DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

Ososlo

zooming wrote: »

Hi all,
Glad to hear you all are going well with your plans, from my own humble experience of running my first Marathon, your pace will go out the window from mile 20-22 on so dont get too caught up with it!

do you feel it's a given that pace will be lost from 20 miles? does that happen everyone? id be interested to hear from you and others on this.

Dilbert75

I'd be aiming for an even pace throughout. If you slow down towards the end, you've started too fast.

Ososlo

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I'd be aiming for an even pace throughout. If you slow down towards the end, you've started too fast.

that's what i would have thought/hoped

Mr Slow

zooming wrote: »

Hi all,
Glad to hear you all are going well with your plans, from my own humble experience of running my first Marathon, your pace will go out the window from mile 20-22 on so dont get too caught up with it!

I have to disagree completely with Zooming, if your training has gone well and you choose a realistic target, it will be difficult towards the end (that's why it's called the marathon) and your pace may slow a bit but it will only 'go out the window' if you've blown it by not pacing wisely early on.

career_move

Mr Slow wrote: »

I have to disagree completely with Zooming, if your training has gone well and you choose a realistic target, it will be difficult towards the end (that's why it's called the marathon) and your pace may slow a bit but it will only 'go out the window' if you've blown it by not pacing wisely early on.

+1 on this. I think I'm right in saying that Zooming followed HH Novice 1 and was injured for a time before Edinburgh. In my experience of 2 marathons people only slow drastically in the last 6 miles if they ran too aggressively early on or if they hadn't done enough/consistent mileage/long slow runs

career_move

Laois_Man wrote: »

Problem with that is your marathon pace is used to calculate what your LSR pace should be.

Guys don't be worrying about doing your long slow runs too slowly. I have never heard of anyone who had a bad marathon experience blaming it on having done the lsr too slowly. If you're following my plan you'll be doing the pace runs mid week to get a feel of running at marathon pace. The lsr is all about time on your feet and teaching your body to use fat as an energy source so that when the glycogen in your muscles runs low during the race your body adapts to use fat instead so that the energy supply remains constant. Here is a link to that first post I did about the different runs. You'll have plenty of time after the HM to change your marathon pace if you need to. Right now your lsr should be all about being able to hold a conversation while you run. This does not mean gasping a few words while you struggle to breath Your breathing should be relaxed and just a few breaths quicker than at rest

zooming

when i said out the window I meant that really by mile 22 you will possibly be tiring and the pace matters less more to finish is the goal for most novices? I past a lot of people walking from mile 20, i slowed a bit at mile 23 but as my goal was to finish I wasnt too worried. So many people are worried about time time time and it can all change depending on the day. Just enjoy it.

Ososlo

zooming wrote: »

when i said out the window I meant that really by mile 22 you will possibly be tiring and the pace matters less more to finish is the goal for most novices? I past a lot of people walking from mile 20, i slowed a bit at mile 23 but as my goal was to finish I wasnt too worried. So many people are worried about time time time and it can all change depending on the day. Just enjoy it.

yes but within reason, for me anyway. Yes I am worried about time, but not a really specific time, but I don't see what's wrong with having a time in mind, even for a novice. I'm training very hard for this since I started at the beginning of the year and putting in 40+ miles a week 20 weeks away from my goal race this year. Yes I would expect to slow the more tired I get towards the end but if I thought now that my pace would go out the window from 20 miles or so I would probably hang up my runners now! I do completely understand though that a novice is in unknown territory at that point so factors that are out of your control may mess things up completely for you but if one tries to be prepared for everything possible that is under your control then surely there's a fairly good chance of a strong finish if one has a realistic goal and paces really well from mile 1 and most importantly, trains sensibly?

career_move

Ososlo wrote: »

they're the ones as far as i know. Maybe career_move or someone who did it last year can confirm that these were the ones used in 2012. I didn't pay much heed to the info about the gels as I'll be carrying powerbar gels.

rom wrote: »

lucozade sport and the spar sports drink I presume. The spar drink is very gassy I found and not suitable for a race. The high 5 gels are generally the flavours that aren't very popular so if you have a favourite then best to carry your own. All gels are not equal so best to research which one is best for you.

I would recommend finding a gel that you like and carrying your own for DCM. It's probably best to get a few different types (flavours, with/without caffeine, isogels/normal gels etc) and see which you prefer. I got a box of 24 berry flavour isogels last year and I still have some left but I am so sick of them I'm hating even the thought of them at this stage. I definitely wouldn't be banking on just getting the ones supplied by the race because IMO you need to be taking them earlier than they are provided and it's not guaranteed that you will get one even at the stations - you might miss the station/all the gels might be gone etc.

zooming

Ososlo wrote: »

yes but within reason, for me anyway. Yes I am worried about time, but not a really specific time, but I don't see what's wrong with having a time in mind, even for a novice. I'm training very hard for this since I started at the beginning of the year and putting in 40+ miles a week 20 weeks away from my goal race this year. Yes I would expect to slow the more tired I get towards the end but if I thought now that my pace would go out the window from 20 miles or so I would probably hang up my runners now! I do completely understand though that a novice is in unknown territory at that point so factors that are out of your control may mess things up completely for you but if one tries to be prepared for everything possible that is under your control then surely there's a fairly good chance of a strong finish if one has a realistic goal and paces really well from mile 1 and most importantly, trains sensibly?

Absolutely. Good luck!

Big Logger

zooming wrote: »

when i said out the window I meant that really by mile 22 you will possibly be tiring and the pace matters less more to finish is the goal for most novices? I past a lot of people walking from mile 20, i slowed a bit at mile 23 but as my goal was to finish I wasnt too worried. So many people are worried about time time time and it can all change depending on the day. Just enjoy it.

Ososlo wrote: »

yes but within reason, for me anyway. Yes I am worried about time, but not a really specific time, but I don't see what's wrong with having a time in mind, even for a novice. I'm training very hard for this since I started at the beginning of the year and putting in 40+ miles a week 20 weeks away from my goal race this year. Yes I would expect to slow the more tired I get towards the end but if I thought now that my pace would go out the window from 20 miles or so I would probably hang up my runners now! I do completely understand though that a novice is in unknown territory at that point so factors that are out of your control may mess things up completely for you but if one tries to be prepared for everything possible that is under your control then surely there's a fairly good chance of a strong finish if one has a realistic goal and paces really well from mile 1 and most importantly, trains sensibly?

There are different sides to this depending on your goal, time available, fitness etc.
I would be leaning towards Zooming, i think its a more honest account of what happens in the marathon for novices and a lot of more experienced runners alike..
They go out too fast, they don't put in enough long runs for the distance and then theres the fact that it is 26.2 miles and for most people the last 6 are an unknown.
Ideally everyone would do what Mr slow and c_m have said but most will end up having the experience that Zooming has spoken about.
This is a learners thread so nobody is going to recommend that and some probably won't admit it even happened to them.

career_move

Guys I meant to remind everyone about how common and debilitating iron deficiency is in runners (esp female) and to suggest that it might be worthwhile getting a blood test done before you start serious training. This is a fantastic post from Rolex on the subject

Big Logger

career_move wrote: »

Guys I meant to remind everyone about how common and debilitating iron deficiency is in runners (esp female) and to suggest that it might be worthwhile getting a blood test done before you start serious training. This is a fantastic post from Rolex on the subject

Has anyone any recommendations of Iron supplements which dont cause constipation and is relatively easy to take?

Ososlo

Big Logger wrote: »

Has anyone any recommendations of Iron supplements which dont cause constipation and is relatively easy to take?

have you tried just trying to get it from your food? I'm vegetarian so can't comment on the meat sources which I'm sure are the best, but non-meat wise then spinach is fantastic or any other green leafy veg and any nuts, seeds, pulses. Supplement wise I find the standard Boots ones fine if you're really well hydrated you shouldn't have any aahhhemm issues;)

Big Logger

Ososlo wrote: »

have you tried just trying to get it from your food? I'm vegetarian so can't comment on the meat sources which I'm sure are the best, but non-meat wise then spinach is fantastic or any other green leafy veg and any nuts, seeds, pulses. Supplement wise I find the standard Boots ones fine if you're really well hydrated you shouldn't have any aahhhemm issues;)

Yeah I was thinking to myself that I have a fantastic diet really, I would wonder though if some Iron might help me out a bit when the training gets a bit more intense.

I take a multi vitamin but most of them have a tiny amount of Iron.
I also take a double dose of Evening Primrose Oil which is brilliant.

Mr Slow

Big Logger wrote: »

Has anyone any recommendations of Iron supplements which dont cause constipation and is relatively easy to take?

As CM says get a blood test done before you start taking iron, you may be fine and if so, supplementing with something lke iron when you don't need it can have worse implications that being deficient in it.

Just to clarify about your pace at the end of the marathon, those walking at the end are either injured or weren't fit enough/had enough endurance for the pace they set out at. For those of you worried about how you'll run farther than 20 miles you will run 20 miles at least once at the end of a hard week's training at the end of a full training schedule, you'll then taper down for 3 weeks so you're running on fresh legs on the day. Simples.:)

Big Logger

Mr Slow wrote: »

As CM says get a blood test done before you start taking iron, you may be fine and if so, supplementing with something lke iron when you don't need it can have worse implications that being deficient in it.

Just to clarify about your pace at the end of the marathon, those walking at the end are either injured or weren't fit enough/had enough endurance for the pace they set out at. For those of you worried about how you'll run farther than 20 miles you will run 20 miles at least once at the end of a hard week's training at the end of a full training schedule, you'll then taper down for 3 weeks so you're running on fresh legs on the day. Simples.:)

Cheers mr slow...yeah i'm a coward with dr visits i have to say. Always expecting the worst news or finding out something i dont want to know :rolleyes:

also to clarify i wasnt talking about walking, its not good if you're walking...shuffling is the word i'd use

Mr Slow

Big Logger wrote: »

also to clarify i wasnt talking about walking, its not good if you're walking...shuffling is the word i'd use

Sorry, that was more a general post, not directed at you.:o

zooming

Big Logger wrote: »

There are different sides to this depending on your goal, time available, fitness etc.
I would be leaning towards Zooming, i think its a more honest account of what happens in the marathon for novices and a lot of more experienced runners alike..
They go out too fast, they don't put in enough long runs for the distance and then theres the fact that it is 26.2 miles and for most people the last 6 are an unknown.
Ideally everyone would do what Mr slow and c_m have said but most will end up having the experience that Zooming has spoken about.
This is a learners thread so nobody is going to recommend that and some probably won't admit it even happened to them.

Thanks!
I have read a number of books and am on other running forums and the advice from all levels of runners/coaches etc is for your first marathon focus on getting round and FINISHING all in one piece..lol Nothing wrong with a goal time, I wanted to initially do a 5 hour marathon, once I had several long runs done I realised that was not going to happen and I re evaluated my time goal to 5 1/2 hours, but TBH my main thought was to finish it running which I did. For me to say Im upset cos I didnt get my goal time would be silly considering this is my first marathon. Sometimes this forum confuses me and Ive said it before I thought it was for NOVICE marathon runners?
I was chatting to a guy at the start of the marathon, he was 50 years old and Edinburgh was going to be his 10th marathon. His times were all around the 5 to 6 hour mark, he said to me that he ran consistently under 12 min miles until mile 22 then he found he always dropped away down to 15 or 16 minute miles until the finish. This guy was great to chat to, I should have gotten his name because he is on my level so to speak, he spoke honestly and truthfully about his experience as I have done too, I hope that you all have a great DCM and enjoy the event.

Ososlo

zooming wrote: »

Thanks!
I have read a number of books and am on other running forums and the advice from all levels of runners/coaches etc is for your first marathon focus on getting round and FINISHING all in one piece..lol Nothing wrong with a goal time, I wanted to initially do a 5 hour marathon, once I had several long runs done I realised that was not going to happen and I re evaluated my time goal to 5 1/2 hours, but TBH my main thought was to finish it running which I did. For me to say Im upset cos I didnt get my goal time would be silly considering this is my first marathon. Sometimes this forum confuses me and Ive said it before I thought it was for NOVICE marathon runners?
I was chatting to a guy at the start of the marathon, he was 50 years old and Edinburgh was going to be his 10th marathon. His times were all around the 5 to 6 hour mark, he said to me that he ran consistently under 12 min miles until mile 22 then he found he always dropped away down to 15 or 16 minute miles until the finish. This guy was great to chat to, I should have gotten his name because he is on my level so to speak, he spoke honestly and truthfully about his experience as I have done too, I hope that you all have a great DCM and enjoy the event.

Of course it's for novice marathon runners. That's the whole point! Novice doesn't have to mean under a certain time/pace. Novices speed/mileage will vary obviously. Goals will vary. For some people that'll be sub 3:30, others 4, others 5, others 6. Others just want to complete it full stop. Each to their own! You yourself had a goal time in mind from what you said. The important thing for us all is to be able to revise any goals nearer the time if necessary. That revision might be upwards or downwards. Nothing wrong with either. It's all to do with ones own personal goal at the end of the day. This is very much a novices' thread. We're all going through a lot of the same things for the first time whatever pace we're doing it at. Common denominator is that none of us ran a marathon before (although I think there are one or two that have) but majority haven't.

career_move

zooming wrote: »

Thanks!
Sometimes this forum confuses me and Ive said it before I thought it was for NOVICE marathon runners?

What is confusing about it? The people this thread is aimed at are doing their first or second marathon in Dublin. The fact that they are novices does not mean they are going to slow drastically in the last 6 miles of DCM if they do proper training and race at a pace consistent with their training. Just like an experienced marathoner is not guaranteed to hold his or her pace.

Big Logger

zooming wrote: »

Thanks!
I have read a number of books and am on other running forums and the advice from all levels of runners/coaches etc is for your first marathon focus on getting round and FINISHING all in one piece..lol Nothing wrong with a goal time, I wanted to initially do a 5 hour marathon, once I had several long runs done I realised that was not going to happen and I re evaluated my time goal to 5 1/2 hours, but TBH my main thought was to finish it running which I did. For me to say Im upset cos I didnt get my goal time would be silly considering this is my first marathon. Sometimes this forum confuses me and Ive said it before I thought it was for NOVICE marathon runners?
I was chatting to a guy at the start of the marathon, he was 50 years old and Edinburgh was going to be his 10th marathon. His times were all around the 5 to 6 hour mark, he said to me that he ran consistently under 12 min miles until mile 22 then he found he always dropped away down to 15 or 16 minute miles until the finish. This guy was great to chat to, I should have gotten his name because he is on my level so to speak, he spoke honestly and truthfully about his experience as I have done too, I hope that you all have a great DCM and enjoy the event.

I hear ya Zooming and I'm glad you're vocal about your opinions. You represent a certain running type on this site who tend to sit in the background cause they're over shadowed by more competitive folks.

pconn062

Ososlo wrote: »

Of course it's for novice marathon runners. That's the whole point! Novice doesn't have to mean under a certain time/pace. Novices speed/mileage will vary obviously. Goals will vary. For some people that'll be sub 3:30, others 4, others 5, others 6. Others just want to complete it full stop. Each to their own! You yourself had a goal time in mind from what you said. The important thing for us all is to be able to revise any goals nearer the time if necessary. That revision might be upwards or downwards. Nothing wrong with either. It's all to do with ones own personal goal at the end of the day. This is very much a novices' thread. We're all going through a lot of the same things for the first time whatever pace we're doing it at. Common denominator is that none of us ran a marathon before (although I think there are one or two that have) but majority haven't.

So novice =======> slow and unambitious? You know your first marathon doesn't have to be about "just getting around", it's perfectly fine to set an aggressive target so long as you train properly. And we wonder why standards are slipping.

Ososlo

Big Logger wrote: »

I hear ya Zooming and I'm glad you're vocal about your opinions. You represent a certain running type on this site who tend to sit in the background cause they're over shadowed by more competitive folks.

I think that's a bit unfair tbh. Zooming got loads of support in her thread in the past and just as much encouragement/support as other "competitive" runner. Anyone who comes onto boards with a reasonable query/post gets fantastic support whatever their ability. That's my experience of it anyways. As I've said before, I'm not a fast or "competitive" runner except with myself, but I am a dedicated one and I get amazing advice when I ask for it.

Ososlo

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84171339&postcount=1570

this guy will be a novice next year :P and he's going for sub 2:30:eek:

Big Logger

Ososlo wrote: »

I think that's a bit unfair tbh. Zooming got loads of support in her thread in the past and just as much encouragement/support as other "competitive" runner. Anyone who comes onto boards with a reasonable query/post gets fantastic support whatever their ability. That's my experience of it anyways. As I've said before, I'm not a fast or "competitive" runner except with myself, but I am a dedicated one and I get amazing advice when I ask for it.

My post was about zooming not you. Im supporting zooming in what they have to say...end of.

career_move

Big Logger wrote: »

My post was about zooming not you. Im supporting zooming in what they have to say...end of.

It seems to me you're just looking for an argument

As usual

Big Logger

career_move wrote: »

It seems to me you're just looking for an argument

As usual

Well I suppose if I dont agree with majority I must be

Dilbert75

The way I'm reading Zooming's post is that it can be difficult for novices to judge their pace and, through that or something else, it shouldn't be unexpected if the pace drops off in the final miles for some unforeseen reason. I agree that that's the case but if the preparation and tactics are ok then it should be possible to run an even pace throughout.

I guess the other thing is that we're all racing, just not against the same opposition. Some of us will race the clock; some will choose sub 3, sub 4, sub 5 or whatever. Some of us will race against the distance, i.e. to finish. It doesn't matter a jot. We're all racing something.

What I got from last year's novice thread, and what each of you will hopefully get here, is support and advice to help you win YOUR race, whatever it is.

Mr Slow

Whoa, I go out for a run and there's conflict? Where's the love???

1. I've the greatest of respect for Zooming and all that she has achieved, I was one of the first to congratulate her on her new log and still wish her all of the very best but like CM, I've run the marathon a few times, and like anything, the more you do something the more experience and knowledge you get, it's not elitist to speak from that experience.

2. There are lots of things I don't know and generally I find others here with more experience than me (ie Krusty,Ecoli, Menoscemo etc) are always on hand to offer advice because everybody started at zero.

3. This thread is historically famous for camaraderie, support each other, meet up for long runs, do this as a team and you'll get so much more out of it, we always meet up in a pub after the race and it's always great to see people from this thread hobbling through grinning from ear to ear and beaming with pride. I've made some very good friends from my turn as a novice on this thread.