DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

ahnowbrowncow

npresto wrote: »

Not sure what to do now.

I've more miles in the legs heading into DCM-13 training and I improved my 5k and 10k PBs this year so I think I'm in better shape and a lot wiser having run last year's DCM but I just want to finish it this year comfortably and not go through the hell I suffered in the last 4 miles last year.

My dilemma is deciding what pace to pick for my LSRs: slower or the same pace as last year?

I definitely wouldn't run the LSRs any slower. What training plan did you follow last year or what pace did you run your midweek runs at?

npresto

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't run the LSRs any slower. What training plan did you follow last year or what pace did you run your midweek runs at?

I followed the plan laid out in this thread last year so Hal Higdon Novice 1.

Just had a quick look at my Wed runs for Aug + Sep last year and they were all slightly faster than PMP.

My PMP was 5:40/km and I ran them approx 5:25/km

At the time I was using Runkeeper on a phone to track my speed and was only listening to the audio cues every 2 mins and 1/2km but I bought myself a Garmin watch at the start of the year and find it much better to monitor my pace now.

ahnowbrowncow

npresto wrote: »

I followed the plan laid out in this thread last year so Hal Higdon Novice 1.

Just had a quick look at my Wed runs for Aug + Sep last year and they were all slightly faster than PMP.

My PMP was 5:40/km and I ran them approx 5:25/km

At the time I was using Runkeeper on a phone to track my speed and was only listening to the audio cues every 2 mins and 1/2km but I bought myself a Garmin watch at the start of the year and find it much better to monitor my pace now.

Once again this is just my opinion but I think your midweek run pace may have been a bit too slow and that's what caused the last 4 miles to be a struggle.

Have you considered doing tempo runs, hill or interval training?

npresto

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Once again this is just my opinion but I think your midweek run pace may have been a bit too slow and that's what caused the last 4 miles to be a struggle.

Have you considered doing tempo runs, hill or interval training?

Hal Higdon Novice1 doesn't do PMP runs on Wednesdays but Hal Higdon Novice2 does. The Novice Thread was following HHN1 but I wanted to run some of the training at PMP so that's why I ran my Wednesday runs slightly faster than PMP. If I had followed HHN1 strictly then I wouldn't have run any midweek runs at PMP.

I live in Dublin but I run all my LSRs bar the last 3 or 4 around Clogherhead (family mobile home at weekends) and there are some testing hills in my runs.

I've never done any tempo runs or interval training - I wouldn't know where to start

ahnowbrowncow

npresto wrote: »

Hal Higdon Novice1 doesn't do PMP runs on Wednesdays but Hal Higdon Novice2 does. The Novice Thread was following HHN1 but I wanted to run some of the training at PMP so that's why I ran my Wednesday runs slightly faster than PMP. If I had followed HHN1 strictly then I wouldn't have run any midweek runs at PMP.

I live in Dublin but I run all my LSRs bar the last 3 or 4 around Clogherhead (family mobile home at weekends) and there are some testing hills in my runs.

I've never done any tempo runs or interval training - I wouldn't know where to start

You don't need to do any of this, the way you're running you will more than likely break sub 4 anyway.
I just find the HH novice training plans to be inefficient when it comes to running faster and doing the same kind of runs week in and week out can get a bit boring.
Hopefully a more experienced runner than myself can step in if I'm giving bad advice.

But if you want to try them they're quite easy to do. Intervals should be easy enough if you have a garmin watch that you can set up interval training on.
Eg. Run 800m at your 5k/10k pace and then walk/jog/run the next 400m/800m (or 1-3 minutes) as fast or as slow as you like. Do that 5 times or so.

A tempo run is when you run for 40 minutes and the first 15 minutes are easy and then you gradually build up to about your 10k pace for 15 minutes. Then slow down to finish the last 10 minutes at an easy pace.

Murph_D

npresto, it seems to me (based on what I pointed out above) that, yes, your LSRs last year were a little too fast but that same pace this year, based on your faster general race times, will be fine. In fact you would probably have gotten your sub-4 last year anyway if you hadn't estimated your PMP based on a race distance of 42.2 k, forgetting to factor in the extra few hundred metres we tend to run on the day. (I made the same mistake, although I still would have missed out, but not by as much!)

Struggling over the last few miles is pretty normal I think for anyone doing a first marathon, especially for us novices working off fairly limited mileage such as the HH Novice plans. But as we've seen in the past couple of weeks, the second marathon can also be a mighty struggle even coming off high-mileage plans like P&D. So many things to get right, apart from pace!

zooming

Im thinking some of you guys should be in the Advanced Marathon group not the novice lol lol

greenb

Setback for me!

14m LSR on Sunday...felt slight twinge outside of left knee on way up Howth Hill. Not too bad and thought I could run it out. Got gradually worse after turning to come back down. Eventually stopped, as feeling like I was about to do some serious damage. Limped through Monday and physical therapist visit Tuesday night. It's IT band. Therapist applied various torture techniques and then used me for a pin cushion.

No running (or cycling!) for me for at least 4 weeks. He said I'd already feel better today (I do!), but not to do the "stupid runner" thing and go back too early. He guarantees continued recurrence and problems unless I nip this in the bud early with further treatments, stretching and strenghtening before a gradual return to running. I'm going to take the advice, but seriously peed off now.

MazzR

I did 4.5 miles Monday and Tuesday. Won't get out today, well I will with the child for a walk but I can't run with the buggy!! My 4.5 miles took 45 mins both times, how does one get speed?! I'd love to pick up some...

Darren 83

MazzR wrote: »

I did 4.5 miles Monday and Tuesday. Won't get out today, well I will with the child for a walk but I can't run with the buggy!! My 4.5 miles took 45 mins both times, how does one get speed?! I'd love to pick up some...

Speed will come naturally don't force it or you will do a injury to you're self

Darren 83

Woden wrote: »

Picked up a new pair of trainers yesterday after a 10k run. Had the current pair since I started last August and both wanted a new pair and wanted to see if new analysis would help me pick up what might be a more suitable pair which might help with the multiple niggles on the left leg. Asics GT-2000 is what I went for in the end after trying on a pair of Brooks and Saucony. Took a half size smaller also. Looking forward to giving them a run out for a 5k this evening.

Currently sitting in work rolling the ball end of an IKEA shoehorn over the left side of my foot. As you do like!

How do you find the Gt 2000? Have the gt 2170, and saucony guide 6, I like the support of the asics and might get a pair the weekend

shortstuff!

MazzR wrote: »

I did 4.5 miles Monday and Tuesday. Won't get out today, well I will with the child for a walk but I can't run with the buggy!! My 4.5 miles took 45 mins both times, how does one get speed?! I'd love to pick up some...

Don't worry about speed, (I need someone in my slow crew!!) as the guys said our times will come down naturally as we increase our mileage, fingers crossed! Besides 10min miles aren't that slow at all, I never go faster than that in training, but somehow manage to when racing, all that adrenaline I suppose! Going to do the 5km in enfield on the 22nd, will see if the increase in mileage over the last couple months have helped then...

Woden

Darren 83 wrote: »

How do you find the Gt 2000? Have the gt 2170, and saucony guide 6, I like the support of the asics and might get a pair the weekend

I've just done one 5k on them on Tues and will do another tonight. I'll get back to you after the LSR on Sat!

shortstuff!

Confession to make... Chickened out of tonight's run, sat on the couch eating junk instead:pac: will just have to get up early tomorrow to do it , right it's out there now, will actually have to do it!

ronan1986

5km done last night in a howling wind and a bit of rain. Not a massive distance but good considering the conditions and the fact that the night before was leg night in the gym, so my legs were spent pre-run.

Anyway, 24min 25 sec for the run which incorporated a 300m long and very steep climb. Rest was flat.


Getting back into it (damn you Las Vegas!!)

shortstuff!

You just cant underestimate the power of posting on this thread, really helped to drag my ass out of bed this morning to do my run! Kinda glad I left it last night cos the weather wasnt too bad this morning, bit cold for May though, had to jog on the spot while my garmin picked up the location:rolleyes:

shortstuff!

Looking for a bit of advise regarding step back weeks, have been trying to build up my base and the consistency of my training before the DCM plan starts. Looking back on my training for the Bohermeen half, besides the LSR, my running was very haphazard... Heres my weekly mileage since start of April: 18.5, 21.5, 18, 23, 22, 22. LSR is at 10miles the past 3weeks. I want to step back next week at I plan to do the Bob Heffernan 5km on Tues 21st and want to be fresh, how many miles should I do?

Big Logger

shortstuff! wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advise regarding step back weeks, have been trying to build up my base and the consistency of my training before the DCM plan starts. Looking back on my training for the Bohermeen half, besides the LSR, my running was very haphazard... Heres my weekly mileage since start of April: 18.5, 21.5, 18, 23, 22, 22. LSR is at 10miles the past 3weeks. I want to step back next week at I plan to do the Bob Heffernan 5km on Tues 21st and want to be fresh, how many miles should I do?

It depends on how fit you are. I personally would leave out the LSR next week and do 4 miles instead on that day and do everything else the same. Give yourself Sun and Mon to rest. Then go all out on Tues and have a nice slow recovery on Wed or whenever your next run is.

career_move

Big Logger wrote: »

It depends on how fit you are. I personally would leave out the LSR next week and do 4 miles instead on that day and do everything else the same. Give yourself Sun and Mon to rest. Then go all out on Tues and have a nice slow recovery on Wed or whenever your next run is.

Sounds good to me. You could add in 4 or 5 100m sprints at race pace into the run on Sat as well if you feel like it

Woden

Woden wrote: »

I've just done one 5k on them on Tues and will do another tonight. I'll get back to you after the LSR on Sat!

Hi Darren,

Copying this in from my log on the GT-2000's

Cheers,

Woden


On the new runners themselves. I think they are ok. They might be a bit tight (not in length). Super conscious because of the above [niggles in left foot and ankle]. Think I can feel more support on the inside of the heel due to both newness and support. From the LSR today did not seem to cause the same blister issues. Did seem to be a little slippage back and forward on the left foot. So jury out. Hopefully work out ok. Annoying if they don't.

Darren 83

Woden wrote: »

Hi Darren,

Copying this in from my log on the GT-2000's

Cheers,

Woden


On the new runners themselves. I think they are ok. They might be a bit tight (not in length). Super conscious because of the above [niggles in left foot and ankle]. Think I can feel more support on the inside of the heel due to both newness and support. From the LSR today did not seem to cause the same blister issues. Did seem to be a little slippage back and forward on the left foot. So jury out. Hopefully work out ok. Annoying if they don't.

Cheers I bought a pair the weekend did 5k in them found them a lot more supportive. Will use them for long runs, have just under 200 miles done in the other pair. Just curious do people keep two pair of runners in rotation or stick to the one pair.

greenb

Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread, but is there one specific training plan being recommended for this group or is everyone picking and following their own? I remember there being some discussion on HH novice 1 perhaps not being ideal...

zooming

greenb wrote: »

Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread, but is there one specific training plan being recommended for this group or is everyone picking and following their own? I remember there being some discussion on HH novice 1 perhaps not being ideal...

It really depends on your level I guess, I'm following HH novice 1 and I'm hoping to finish and this is a beginners "get you round" plan. If you have done lots more running and are pretty speedy then this plan might not be for you. I know some will say you need more long runs than HHn1 calls for and that's true if you have a time goal in mind. If however your goal is to finish then its fine. To be honest I'm a novice and I couldn't have handled any more LSRs in this plan. Good luck to you whatever plan you pick

Mr Slow

Darren 83 wrote: »

Just curious do people keep two pair of runners in rotation or stick to the one pair.

I run mine into the ground before moving onto the next but there's a lot of sense in rotating pairs and keeping the fresher pair for your LSR's.

greenb wrote: »

Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread, but is there one specific training plan being recommended for this group or is everyone picking and following their own? I remember there being some discussion on HH novice 1 perhaps not being ideal...

As Zooming says it really depends on your level, give us an idea of your current weekly training and I'm sure there'll be plenty of people with advice for programs. Hal Higdon Novice one is a low mileage plan, just enough to get you around which is ideal for those with a low mileage base.

greenb

Mr Slow wrote: »

As Zooming says it really depends on your level, give us an idea of your current weekly training and I'm sure there'll be plenty of people with advice for programs. Hal Higdon Novice one is a low mileage plan, just enough to get you around which is ideal for those with a low mileage base.

Current level/training:

50 yrs old and running about 1 year. From December last up to about 4 weeks ago was doing an average of 25-30 miles per week, then was sick and only got out for 1 6 mile run in two weeks. Two weeks ago jumped back in where I left off before illness (mistake I think!). Was mid 14m lsr two sundays ago and broke down with pain on outside of knee. Currently being treated for ITBS:(, but hoping to get back running next week. Before this injury, I was considering doing the HH intermediate program....thought with my base of 25-30m per week for 5 or 6 months I would be able for this. Don't know what to do now after current setback

RunningKing

Darren 83 wrote: »

Just curious do people keep two pair of runners in rotation or stick to the one pair.

obviously not addicted enough yet if you only own 1 pair :P

The experts say that keeping 2 on the go will help extend their life span.
If you buy a new pair just before the older ones are coming to the end, that way you've always got 2 on the go - helps with 'breaking in ' etc.

Theres also an argument I've heard that it helps your mechanics if you have different runners as your foot doesn't get used to the same 'fitting' all the time.


I currently have 2 pairs, both with 150(ish) miles on them. - Both of these are different - in terms of heel drop and cushioning.
A new pair of racers
An old pair of Mizunos (550 miles) that I wear if I'm doing trail runs in the muck!

Mr Slow

greenb wrote: »

Current level/training:

50 yrs old and running about 1 year. From December last up to about 4 weeks ago was doing an average of 25-30 miles per week, then was sick and only got out for 1 6 mile run in two weeks. Two weeks ago jumped back in where I left off before illness (mistake I think!). Was mid 14m lsr two sundays ago and broke down with pain on outside of knee. Currently being treated for ITBS:(, but hoping to get back running next week. Before this injury, I was considering doing the HH intermediate program....thought with my base of 25-30m per week for 5 or 6 months I would be able for this. Don't know what to do now after current setback

I had ITBS on my first marathon, did your physio strip it out? The reason I ask is that the first physio I went to sent me home with a leaflet on stretches, the second (the one I still attend) told me to get a foam roller (Go one step further and get a Grid Roller) and she tortured me for an hour, no problems since.

What's your racing history?

ecoli

Mr Slow wrote: »

I had ITBS on my first marathon, did your physio strip it out? The reason I ask is that the first physio I went to sent me home with a leaflet on stretches, the second (the one I still attend) told me to get a foam roller (Go one step further and get a Grid Roller) and she tortured me for an hour, no problems since.

What's your racing history?

Did you roll the TFL or the ITB?

The ITB is a very thin sheet of muscle so rolling on it isnt going to help as it is effectively a tendon for the most part. If you are foam rolling make sure to go above the ITB up around the TFL and Glute Medius

greenb

Mr Slow wrote: »

I had ITBS on my first marathon, did your physio strip it out? The reason I ask is that the first physio I went to sent me home with a leaflet on stretches, the second (the one I still attend) told me to get a foam roller (Go one step further and get a Grid Roller) and she tortured me for an hour, no problems since.

What's your racing history?

Thanks Mr (not so) Slow (I've read your log!).....

I've already had two torture sessions going for third tonight:eek:!.........My Grid arrived in the post from amphibian King on Friday........so I'm attacking this injury as best I can. How long were you out with ITBS, and how was your return to running? My physio is advising a lot of rest and I believe this injury is very prone to reoccurence if not dealt with. It's very encouraging for me to hear that you've had no problems since so I would be really interested to hear how you handled it.

As for my racing history.........there isn't much of it. I've only done a couple of 5ks and one 5 mile race (Raheny this year). My 5k pb is 24:06 and I was truely shocked and stunned to beat 40mins (just!) for the 5 miles.

Darren 83

RunningKing wrote: »

obviously not addicted enough yet if you only own 1 pair :P

The experts say that keeping 2 on the go will help extend their life span.
If you buy a new pair just before the older ones are coming to the end, that way you've always got 2 on the go - helps with 'breaking in ' etc.

Theres also an argument I've heard that it helps your mechanics if you have different runners as your foot doesn't get used to the same 'fitting' all the time.


I currently have 2 pairs, both with 150(ish) miles on them. - Both of these are different - in terms of heel drop and cushioning.
A new pair of racers
An old pair of Mizunos (550 miles) that I wear if I'm doing trail runs in the muck!

i have three pairs what does that make me? :P
I have a old pair of asics not a 100% sure of miles done in them, would these be okay to run in grass?