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Would you consider voting a Majority Fianna fail for the next government?
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sad to say, i have to agree, and all because FG used too much stick and not enough carrot. i didnt vote for them, but i had high hopes of a change from FF cronyism and perhaps putting the people before their own gain.
i was sorely disappointed...
We all had high hopes but once you let the beasts off the lead, end game.
I thought labour would have done their job but they were, and still are soul destroying, the lies they forwarded to us all is insane and this is why they are gone for good. they are gone in the coming election there is no doubt of that, but all i can see is independent, but of course when they get in tight in government they will screw us as well.
I at least want one year without being screwed ffs. Labour should be destroyed by now but idiots are in their favour of which is unbelievable.0 -
MilanPan!c wrote: »So it's the voters fault?
not completely, i'd say 50% voter/50% gombeens. why, do you think it would work to vote in somebody else?0 -
not completely, i'd say 50% voter/50% gombeens. why, do you think it would work to vote in somebody else?
I'm not sure how're you're delineating voter from gombeen?
And tell me, if the problem is "the people" how is giving them MORE power going to help?
Wouldn't electing better representatives be a smarter idea than simply giving more power to the people you blame for all of Ireland's problems?0 -
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Zenno - this is my analysis:We all had high hopes but once you let the beasts off the lead, end game.
I thought labour would have done their job but they were, and still are soul destroying, the lies they forwarded to us all is insane and this is why they are gone for good. they are gone in the coming election there is no doubt of that, but all i can see is independent, but of course when they get in tight in government they will screw us as well.
I at least want one year without being screwed ffs. Labour should be destroyed by now but idiots are in their favour of which is unbelievable.
We needed to cut about €10 billion from the budget to get down to 3% PSBR per annum (I'd rather not borrow at all, but there you go).
We had no choice in this matter - the capital markets are shut to us and the only money we get to fill the gap currently is from the Troika.
Fine Gael wanted to get cut the €10 billion mostly with cost cutting in the public sector. Labour wanted to do it mostly with tax rises.
Fine Gael got a bit more support than Labour in the GE. They formed a coalition and adopted a compromise position: most of the gap will be closed by cuts to services, some of it by tax rises.
Do you agree with this analysis?
Is what either party is doing wrong?
Do you have a (realistic) alternative?
Thanks.0 -
I would consider a majority Fianna Fail for the next Government
I would consider needles in my eyes
I would consider self castration
I would consider being a kamakaee pilot
Great stuff this last batch of weed0 -
voters= peopleMilanPan!c wrote: »I'm not sure how're you're delineating voter from gombeen?
gombeens = lying politicos
i never said they should be given more power but since you ask, at least if the people voted (DD) they would be deciding their own fate for better or worse, not allowing some lying b@stard champagne sipping politician to do so.And tell me, if the problem is "the people" how is giving them MORE power going to help?Wouldn't electing better representatives be a smarter idea than simply giving more power to the people you blame for all of Ireland's problems?
where have you been? you cant beat the party machinations that have been rolling since the foundation of the state. they know every feckin trick to keep their nose at the trough.
i hope im wrong but i dont think we will ever have better than schoolteachers/publicans/auctioneers gombeens running this country.
And i dont blame the people, i blame the liars they put in power.0 -
Anynama141 wrote: »Zenno - this is my analysis:
We needed to cut about €10 billion from the budget to get down to 3% PSBR per annum (I'd rather not borrow at all, but there you go).
We had no choice in this matter - the capital markets are shut to us and the only money we get to fill the gap currently is from the Troika.
Fine Gael wanted to get cut the €10 billion mostly with cost cutting in the public sector. Labour wanted to do it mostly with tax rises.
Fine Gael got a bit more support than Labour in the GE. They formed a coalition and adopted a compromise position: most of the gap will be closed by cuts to services, some of it by tax rises.
Do you agree with this analysis?
Is what either party is doing wrong?
Do you have a (realistic) alternative?
Thanks.
Except for facts like this:
http://www.thejournal.ie/video-eamon-gilmore-child-benefit-703586-Dec2012/
And two days after that (ie: Labour knowing and accepting that a coalition was ahead), you had this:
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2011/02/21/quinn-signs-fees-pledge/
Labour lied through their teeth about what they would/wouldn't do in coalition. There was also Varadkar's "not another red cent to the banks".
They lied through their teeth cynically knowing full well and accepting in public that a coalition was ahead of them yet they still lied. This "our hands are tied" excuse is rubbish. Find the MOU between the FF Government and the Troika. They eff'ed the country up but one thing they did get right is that there is a passage saying anything in the MOU is interchangeable with an equal value measure. This Government haven't even looked for alternatives. They sicken me after what they promised.
Voted Labour last time..........not for a long, long, long time again will I consider them again.0 -
Isn't that a rather simplistic analysis though?Except for facts like this:
http://www.thejournal.ie/video-eamon-gilmore-child-benefit-703586-Dec2012/
And two days after that (ie: Labour knowing and accepting that a coalition was ahead), you had this:
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2011/02/21/quinn-signs-fees-pledge/
Labour lied through their teeth about what they would/wouldn't do in coalition. There was also Varadkar's "not another red cent to the banks".
They lied through their teeth cynically knowing full well and accepting in public that a coalition was ahead of them yet they still lied. This "our hands are tied" excuse is rubbish. Find the MOU between the FF Government and the Troika. They eff'ed the country up but one thing they did get right is that there is a passage saying anything in the MOU is interchangeable with an equal value measure. This Government haven't even looked for alternatives. They sicken me after what they promised.
Voted Labour last time..........not for a long, long, long time again will I consider them again.
Labour weren't campaigning for 'Labour in coalition' - they were setting out the things they would do in government. The more votes they got, the more of them they could do, up to the point where they get an overall majority and could (TRY) to implement it all.
The same for FG. You can't expect a party to campaign along the lines of 'when we are in coalition with another party...' - they don't know a priori whether the other party will even go in with them. All they can do is say 'here's what we'd like to do - if you agree with it, give us a vote'. The more votes they get, the more of it they should be able to achieve (or should be accountable for achieving).
Much of the stuff that Labour aren't doing I would lay at the door of FG. Much of the stuff that FG aren't doing, I would lay at the door of Labour. And amongst all of that lot, there's probably a few things each party has actually flip-flopped on in a way that reflects badly on them.
Would you accept that point?0 -
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voters= people
gombeens = lying politicos
i never said they should be given more power but since you ask, at least if the people voted (DD) they would be deciding their own fate for better or worse, not allowing some lying b@stard champagne sipping politician to do so.
where have you been? you cant beat the party machinations that have been rolling since the foundation of the state. they know every feckin trick to keep their nose at the trough.
i hope im wrong but i dont think we will ever have better than schoolteachers/publicans/auctioneers gombeens running this country.
And i dont blame the people, i blame the liars they put in power.
Here's the problem with all of this:
When DD gives people power to to choose policies, then you'll simply blame the policies they put in place.
All of these things are tools, nothing more. People can be just as manipulated to vote for destructive referenda as lying politicians.
On top of that, there has to be some sort of respect given to "experts," yes?
You'd go to a surgeon for heart surgery, because they have the skills, the knowledge and the experience.
Yet you seem to completely discount those same attributes in politicians.
Bas politicians, like bad doctors, don't disprove the efficacy of representative democracy, or in the case of doctors, western medicine.
DD is just a red herring, IMO, as it changes the mechanism, but not the outcomes, inherently.
DDI on the other hand, has chosen a fraud and a con man and a liar and a nutter as their spokesman - that should tell you all you need to know about their integrity as a party, and the sort of "honest" change they'd bring.0 -
MilanPan!c wrote: »Here's the problem with all of this:
When DD gives people power to to choose policies, then you'll simply blame the policies they put in place.
All of these things are tools, nothing more. People can be just as manipulated to vote for destructive referenda as lying politicians.
On top of that, there has to be some sort of respect given to "experts," yes?
You'd go to a surgeon for heart surgery, because they have the skills, the knowledge and the experience.
Yet you seem to completely discount those same attributes in politicians.
Bas politicians, like bad doctors, don't disprove the efficacy of representative democracy, or in the case of doctors, western medicine.
DD is just a red herring, IMO, as it changes the mechanism, but not the outcomes, inherently.
DDI on the other hand, has chosen a fraud and a con man and a liar and a nutter as their spokesman - that should tell you all you need to know about their integrity as a party, and the sort of "honest" change they'd bring.
ok, so what would you think of a party whos leader wouldnt be averse to telling a "n*gg**" joke(his word). or a minister who would make crude sexist statements to an old woman, or canvass to keep travellers out of his constituency? or a minister that would denigrate emigrants by saying they are leaving the country as a "Lifestyle choice" not because of unemployment. or a minister who has been named in Stubbs Gazette?
Is that the kind of integrity you are talking about? should that be all we need to know about Fine Gael?
As for the experts, you must be kidding me. if any of these people knew what they were doing we wouldnt be in the sh1t we are now.
If my heart surgeon was like that i'd be better off with the feckin' bread knife.....0 -
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Anynama141 wrote: »I don't think there's any suggestion whatsoever that Inda is racist. He may be a massive charisma vacuum, but let's not beat him with the wrong sticks.
racist or not, you are saying its appropriate for the leader of our nation to tell jokes like that? this is integrity?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/integrity0 -
It was foolish. He repeated something inappropriate that someone else said, but he should have known how it would sound.racist or not, you are saying its appropriate for the leader of our nation to tell jokes like that? this is integrity?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/integrity
Is he a man of integrity? I don't know for sure. There's never been any suggestion that he's got up to anything (unlike Ahern or Haughey etc.) - on the other hand, I think that Phil Hogan is a bit dodgy if not outright corrupt, and he seems to be close to Kenny. Also Lowry should also be being chased over the latest revelations about his antics (the taped phone call).
But it seems a bit rich to be attacking Kenny over something like this and giving a free pass to a loon, a defaulter, a freeloader, a liar and a friend to conmen and criminals like Ben Gilroy? It looks like a double standard.0 -
ok, so what would you think of a party whos leader wouldnt be averse to telling a "n*gg**" joke(his word). or a minister who would make crude sexist statements to an old woman, or canvass to keep travellers out of his constituency? or a minister that would denigrate emigrants by saying they are leaving the country as a "Lifestyle choice" not because of unemployment. or a minister who has been named in Stubbs Gazette?
Is that the kind of integrity you are talking about? should that be all we need to know about Fine Gael?
As for the experts, you must be kidding me. if any of these people knew what they were doing we wouldnt be in the sh1t we are now.
If my heart surgeon was like that i'd be better off with the feckin' bread knife.....
Right, but this is the thing, you're still only highlighting crappy politicians, put in place by lousy voters?
DD doesn't SOLVE that problem at all.
And as a far as dismissing experts, again, this is because of our crappy pols... do you ACTUALLY think that a bad experience with a doctor would lead you to dismissing all of medicine?
And hey, DD wouldn't get rid of politicians. They are RUNNING candidates. They now how hard it will be to get 2.5% of the population to sign a petition, so in fact, all you're doing is replacing one career politician, with another. the difference is you're CHOOSING to elect a lying fraudster.
Honestly, you might wanna look in the mirror on this one. If you vote for this fraud and his party, then... well... you'll probably reap what you sew.0 -
Anynama141 wrote: »Isn't that a rather simplistic analysis though?
Labour weren't campaigning for 'Labour in coalition' - they were setting out the things they would do in government. The more votes they got, the more of them they could do, up to the point where they get an overall majority and could (TRY) to implement it all.
The same for FG. You can't expect a party to campaign along the lines of 'when we are in coalition with another party...' - they don't know a priori whether the other party will even go in with them. All they can do is say 'here's what we'd like to do - if you agree with it, give us a vote'. The more votes they get, the more of it they should be able to achieve (or should be accountable for achieving).
Much of the stuff that Labour aren't doing I would lay at the door of FG. Much of the stuff that FG aren't doing, I would lay at the door of Labour. And amongst all of that lot, there's probably a few things each party has actually flip-flopped on in a way that reflects badly on them.
Would you accept that point?
No, read the first link will you. Gilmore is explicitly talking about what would or wouldn't happen if he were going into coalition with FG. They even were as far as to produce this leaflet as a bargaining chip with the people to vote them into coalition and avoid an FG majority basically promising people that a coalition with them in it wouldn't allow any of then to happen:
http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fgeverylittlehelps.jpg0 -
Yes, and if you read my reply:No, read the first link will you. Gilmore is explicitly talking about what would or wouldn't happen if he were going into coalition with FG. They even were as far as to produce this leaflet as a bargaining chip with the people to vote them into coalition and avoid an FG majority basically promising people that a coalition with them in it wouldn't allow any of then to happen:
http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fgeverylittlehelps.jpgMuch of the stuff that Labour aren't doing I would lay at the door of FG. Much of the stuff that FG aren't doing, I would lay at the door of Labour. And amongst all of that lot, there's probably a few things each party has actually flip-flopped on in a way that reflects badly on them.0 -
MilanPan!c wrote: »Here's the problem with all of this:
When DD gives people power to to choose policies, then you'll simply blame the policies they put in place.
All of these things are tools, nothing more. People can be just as manipulated to vote for destructive referenda as lying politicians.
On top of that, there has to be some sort of respect given to "experts," yes?
You'd go to a surgeon for heart surgery, because they have the skills, the knowledge and the experience.
Yet you seem to completely discount those same attributes in politicians.
Bas politicians, like bad doctors, don't disprove the efficacy of representative democracy, or in the case of doctors, western medicine.
DD is just a red herring, IMO, as it changes the mechanism, but not the outcomes, inherently.
DDI on the other hand, has chosen a fraud and a con man and a liar and a nutter as their spokesman - that should tell you all you need to know about their integrity as a party, and the sort of "honest" change they'd bring.
Im calling you out on this one. Its my humble opinion (prove me wrong) your a closet mainstream party supporter and just wont say it. Why? You have such vehement views on Direct Democracy, post after post on how their so evil and a it would be cataclysmic disaster for the country. People cant be trusted with a vote, Ben Gilroy is a lying con-artist cheat lizard man etc. and then .... nothing. you scuttle back to "im undecided". Well you know what, piss or get off the pot. Share some of your political inclinations or are you just going to follow the feeling in your tummy on election day? You made your opinions super clear on DDI, that we've seen but youve noting positive to contribute after that. Have you any positive or negative to say about the other partys. Whats your solution? Anything!!!0 -
How exactly is he supposed to prove that? Can you prove you are not a covert CIA operative?yermanoffthetv wrote: »Im calling you out on this one. Its my humble opinion (prove me wrong) your a closet mainstream party supporter and just wont say it.0 -
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Anynama141 wrote: »It was foolish. He repeated something inappropriate that someone else said, but he should have known how it would sound.
Is he a man of integrity? I don't know for sure. There's never been any suggestion that he's got up to anything (unlike Ahern or Haughey etc.) - on the other hand, I think that Phil Hogan is a bit dodgy if not outright corrupt, and he seems to be close to Kenny. Also Lowry should also be being chased over the latest revelations about his antics (the taped phone call).
But it seems a bit rich to be attacking Kenny over something like this and giving a free pass to a loon, a defaulter, a freeloader, a liar and a friend to conmen and criminals like Ben Gilroy? It looks like a double standard.
read back my posts, im not giving a free ride to anyone, and im not attacking kenny. You guys are attacking DDI and gilroy and im pointing out that you cant just tar them with one brush and FG with another. level pitch please.
i dislike all politicians equally.0 -
I think it's fair to say that I hold them all to the same standards: hence I have issues with Lab and FG. But they are light years ahead of Fianna Failure. And I wouldn't vote for any organisation led by a slippery creature the likes of Ben Gilroy.read back my posts, im not giving a free ride to anyone, and im not attacking kenny. You guys are attacking DDI and gilroy and im pointing out that you cant just tar them with one brush and FG with another. level pitch please.
i dislike all politicians equally.0 -
yermanoffthetv wrote: »Im calling you out on this one. Its my humble opinion (prove me wrong) your a closet mainstream party supporter and just wont say it. Why? You have such vehement views on Direct Democracy, post after post on how their so evil and a it would be cataclysmic disaster for the country. People cant be trusted with a vote, Ben Gilroy is a lying con-artist cheat lizard man etc. and then .... nothing. you scuttle back to "im undecided". Well you know what, piss or get off the pot. Share some of your political inclinations or are you just going to follow the feeling in your tummy on election day? You made your opinions super clear on DDI, that we've seen but youve noting positive to contribute after that. Have you any positive or negative to say about the other partys. Whats your solution? Anything!!!
What are you calling me on? Being a supporter of representative democracy? Guilty as charged.
I don't think "direct democracy" is evil. It's just not some hugely amazing miracle.
As for the absurd (and repeated) assertion that I have to support some other party to dislike or criticise a conspiracy touting fraudster, who lies and takes advantage or people in distress, well, let's just agree to disagree.
And you know what, you also disagree.
You don't have to be a expert chef to spot a poorly cooked piece of meat, or an expert mechanic to know a garage has failed to fix your car.
Trying to put this back on me, instead of actually addressing the issues of the candidate your defending is just obvious deflection.0 -
MilanPan!c wrote: »What are you calling me on? Being a supporter of representative democracy? Guilty as charged.
I don't think "direct democracy" is evil. It's just not some hugely amazing miracle.
As for the absurd (and repeated) assertion that I have to support some other party to dislike or criticise a conspiracy touting fraudster, who lies and takes advantage or people in distress, well, let's just agree to disagree.
And you know what, you also disagree.
You don't have to be a expert chef to spot a poorly cooked piece of meat, or an expert mechanic to know a garage has failed to fix your car.
Trying to put this back on me, instead of actually addressing the issues of the candidate your defending is just obvious deflection.
So youve nothing. A neutral citizen from planet neutronia. Back to the long grass to continue your sniping :rolleyes:0 -
read back my posts, im not giving a free ride to anyone, and im not attacking kenny. You guys are attacking DDI and gilroy and im pointing out that you cant just tar them with one brush and FG with another. level pitch please.
i dislike all politicians equally.
They are not all made equal, and that's part of the problem you're having...
Find any other candidate that says things as crazy as Gilroy... I don't mean stupid or tin-eared, I mean crazy.
Find any other politician that lies about his connection to fringe anti-government groups as well, and I'll not vote for them either.
Gilroy is a bit unique, as is his party, as it's basically just a few nutters, and he's kind the king of the castle there... so the party and the candidate are currently co-equal in this arrangement.
It's a pretty unique circumstance.
Saying that, I'm an outsider to Irish politics, so I have no favourite party, etc.
I'm more liberal than conservative, but after that it's a policy by policy, politician by politician thing.0 -
yermanoffthetv wrote: »So youve nothing. A neutral citizen from planet neutronia. Back to the long grass to continue your sniping :rolleyes:
Another deflection eh?
Here, if you wanna call me on the phone, PM me your phone number and we can have a chat. I'm 100% positive that you'd completely understand my position after a five minute phone call.
I am NOT anything, but what I say I am.
I hold no party affiliation, but dislike con men, conspiracy theorists and serial liars.0 -
Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil...
Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil...
Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil, Fianna Fáil...
Fianna Fáil
Fianna Fáil0 -
MilanPan!c wrote: »Right, but this is the thing, you're still only highlighting crappy politicians, put in place by lousy voters?
DD doesn't SOLVE that problem at all.
but at least the people would have some input into the decisions that affect their lives rather than someone who has no idea about their day to day concerns.
you are not comparing like with like. A doctor studies for years to become qualified at his profession. to become a politician you have to buy a pub, or join the MIAVI and become an auctioneer.And as a far as dismissing experts, again, this is because of our crappy pols... do you ACTUALLY think that a bad experience with a doctor would lead you to dismissing all of medicine?
would you ask your local national schoolteacher to run your business?
not sure if you understand DD, or maybe i dont, where does it say DD gets rid of politicians? it gets rid of their bad decisions and replaces them with the voters decisions, (granted perhaps also bad decisions , but theirs)And hey, DD wouldn't get rid of politicians. They are RUNNING candidates. They now how hard it will be to get 2.5% of the population to sign a petition, so in fact, all you're doing is replacing one career politician, with another. the difference is you're CHOOSING to elect a lying fraudster.
(and you are choosing to elect a lying fraudster either way)0 -
but at least the people would have some input into the decisions that affect their lives rather than someone who has no idea about their day to day concerns.
you are not comparing like with like. A doctor studies for years to become qualified at his profession. to become a politician you have to buy a pub, or join the MIAVI and become an auctioneer.
would you ask your local national schoolteacher to run your business?
not sure if you understand DD, or maybe i dont, where does it say DD gets rid of politicians? it gets rid of their bad decisions and replaces them with the voters decisions, (granted perhaps also bad decisions , but theirs)
(and you are choosing to elect a lying fraudster either way)
People ALREADY have input.
I am comparing like for like, to a degree... a politician is briefed by experts, is involved with industry leaders, hears his constituents voices and makes a considered decision, if they're good. And yes, people like that do exist.
I know you think every single politician is a crook, but quite obviously that's not true.
If you don't want to replace politicians with DD, why are you voting for politicians in the first place?
Start an org to reform the Irish democratic system, not tied to policies like DDI, or dodgy politicians, like DDI.
Do you ACTUALLY think Gilroy would be a trustworthy politician?
Because 99% of what you'd get by electing him is a politician unrelated to DD.
--
One last thing, let's say you have a magic wand and put DD into place in Ireland. What happens when it produces a lot of results you don't like? Who are you gonna vote out then?0 -
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MilanPan!c wrote: »Another deflection eh?
Here, if you wanna call me on the phone, PM me your phone number and we can have a chat. I'm 100% positive that you'd completely understand my position after a five minute phone call.
I am NOT anything, but what I say I am.
I hold no party affiliation, but dislike con men, conspiracy theorists and serial liars.
Your the one deflecting mr no opinion. If you dont like con men, conspiracy theorists and serial liars then obviously you dont vote for any party! oh wait thats right you dont because then youd be a hypocrite if you did. You dont say what you are, thats the problem so how can we have a constructive discussion. You little snipes indirectly calling DDI supporters nutters and deluded doesnt help the case. You have nothing but your own negativity.
Edit: Im in Australia, you want to call me tomorrow at a reasonable hour ill pm you my number im going to bed now.0
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