Property tax letters

antoobrien

the watchman wrote: »

http://www.attackthetax.com/news.html

What a joke

the Household Charge and the Property Tax is Illegal, Unlawful and Unconstutional, and does NOT have to be paid, unless you consciously consent/agree to paying it.

There was nothing illegal or unconsitutional about the property tax that existed pre 1997, so what makes these charges/taxes illegal and unconsitutional?

aloyisious

Does anyone know if the property tax law allows for the tax fee to move up and down as property prices fluctuate? I'm looking at the way commercial property rents were based on upward movement only and didn't allow for the fall in property values or economy downturn, and wondering if the planners have put this scenario into the equation.

antoobrien

aloyisious wrote: »

Does anyone know if the property tax law allows for the tax fee to move up and down as property prices fluctuate? I'm looking at the way commercial property rents were based on upward movement only and didn't allow for the fall in property values or economy downturn, and wondering if the planners have put this scenario into the equation.

The valuation the tax is based on will be reviewed every three years.

Ogham

nesf wrote: »

Some truly special people are behind it, it's referring to this case on the website as a legal basis: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1220/359823-high-court-challenge-to-household-charge-begins/

Thing is, this case hasn't been ruled on yet so we really have no idea if they've any legal standing at all but that's not exactly how its phrased on the website.

That high court case was struck out a few weeks ago . http://www.moneyguideireland.com/hight-court-challenge-to-household-charge-failed.html

nesf

Ogham wrote: »

That high court case was struck out a few weeks ago . http://www.moneyguideireland.com/hight-court-challenge-to-household-charge-failed.html

Cheers, I was having trouble finding information about it.

aloyisious

@antoobrien: ta for that. So if you pay X amount in 2013, the revenue will expect the same for the following two years, before the property price review kick's in. Hmm.......

antoobrien

aloyisious wrote: »

@antoobrien: ta for that. So if you pay X amount in 2013, the revenue will expect the same for the following two years, before the property price review kick's in. Hmm.......

Yes, or in slightly more detail, you will value the property this year based on the market rate of properties on the area. This valuation is valid until 2016, when it will have to be done again.

Please be aware that the figure given by the revenue is a guide, not a valuation.

The revenue website states that the property price register and local property pages can be used to justify a valuation.

You might find the register of residential property sales, published by the Property Services Regulatory Authority (PSRA) based on Revenue Stamp Duty data (www.propertypriceregister.ie), of assistance for valuing your property.

You may choose to obtain a valuation from a competent professional valuer. Some valuers are offering a special price for LPT valuations. If you have purchased your property or obtained a professional valuation in recent years, you may use this valuation and adjust for any change in property values in your area since the date of this valuation.

You should also refer to other sources of information relating to local properties such as the property section of local newspapers, information from local estate agents and property websites.

A copy of the information sources used by the property owner to inform his or her self-assessment of the value of the property should be retained as proof of compliance with his or her LPT obligations.

There is some more information in the FAQs: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/valuation.html

maggy_thatcher

aloyisious wrote: »

@antoobrien: ta for that. So if you pay X amount in 2013, the revenue will expect the same for the following two years, before the property price review kick's in. Hmm.......

Not quite. They'll expect 2X for the following two years. You only have to pay half this year.

km79

Letter came. One band higher than theap suggested. 2 bands higher than the house next door to us sold for this year. And their house is bigger !

Pepsirebel

Ours came today, next higher band than they recommended on their website & addressed to me even though the house is both my wife's & my name!!!

Question: where are they getting their info ???

zenno

Geuze wrote: »

Property taxes are economically sensible.

They may not be populist in Ireland, but they do make economic and social sense.

The alternative is higher consumption and/or income taxes, which would harm the domestic economy more.


http://www.ifs.org.uk/mirrleesreview/design/ch16.pdf

How is this so ? it is illegal. If you own property you can make money on it, but this is your home of which you are not making money on, it's illegal whatever way you look at it. It doesn't matter if it's not popular, it's out-right illegal.

Ogham

Pepsirebel wrote: »

Ours came today, next higher band than they recommended on their website & addressed to me even though the house is both my wife's & my name!!!

Question: where are they getting their info ???

They are just trying to match a property with a person. It's proably easier for them to match to one person that they already have on record as a current or recent tax payer.

The estimate is just an average for all houses in the electoral area. It is not an individual valuation - you don't have to go with it.
See http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-letter-estimates-differ-from-valuation-guide.html

ardmacha

it is illegal. If you own property you can make money on it, but this is your home of which you are not making money on, it's illegal whatever way you look at it. It doesn't matter if it's not popular, it's out-right illegal.

Why don't you say it is illegal again, to be sure to be sure? Or even better explain why it is illegal, exactly.

zenno

ardmacha wrote: »

Why don't you say it is illegal again, to be sure to be sure? Or even better explain why it is illegal, exactly.

Illegal...there ye go. Google it. Also anyone that has a brain in their head know's this is illegal.




Illegal.

zenno

There you are spending the majority of your life paying for your house and stamp duty as well and at the end of this pain you have just managed to finish paying for it, and then the government want you to pay for your house again. If your brain thinks this is perfectly ok then there is something seriously wrong with your thinking.

Morrisseeee

Mmmmm interesting, alot of people I've talked to are getting the one-band-higher rate on their letters !!

An example is a 3 bed semi sold for €140k (only house sold in this particular area for 16 months!!) but the same 3 bed semi's are being valued by Revenue at a band higher in the recent letters !!

Also alot of people think they have to pay what the letter advises/demands, and then claim it back, but in fact all they have to do is put in the band they think they should be in, I'm not sure where this false info came from.

The whole thing stinks, ie. not just this property tax but all the recent measures to squeeze every penny out of ordinary people to pay back for something they had no part in.

It's a modern day reverse Robin Hood, take from the poor & give to the rich :mad:

Cookie_Monster

zenno wrote: »

There you are spending the majority of your life paying for your house and stamp duty as well and at the end of this pain you have just managed to finish paying for it, and then the government want you to pay for your house again. If your brain thinks this is perfectly ok then there is something seriously wrong with your thinking.

not everyone spends the majority of their life paying for a house, in fact I'd argue most wouldn't. I have no intention of spending more than 13-15 years paying for it for example. Stamp duty is a transaction tax and has no bearing on the current discussion.
You've yet to explain why it's illegal.

I think it's slightly immoral when we have to pay water and bins separately instead of being all included and calling it rates but other than that I've no issue with it and see it as both sensible and fully legal.

zenno

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not everyone spends the majority of their life paying for a house, in fact I'd argue most wouldn't. I have no intention of spending more than 13-15 years paying for it for example. Stamp duty is a transaction tax and has no bearing on the current discussion.
You've yet to explain why it's illegal.

I think it's slightly immoral when we have to pay water and bins separately instead of being all included and calling it rates but other than that I've no issue with it and see it as both sensible and fully legal.

That is utter garbage. Why the hell should a person have to pay tax on their home when they already payed to buy their home. Some people here are either working in revenue or government circles and i don't give a jack what other EU country pays property tax as it is not only morally wrong it is illegal in my mind.

I'm sick of this f*cking sh1t.

Not everyone has it as handy as you.

What next ?... this...

THE air we breathe is set to be taxed as part of a revolutionary ­Government plan to raise more money.

Rural folk will have to cough up the most under the new charge – already dubbed a gasp bill – while those living in our polluted cities will be expected to pay less.

The Air Tariff Control system will assess charges in different areas of the country and every household will be liable for payments, which will be administered by local authorities and added to council tax bills.

The project, to be run by a private firm under a five-year licence, is designed to fund air quality improvement initiatives.

One senior air technician at the Environment Agency said: “Air is natural but, just like water, it is a finite resource that we have to manage sensibly. Water quality and supply improved with privatisation and there is no reason why this should not have the same impact on air. The aim is to allow everyone to enjoy high-quality breathing air.”

The scheme, which the Government believes will help reduce levels of asthma and bronchitis, will see each region of the country allocated an Air Band to determine how much each household will pay.

The Lake District is likely, according to
the documents, to be in the highest bracket while residents of cities such as London, Manchester and Birmingham are earmarked for rebates because of traffic fumes.

Special plants will later be built to capture clean air and regulate its flow around the country, monitored by tracking devices being developed at Ayr University.

But critics believe the Coalition plan will see the end of free air for all in the UK, with private companies cashing in.

One Labour backbencher said last night: “This has literally taken my breath away.”

It is only a matter of time.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow

Just to explain how crazy this all is...pretend the apple is the revenue--whipped by the government, at us flat landers... It comes in from above and is not even acknowledged or even seen by most Irish citizens.

Remove yourself from the square and enter reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

amen

Why the hell should a person have to pay tax on their home when they already payed to buy their hom

Do you own a car and if so do you pay motor/road tax?

If so this is the same situation.

Property Tax in Ireland is not new. It was abolished after the general election in 77. FF were well behind in the polls and promised to abolish rates if they won.

They duly won and abolished rates. Of course that lead to a whole other raft of issues in the mid 80's.

If you think property tax is illegal I assume you think all taxes are illegal as they all derive from the the same source i.e. our Government consisting of freely elected TDs.

Lockstep

zenno wrote: »

Some people here are either working in revenue or government circles

None of this please. Don't assume that those who disagree with you are biased.

ShooterSF

I have no issue with a property tax, I actually agree with the idea in principal, but got a letter today for a property I don't own and they expect me to do their job for them and find out who owns it and provide their PPSN. I will be writing back to negotiate my compensation if they intend to employ me to do their job!

Gloomtastic!

amen wrote: »

Do you own a car and if so do you pay motor/road tax?

If so this is the same situation.

Property Tax in Ireland is not new. It was abolished after the general election in 77. FF were well behind in the polls and promised to abolish rates if they won.

They duly won and abolished rates. Of course that lead to a whole other raft of issues in the mid 80's.

If you think property tax is illegal I assume you think all taxes are illegal as they all derive from the the same source i.e. our Government consisting of freely elected TDs.

You are correct in what you are saying but we bought our house and paid a vast amount in stamp duty - 9% of the house price - on the understanding that this was our VRT/Motor Tax all rolled into one.

Now they've run out of money so they are coming back to us looking for more money. But I'm still paying for the stamp duty - 9% of my mortgage goes to pay it off and will be for the next 20 years or so.

So they want me to pay more because they want to balance the books. They're spending more than they're earning so they are trying to bring the totals closer together to keep our Troika paymasters happy.

Are they seriously trying to bring down spending? The CPA means not a penny has been cut from the PS wage/pension bill since all this **** started 5 years ago. CPA 2 will try and reduce it by a measly €300 million per year - the same amount that increments have cost us per year since this **** started. Well done!

They try and reduce some of the €1.2billion allowances the PS receive each year but end up with just a couple of million. Well done!

You have former taosigh (sp!) retiring on pensions that are double the equivalent of our european counterparts but we can't touch them because it's their property. Well done!

We still have the highest paid doctors, teachers, politicians, unemployed, pensioners blah blah blah. Well done!

To me it just seems all taxing and no saving, that just isn't fair. Why is everyone just rolling over on this? How much of your property tax will go towards paying Dublin TDs €15,000 every year just to travel to work?

Stop the spending and then start looking for your extra taxes. That's the message I'll be giving to my local TDs face to face whenever I get my letter from these bloody parasites.

Wake up Ireland, they're taking you for a ride! :mad:

dissed doc

howlingcat wrote: »

Hi all
I got my valuation in the post today and I think it's time the Irish stood up for themselves.
Look what Cyprus did in 2 days am we have done nothing in 5 years .
I'm not paying and that's that.
It's unfair and unjustified tax
I believe we should all have the property tax letters within the week and what should be the next step I wonder as a simple boycott is not sufficient

It makes a lot of sense to have a property tax because it doesn't have so many exemptions like income tax which is amazingly low in Ireland for people on 20-35k compared to Germany for example, and punishingly high for people on salaries over that (again compared to Germany for example).

It's quite equitable, which is clearly why some groups are angry.

CptMackey

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

You are correct in what you are saying but we bought our house and paid a vast amount in stamp duty - 9% of the house price - on the understanding that this was our VRT/Motor Tax all rolled into one.

Now they've run out of money so they are coming back to us looking for more money. But I'm still paying for the stamp duty - 9% of my mortgage goes to pay it off and will be for the next 20 years or so.

So they want me to pay more because they want to balance the books. They're spending more than they're earning so they are trying to bring the totals closer together to keep our Troika paymasters happy.

Are they seriously trying to bring down spending? The CPA means not a penny has been cut from the PS wage/pension bill since all this **** started 5 years ago. CPA 2 will try and reduce it by a measly €300 million per year - the same amount that increments have cost us per year since this **** started. Well done!

They try and reduce some of the €1.2billion allowances the PS receive each year but end up with just a couple of million. Well done!

You have former taosigh (sp!) retiring on pensions that are double the equivalent of our european counterparts but we can't touch them because it's their property. Well done!

We still have the highest paid doctors, teachers, politicians, unemployed, pensioners blah blah blah. Well done!

To me it just seems all taxing and no saving, that just isn't fair. Why is everyone just rolling over on this? How much of your property tax will go towards paying Dublin TDs €15,000 every year just to travel to work?

Stop the spending and then start looking for your extra taxes. That's the message I'll be giving to my local TDs face to face whenever I get my letter from these bloody parasites.

Wake up Ireland, they're taking you for a ride! :mad:

They should cut the waste and then tax. By only taxing they continue to promote more waste. Look at the money that is paid to politicans. If they believe that they are doing it for the public good then they should only recieve the average industrial wage.

Drives me mad how people in this country just roll over and welcome new taxes without demanding reform. If people had the nerve not to pay the household charge it would have been defeated but as per always there are government cheerleaders who will do what ever they are told. A trait which has lead to many problems in history.

Cookie_Monster

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

You are correct in what you are saying but we bought our house and paid a vast amount in stamp duty - 9% of the house price - on the understanding that this was our VRT/Motor Tax all rolled into one.

well that's a flawed understanding. Stamp duty is on the transaction, not the asset. Just like VRT is on the registration and motor tax is on the car.

zenno wrote: »

That is utter garbage. Why the hell should a person have to pay tax on their home when they already payed to buy their home.

Why should they pay tax on their car when they've bought a car, or pay a TV subscription when they've bought a TV or pay a dog licence when they've bought the dog... it's no different IMO and a far more stable tax base than income, so in the long term income taxes should ease back as property tax creates a stable tax income.

i don't give a jack what other EU country pays property tax as it is not only morally wrong it is illegal in my mind.

So it's only illegal in your mind, not in reality. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

(Done Properly as rates) it's a completely fair tax contributing to local amenities and services and pay for usage of resources like water and waste disposal. Done as it is in Ireland is clearly more about revenue generation than fair paying for service, but still there's hope it can be amended into Rates at some point in the future.

Gloomtastic!

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well that's a flawed understanding. Stamp duty is on the transaction, not the asset. Just like VRT is on the registration and motor tax is on the car.


Why should they pay tax on their car when they've bought a car, or pay a TV subscription when they've bought a TV or pay a dog licence when they've bought the dog... it's no different IMO and a far more stable tax base than income, so in the long term income taxes should ease back as property tax creates a stable tax income.

So it's only illegal in your mind, not in reality. I'm glad we've cleared that up.

(Done Properly as rates) it's a completely fair tax contributing to local amenities and services and pay for usage of resources like water and waste disposal. Done as it is in Ireland is clearly more about revenue generation than fair paying for service, but still there's hope it can be amended into Rates at some point in the future.

But it's not completely fair that, as a single example of hundreds I could list, 80% of the education budget is comprised of pay and pensions yet the government cannot touch a penny of it because Jack O'Connor and his bearded buddies won't let them.
I didn't vote for Jack O'Connor in any general election yet he seems to dictate government policy - why? Where's the fairness in that?

I'm all for paying my share but not to featherbed the nests of a complete section of Irish society who believe they are better than me. This is meant to be a republic, but has turned into a banana republic with us poor monkeys taking all the pain!

OU812

A couple of points which were not able to be answered by revenue when I called them this morning.

I'm self employed, my wife is PAYE. The property tax form is in my name & PPS number. What is in the future (however unlikely it would be), there was some sort of tax credit available against it which I wouldn't qualify for & she would? - no answer able to be given

What if something were to happen to me & the documentation is in my name, under data protection laws, the revenue is prohibited from disclosing any information to her, what happens in this instance? - no answer able to be given.

What if she were to have me removed from the home, is the tax liability still with me? - The person indicated as the owner of the property is liable.

We jointly own the house, why is only one person't PPS number attache to the property if we both benefitted from tax relief & also both contributed to the cost & stamp duty? - no answer able to be given.

There's a lot of uncertainties about this whole thing. (apart from the fact that the only two absolutes in life are death & taxes).

Godge

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

You are correct in what you are saying but we bought our house and paid a vast amount in stamp duty - 9% of the house price - on the understanding that this was our VRT/Motor Tax all rolled into one.

Now they've run out of money so they are coming back to us looking for more money. But I'm still paying for the stamp duty - 9% of my mortgage goes to pay it off and will be for the next 20 years or so.

So you took out a 109% mortgage and you wonder why you can't afford it?

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

So they want me to pay more because they want to balance the books. They're spending more than they're earning so they are trying to bring the totals closer together to keep our Troika paymasters happy.

Are they seriously trying to bring down spending? The CPA means not a penny has been cut from the PS wage/pension bill since all this **** started 5 years ago. CPA 2 will try and reduce it by a measly €300 million per year - the same amount that increments have cost us per year since this **** started. Well done!

They try and reduce some of the €1.2billion allowances the PS receive each year but end up with just a couple of million. Well done!

When all else fails, spout a few lies and untruths and have a go at the public service. There have been pay cuts and more are on the way.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

We still have the highest paid doctors, teachers, politicians, unemployed, pensioners blah blah blah. Well done!

To me it just seems all taxing and no saving, that just isn't fair. Why is everyone just rolling over on this? How much of your property tax will go towards paying Dublin TDs €15,000 every year just to travel to work?

Stop the spending and then start looking for your extra taxes. That's the message I'll be giving to my local TDs face to face whenever I get my letter from these bloody parasites.

Wake up Ireland, they're taking you for a ride! :mad:

Public service pay has been cut by several billion, well documented on these boards.

The problem is social welfare is rising.

Gloomtastic!

Godge wrote: »

So you took out a 109% mortgage and you wonder why you can't afford it?

Huh?

When all else fails, spout a few lies and untruths and have a go at the public service. There have been pay cuts and more are on the way.

Public service pay has been cut by several billion, well documented on these boards.

The problem is social welfare is rising.

Which parts are lies?

We are a bankrupt state. We cannot afford to pay the most for doctors, teachers.... how many times do I have to list these?

Btw, read today we have the most generous fuel allowance in Europe.

It has to stop, it really does. We cannot afford it and we never, ever will. When will we wake up to this fact?

Godge

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Huh?


Which parts are lies?

Now, remember, you did ask the question, so let us go back to your original post.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

You are correct in what you are saying but we bought our house and paid a vast amount in stamp duty - 9% of the house price - on the understanding that this was our VRT/Motor Tax all rolled into one.

Where in any part of the stamp duty legislation does it say that this was your VRT/Motor Tax all rolled into one. Either you genuinely believe(d) this which makes you a fool or you are making it up which makes it a lie. You take your pick.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Now they've run out of money so they are coming back to us looking for more money. But I'm still paying for the stamp duty - 9% of my mortgage goes to pay it off and will be for the next 20 years or so.

If 9% of your mortgage goes to pay the stamp duty, you must have had no deposit which would have been put towards the stamp duty (first call on your money is always the revenue) which means you must have had a 109% mortgage, or maybe it is a lie that you are paying the stamp duty for 20 years.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

So they want me to pay more because they want to balance the books. They're spending more than they're earning so they are trying to bring the totals closer together to keep our Troika paymasters happy.

Yes, this is true, they need to balance the books and the Troika have said a balance must be struck between taxation and spending cuts. They have also said that a property tax must be part of the solution, on that I think we agree.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Are they seriously trying to bring down spending? The CPA means not a penny has been cut from the PS wage/pension bill since all this **** started 5 years ago. CPA 2 will try and reduce it by a measly €300 million per year - the same amount that increments have cost us per year since this **** started. Well done!

This is a heap of horse manure, to put it politely. You will not be able to produce one piece of evidence to back this up. A complete load of lies.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

They try and reduce some of the €1.2billion allowances the PS receive each year but end up with just a couple of million. Well done!

Again, lies, probably getting your information from some rag like the Daily Mail or the Sindo.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

You have former taosigh (sp!) retiring on pensions that are double the equivalent of our european counterparts but we can't touch them because it's their property. Well done!

I will give you this one to a point except that we have cut their pensions a little. So another half-lie.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

We still have the highest paid doctors, teachers, politicians, unemployed, pensioners blah blah blah. Well done!

Yes, this is rubbish spouted now and again, but nobody has been able to produce up-to-date 2012 figures to verify this. More lies and half-truths.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

To me it just seems all taxing and no saving, that just isn't fair. Why is everyone just rolling over on this? How much of your property tax will go towards paying Dublin TDs €15,000 every year just to travel to work?

No, more lies, there has been spending cuts, about the same as taxation increases, have a read of some budget speeches before you spout this rubbish.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Stop the spending and then start looking for your extra taxes. That's the message I'll be giving to my local TDs face to face whenever I get my letter from these bloody parasites.

Wake up Ireland, they're taking you for a ride! :mad:

If you had come on here and said that the balance should be increased towards spending rather than taxation, it could have been a rational discussion but an uninformed rant about public sector wages and social welfare in a thread about the property tax (a necessary tax in my opinion albeit somewhat flawed in implementation) doesn't really add anything.