments I have read here from a lot of people here attacking this dying boy disgusts me, calling him naive,out of touch, insensitive etc.
You people make me sick, it must be so easy for all of you to criticize this boy and his family and his message for young people and pontificate behind your keyboards with your self-righteous bullsh*t. This website has gone to the dogs, people on boards.ie take something positive and inspiring like this and turn it into something negative.
Get over yourselves.0 -
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OCorcrainn wrote: »This website has gone to the dogs, people on boards.ie take something positive and inspiring like this and turn it into something negative.
Away with you so. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Cheers.0 -
Insect Overlord wrote: »Away with you so. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Cheers.
With an attitude like that it is difficult to think that you are a mod. Why don't you run along to the Irish forum where you clearly belong, like a good lad. "Cheers."0 -
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OCorcrainn wrote: »With an attitude like that it is difficult to think that you are a mod. Why don't you run along to the Irish forum where you clearly belong, like a good lad. "Cheers."
I've actually read this thread and taken on board both sides of the argument. You've just come in ranting and raving, based on your own misunderstanding of one side of the debate. If you have nothing worthwhile to say, don't bother saying anything.0 -
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OCorcrainn wrote: »The comments I have read here from a lot of people here attacking this dying boy disgusts me, calling him naive,out of touch, insensitive etc.
You people make me sick, it must be so easy for all of you to criticize this boy and his family and his message for young people and pontificate behind your keyboards with your self-righteous bullsh*t. This website has gone to the dogs, people on boards.ie take something positive and inspiring like this and turn it into something negative.
Get over yourselves.
What is positive about being insensitive towards people with depression?Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Insect Overlord wrote: »based on your own misunderstanding of one side of the debate.
On the contrary I understand it very well, probably more than you and a lot of other people here. "Ranting and raving", don't make me a laugh. I'm calling it as it is, most people here including yourself judging by your recent marks, are so full of it that they really have no clue.0 -
Im convinced everyone on here has thinks this is just some kid who doesnt have a clue. so im done arguing the point with people who THINK they know better.
In any event while starting my developmental psychology assignment i skimmed to depression in my course book and heres what came up regarding suicide
" try to help him or her see the present situation with a wider time perspective and try to consider positive possibilites in the future. discuss reasons to live. if a person indicates that the family will suffer greatly..adopt this as part of your argument for finding a different solution"
Source : Passer & Smith: The science and mind of behaviour : ch 17 p 810 for those interested
I see great similarities between what that says and what that child tried to do. Ive gone past the point of opinions now these are general facts.
So you'll argue the point with anyone... unless you are convinced that the other person THINKS better?
OK.
So you're working on your development psychology assignment?
So what?
So these are general facts?
The fact is that you've quoted an orthodox position, the orthodox position is not necessarily a statement of fact.
I'm imagining that that orthodoxy either explicitly or at least implicitly recommends against expressing anger about the person's contemplation of suicide.
& I doubt that anyone here would not recommend considering positive possibilities for the future, reasons to live, widening the time perspective... etc.
It may help. It may help on a given occasion. However, it might not help.
If it doesn't help, I don't recommend pointing to some text book & yelping: the facts! the 'general' facts!0 -
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What is positive about being insensitive towards people with depression?
"Insensitive", you are now insinuating that I said that when I never did, how do you know I don't suffer from depression and agree with everything that child said last night. Of course I would expect nothing less from the holier-than-thou brigade.0
This discussion has been closed.
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