North Korea v USA Mega Merge.

end of the road

P_1 wrote: »

The nukes were never about beating Japan, The reason for using them was to warn the Soviets off

partly, the main use of them was as an experiment to see what actual damage they could do, sure they did testing before use but what better way to see what they can really do then droping them on cities full of innocent men women and children to see the damage and effects in a live environment

Cork boy 55

"No comment | euronews: The most striking images from around the world without commentary."


Kim Jong Un chased by his military fans - no comment
North Korean broadcaster KRT has released a documentary film showing leader Kim Jong Un inspecting military bases and observing exercises over a period of two months. The film release coincides with joint US-South Korean military exercises known as Foal Eagle, which started on March 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAPl-2xWPzE

gallag

JJayoo wrote: »

North Korea would never manage to hit the US with a long range missile, it would be intercepted and destroyed. Seoul on the other hand is a much easier target to hit.

People over estimate the abilities of missile defense, if n.k can get a icbm out of our atmosphere on re-entry it can travel at about 12-15,000mph with several war heads separating each with defences and tricks to hit their targets. Imagine how hard and unpredictable shooting down a missile that is travelling fast enough to circumnavigate the globe every hour. Only safe missile defence is to preemptively strike the launch site 10 years from now n.k could have some missiles that would make the yanks worry.

BlatentCheek

666irishguy wrote: »

LOL Vietnam was 40 years ago. Very different type of conflict. Unlikely the North Korean leaders will be waging a guerrilla war with the support of their own people or the Chinese who would much rather dollars than promoting world communism. Have you heard of Desert Storm? The fifth largest army in the world, apparently filled with die hard soldiers willing to lay down their lives for their glorious leader, was wiped out in 3 days. How long do you think the average North Korean conscript would last when the South Koreans and Americans will be using them as target practice since their own air force was blown out of the sky/shot to bits on the ground about 12 hours into the war?

Desert Storm was very different too. Crucially the terrain was largely open desert which maximised the advantages the coalition possessed; Korea is very mountainous in comparison. Allied air superiority failed to bring about victory there in 1950-53, although it helped massively in staving off defeat. The human element in the comparison is much less predictable but it's safe to assume that an utterly totalitarian regime ruling since the 1940s will have indoctrinated it's people much more completely than Saddam ever did the Iraqi's, particularly given the deep ethnic divisions within Iraq along which opposition to Saddam mobilized, which have no equal in NK. No one doubts that NK is beatable. South Korea itself is a potent military force before you even consider the colossus that is the USA. A conflict would be extremely damaging however, Both Korea's would be in ruins, Japan may suffer nuclear attack and the risk of conflict with China would be hugely heightened by an invasion of NK.

The Chinese wouldn't be promoting world communism by getting involved, they'd be reacting to the threat of the armies of the world's other superpower and ideological rival, the USA, engaged on their doorstep. Much as they enjoy making money their rise to economic power has been accompanied by a belief that they deserve consideration due to a superpower and respect for their spheres of influence is a must. I'd expect them to demand a preservation of NK as a buffer state, with the deposal of the Kims and a transition to a government similar to and aligned with China. At a minimum they'd insist on specific assurances of nonaggression and some degree of demilitarisation on the korean peninsula post-war

666irishguy

end of the road wrote: »

partly, the main use of them was as an experiment to see what actual damage they could do, sure they did testing before use but what better way to see what they can really do then droping them on cities full of innocent men women and children to see the damage and effects in a live environment

I think the idea that they were dropped as an experiment and not a military tactic is over used. They already had a fair idea of the yield of one of them and what massive bombings would do to a Japanese city. I doubt they were also dropping them to see if radiation was a useful weapon, though they did study it intensely after the war. The facts would argue the biggest reason they were dropped was to spare the US the estimated 100,000 plus dead and 500,000 to a million wounded they would have accumulated in an invasion of Japan, with the added effect of showing the Soviets what they now had. It's a cliche but it saved more lives than it took. If the war had gone on much longer, the US would have carried out more fire bombings like Tokyo, which killed more than both atomic bombs combined in one night and the Japanese military would have just shipped countless more off to whatever hopeless battle they were in. Considering the Japanese actions in Korea and China, I think they were lucky the Chinese weren't dropping them, I doubt they would have stopped at two bombs if they had the choice to use them. Perhaps another thread is in order for that debate.

gallag

666irishguy wrote: »

with the added effect of showing the Soviets what they now had.

This is what it was all about.

666irishguy

BlatentCheek wrote: »

Desert Storm was very different too. Crucially the terrain was largely open desert which maximised the advantages the coalition possessed; Korea is very mountainous in comparison. Allied air superiority failed to bring about victory there in 1950-53, although it helped massively in staving off defeat. The human element in the comparison is much less predictable but it's safe to assume that an utterly totalitarian regime ruling since the 1940s will have indoctrinated it's people much more completely than Saddam ever did the Iraqi's, particularly given the deep ethnic divisions within Iraq along which opposition to Saddam mobilized, which have no equal in NK. No one doubts that NK is beatable. South Korea itself is a potent military force before you even consider the colossus that is the USA. A conflict would be extremely damaging however, Both Korea's would be in ruins, Japan may suffer nuclear attack and the risk of conflict with China would be hugely heightened by an invasion of NK.

The Chinese wouldn't be promoting world communism by getting involved, they'd be reacting to the threat of the armies of the world's other superpower and ideological rival, the USA, engaged on their doorstep. Much as they enjoy making money their rise to economic power has been accompanied by a belief that they deserve consideration due to a superpower and respect for their spheres of influence is a must. I'd expect them to demand a preservation of NK as a buffer state, with the deposal of the Kims and a transition to a government similar to and aligned with China.

I don't think the North Korean's are as brainwashed as the media portrays them. They can access Chinese and South Korean radio and television and have got knowledge of the outside world, people do escape and defect even the border guards who are apparently the most loyal have been known to dessert.
I think the terrain would be a slowing down point, though the Balklans are not too dissimilar to the Korea's in terms of mountains and forests and the campaign against Serbia was effective from the air and that was nearly 15 years ago. I think the North Korean's own propaganda would be their Achilles heal. Their morale would surely be shattered along with their reality once they start to get hit badly at home and on the battlefield. The Chinese are the unknown quantity though. I'd suspect they would not have the ability or the desire to get a large force together quickly enough to deter the USA or SK. They might however launched a limited invasion of whatever territory the North could command and set up a smaller Chinese style North Korea in that region as a buffer. Whether North Korea could actually launch a missile at say Japan would be another huge issue. I'm sure all parties surrounding North Korea have some sort of spy ring in place to provide some kind of warning if looks like it is coming to that.

BlatentCheek

666irishguy wrote: »

I don't think the North Korean's are as brainwashed as the media portrays them. They can access Chinese and South Korean radio and television and have got knowledge of the outside world, people do escape and defect even the border guards who are apparently the most loyal have been known to dessert.
I think the terrain would be a slowing down point, though the Balklans are not too dissimilar to the Korea's in terms of mountains and forests and the campaign against Serbia was effective from the air and that was nearly 15 years ago. I think the North Korean's own propaganda would be their Achilles heal. Their morale would surely be shattered along with their reality once they start to get hit badly at home and on the battlefield. The Chinese are the unknown quantity though. I'd suspect they would not have the ability or the desire to get a large force together quickly enough to deter the USA or SK. They might however launched a limited invasion of whatever territory the North could command and set up a smaller Chinese style North Korea in that region as a buffer. Whether North Korea could actually launch a missile at say Japan would be another huge issue. I'm sure all parties surrounding North Korea have some sort of spy ring in place to provide some kind of warning if looks like it is coming to that.

Fair points. I think though that ultimately a conflict would be a huge bloodbath for everyone involved, even without Chins-US conflict. It would certainly leave recent US engagements like Iraq and Afghanistan in the shade in terms of troop losses as their forces would be engaged by a KPA assault from a standing start, as well as being within range of artillery, air and missile attack.

As a source of optimism regarding the risk of China's involvement the Chinese do have form for not letting border clashes escalate into all-out war since they had fairly large ones with the Soviets in the 1960s without going full tilt.

BTW fully agree with your points on dropping the A-bomb. I read that the US minted so many purple hearts in preparation for the invasion of Japan that they haven't had to make any new ones ever since and still have over 100,000 in stock. A land invasion would have killed far more Japanese too. Given the dedication of the Japanese and the near-certain resistence of the civilian population to the Allies it is likely that invasion would have been accompanied by almost total slaughter of all Japanese in combat areas until the Japanese surrendered. Bad as the figures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki appear, in the context of the times they were sadly not really abnormal. It was a time of total war, whereas nowadays we have limited military actions; Wars were won by massive firepower, whereas nowadays we have precision guided munitions.

kowloon

Any excuse to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8nrdiQqFAs

About as valid as any of the 'real' news stories.

DanWall

Kim Jong Un, is like an inmature kid with a video game, only this is for real, lives will be lost

zonEEE

**** could be going down!

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2013/03/11/0200000000AEN20130311001800315.HTML

zonEEE

zonEEE wrote: »

**** could be going down!

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2013/03/11/0200000000AEN20130311001800315.HTML

What's occuring?

zonEEE

N. Korea severs communication hotline with S. Korea


http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2013/03/11/99/0401000000AEN20130311002300315F.HTML

Killer Wench

In other words, the brat has finally stopped screaming, and instead has gone into their room and slammed the door LOUDLY.

zonEEE

Killer Wench wrote: »

In other words, the brat has finally stopped screaming, and instead has gone into their room and slammed the door LOUDLY.

Wait for him to turn on his ps3 and play call of duty with the real world :O

zonEEE

zonEEE wrote: »

Wait for him to turn on his ps3 and play call of duty with the real world :O

Are you for real? If you are, I sure hope he doesn't get a 25 streak MW2 style because nobody likes a booster.

Killer Wench

zonEEE wrote: »

Wait for him to turn on his ps3 and play call of duty with the real world :O

Unfortunately, they would only be able to play with South Korea, but that would be only for 15 minutes before big daddy pulled out his belt.

Alactric

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Are you for real? If you are, I sure hope he doesn't get a 25 streak MW2 style because nobody likes a booster.

Nonsense.


We all know he's Battlefield 3 man.

AllGunsBlazing

Only a matter of time before S.Korea joins the nuclear arms race to keep up with the noisy neighbours.

Killer Wench

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Only a matter of time before S.Korea joins the nuclear arms race to keep up with the noisy neighbours.

They don't need to. They have a pact with the US that requires our military to protect their country.

scamalert

when N.korea decides to launch a nuke strike,they will be the most lit country in the world ,dunno what they have in the arsenal but as far as i know all the equipment is at least 50 years old

scamalert

scamalert wrote: »

when N.korea decides to launch a nuke strike,they will be the most lit country in the world ,dunno what they have in the arsenal but as far as i know all the equipment is at least 50 years old

Doesn't matter much.. I'd find it hard to believe that the N. Koreans couldn't actually sneak a warhead/bomb into S. Korea and do massive damage without using missiles.

If they did attack first, it would almost be a case of "You can't fire me, I quit" and they'd just do as much damage as possible.

bizmark

Had to post this made me laugh

Conmaicne Mara

Deleted User wrote: »

Doesn't matter much.. I'd find it hard to believe that the N. Koreans couldn't actually sneak a warhead/bomb into S. Korea and do massive damage without using missiles.

If they did attack first, it would almost be a case of "You can't fire me, I quit" and they'd just do as much damage as possible.

If I were them I'd not waste a nuke sneaking it into SK. I'd sneak it into Japan or the USA. Why nuke your own back yard?

bizmark

Well either way your backyard front yard and house will soon be a smoking wreck if you where stupid enough to ever try it

scamalert

Deleted User wrote: »

Doesn't matter much.. I'd find it hard to believe that the N. Koreans couldn't actually sneak a warhead/bomb into S. Korea and do massive damage without using missiles.

If they did attack first, it would almost be a case of "You can't fire me, I quit" and they'd just do as much damage as possible.

even if they did manage to sneak in and launch one nuke,the technology that US have and support of surrounding countries would make them flatland's in day or two without as much as putting in few planes and ships over their heads.If it wasn't starving country with communism roots and dictatorship they might have some chances,but now even china and russia dont want to have any business with them as they have nothing to offer,unless you count couple million brainwashed starving zombies as a return.Even in Live leaks where kim pim pong is going around their military zones seems like watching wwI documentary small hungry stick men hiding in concrete bunkers watching surrounding area with 500m range binoculars,total win if you ask me

Conmaicne Mara

bizmark wrote: »

Well either way your backyard front yard and house will soon be a smoking wreck if you where stupid enough to ever try it

Not necessarily. There are bombs and there are bombs. I watched an interview on CNN a while back, the US can identify NK plutonium, but not NK uranium. IF NK could get a device undetected into AN Other country, unless they get caught red handed or they ring them up and say "Hey, look out your window there for minute......". It's going to be hard to pin it on them, particularly with the crazies in the Middle East who'd cream themselves at the chance of getting a "bomb".

ScumLord

Thirdfox wrote: »

I believe China's army is still the largest in the world - not that size is a determinative in winning battles. I wouldn't call the army nothing either (especially as if in this hypothetical battle China is mobilising the ground army and not its brown water navy).

They do have the most people in their army but they don't have the number of planes tanks, drones and missiles. The Americans can do serious damage to China without ever setting foot in the place. When it comes to a land battle they might be fairly even.

666irishguy wrote: »

How long do you think the average North Korean conscript would last when the South Koreans and Americans will be using them as target practice since their own air force was blown out of the sky/shot to bits on the ground about 12 hours into the war?

I wouldn't underestimate the N.Korean soldier, they are born into military service and know nothing else. Their life's aren't that great to begin with so they will think nothing about marching further on less resources and sleeping in tents or ditches would probably be no worse than what they have to put up with now. They are very though people, we couldn't begin to appreciate how though their lifestyle would make them.

666irishguy

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't underestimate the N.Korean soldier, they are born into military service and know nothing else. Their life's aren't that great to begin with so they will think nothing about marching further on less resources and sleeping in tents or ditches would probably be no worse than what they have to put up with now. They are very though people, we couldn't begin to appreciate how though their lifestyle would make them.

Their lifestyle may make them physically tougher and able to hold up better in certain conditions, not complain and accept than say the average South Korean might, but it still doesn't make them immune from the fact that if they go to war, their reality will be shattered. They are born into military service, but are led to believe that they will have the upper-hand. The rug would be pulled from under them very quickly and that coupled with the almost guaranteed high casualty rate they would accumalate could bring them to the tipping point of collapse quite quickly. There is also simply the fact that regardless of how tough you are mentally or physically, your odds of survival are fairly low when you may literally be out in the open and not have the technology to fight back and defend yourself.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I'm in South Korea at the moment and nobody seems to be getting too worried about this. I think they're used to bluster from the North.

By the way, the self-righteous claims that dropping the A-bombs on Japan was anymore destructive than a land invasion is very dubious. Its already been pointed out that a land invasion of the Japanese home islands would have caused far more casualties, for military and civilians alike. It would have left the entire country a bombed out wasteland. Its also worth noting that the casualties caused by the A-bombs weren't unprecedented, the fire-bombings of Japanese cities had already killed hundreds of thousands of people. And a final point is that the Soviets had recently entered the war against Japan and were engaged in the battles which led to the foundation of Communist China and the partition of Korea. Had they been given another few months they would have invaded Japan and it most likely would be partitioned like Korea to this day.