North Korea v USA Mega Merge.

danniemcq

At this stage can China not invade?

It would be much much easier all round.

The last thing the Chinese want is a war between NK and a combined US/SK/ally. If there is then either Korea will become one nation with no divide or at the very least a new leader favoured by "the west"

If this happens then the Chinese will feel a lot more insecure without a buffer zone between them and a US Ally and under the guise of "rebuilding" the US could mass tanks and troops along the boarder directly with China as at the minute no US ally has direct land contact with China. This could put pressure on China to support NK and it could also bring Russia into it too. (Small roles at the start no doubt but the Korean war showed what could happen with Chinese troops and Russian hardware and some troops)

If the Chinese however invaded NK though and put in their own favourable leader you would have the usual grumblings in public from leaders (not that much though) but behind closed doors there would be worldwide relief. nobody is going to go to NK's aid as either A) they don't have one or nobody wants to mess with China right now not even Russia. They install their favourable leader but at least act the good guy and allow HUGE relief effort from all over the world allowed in no questions asked.

This would give much more stability in the region; it would leave someone in charge that isn't going to threaten to nuke every other country in the world?

Thirdfox

danniemcq wrote: »

At this stage can China not invade?

It would be much much easier all round.

The last thing the Chinese want is a war between NK and a combined US/SK/ally. If there is then either Korea will become one nation with no divide or at the very least a new leader favoured by "the west"

If this happens then the Chinese will feel a lot more insecure without a buffer zone between them and a US Ally and under the guise of "rebuilding" the US could mass tanks and troops along the boarder directly with China as at the minute no US ally has direct land contact with China. This could put pressure on China to support NK and it could also bring Russia into it too. (Small roles at the start no doubt but the Korean war showed what could happen with Chinese troops and Russian hardware and some troops)

If the Chinese however invaded NK though and put in their own favourable leader you would have the usual grumblings in public from leaders (not that much though) but behind closed doors there would be worldwide relief. nobody is going to go to NK's aid as either A) they don't have one or nobody wants to mess with China right now not even Russia. They install their favourable leader but at least act the good guy and allow HUGE relief effort from all over the world allowed in no questions asked.

This would give much more stability in the region; it would leave someone in charge that isn't going to threaten to nuke every other country in the world?

No - effectively that would be asking China to expend its people and blood for a cause that it doesn't fully believe in.

Perhaps with American influence we now think of military action as reasonable but the Chinese thinking (in my opinion) is that when faced with a nuclear armed nation that may be desperate enough to use them you don't charge in guns blazing.

And as China's military industrial complex isn't economically valuable (compared to their day to day exports) the international backlash you would get from invading another country will do huge damage to their economy. China would have to deal with millions of refugees, reconstructing their country, etc. etc. - things that it can ill afford to do with its limited resources and problems domestically.

The Cold War is over - the use of NK as a buffer zone is less relevant. I'm sure China would prefer the US to bloody its own nose, and fall further into debt by engaging in a costly war and rebuilding scheme in North Korea.

The real "losers" from NK falling would be South Korea I imagine - think East/West Germany but I daresay the gap is even larger.

Global trade is more important than war - though if you partially base your economy on war then that muddies the water somewhat.

danniemcq

Thirdfox wrote: »

No - effectively that would be asking China to expend its people and blood for a cause that it doesn't fully believe in.

Perhaps with American influence we now think of military action as reasonable but the Chinese thinking (in my opinion) is that when faced with a nuclear armed nation that may be desperate enough to use them you don't charge in guns blazing.

And as China's military industrial complex isn't economically valuable (compared to their day to day exports) the international backlash you would get from invading another country will do huge damage to their economy. China would have to deal with millions of refugees, reconstructing their country, etc. etc. - things that it can ill afford to do with its limited resources and problems domestically.

The Cold War is over - the use of NK as a buffer zone is less relevant. I'm sure China would prefer the US to bloody its own nose, and fall further into debt by engaging in a costly war and rebuilding scheme in North Korea.

The real "losers" from NK falling would be South Korea I imagine - think East/West Germany but I daresay the gap is even larger.

Global trade is more important than war - though if you partially base your economy on war then that muddies the water somewhat.

Yeah it'd be an invasion for a cause they don't fully believe in (highly doubt they actually care about civilian suffering in a neighboring country due to their own lack of caring for their own population) however it would be an excuse to flex their muscle against what would be a much weaker enemy.

I doubt you would have the same issues the US is having/had in Iraq with a civil war/uprising in NK. You have a weaker population who have been conditioned to fear the West and see them as the Devil so a Chinese invasion would put them on the back foot. I also doubt the general population would be as well armed as Iraqi civilians.

A Chinese invasion would be a huge egg on the face of both SK and the US as no doubt both would instantly offer help be it troops or arms and the Chinese could (and probably would) just say no.

With the growing tensions in the area though between China and Japan and China and Taiwan this show of strength would show China to be a force to be reckoned with. Especially seeing as the Chinese would actually have some real combat experienced troops. (Training is one thing but actually having experience from doing something is always better). It would also allow them to iron out any kinks in the chain of command or anywhere else on the line.

With regards the buffer zone it wasn't the cold war that made China want it, it was just the Chinese not wanting the US so close.

With the US ally of Taiwan high on the Chinese wish list its almost inevitable that they will try and take it by force. This will force the US into the war but lacking an ability to move troops freely and having to rely on airborne to make any headway on the Chinese mainland as I can't see any other countries along the Chinese boarder allowing troops to be moved through or stationed (or at least not to any great effect out of fear of reprisals if the Chinese won. (possibly India/Pakistan/Afghanistan but can't see pouring troops into any of these could be seen as a good idea but the locals especially Pakistan or Afghanistan) so a 1500km wide crossing point could be quite valuable.

I'd also imagine the Chinese would have a much better knowledge of defenses NK have compared to the US and most of the troops NK have would be preparing for a fight at the SK border (probably where any nukes or chemical weapons they have are pointed) so the element of surprise would be massive and if done correctly an assassination of Kim Jun Un and some advisors would throw the command into disarray.

scamalert

danniemcq wrote: »

however it would be an excuse to flex their muscle against what would be a much weaker enemy.

If that was the case the NK would be long gone.Nk takes Chinese as their ally,china is neutral because they dont want invasion of millions poor workers and mouths to feed,as they have their own 1billion+ people.So Chinese give them crumbs to stay in their place and that's it.And they dont need to show any power as numbers them self put china's economy as no1 ,but thats mainly to huge exports to US/EU and rest of the world.Us alone owes china over 12 trillion dollars,which makes them basically owned by china,dunno how much 0s is that :rolleyes: but i bet US would love to clean that number up if they could.

danniemcq

scamalert wrote: »

If that was the case the NK would be long gone.Nk takes Chinese as their ally,china is neutral because they dont want invasion of millions poor workers and mouths to feed,as they have their own 1billion+ people.So Chinese give them crumbs to stay in their place and that's it.And they dont need to show any power as numbers them self put china's economy as no1 ,but thats mainly to huge exports to US/EU and rest of the world.Us alone owes china over 12 trillion dollars,which makes them basically owned by china,dunno how much 0s is that :rolleyes: but i bet US would love to clean that number up if they could.

i gotta disagree with this, yes the reason they haven't done it before could be many things, waste of troops/waste of money/influx of refugess/economic reasons but now they see NK getting more and more crazy for lack of a better word.

Like my previous point they do not want a US ally on their boarder and this would ensure the buffer zone remains.

Can't see anyone wanting a war but if i was running China its what i'd do

scamalert

yeah like those billions from exports they get would mean nothing to them.I didnt say china wants US ally as they have enough power atm as it is,but dunno if they would risk getting international ban on all their exports.The world is changing rapidly and china isn't same as it was 20-30 years ago its still using communism as their government foundation,but its open to the world now,and enjoys the benefits of the western world,honk Kong is independent zone,taiwan,all the iphones,lgs,sony and thousands more are made and produced in china.So to assume they would get anything from invading useless country is just waste of all resources and people.
Only we hear about NK as they being pressed so hard that only way for them to get anything is to threaten the south and get some first aid.
The easiest way to disarm NK would be to stop all foreign aid to them,once theres no supply of food and meds it would be only matter of months before all population would start collapsing,and with 0 ability to move any direction,the army numbers wouldn't matter as the more in one spot the easier to kill by thousands from 10km height.destroy the main airports,harbors and communication lines and youll have NK crouching through their own traps and mines to get to the fences of the border.If there will ever be a war it will be about keeping them out from the south,not going in.
I dont understand how people here think that numbers of army mean any power to this day,as all their land is exposed from google earth probably more accurate then their maps will ever be,as country who is 50 years old behind technology is sticks and stones.

stateofflux

scamalert wrote: »

yeah like those billions from exports they get would mean nothing to them.I didnt say china wants US ally as they have enough power atm as it is,but dunno if they would risk getting international ban on all their exports.The world is changing rapidly and china isn't same as it was 20-30 years ago its still using communism as their government foundation,but its open to the world now,and enjoys the benefits of the western world,honk Kong is independent zone,taiwan,all the iphones,lgs,sony and thousands more are made and produced in china.So to assume they would get anything from invading useless country is just waste of all resources and people.
Only we hear about NK as they being pressed so hard that only way for them to get anything is to threaten the south and get some first aid.
The easiest way to disarm NK would be to stop all foreign aid to them,once theres no supply of food and meds it would be only matter of months before all population would start collapsing,and with 0 ability to move any direction,the army numbers wouldn't matter as the more in one spot the easier to kill by thousands from 10km height.destroy the main airports,harbors and communication lines and youll have NK crouching through their own traps and mines to get to the fences of the border.If there will ever be a war it will be about keeping them out from the south,not going in.

like dresden...

Cork boy 55

B-52 to SK



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/19/us-flies-nuclear-capable-b-52-bombers-over-south-korea-amid-rising-tensions/?intcmp=trending

Captain Chaos

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

B-52 to SK



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/19/us-flies-nuclear-capable-b-52-bombers-over-south-korea-amid-rising-tensions/?intcmp=trending

If they wanted to put the sh!ts up them they would deploy B-2 stealth bombers. Not B-52s that can be shot down unless all the SAMs are disabled by waves of smaller fighters first.

A B-2 can drop 16 nukes each and not be seen on any radar if they use they right tactics. A B-52 can launch long range cruise missiles but nuclear warhead versions of these missiles were removed and destroyed under a nuclear arms treaty with Russia many years ago.

_Kaiser_

I don't think anything will come of this - China will step in before it goes too far and simply remove the NK leadership themselves.

They own half of the US after all - plus they're not going to want a nuclear war on their own doorstep.

Red Pepper

orestes wrote: »

This isn't USSR cold war stuff, this is an idiot poking a bear with a stick.

Actually Russia/USSR was always associated with a the Bear. In this case its an idiot poking an Eagle with a stick. Or perhaps a Wren poking an Eagle with a stick. And we all know what happens when a Wren messes with an Eagle. Or do we? Then again Wrens are really cute, much cuter than annoying North Koreans. So its more like a Willy Wagtail (slightly less cute and annoying with a hangover) poking an Eagle with a stick or twig if you know what I mean (I hope someone does)...my point is that you are an idiot. Actually no, thats not my point at all. I don't have a point except I like Russian Bears...a lot.

Sue me.

Conmaicne Mara

scamalert wrote: »

The easiest way to disarm NK would be to stop all foreign aid to them,once theres no supply of food and meds it would be only matter of months before all population would start collapsing,and with 0 ability to move any direction,the army numbers wouldn't matter as the more in one spot the easier to kill by thousands from 10km height.destroy the main airports,harbors and communication lines and youll have NK crouching through their own traps and mines to get to the fences of the border.If there will ever be a war it will be about keeping them out from the south,not going in.
I dont understand how people here think that numbers of army mean any power to this day,as all their land is exposed from google earth probably more accurate then their maps will ever be,as country who is 50 years old behind technology is sticks and stones.

I think you should look up how many artillery pieces are in range of Seoul, and how many rounds per minute those guns can fire. Then consider missiles of various sorts, topped by God knows what. Then look up the population of Seoul and realise it's only 40km from the DMZ. And, as if that weren't enough, the NK ground forces are mostly "forward deployed" as in ready to go, not going to give you much warning.

What happens when someone get's forced into a corner, they lash out.

This has always been the problem with NK, how to solve the riddle without the capital of an important economic country like SK being set ablaze.

Yes, NK regime would likely cease to exist after such a conflict, but the cost of that conflict is something the "West" is not likely to bring upon itself.

_Kaiser_

Captain Chaos wrote: »

If they wanted to put the sh!ts up them they would deploy B-2 stealth bombers. Not B-52s that can be shot down unless all the SAMs are disabled by waves of smaller fighters first.

A B-2 can drop 16 nukes each and not be seen on any radar. A B-52 can launch long range cruise missiles but nuclear warhead versions of these missiles were removed and destroyed under a nuclear arms treaty with Russia many years ago.

Who's to say a B-2 or two (:)) didn't make the trip as well? It doesn't have to be announced in the press - leaking it through local channels would be enough to get the message across.

Captain Chaos

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Who's to say a B-2 or two (:)) didn't make the trip as well? It doesn't have to be announced in the press - leaking it through local channels would be enough to get the message across.

B-2s never forward deploy though. There are only 3-4 bases in the world that have the support facilities to look after them on the ground. Diago Garcia is the closest base to NK that can look after them. They just mid air refuel all the there and back.

Cork boy 55

BREAKING from the ONN

ESCALATION
North Korea destroyed Asia 4000 megadeaths estimated
USA condemns and promises to bring it up at UN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8nrdiQqFAs

Conmaicne Mara

Captain Chaos wrote: »

B-2s never forward deploy though. There are only 3-4 bases in the world that have the support facilities to look after them on the ground. Diago Garcia is the closest base to NK that can look after them. They just mid air refuel all the there and back.

The B-52's came from Guam.

Hitchens

North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un has launched a fresh threat to strike targets on the US mainland, Hawaii and Guam, as well as South Korea.



Is he serious though, or deluded?

Celly Smunt

Hitchens wrote: »

North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un has launched a fresh threat to strike targets on the US mainland, Hawaii and Guam, as well as South Korea.



Is he serious though, or deluded?

A man with a big load of words and very little action.

ScumLord

Hitchens wrote: »

Is he serious though, or deluded?

Kim can be both.

Dwork

pmcmahon wrote: »

A man with a big load of words and very little action.

Shut up. He'll hear you, and being a deluded little runt, he will launch an attack. You'll have millions of deaths on your concience. I presume Kim is on Boards? I think he might be Mr Wong.

AlmightyCushion

Hitchens wrote: »

North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un has launched a fresh threat to strike targets on the US mainland, Hawaii and Guam, as well as South Korea.



Is he serious though, or deluded?

They don't have the technology to hit a target that far away.

Hitchens

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They don't have the technology to hit a target that far away.

The US has repositioned missile defence systems on America's west coast all the same.

AllGunsBlazing

I wonder if the new guy's authority is as strong as it appears from the outside.

A lot of this smacks of a leader who is trying too hard to look the big man in front of his own people. Does he fear the axe from his followers?

scamalert

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They don't have the technology to hit a target that far away.

well actually they launched a satellite into the ocean and few other long range missiles.
as for hawaii ,neither japan or australia, new zeland wont allow any $hit flying over their heads.Anyway another crap story to get attention and some food aid from their side,poor clowns dont have any other choice.

fran oconnor

Hope the Yanks go and kick the balls out of them, mouthy gob****es

markesmith

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Wing Attack plan R to the 843rd bomb wing

2 B-83 bombs set for 1.2 megaton yield would suffice dropped by a single B2 bomber
on a single pass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B83_nuclear_bomb

Primary Target Pyongsong ( not to be confused with Pyongyang )
Secondary target Hamhung

Estimated Nork losses of 10 Megadeaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megadeath

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUCLHzWiJo

Capt'n Midnight

What's the real story that this is supposed to distract us from ?

corkgsxr

ScumLord wrote: »

Kim can be both.

Kim invented both

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They don't have the technology to hit a target that far away.

Easily bought

Amalgam

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What's the real story that this is supposed to distract us from ?

Starvation, probably.

A recent TED talk on the matter.

Hyeonseo Lee: My escape from North Korea

I can't say if it's NSFW or not, but some of the photos in the video are rather depressing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdxPCeWw75k

AlmightyCushion

corkgsxr wrote: »

Kim invented both



Easily bought

Not that easily seeing as they can't even launch a satelite into space which is a lot easier than developing an ICBM which would be necessary to hit the US.