Would you consider voting a Majority Fianna fail for the next government?

Cody Pomeray

Anynama141 wrote: »

Indeed, but the USC is also a progressive tax. Even the property tax should align quite closely with household wealth, unless poorer people tend to live in more expensive houses.

The USC is progressive, nobody denies that - that's not the point.

I was responding to your point about people not paying income tax. A person earning €200 a week pays the Universal Social Charge, which is indistinguishable from income tax in all but a name. It is a tax on work, deducted by an employer, which goes into the same account as income tax. Saying these people do not pay income tax is technically true, but more importantly it is substantively nonsense because they pay tax on income earned from work.

Anynama141

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I was responding to your point about people not paying income tax. A person earning €200 a week pays the Universal Social Charge, which is indistinguishable from income tax in all but a name. It is a tax on work, deducted by an employer, which goes into the same account as income tax. Saying these people do not pay income tax is technically true, but more importantly it is substantively nonsense because they pay tax on income earned from work.

Fair enough - I thought you were arguing that the budgets introduced by FG and Lab were quite regressive: USC was introduced by Fianna Failure.

I find this rather odd:

You pay the Universal Social Charge if your gross income is more than €10,036 per year. Once your income is over this limit, you pay the USC on all of your income. For married couples or civil partners, each spouse or civil partner is treated individually by their employer or pension provider throughout the year.

It's only 2% at the lowest threshold level, but it raises the odd situation whereby if you get a €1 pay rise from €10,035 per year to €10,036, you actually lose €199 in income...

tayto lover

Anynama141 wrote: »

Indeed, but the USC is also a progressive tax. Even the property tax should align quite closely with household wealth, unless poorer people tend to live in more expensive houses.

"Household wealth" ??

Many people do not consider the fact that they are striving to pay a mortgage, Heating oil, ESB bills, Gas, Insurance etc as household wealth.
Household wealth is a myth used to try and make people think they have assets.
People have no intention of selling and just keeping the money. They need a home to raise a family and that's why most people who have houses bought one in the first place.
I do not consider my home as an asset to play around with. I consider it as a necessity.

solas111

Anynama141 wrote: »

Indeed, but the USC is also a progressive tax. Even the property tax should align quite closely with household wealth, unless poorer people tend to live in more expensive houses.

This is the crux of the problem. People like yourself, Phil Hogan and most of the Fine Gael/ Fianna Fail cartel in the Dail are so out of touch with the reality of everyday living that they actually believe that what you have just posted is true.

In very many cases and for various reasons property tax (home tax) does not align itself in any way with household wealth. Apart from the problem of negative equity, unemployment, wage cuts, a combination of home taxes etc. there are also very many people who saved and sweated and went out there and actually built their own homes, block by block. Many of those people would be on very low income or no income at all and it may have taken them a long time but they eventually had their own homes. They could instead have put their names on the housing list and demanded that they should be housed by the local authority but they had the skills for the job and were not afraid of hard work.

Then along comes a b****cks like Hogan and his Fianna Fail mirror image and they stick a tax on people’s homes. This is no surprise because these idiots have been on the gravy train for so long that they genuinely have no idea about how most other people live. The thought of voting for such clowns makes me physically sick and I cannot understand how anyone could defend them, unless of course you are another member of their exclusive little club of thieves and liars.

Cody Pomeray

Anynama141 wrote: »

Fair enough - I thought you were arguing that the budgets introduced by FG and Lab were quite regressive: USC was introduced by Fianna Failure.

But the USC is progressive... as you said, and as I agreed.

It is true that budgets were more progressive at the beginning - the last 2 were just not progressive for the lowest income deciles.

I'm not interested in the politics of it, the problems wouldn't have arisen if it weren't for Fianna Fáil to begin with so there is no political point scoring even if someone wants to do that.

I'm interested in the negative change in progressivity in the last 2 years under Fine Gael. That is new. It's worrying, and it's not something to celebrate.

Anynama141

tayto lover wrote: »

"Household wealth" ??

Many people do not consider the fact that they are striving to pay a mortgage, Heating oil, ESB bills, Gas, Insurance etc as household wealth.
Household wealth is a myth used to try and make people think they have assets.
People have no intention of selling and just keeping the money. They need a home to raise a family and that's why most people who have houses bought one in the first place.
I do not consider my home as an asset to play around with. I consider it as a necessity.

Would you agree that richer people usually live in more expensive houses?

Anynama141

solas111 wrote: »

This is the crux of the problem. People like yourself, Phil Hogan and most of the Fine Gael/ Fianna Fail cartel in the Dail are so out of touch with the reality of everyday living that they actually believe that what you have just posted is true.

So you think that poorer people tend to live in bigger houses? Interesting.

Why does property tax makes sense for the rest of the OECD but not for us?

Tom1991

The day they get back in is the day i finally bid farewell to this little island.

Before anyone asks I do not believe that any politician or political party is different from the other in Ireland as there members are groomed from teenagers to lie to peoples faces.
Its always the same, a Fine Gael government spends its term making the bad decisions and then after that's done Fianna Fail have there party where their cronies are invited at the expense of joe soap.Either Side joe soap gets thoroughly and vigorously ****ed so there is little difference and any Irish success story is done in spite of the the current government and not because of the current government.

tayto lover

Anynama141 wrote: »

Would you agree that richer people usually live in more expensive houses?

Yes BUT richer people usually own their homes bought and paid for with cash.
Most people of middle or low income would consider their mortgage as a millstone around their necks with all the cuts, even if they still have work. Not to mention negative equity.

Anynama141

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes BUT richer people usually own their homes bought and paid for with cash.
Most people of middle or low income would consider their mortgage as a millstone around their necks with all the cuts, even if they still have work. Not to mention negative equity.

And the richer folks have to pay more for their more expensive houses.

Why should we not have property tax when nearly everyone else in the OECD, including very left-wing countries like Sweden, see the sense in what is essentially a wealth tax?

tayto lover

Anynama141 wrote: »

And the richer folks have to pay more for their more expensive houses.

Why should we not have property tax when nearly everyone else in the OECD, including very left-wing countries like Sweden, see the sense in what is essentially a wealth tax?

Why do we have a USC when most of those countries don't?

Cody Pomeray

Most countries also didn't have stamp duty regime like ours.

Anynama141 wrote: »

So you think that poorer people tend to live in bigger houses? Interesting.

It's a little unreasonable to ignore regional property prices.

Up the road from me is a 2 story family home, on its own land, on the market for less than €100k. Beautiful views, West Kerry, huge garden. You'd have paid a lot of money for it 5 years ago.

Property taxes are only roughly progressive if you completely ignore regional and time of purchase distributions.

michael999999

tayto lover wrote: »

Why do we have a USC when most of those countries don't?

Because Fianna Fail bailed out there developer backers from the Galway tent!

tayto lover

michael999999 wrote: »

Because Fianna Fail bailed out there developer backers from the Galway tent!

If so why didn't FG/Labour do away with it then?

bgrizzley

solas111 wrote: »

This is the crux of the problem. People like yourself, Phil Hogan and most of the Fine Gael/ Fianna Fail cartel in the Dail are so out of touch with the reality of everyday living that they actually believe that what you have just posted is true.

In very many cases and for various reasons property tax (home tax) does not align itself in any way with household wealth. Apart from the problem of negative equity, unemployment, wage cuts, a combination of home taxes etc. there are also very many people who saved and sweated and went out there and actually built their own homes, block by block. Many of those people would be on very low income or no income at all and it may have taken them a long time but they eventually had their own homes. They could instead have put their names on the housing list and demanded that they should be housed by the local authority but they had the skills for the job and were not afraid of hard work.

Then along comes a b****cks like Hogan and his Fianna Fail mirror image and they stick a tax on people’s homes. This is no surprise because these idiots have been on the gravy train for so long that they genuinely have no idea about how most other people live. The thought of voting for such clowns makes me physically sick and I cannot understand how anyone could defend them, unless of course you are another member of their exclusive little club of thieves and liars.

excellent post, im sorry theres no rep button.

it nearly drew a tear from me when i think of all the evenings i left work to go to my now home and started a cement mixer for blocks or climbed a ladder to slate, or pains in my arms from plastering. i've worked my fingers to the bone over my house and fcuk any overpaid b@stard who says the blood and sweat thats mixed in with that mortar is some kind of wealth im sitting on or that im the cause of this recession.

michael999999

tayto lover wrote: »

If so why didn't FG/Labour do away with it then?

You do understand that fianna fail have spent any money this country will make for the next 50 years.

But who gives a s##t when the bernard mc namaras of this world are living in mansions in London, thanks to fianna fail bailing them out with Irelands money.

Fianna fu€€in fail.

tayto lover

michael999999 wrote: »

You do understand that fianna fail have spent any money this country will make for the next 50 years.

But who gives a s##t when the bernard mc namaras of this world are living in mansions in London, thanks to fianna fail bailing them out with Irelands money.

Fianna fu€€in fail.

You'll not get any argument from me on that. I hate the Bst****.
But continuing to heap even more austerity on the same people again and again is not the way out either.

Anynama141

bgrizzley wrote: »

excellent post, im sorry theres no rep button.

it nearly drew a tear from me when i think of all the evenings i left work to go to my now home and started a cement mixer for blocks or climbed a ladder to slate, or pains in my arms from plastering. i've worked my fingers to the bone over my house and fcuk any overpaid b@stard who says the blood and sweat thats mixed in with that mortar is some kind of wealth im sitting on or that im the cause of this recession.

I sweated over a delicious dinner last week, poured my heart and soul into it: does that mean it's not food?

Anynama141

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Most countries also didn't have stamp duty regime like ours.

Stamp duty is a tax on the seller of a property, not on the buyer. Think about it for a minute. It's the buyer who posts the check, but whose pocket is that tax really coming out of?

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

It's a little unreasonable to ignore regional property prices.

Up the road from me is a 2 story family home, on its own land, on the market for less than €100k. Beautiful views, West Kerry, huge garden. You'd have paid a lot of money for it 5 years ago.

Property taxes are only roughly progressive if you completely ignore regional and time of purchase distributions.

Are there a lot of highly-paid people in rural Kerry then? They kept that quiet.

Anynama141

tayto lover wrote: »

If so why didn't FG/Labour do away with it then?

Because the money was mostly paid out by that stage: what was paid was a sunk cost, and 'saving' what remained would have been an expensive gamble if the Troika didn't like it. Expensive gamble in the sense that they might have shown us proper austerity.

hooradiation

bgrizzley wrote: »

excellent post, im sorry theres no rep button.

it nearly drew a tear from me when i think of all the evenings i left work to go to my now home and started a cement mixer for blocks or climbed a ladder to slate, or pains in my arms from plastering. i've worked my fingers to the bone over my house and fcuk any overpaid b@stard who says the blood and sweat thats mixed in with that mortar is some kind of wealth im sitting on or that im the cause of this recession.

You probably shouldn't mix blood and sweat in with the mortar.
Water will do just fine and it has the added side effect of not causing you to pass out due to blood loss and an over active martyr gland.

tayto lover

Anynama141 wrote: »

Because the money was mostly paid out by that stage: what was paid was a sunk cost, and 'saving' what remained would have been an expensive gamble if the Troika didn't like it. Expensive gamble in the sense that they might have shown us proper austerity.

And what would you consider proper austerity?
Are you not happy that some people only have 50 euro per month after all their bills are paid?
Would you be happier if they had only 10 euro or nothing at all because it's coming if this shower have their way?

tayto lover

hooradiation wrote: »

You probably shouldn't mix blood and sweat in with the mortar.
Water will do just fine and it has the added side effect of not causing you to pass out due to blood loss and an over active martyr gland.

Spoken like a true blue shill.

hooradiation

tayto lover wrote: »

Spoken like a true blue shill.

I'm certain i'm meant to be offended by that, I just can't figure out why.

Maybe you could use your big boy words and try again?

Anynama141

tayto lover wrote: »

Spoken like a true blue shill.

This isn't an argument. You are clearly shilling for something too - but I try to actually address the points you make and ask questions back.

tayto lover

hooradiation wrote: »

I'm certain i'm meant to be offended by that, I just can't figure out why.

Maybe you could use your big boy words and try again?

I'd say you got it loud and clear.
That poster seemed genuine and there was no need for your comment.

tayto lover

Anynama141 wrote: »

This isn't an argument. You are clearly shilling for something too - but I try to actually address the points you make and ask questions back.

That was aimed at another poster who over-stepped the argument.
I follow no political party either. Have little time for self-servers.

Anynama141

tayto lover wrote: »

And what would you consider proper austerity?
Are you not happy that some people only have 50 euro per month after all their bills are paid?
Would you be happier if they had only 10 euro or nothing at all because it's coming if this shower have their way?

Tayto, I'm guessing you haven't travelled to any LDEC countries? Can you give me examples of places where you have seen what you consider poverty, just so we can establish a point of reference?

I've already explained why I don't really think that ICLU survey is much use.

bgrizzley

Anynama141 wrote: »

I sweated over a delicious dinner last week, poured my heart and soul into it: does that mean it's not food?

phil hogan is looking for a new press officer, you should apply, that kind of a soundbite is made for him...

Anynama141

bgrizzley wrote: »

phil hogan is looking for a new press officer, you should apply that kind of a soundbite is made for him...

The ULA would love yours

Seriously, Phil Hogan is a pillock. I've said it many times. That does not mean we don't need a property tax.