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Is Eircom sabotaging SKY or is SKY just useless?

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    #92
    aindriu80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    I don't expect the regulator to do much but I can't help but think Sky Ireland is a pretty stupid company. If they don't have the necessary hardware to keep speeds up who can stick them ? They can't keep this lark going. I will make a formal complaint tomorrow.

    I know Eircom won't go out of their way to facilitate Sky but they are not Enron ?


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    #93
    Danny Boy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭Danny Boy


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    Not in my experience anyway.
    Chop Chop wrote: »
    One word..........Eircom. It speaks volumes, did sky really believe eircom were a good company that could deliver broadband?:rolleyes:

    It's got nothing to do with eircom, do a google search on 'sky broadband contention' and you'll see it's their business model here and in the uk, put lots of people on the network at what seem like good headline speeds then contend them down, it's cost management


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    #94
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Danny Boy wrote: »
    It's got nothing to do with eircom, do a google search on 'sky broadband contention' and you'll see it's their business model here and in the uk, put lots of people on the network at what seem like good headline speeds then contend them down, it's cost management

    But their using eircom's lines, so you pay line rental, so it's eircom in window dressing.


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    #95
    Danny Boy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭Danny Boy


    They use bt first and foremost, then eircom where there is no bt LLU presence, and like any operator sky make their own decisions both here and in the uk about how they manage their customers' traffic profiles, so it's their decision to throttle customers and it's their decision to offer contended broadband, this has been discussed widely on uk forums, http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2013/01/22/sky_broadband_adding_customers_first_capacity_after/


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    #96
    aindriu80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    But their using eircom's lines, so you pay line rental, so it's eircom in window dressing.

    It has to be a simple problem. Sky either doesn't want to spend the cash to ensure contention free broadband or never figured it would be a problem to begin with.


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    #97
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    And they are introducing deep packet inspection branded as 'network level parental control' this year too. :)


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    #98
    java
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭java


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    But their using eircom's lines, so you pay line rental, so it's eircom in window dressing.

    They use BT first. Then eircom LLU. This is a Sky problem, not eircom.


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    #99
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    java wrote: »
    They use BT first. Then eircom LLU. This is a Sky problem, not eircom.

    I think you mean bitstream not LLU


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    #100
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Sky's broadband product is managed from a technical point of view by BT Ireland, but it's up to Sky to specify service levels, pay for capacity on routes etc.

    BT has its own DSLAMs (the device your modem connects to) in some larger exchanges. So, if you're in one of those areas, you're directly connected to the BT Ireland network.

    In other areas, they use Eircom's access network, but the data would be passed back to BT Ireland (for Sky) at the nearest node where there's an interconnection and BT would handle the backhaul themselves over their network.

    Sky's service running slow, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the technical capabilities of the Eircom or BT Ireland networks. You get as much capacity on those networks as you're willing to pay for.

    If backhaul's clogged up, Sky need to purchase more capacity. It's as simple as that.

    Both Eircom and BT have pretty excellent NGN networks at this stage, so capacity (other than into some very small exchanges not on the NGN) is a non-issue.

    If your speeds are slower on Sky compared to your previous provider, then that's most definitely a lack of capacity on Sky's side, as your line was working fine before so it's not an issue on the local network.

    However, if you always had slow broadband, then it's quite possible there's insufficient capacity to the exchange or that you've a very long line / line problems.

    You need to complain to Sky and keep complaining until they sort it out!

    It seems Sky have similar problems in the UK too :

    http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/sky-broadband-slow-sky-admits-blames-subscriber-boost-50010236/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21164871

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/22/sky_broadband_adding_customers_first_capacity_after/

    It's possible that Sky Ireland's service has been way more successful in terms of sales than they'd anticipated. Sky have a huge customer base in Ireland and also pretty effective sales teams. So, perhaps they've hooked up a LOT more people than they'd anticipated and will add capacity?

    Hopefully they do!
    Chop Chop wrote: »
    But their using eircom's lines, so you pay line rental, so it's eircom in window dressing.

    They're using eircoms *access network* which is just the local bits i.e. DSLAMs in some exchanges and the copper wiring. The backhaul's nothing to do with eircom.

    I'd hope it's just teething problems and Sky sort it out!


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    #101
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    But their using eircom's lines, so you pay line rental, so it's eircom in window dressing.

    You obviously don't like Eircom... but this really isn't Eircom's fault!


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    #102
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    It's like this :

    LLU:
    <Your Modem>
    [eircom copper wire]
    <BT DSLAM>
    [Sky's backhaul]----<public internet>

    Bitstream:

    <Your Modem>
    [eircom copper wire]
    <eircom DSLAM>
    <handover point to BT>----[Sky's backhaul]----<public internet>

    The handover points are usually as close as is economically practical to your exchange. So, if you're on a small exchange in some area, it's likely that the traffic will pass back to BT at the nearest big exchange where BT has a node.


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    #103
    aindriu80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    LLU is not new technology to improve speeds or contention... it just allows another company in there.

    They have to actually upgrade the exchanges and then provide the back end for low contention. Of course some boxes are already upgraded but after that I don't have a clue how the likes of Sky operate or what service their customers will realistically get.

    Maybe Sky got more customers than they expected but we are not a high density population so I think they screwed up somewhere. Eircom are proper slackers and take forever to do anything.


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    #104
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    You are in the same position as I am, if only I could get UPC. I have had to put up with eircom's shenanigans for way too long now. I wouldn't have a problem if line rental was abolished, then it would be in line with UPC.

    Actually, Eircom provide a service without line rental. It is part of LLU and is called ULMP, you can even port your current telephone number if you want, that's called GLUMP.

    This product removes the need to pay WLR (line rental). I know some ISP will be selling this product to their residential customer soon. So again, its not eircom fault you are charged line rental, it is up to the ISP.


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    #105
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    The main advantage of LLU is that it reduces the cost to the operator as they don't have to rent capacity on eircom's local DSL/voice system. They only need access to the copper line itself.

    Some companies use it for ADSL only, and use eircom's exchange for voice others like Smart actually provide their own telephone voice services too.

    From a technical point of view, eircom's NGN 24mbit/s service is exactly the same technology as BT, Magnet or Smart's NGN 24mbit/s service.

    When Smart and Magnet launched, they were ahead of eircom as they'd ADSL2+ when eircom hadn't rolled it out yet. That's no longer the case.

    They can potentially innovate a bit too by offering customised line profiles / symmetrical DSL etc etc that might be different from eircom's offerings, but so far I haven't seen much evidence of that being done.


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    #106
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Solair wrote: »
    It's like this :

    LLU:
    <Your Modem>
    [eircom copper wire]
    <BT DSLAM>
    [Sky's backhaul]----<public internet>

    Bitstream:

    <Your Modem>
    [eircom copper wire]
    <eircom DSLAM>
    <handover point to BT>----[Sky's backhaul]----<public internet>

    The handover points are usually as close as is economically practical to your exchange. So, if you're on a small exchange in some area, it's likely that the traffic will pass back to BT at the nearest big exchange where BT has a node.

    Just are most correct the only thing I will like to point out is that the handover point (BECS or Bitstream Ethernet Connection service) although there is one on each regional pop the Access Seeker normally chooses the closer to their network. For example, if your core network is in citywest then you will chose citywest.

    This is done because not all ISPs will have access fibre for example in limerick, or maybe a local isp in Galway cant afford to put fibre from Dublin.


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    #107
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Nonoperational wrote: »
    You obviously don't like Eircom... but this really isn't Eircom's fault!

    No I don't, my big problem is line rental, why is this built in to sky's package if its not window dressing for eircom?


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    #108
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Bohrio wrote: »
    Actually, Eircom provide a service without line rental. It is part of LLU and is called ULMP, you can even port your current telephone number if you want, that's called GLUMP.

    This product removes the need to pay WLR (line rental). I know some ISP will be selling this product to their residential customer soon. So again, its not eircom fault you are charged line rental, it is up to the ISP.

    Which is eircom ultimately, these are legacy issues that need sorting pronto to bring Ireland in line with the rest of Europe.


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    #109
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    Which is eircom ultimately, these are legacy issues that need sorting pronto to bring Ireland in line with the rest of Europe.

    How is eircoms issue?

    The service is there, if you want it you can buy it.

    What legacy issues? not sure I understand that part?


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    #110
    keno-daytrader
    Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    This is not an Eircom issue. And I hate Eircom!!

    Tonight from Sky Im getting 0.86mbps when Im supposed to be getting 14mbps and always did with Eircom.

    This will probably be the straw that broke the camels back, will have to put my tail between the legs and go back to Eircom.

    Filed a complaint with Sky 4 days ago and havent heard a thing.

    Back to Eircom to pay ripoff prices but at least I know what Im getting, which is a stable connection, that they promise and deliver!

    ☀️ 6.72kWp ⚡2.52kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



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    #111
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Bohrio wrote: »
    How is eircoms issue?

    The service is there, if you want it you can buy it.

    What legacy issues? not sure I understand that part?

    Legacy as in line rental, why is line rental built into sky's package? Because its being paid to eircom. Sky don't have their own network over here, is it any wonder "eircom" is better? The sooner they find a way to give you broadband through the dish the better, until then we will be in the chastity belt that is eircom.


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    #112
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    Legacy as in line rental, why is line rental built into sky's package? Because its being paid to eircom. Sky don't have their own network over here, is it any wonder "eircom" is better? The sooner they find a way to give you broadband through the dish the better, until then we will be in the chastity belt that is eircom.

    I fail to see why that's eircom's fault. If Sky dont have their own equipment then is up to Sky to do it, or for Sky to ask BT for example. If Sky cannot deliver then try another ISP, maybe Eircom retail, Magnet, etc...

    Broadband through the dish like you call it is available... good luck with that btw


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    #113
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    If Sky were only slow in the midwest it would point to lack of capacity Roches St Limerick - Dublin on a single national circuit. Sky are slow everywhere it seems which points to a lack of Aggregation capacity nationwide to their handover point in Dublin.


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    #114
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Bohrio wrote: »
    I fail to see why that's eircom's fault.

    They own the lines and charge you accordingly, it's their network.


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    #115
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The lines work fine, but keep hating the lines by all means. :)


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    #116
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    They own the lines and charge you accordingly, it's their network.

    I think I am not making myself clear. So I am just not going to reply anymore.


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    #117
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Bohrio wrote: »
    I think I am not making myself clear. So I am just not going to reply anymore.

    Ok......,.


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    #118
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Chop Chop wrote: »
    Legacy as in line rental, why is line rental built into sky's package? Because its being paid to eircom. Sky don't have their own network over here, is it any wonder "eircom" is better? The sooner they find a way to give you broadband through the dish the better, until then we will be in the chastity belt that is eircom.

    Sky don't have their own access network in the UK either, they've some LLU gear in a lot of exchanges over there, but they use BT/OpenReach to actually connect to customers.

    Their setup in Ireland's pretty similar, only they're using BT Ireland to do their ground work and BT's LLU gear (where available)

    There are plenty of other ISPs in Ireland using eircom's access network that are absolutely excellent.

    Sky need to work out their teething problems and get on with it!
    I'd suspect their sales campaign may have been more of a success than they planned.

    The lines and access network (eircom's bit) is not the problem in this case. It seems to be a problem with whatever backhaul Sky are using. There's a pinch point somewhere and they should sort it out.

    Vodafone @ Home uses BT Ireland's LLU infrastructure too and eircom's access network, and that seems to be working just fine. So it's something specific to Sky's setup, not Eircom or BT.


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    #119
    keno-daytrader
    Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    Solair wrote: »
    Sky don't have their own access network in the UK either, they've some LLU gear in a lot of exchanges over there, but they use BT/OpenReach to actually connect to customers.

    Their setup in Ireland's pretty similar, only they're using BT Ireland to do their ground work and BT's LLU gear (where available)

    There are plenty of other ISPs in Ireland using eircom's access network that are absolutely excellent.

    Sky need to work out their teething problems and get on with it!
    I'd suspect their sales campaign may have been more of a success than they planned.

    The lines and access network (eircom's bit) is not the problem in this case. It seems to be a problem with whatever backhaul Sky are using. There's a pinch point somewhere and they should sort it out.

    Perhaps, but the SILENCE from Sky is deafening! And why I will leave soon.

    ☀️ 6.72kWp ⚡2.52kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



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    #120
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    keno-daytrader wrote: »
    Perhaps, but the SILENCE from Sky is deafening! And why I will leave soon.

    Are people posting on their forums btw ?

    Might be worth annoying them there :

    http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Broadband-Speed/bd-p/sky_broadband_speed


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    #121
    Chop Chop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Chop Chop


    Solair wrote: »
    Sky don't have their own access network in the UK either, they've some LLU gear in a lot of exchanges over there, but they use BT/OpenReach to actually connect to customers.

    Their setup in Ireland's pretty similar, only they're using BT Ireland to do their ground work and BT's LLU gear (where available)

    There are plenty of other ISPs in Ireland using eircom's access network that are absolutely excellent.

    Sky need to work out their teething problems and get on with it!
    I'd suspect their sales campaign may have been more of a success than they planned.

    The lines and access network (eircom's bit) is not the problem in this case. It seems to be a problem with whatever backhaul Sky are using. There's a pinch point somewhere and they should sort it out.

    Vodafone @ Home uses BT Ireland's LLU infrastructure too and eircom's access network, and that seems to be working just fine. So it's something specific to Sky's setup, not Eircom or BT.

    I do see what you're saying, but for me the line rental is eircom, so to me the service is from eircom.

    Look at UPC, they broke away and started their own network that's a decent price for fast broadband. I don't think we will ever see the likes of it outside Dublin.


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