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Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE
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Lyra I've already pointed out just one poster, well, another who I initially took issue with when they too assumed they knew all about suicide, mental illness depression, when all either poster and others have, is a bare minimum grasp understanding of their own mental illness.
Fcuk me even the normally rational Odysseus surprised me by linking posters to the DSM and telling them if they identify with any of the symptoms they may just be suffering from a mental illness. And nobody pulled up a mental health professional for possibly fostering hypochondria in an unknown audience. Odysseus themselves should have known better that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, a lot of it, can be fatal. Odysseus has years of education and experience in the field of mental health, yet expects people to be able to interpret the DSM from a quick five minute google search.
All too busy ripping apart a 16 year old's opinion that was aimed at young people, not once in the independent article was the word depression mentioned, and when he said "sleep on it", he meant for young people with suicidal thoughts to hold off on the knee jerk reaction to commit suicide when they're going through a rough patch, as distinct from going through depression.
Despair, is not depression, but posters here who have acknowledged that they suffer from depression, chose to interpret his words to suit their frame of mind. It's an interesting conundrum for anyone who says that the perception of a mentally ill person is their reality. It may be semantic to some, but for others it's a damn important distinction to make, that a mentally ill person's reality is colored by their perception.
Because perception and reality are 2 very different things, That's basic cognitive psychologyWhy?it only reinforces the negative perception of those suffering from a mental illness.
This is exactly what this thread has done!!0 -
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Eh,
I'm assuming we're talking about the same article, this is from the one linked in the OP.
Apologies for that, I did indeed miss the one line in the whole editorial piece that mentions the word depression once, when the campaign is actually about suicide. You'll have to take issue with the editor of the independent for their artistic licence on that one.He mentions people in "financial despair" which would suggest adults.
Trivial but relevant- I was informed last week of a girl who rang Childline because her father wouldn't give her money to buy phone credit unless she did the dishes! Anecdotal I grant you, but just one example of a teenager in "financial despair". I'm sure you wouldn't have to think too hard to remember a teenager that despaired their financial status, the "I'm soooo broke, FML" mentality.And again, it explicitly mentions his campaign is about suicide and depression.
One damn line in the article, which is not a quote attributed to the teenager, but rather an editorial comment that shouldn't have been let go, because the teenagers campaign as was stated many times in the article, is about suicide, not depression.0 -
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This is why-
I never said anyone couldn't interpret his opinion any way they wanted. Of course they can. But condescension and and a dismissive attitude doesn't foster discussion, it only reinforces the negative perception of those suffering from a mental illness. That's why I said I haven't learned anything from 30 pages of back and forth bitching and people waving their e-penis' about like it's a competition to see who can pìss higher up the wall.
Then why have you repeatedly argued with people who have interpreted his opinion as judgmental and insensitive? Yet you say people are entitled to their opinion, why can't you accept that some people don't view his campaign as something positive.
Just because someone doesn't agree with someone else's opinion doesn't mean they're being dismissive. The boy's heart is in the right place but the campaign was poorly conceived.But condescension and and a dismissive attitude doesn't foster discussion, it only reinforces the negative perception of those suffering from a mental illness
Also I find this slightly insulting. You appear to be insinuating that everyone who have posted in disagreement of the boy's opinion has a mental illness or are speaking on behalf of the mentally ill and because of our "attitude" are aiding in cementing people's negative views of the mentally unwell.0 -
It's basic 5-year-old psychology. The question is, how is that relevant within the context of this debate?
It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular some of the people who say they are mentally ill in this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?0 -
Apologies for that, I did indeed miss the one line in the whole editorial piece that mentions the word depression once, when the campaign is actually about suicide. You'll have to take issue with the editor of the independent for their artistic licence on that one.
[...]
One damn line in the article, which is not a quote attributed to the teenager, but rather an editorial comment that shouldn't have been let go, because the teenagers campaign as was stated many times in the article, is about suicide, not depression.
Oh please.0 -
It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular the mentally ill of this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?
That would be a matter of perception.0 -
It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular the mentally ill of this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?
All due respect but you are the one arguing perception and reality.
This young man gave his perception of suicide.
People who have lost loved ones due to mental illness face the reality of suicide.0 -
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It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular the mentally ill of this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?
That's so ignorant and insensitively worded (not to mention inaccurate), I'm not even going to go there.
Your second point - Has that not been addressed over and over again? It's not about right and wrong. That's such a childish, black and white view of seeing a complex situation. The issue isn't whether he's right or wrong, the issue is how his 'target audience' are going to react to what he said. As he has no real knowledge of mental illness, I think letting him air his views on national television was a mistake by RTE.0 -
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?
Person A : You're <insert statement here>.
Person b : <estimate response here>
Is Person A wrong for saying it? Or is Person B's perception of what he said wrong?
What you're doing is taking the conversation beyond the levels of the pedantic. It's a bit like going :
"It's true! He hit me last night!"
"Ahh! But what is 'truth' my dear?"
Totally irrelevant because in day to day language everyone knows what 'truth' is. Nobody probably knows what the ultimate meaning of 'truth' is but if I said it's the truth that I never stole anything from you, everyone reading this here knows exactly what I mean by this statement and that is all that is necessary.
Philosophical perceptions and layers, while interesting, are just so unnecessary.
You already answered your question several posts back when you admitted his choice of words was poor.0 -
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Trivial but relevant- I was informed last week of a girl who rang Childline because her father wouldn't give her money to buy phone credit unless she did the dishes! Anecdotal I grant you, but just one example of a teenager in "financial despair". I'm sure you wouldn't have to think too hard to remember a teenager that despaired their financial status, the "I'm soooo broke, FML" mentality.
I don't get the point you're making with this. He refers to financial despair as something which might drive someone to suicide. Even if he is talking about teenagers I think it would take a little bit more than a lack of phone credit!One damn line in the article, which is not a quote attributed to the teenager, but rather an editorial comment that shouldn't have been let go, because the teenagers campaign as was stated many times in the article, is about suicide, not depression.
Suicide and depression, more generally mental illness, go hand in hand. It's pointless to try to separate the two. Therefore his campaign will focus on both.0 -
I think no body pulled me up; because in fact I was responding to tomthetank's questions and request for information as oppessed to fostering hypochondria.
Judging by the thanks I got off tom I think I may have given him the information he was looking for, though only he can clarify that.
You misssed the part when I advised against self-diagnosis then? Are you saying we should not allow non-professionals to read the ICD-10.
If you want to learn about depression or any of the other various disorders it is not a bad place to start. Since you are reading it for your onw educational purposes; there should be no issue.
It you take information and use it in a inappropriate manner, well, no one but the person who misuses the information is responsible for that.
Such when you goggle depressive episode you get the same criteria and wiki gives you links to both texts in the first line. So really tom got no more that what he would have got if he goggled it himself.
In the context of this thread I have no problem suggesting such resources if a person is interested and wants to learn about a topic or even an individual disorder.
Odysseus I'm only saying it was a bad call given that you don't have any background information on the poster in order to form a clearer picture of their mental state to decide whether you could be responsible for giving them information on anything. It'd be the very same if someone walked into your clinic- you wouldn't just hand them out the information without a clearer understanding of why they sought it.
I know you said not to self diagnose, but you might as well have said "don't try this at home". It's not only tom is reading your posts btw. It's one of the long standing issues I've had with the PI and RI forums, giving out advice without being privy to the fuller picture, because you're only getting what the OP thinks is relevant, but that's a discussion to be had elsewhere.0 -
Odysseus I'm only saying it was a bad call given that you don't have any background information on the poster in order to form a clearer picture of their mental state to decide whether you could be responsible for giving them information on anything. It'd be the very same if someone walked into your clinic- you wouldn't just hand them out the information without a clearer understanding of why they sought it.
I know you said not to self diagnose, but you might as well have said "don't try this at home". It's not only tom is reading your posts btw. It's one of the long standing issues I've had with the PI and RI forums, giving out advice without being privy to the fuller picture, because you're only getting what the OP thinks is relevant, but that's a discussion to be had elsewhere.
He didn't offer the poster advice he simply provided him with some information that the poster requested. Also it would have only taken a quick google search for the poster to find the information for himself. There's not point hiding information from people, in anything, it's important to educate people about mental illnesses so they can seek help if they think they might be unwell or so they can recognise if someone they know is unwell.0 -
That's so ignorant and insensitively worded (not to mention inaccurate), I'm not even going to go there.
Your second point - Has that not been addressed over and over again? It's not about right and wrong. That's such a childish, black and white view of seeing a complex situation. The issue isn't whether he's right or wrong, the issue is how his 'target audience' are going to react to what he said. As he has no real knowledge of mental illness, I think letting him air his views on national television was a mistake by RTE.
It may be insensitively worded to you!! however i found it quite insensitive of you to say the child was bitter and insensitive. im not going to be held responsible for how you perceive what I say. if you cant read it for what it is then i dont know what to say to you
Thats a very far cry from what you said about how bitter and insensitive his view is, you say it like your opinion matters more than his
I would love the parents of this child to view this thread, just to see some of the reactions of the people that the poor lad tried to reach. Terrible indeedPerson A : You're <insert statement here>.
Person b : <estimate response here>
Is Person A wrong for saying it? Or is Person B's perception of what he said wrong?
What you're doing is taking the conversation beyond the levels of the pedantic. It's a bit like going :
"It's true! He hit me last night!"
"Ahh! But what is 'truth' my dear?"
Totally irrelevant because in day to day language everyone knows what 'truth' is. Nobody probably knows what the ultimate meaning of 'truth' is but if I said it's the truth that I never stole anything from you, everyone reading this here knows exactly what I mean by this statement and that is all that is necessary.
Philosophical perceptions and layer, while interesting, are just so unnecessary.
You already answered your question several posts back when you admitted his choice of words was poor.
Wording is poor agreed, but the message it sent was not0 -
It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular the mentally ill of this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?
First, thank you for categorizing us all into one group, FYI we're not all mentally unwell. Second, he was insensitive but no one said he was an idiot; you are clearly putting words in our mouths.
Finally, I really don't get why you keep bringing up perception. Many posters who are not mentally ill believe him to be insensitive and uninformed so, in that sense, there are not wrong in their perception. Even if their perception was "wrong" or influenced by their mental state it does not take away from the fact that for some his message would be seen as hurtful.0 -
It may be insensitively worded to you!! however i found it quite insensitive of you to say the child was bitter and insensitive. im not going to be held responsible for how you perceive what I say. if you cant read it for what it is then i dont know what to say to you
Thats a very far cry from what you said about how bitter and insensitive his view is, you say it like your opinion matters more than his
I would love the parents of this child to view this thread, just to see some of the reactions of the people that the poor lad tried to reach. Terrible indeed
Please just TRY TO READ AND UNDERSTAND what people post. You keep asking the same question over and over and over again because you can't seem to process the information. You have this obsession with perception - how do you not get that EVERYTHING is about perception? That's why people who speak in public need to be careful about how it will come across.
Imagine you buy some nice shoes, and I say "oh, nice shoes". I genuinely like your shoes and was intending to give you a compliment, but you took it as a sarcastic comment as you thought my intonation was a bit flat and now you hate me and think I'm a nasty cow. Who is 'right'? Who is 'wrong'?0 -
That's how you're seeing it. That's how you seem to see a lot of posts on here. What it looks like to me is that YOU have a dismissive attitude of anything you don't like. Of course people are heated - it's a discussion forum about an emotional topic. What have YOU added of value? You came on to the thread and complained about it.
That wouldn't be you suggesting that me having an opinion is being a moany hole would it? I read quietly through 30 pages hoping to learn something, I learned nothing, and your post was the straw that broke a very frustrated camel's back. Otherwise I would've happily listened and learned and maybe after listening and learning from other people's stories, might have felt comfortable enough to share my own experiences of suicide and mental illness, or more specifically depression.My flatmate has read a lot of the thread and has found it extremely enlightening. He would have previously been of the 'ahh pull yourself together' school of thought but he's now gained a whole new perspective. We watched the excellent video of the lecture about depression together. He doesn't see it the way you do at all.
Well that's genuinely heartening to hear. At least one person has learned something they didn't know before and it has changed their perception of those who suffer from suicidal ideation and depression. That's all this teenager was trying to do either, was change people's perspectives and try and get them to seek help before they sink into despair and see suicide as the only way to end their suffering.0 -
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That's how you're seeing it. That's how you seem to see a lot of posts on here. What it looks like to me is that YOU have a dismissive attitude of anything you don't like. Of course people are heated - it's a discussion forum about an emotional topic. What have YOU added of value? You came on to the thread and complained about it.
That wouldn't be you suggesting that me having an opinion is being a moany hole would it? I read quietly through 30 pages hoping to learn something, I learned nothing, and your post was the straw that broke a very frustrated camel's back. Otherwise I would've happily listened and learned and maybe after listening and learning from other people's stories, might have felt comfortable enough to share my own experiences of suicide and mental illness, or more specifically depression.My flatmate has read a lot of the thread and has found it extremely enlightening. He would have previously been of the 'ahh pull yourself together' school of thought but he's now gained a whole new perspective. We watched the excellent video of the lecture about depression together. He doesn't see it the way you do at all.
Well that's genuinely heartening to hear. At least one person has learned something they didn't know before and it has changed their perception of those who suffer from suicidal ideation and depression. That's all this teenager was trying to do either, was change people's perspectives and try and get them to seek help before they sink into despair and see suicide as the only way to end their suffering.0 -
You have this obsession with perception - how do you not get that EVERYTHING is about perception? That's why people who speak in public need to be careful about how it will come across.
Imagine you buy some nice shoes, and I say "oh, nice shoes". I genuinely like your shoes and was intending to give you a compliment, but you took it as a sarcastic comment as you thought my intonation was a bit flat and now you hate me and think I'm a nasty cow. Who is 'right'? Who is 'wrong'?
This is what many posters have been saying all along. His heart might be in the right place and he might have the best of intentions but his opinion and beliefs, based on a bad choice of words, could be perceived as judgy, shaming, hurtful and insensitive by some people battling depression or contemplating suicide.0 -
It may be insensitively worded to you!!
So you don't think that it was insensitively worded, the bit where you said:It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular some of the people who say they are mentally ill in this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.however i found it quite insensitive of you to say the child was bitter and insensitive. im not going to be held responsible for how you perceive what I say. if you cant read it for what it is then i dont know what to say to you
I'm finding it difficult to read it for what it is & not see it as insensitive, when you said:... some of the people who say they are mentally ill in this forum...
You, however, think that saying something like this is:..a very far cry from what you said about how bitter and insensitive his view is..
Finally, you add:I would love the parents of this child to view this thread, just to see some of the reactions of the people that the poor lad tried to reach. Terrible indeed
Why would you love that?
Seriously?
If you think it is that 'terrible', why?0 -
It is relevant due to the way that young mans words are being perceived by many, in particular some of the people who say they are mentally ill in this forum who have voiced the opinion that he is insensitive and idiotic in his words.
Let me ask you this. You have stated that the mentally ill people will not take this the way it was intended. So is he wrong for saying it? Or is their perception of what he said wrong?
Hang on... did you edit & replace 'the mentally ill of this forum' with 'some of the people who say they are mentally ill in this forum'?
Nice.0 -
Odysseus I'm only saying it was a bad call given that you don't have any background information on the poster in order to form a clearer picture of their mental state to decide whether you could be responsible for giving them information on anything. It'd be the very same if someone walked into your clinic- you wouldn't just hand them out the information without a clearer understanding of why they sought it.
I know you said not to self diagnose, but you might as well have said "don't try this at home". It's not only tom is reading your posts btw. It's one of the long standing issues I've had with the PI and RI forums, giving out advice without being privy to the fuller picture, because you're only getting what the OP thinks is relevant, but that's a discussion to be had elsewhere.
In such a case as this I would not want background info on the person. I am in a discussion forum; I'm not here to assess someones menat state, as I'm not here in a profession capacity it is titally different to someone coming into a clinic where I'm employed.
I am not dealing with his personal situation, I am answering a question in general about depressive states, there is a significant difference there.
That difference is the reason why I do not post in the other forums you mention. I have referred people to the the ICD-10 for informational purposes many times, I have also discussed such material in the psych forum.
If we where to censor posts because someone might use the information contained in them in a manner which we disagree with, we would post very little.
I think we are just going to disagree on this one.0 -
General General wrote: »Hang on... did you edit & replace 'the mentally ill of this forum' with 'some of the people who say they are mentally ill in this forum'?
Nice.
Sure what difference does it make? We're all addicted to boards anyway.0 -
I would love the parents of this child to view this thread, just to see some of the reactions of the people that the poor lad tried to reach. Terrible indeed
So you think that the posters who have stated that they have a mental illness or previously suffered from a mental illness aren't being appreciative of this boy's effort to "reach them"?
If anyone on here has the right to comment on this boys actions it is the people he is trying to help. Based on what I've read many if not all of these people agree that his intentions were good, that he simply trying to help those most desperately in need, no one is refuting that.0 -
Well that's genuinely heartening to hear. At least one person has learned something they didn't know before and it has changed their perception of those who suffer from suicidal ideation and depression..
Ahhhhhhhhh. Fair play... after all;
I came into this thread hoping to learn more about understanding suicide and mental illness. I learned nothing, and I don't think anyone reading this thread so far will have learned anything other than this thread is one almighty píssing contest with posters who want to listen, and posters who want to understand and be educated, being pretty much told "oh you don't want to listen and you're too stupid to understand anyway".
Apology accepted.0 -
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Lyra Fangs wrote: »Then why have you repeatedly argued with people who have interpreted his opinion as judgmental and insensitive? Yet you say people are entitled to their opinion, why can't you accept that some people don't view his campaign as something positive.
I can of course accept that some people don't view his campaign as something positive, can those same people not accept that I am in fact neutral as to where I stand on the effectiveness of his campaign and the platform on which he chose to air his views? I don't know too many teenagers who will be at home on a Saturday night watching that shìte, their parents maybe, but their parents were not the intended audience, at least not by his own words anyway. A much better platform would have been an orchestrated online social media campaign, but how and ever, at least it's got some of us talking about it here now, and it's already responsible for changing one person's perspective.Just because someone doesn't agree with someone else's opinion doesn't mean they're being dismissive. The boy's heart is in the right place but the campaign was poorly conceived.
Well I'm trying to address posters here and I'm being accused of being dismissive. You'll have to take my word for it but I'm far from being dismissive, whereas others have been far more vocal in their dismissal. His heart is indeed in the right place, and yes, the campaign is poorly conceived and ill thought out and even worse execution.Also I find this slightly insulting. You appear to be insinuating that everyone who have posted in disagreement of the boy's opinion has a mental illness or are speaking on behalf of the mentally ill and because of our "attitude" are aiding in cementing people's negative views of the mentally unwell.
I can only yet again ensure you that I haven't come on here to be insulting to anyone. Up to page 30 it was one poster to another essentially saying "you know nawtheeng!". That wasn't a discussion, and when one poster shared their experiences of suicide, depression and mental illness, they were STILL told they know nothing.
I didn't suggest at all that anyone who disagreed with the teenagers opinion was suffering from a mental illness, I said that the posters who had shared their experiences of suffering from depression who were being condescending to other posters are, as you put it, aiding in the cementing of a negative view of the mentally unwell. I said their reality was colored by their perception. I said that some posters had a bad attitude. There is no link between mental illness and a bad attitude, you came up with that yourself.0
This discussion has been closed.
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