North Korea v USA Mega Merge.

Meglamonia

old hippy wrote: »

Nobody saw the release of Aung San Suu Kyi happening so fast and Burma making its tentative first steps towards democracy. Albeit it faulty and slow but it's now happening. Burma was an isolated closed country, with its own gulags and oppressed people. But it happended through international pressure, dialogue and publicising its plight.

As for NK, I've been paying close attention to it for over a decade. I've stood at the DMZ and looked straight at DPRK soldiers. I've heard all sides of the story and its not as simple as your "durrr, let's invade and wipe them out" schtick :rolleyes:

You've looked straight a the DPRK soldiers,good man you automatically know more than us.I won't be taking part in this argument anymore,thanks for misquoting me too.

I really can't believe you think North Korea will follow the path that Burma took or anything similar.You can have a few of these guys back at you seeing as your so fond of them :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

old hippy

Meglamonia wrote: »

You've looked straight a the DPRK soldiers,good man you automatically know more than us.I won't be taking part in this argument anymore,thanks for misquoting me too.

I really can't believe you think North Korea will follow the path that Burma took or anything similar.You can have a few of these guys back at you seeing as your so fond of them :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I haven't seen any evidence that you are aware of the situation in Pyongyang over the past 60 years, no. You asked me about research, NK and the entire region have been of interest to me for many years.

I have no idea what your last peculiar comment means and as you've run out of steam, I guess I never will. I guess it's something to do with playing an armchair general without a clue to the bigger picture and being caught out on it. Tchh.

Icyseanfitz

nothing yet no?

NakedNNettles

Meglamonia wrote: »

I won't be taking part in this argument anymore,thanks for misquoting me too.

Good decision! Every man needs to know when he's flogging a dead horse.

Back to the old computer game there son where you can exercise your happy trigger finger on a few pixels.

old hippy

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

nothing yet no?

I wouldn't say that. We've had a few people rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of impending war and one flounce, so not an uneventful afternoon.

666irishguy

old hippy wrote: »

There's a potential for millions to perish in a nuclear conflict that could envelop the region. Do you really want that?

History has shown that when dealing with despots, peace at any cost is always too high a price. The idea that millions would die in a nuclear war in Korea is also unrealistic. The South Koreans aren't going to OK the US obliterating the North with it's Cold War style nuclear weapons for the obvious reasons of fallout and the loss of life and rebuilding and cleaning up such a catastrophe. The North has no means to deliver it's nuclear weapons which are of such a low yield that they would be virtually useless on the battlefield and would not cripple the South even if they somehow managed to launch one on a missile.
The logic of preserving life at all costs regardless of the fact that the quality of life that will be endured by those lives will be little more than living in a giant open air prison and subject to the whims of a lunatic is deeply flawed. Kim Il Un is a young man, he could be in power for another 30 to 40 years. How many will die in that time period from famine and despotism? It's also important to remember that if something isn't done now, it will more than likely lead to the South and even the Japanese considering the acquisition of nuclear weapons. A nuclear powder keg in East Asia is all we need given the rise in tensions with the Chinese.

Icyseanfitz

old hippy wrote: »

I wouldn't say that. We've had a few people rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of impending war and one flounce, so not an uneventful afternoon.

ahhh so ol kimmy hasnt done what he said he was going to yet i take it :pac:

old hippy

666irishguy wrote: »

History has shown that when dealing with despots, peace at any cost is always too high a price. The idea that millions would die in a nuclear war in Korea is also unrealistic. The South Koreans aren't going to OK the US obliterating the North with it's Cold War style nuclear weapons for the obvious reasons of fallout and the loss of life and rebuilding and cleaning up such a catastrophe. The North has no means to deliver it's nuclear weapons which are of such a low yield that they would be virtually useless on the battlefield and would not cripple the South even if they somehow managed to launch one on a missile.
The logic of preserving life at all costs regardless of the fact that the quality of life that will be endured by those lives will be little more than living in a giant open air prison and subject to the whims of a lunatic is deeply flawed. Kim Il Un is a young man, he could be in power for another 30 to 40 years. How many will die in that time period from famine and despotism? It's also important to remember that if something isn't done now, it will more than likely lead to the South and even the Japanese considering the acquisition of nuclear weapons. A nuclear powder keg in East Asia is all we need given the rise in tensions with the Chinese.

I can tell you this, Japan will not acquire nuclear weapons. There is no wish for that in Japan. Neither amongst the people or the politicians. They don't even have a proper army, rather they rely on their scaled down defence forces and the protection that the US offers - despite protestations about the Okinawa base.

What is the something that needs to be done, in your view? I believe in dialogue and negotiation and subtle pressure from China. Wishy washy to some, I'm sure but a lot more healthy.

Jimoslimos

Sounds like we have a few spotty teenagers whose idea of war is something akin to a few hours playing CoD on the xbox.

War isn't necessarily the answer and in any case intervention from an outside power (the US in this case) rarely works. People generally require some form of self-determination for national identity.

We Irish have the Easter Rising. French and Americans have their revolutions. The British have all manner of wars/conflicts against the French, Spanish and more recently the Germans. Hardly any sense of national pride to be felt when some other country comes in and saves the day.

Oh wait, I forgot about the success stories of Iraq and Afghanistan. Now there's a template to follow:rolleyes:

L.Jenkins

Must say, Obama could surprise us all and unleash a proverbial can of whoop áss not even Bush was capable of.

BlatentCheek

old hippy wrote: »

Nobody saw the release of Aung San Suu Kyi happening so fast and Burma making its tentative first steps towards democracy. Albeit it faulty and slow but it's now happening. Burma was an isolated closed country, with its own gulags and oppressed people. But it happended through international pressure, dialogue and publicising its plight.

I think comparisons to Burma are optimistic. The junta there never sought nuclear weapons, never acted in such an aggressive way towards its neighbours and the regime was never based on an insanely OTT cult of personality around a stalinist dynasty.
For all its evils the Myanmar junta only put Aun Sang Suu Kyi under house arrest; a transition to democracy there is now possible because opposition people and organisations exist to potentially create a pluralist polity.
NK on the other hand would just have squabbles between its top generals and secret police chiefs over who gets to succeed Kim if there was any question of an end to the current regime.
When change comes to NK it's almost certainly going to be violent.

BlatentCheek

old hippy wrote: »

I can tell you this, Japan will not acquire nuclear weapons. There is no wish for that in Japan. Neither amongst the people or the politicians. They don't even have a proper army, rather they rely on their scaled down defence forces and the protection that the US offers - despite protestations about the Okinawa base.

I'd bet on Japan changing the pacifist elements of its constitution and substantially rearming within the next twenty years, if not ten.
Every power in Asia is tooling up in a big way and Japan won't consider the US sufficient reassurance forever, particularly if US defence cuts continue.
I doubt they'll bother with nukes but their post-war pacifism won't last

old hippy

BlatentCheek wrote: »

I'd bet on Japan changing the pacifist elements of its constitution and substantially rearming within the next twenty years, if not ten.
Every power in Asia is tooling up in a big way and Japan won't consider the US sufficient reassurance forever, particularly if US defence cuts continue.
I doubt they'll bother with nukes but they're post-war pacifism won't last

It's true, there are right wing elements who seek Japan's re-emergence as a more military power in the region but they are few and far between. The people won't have it.

666irishguy

old hippy wrote: »

I can tell you this, Japan will not acquire nuclear weapons. There is no wish for that in Japan. Neither amongst the people or the politicians. They don't even have a proper army, rather they rely on their scaled down defence forces and the protection that the US offers - despite protestations about the Okinawa base.

What is the something that needs to be done, in your view? I believe in dialogue and negotiation and subtle pressure from China. Wishy washy to some, I'm sure but a lot more healthy.

The very strict Self Defense aspect of the Japanese military has slowly been picked apart in the last decade. They have removed the restrictions on foreign military operations, have acquired air to air refueling tankers for fighter jets that could let them operate well outside the home islands and are building enormous helicopter carriers that should be in violation of the defensive weapons only act of their constitution, yet still they are nearing completion as we speak. To say they are not a proper military is untrue IMO. They have a fairly small army compared to their neighbours, but have a large airforce with the latest aircraft and one of the most powerful Navies in the world, minus submarines and aircraft carriers, but with the Chinese building carriers, I have no doubt they are something they will sooner or later bend the rules to acquire also and in time they will scrap the Self Defense Force mentality. There are the first voices in both South Korea and Japan advocating a deterrent of their own and who's to say that if we see few more tantrums like this one, people in both nations won't begin to ask if they really do need their own nuclear weapons.

What's to be done with Kim? I personally think stopping the aid and essentially cutting him adrift might bring the whole show down on his head eventually. The other option is to basically go to war and try and end the madness as quickly as possible, that would have to be done sooner or later before they do build a viable nuclear missile. Not even the Chinese would be able to reign him in once that would happen.
Either way the price in human life will have to be paid in the near future or down the road in what could be a bigger mess or in the slow suffering of the average North Korean.

old hippy

Stopping all aid, is an answer. It will still result in great hardships, to say the least but if negotiations fail then maybe it is the only alternative.

Certainly war is not the way.

Thrill

N. Korea issues ‘ultimatum’ to the South, warns of ‘immediate retaliation’ reports

FLASH: North Korea to start military actions immediately: KCNA

NK CRISIS: BREAKING NEWS - NORTH KOREA ISSUES 'ULTIMATUM' TO SOUTH KOREA, WARNS OF 'IMMEDIATE RETALIATION'. RT_COM

Breaking: DPRK warns of pending military strike

Is this it??

Or more Kim BS?

ballsymchugh

old hippy wrote: »

Stopping all aid, is an answer. It will still result in great hardships, to say the least but if negotiations fail then maybe it is the only alternative.

Certainly war is not the way.

i wouldn't be so sure. the party loyalists and the military will still get enough food while anyone who doesn't tow the party line will be sent off to the 're-education' camps to live out their days.

everyone walking around pyongyang is a potential secret policeman, seeing it as their duty to inform if they see something out of the ordinary. they'll still get whatever food the collective farms will produce.

the famine in the mid 90s didn't have much of an effect on the elite, and there was no noticeable opposition arising out of it either.

opinion guy

ballsymchugh wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure. the party loyalists and the military will still get enough food while anyone who doesn't tow the party line will be sent off to the 're-education' camps to live out their days.

everyone walking around pyongyang is a potential secret policeman, seeing it as their duty to inform if they see something out of the ordinary. they'll still get whatever food the collective farms will produce.

the famine in the mid 90s didn't have much of an effect on the elite, and there was no noticeable opposition arising out of it either.

Kim is certainly making his RDA's anyhow :v

Yurt

BREAKING: 'Dozens of people seriously injured' after 2 explosions near finish of Boston Marathon

It's begun !

Thrill

Looks like more BS from Kim.

In 'ultimatum,' N. Korea vows blitz attack on S. Korea

SEOUL/WASHINGTON, April 16 (Yonhap) -- North Korea's military on Tuesday issued an "ultimatum" saying it would launch retaliation against South Korea without warning if "anti-North Korean" activities continue in the South.

"The supreme command of the Korean People's Army Tuesday issued an ultimatum to the South Korean puppet group," Pyongyang's official news agency, KCNA, said in an English-version article.

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2013/04/16/0200000000AEN20130416000300315.HTML

He's become a yawnfest at this stage and best ignored.

old hippy

ballsymchugh wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure. the party loyalists and the military will still get enough food while anyone who doesn't tow the party line will be sent off to the 're-education' camps to live out their days.

everyone walking around pyongyang is a potential secret policeman, seeing it as their duty to inform if they see something out of the ordinary. they'll still get whatever food the collective farms will produce.

the famine in the mid 90s didn't have much of an effect on the elite, and there was no noticeable opposition arising out of it either.

That's it, exactly. Of course there is opposition but it is hushed and fearful. And hardly surprising, too, given what happens to perceived enemies of the state.

I don't have the answers, I'm not a politician nor a diplomat. I do despair at the situation, of course. It's just all this talk of war is un-nerving and the young bucks here, the wargasm addicts with their appetite for destruction and the "we" have to do this and "we" have to do that...

I fear for mankind, sometimes. And not just from the machinations of Pyongyang

opinion guy

old hippy wrote: »

That's it, exactly. Of course there is opposition but it is hushed and fearful. And hardly surprising, too, given what happens to perceived enemies of the state.

I don't have the answers, I'm not a politician nor a diplomat. I do despair at the situation, of course. It's just all this talk of war is un-nerving and the young bucks here, the wargasm addicts with their appetite for destruction and the "we" have to do this and "we" have to do that...

I fear for mankind, sometimes. And not just from the machinations of Pyongyang

I get where you are coming from but there are some problems you just can't hug away. Sanctions etc have failed in NK - only the people suffer and it has not stopped their nuclear programs

old hippy

old hippy wrote: »

That's it, exactly. Of course there is opposition but it is hushed and fearful. And hardly surprising, too, given what happens to perceived enemies of the state.

I don't have the answers, I'm not a politician nor a diplomat. I do despair at the situation, of course. It's just all this talk of war is un-nerving and the young bucks here, the wargasm addicts with their appetite for destruction and the "we" have to do this and "we" have to do that...

I fear for mankind, sometimes. And not just from the machinations of Pyongyang

Slowly having a few million more die through "famine" and aid getting cut off isn't a preferable outcome IMO. There's some who love a bloody good war, there's some who can see that the status quo probably isn't much better even in the medium term.

Yurt

Yurt wrote: »

BREAKING: 'Dozens of people seriously injured' after 2 explosions near finish of Boston Marathon

It's begun !

That sounds so unlikely to be NK inspired, more likely a local nutter!

scamalert

yeah its too boring now,everyday new threats,just waste of air coming from the chubby.I wonder how much intelligence US have where the little leader travels and stays most the time,as better option is to drop some shells on one area where most of them gather and see who would step up after kims generation is wiped out,then maybe drop some fliers with a peace sign or smth to let people know they are free.

CiaranK

Panorama is just starting on BBC1 now for anyone interested

o1s1n

CiaranK wrote: »

Panorama is just starting on BBC1 now for anyone interested

Was really looking forward to watching it and now I can't switch off BBC News!

ballsymchugh

john sweeney's tour guides are up sh1t creek now, seeing that he got away from them to have a wander around the hotel.

opinion guy

Holy F**k they have a subway ?:eek:

_Kaiser_

opinion guy wrote: »

Holy F**k they have a subway ?:eek:

And hospitals without patients... hmm