Property tax letters

howlingcat · 21-03-2013 2:33pm #1

Hi all
I got my valuation in the post today and I think it's time the Irish stood up for themselves.
Look what Cyprus did in 2 days am we have done nothing in 5 years .
I'm not paying and that's that.
It's unfair and unjustified tax
I believe we should all have the property tax letters within the week and what should be the next step I wonder as a simple boycott is not sufficient

Geuze · 21-03-2013 3:04pm

Property taxes are economically sensible.

They may not be populist in Ireland, but they do make economic and social sense.

The alternative is higher consumption and/or income taxes, which would harm the domestic economy more.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/mirrleesreview/design/ch16.pdf

21-03-2013 3:14pm

howlingcat wrote: »

Look what Cyprus did in 2 days am we have done nothing in 5 years

What exactly have Cyprus done? All I see is they have annoyed the ECB to the point where it is pulling the plug on their zombie banks.

NIMAN · 21-03-2013 3:16pm

@ OP

This ain't like the household Charge, they will get the money off you, one way or another.

Gloomtastic! · 21-03-2013 3:24pm

Geuze wrote: »

Property taxes are economically sensible.

They may not be populist in Ireland, but they do make economic and social sense.

The alternative is higher consumption and/or income taxes, which would harm the domestic economy more.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/mirrleesreview/design/ch16.pdf

An alternative I would prefer to see is to reduce public spending to a level that this country can afford. We rank among the highest paid teachers, politicians, doctors, unemployed, pensioners - the list is pretty long - in Europe, we also have the highest deficit in Europe. Can nobody see the co-relation?

Scortho · 21-03-2013 3:31pm

NIMAN wrote: »

@ OP

This ain't like the household Charge, they will get the money off you, one way or another.

Not only that, now that its in revenues hands they're getting last years household charge as well!
Why it wasn't given to revenue in the first place is beyond me. All one has to look at is how unsuccessful the councils are at collecting car tax, so much so that they need the Gardai to enforce it.
You don't see revenue requiring them to enforce paye, prsi or vat!

Geuze · 21-03-2013 3:32pm

Yes, public spending has to fall as well, to close the deficit.

All PS workers have taken two pay cuts.

CPA II means further cuts to the paybill.

I suggest the following:

Further cuts to PS pensions
Massive cuts to drug costs
Abolish JSA
Abolish OPFP
Cut rents paid by the public service

Bannasidhe · 21-03-2013 3:37pm

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, public spending has to fall as well, to close the deficit.

All PS workers have taken two pay cuts.

CPA II means further cuts to the paybill.

I suggest the following:

Further cuts to PS pensions
Massive cuts to drug costs
Abolish JSA
Abolish OPFP
Cut rents paid by the public service

Why not just advocate slave labour for the unemployed and the immediate placement of all children of lone parents in Industrial schools ?

howlingcat · 21-03-2013 4:04pm

I've heard it all now . It makes economic sence to have a property tax. There may be some truth to this but not during a recession . If it was to be introduced it should have been completed during the boom times.
As for the revenue will get it by hook or by crook well lets not make it too easy.
Join the local protests and the march against the property tax on April 13 th

Manach · 21-03-2013 4:24pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why not just advocate slave labour for the unemployed and the immediate placement of all children of lone parents in Industrial schools ?

The books have to be balanced one way or another and the historical pendulum from laissez-faire and now swung completely to an all intrusive nanny state where the Government and its agencies are in the ascendant at a cost we are all paying for.

Geuze · 21-03-2013 4:49pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why not just advocate slave labour for the unemployed and the immediate placement of all children of lone parents in Industrial schools ?

I should have elaborated.

Increase the duration of JSB to two years.
Increase the amount of JSB, during initial unemploment.

Abolish the open-ended JSA.
Replace with actual paid jobs for the LT employed.

Don't pay them not to work, pay them to work.

By jobs here I mean 3-day week jobs in general public / social works.

Bannasidhe · 21-03-2013 4:52pm

Manach wrote: »

The books have to be balanced one way or another and the historical pendulum from laissez-faire and now swung completely to an all intrusive nanny state where the Government and its agencies are in the ascendant at a cost we are all paying for.

I don't know why you are addressing that to me as I made no comment on political theory, but personally, I am of the opinion that we are a society first and an economy second.

To take the suggestion that JSA be abolished - this disregards that despite the amount of PRSI contributions (possibly decades worth) a person has paid, should they lose their job during this recession they will be entitled to JSB only for the grand total of 9 months max then nothing as under the current system after that 9 month period one is transferred to JSA.
So for the sake of 'balancing the books' we should throw people who have contributed through taxation and PRSI to the financial wolves after 9 months...:eek:

Forcing the unemployed into slave labour would also help 'balance the books'.

Are you advocating a return to Laissez-faire?

hallo dare · 21-03-2013 4:55pm

Bullying pr1cks,taking our money! i'd love to see all the government and revenue people show their property tax receipts. robbers

Bannasidhe · 21-03-2013 4:59pm

Geuze wrote: »

I should have elaborated.

Increase the duration of JSB to two years.
Increase the amount of JSB, during initial unemploment.

Abolish the open-ended JSA.
Replace with actual paid jobs for the LT employed.

Don't pay them not to work, pay them to work.

By jobs here I mean 3-day week jobs in general public / social works.

Thank you for clarifying. I would have no issue with what you have said but have two points which also need to be considered:

LT unemployed:

1. Lack of jobs. There really is no escaping that fact.
What about those currently employed to do these general public/social works? What happens to their jobs?

LP's:

2. Lack of affordable child care is a serious barrier to LP's finding employment particularly those who would be at the 'unskilled' minimum wage end of the spectrum. That issue needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

Geuze · 21-03-2013 5:09pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

LT unemployed:

What about those currently employed to do these general public/social works? What happens to their jobs?

Nothing.

There is plenty of work to be done.

I suggest 100,000 places, 3 days per week, paid.

One small example of possible social / public works: building hundreds of kms of greenways on old railway routes.

Geuze · 21-03-2013 5:10pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

LP's:

2. Lack of affordable child care is a serious barrier to LP's finding employment particularly those who would be at the 'unskilled' minimum wage end of the spectrum. That issue needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

I fully agree.

NIMAN · 22-03-2013 1:12pm

Scortho wrote: »

Not only that, now that its in revenues hands they're getting last years household charge as well!
Why it wasn't given to revenue in the first place is beyond me. All one has to look at is how unsuccessful the councils are at collecting car tax, so much so that they need the Gardai to enforce it.
You don't see revenue requiring them to enforce paye, prsi or vat!

True.

Cut and paste from their own documentation:

"If you don’t submit a Return, or contact Revenue to say why you are not liable (see Question 6) Revenue will
pursue you for this estimated amount of tax using a range of collection options including:
● Mandatory deduction from 1 July 2013 from your employment income, occupational pension or
certain Government payments.
● Attachment of your bank account.
● Referral of the debt to a Sheriff or a Solicitor for collection.
● The withholding of any refund of other tax as payment against LPT due.
Because you have a Revenue debt, you will also not qualify for a Tax Clearance Certificate. Self-employed
persons or companies will also be liable to a late filing surcharge on Income Tax or Corporation Tax Returns.
Interest charges at 8% per annum apply to late payment of LPT and penalties may also arise. Any unpaid LPT
attaches to the property and you will not be able to sell it without paying any LPT, interest and penalties due."

Plus: regarding unpaid Household Charge

Q: I didn’t pay the Household Charge, what should I do?
You should register with your local authority or with the Local Government Management Agency and pay the
Household Charge. Any unpaid Household Charge at 1 July 2013 will be converted into an LPT charge of
€200 and collected by Revenue in due course and may be subject to interest.

Gloomtastic! · 22-03-2013 2:32pm

NIMAN wrote: »

True.

Cut and paste from their own documentation:

"If you don’t submit a Return, or contact Revenue to say why you are not liable (see Question 6) Revenue will
pursue you for this estimated amount of tax using a range of collection options including:
● Mandatory deduction from 1 July 2013 from your employment income, occupational pension or
certain Government payments.
● Attachment of your bank account.
● Referral of the debt to a Sheriff or a Solicitor for collection.
● The withholding of any refund of other tax as payment against LPT due.
Because you have a Revenue debt, you will also not qualify for a Tax Clearance Certificate. Self-employed
persons or companies will also be liable to a late filing surcharge on Income Tax or Corporation Tax Returns.
Interest charges at 8% per annum apply to late payment of LPT and penalties may also arise. Any unpaid LPT
attaches to the property and you will not be able to sell it without paying any LPT, interest and penalties due."

Plus: regarding unpaid Household Charge

Q: I didn’t pay the Household Charge, what should I do?
You should register with your local authority or with the Local Government Management Agency and pay the
Household Charge. Any unpaid Household Charge at 1 July 2013 will be converted into an LPT charge of
€200 and collected by Revenue in due course and may be subject to interest.

Chilling similarities to what they are trying to do in Cyprus - you give it or we take it.

the watchman · 23-03-2013 7:43am

If you think the Property Tax is unfair or simply just don't like it, this could be a plan!.....

http://www.attackthetax.com/news.html

NIMAN · 23-03-2013 9:23am

the watchman wrote: »

If you think the Property Tax is unfair or simply just don't like it, this could be a plan!.....

http://www.attackthetax.com/news.html

:rolleyes:

tails_naf · 23-03-2013 10:03am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

LP's:

2. Lack of affordable child care is a serious barrier to LP's finding employment particularly those who would be at the 'unskilled' minimum wage end of the spectrum. That issue needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

I often thought - why not state run child-care, and use the pool of existing lone-parents as good candidates for who might work in that area - benefits could be:

- You could train/employ single-mothers/parents (who are currently staying at home, minding kids and getting benefits)
- Wage would be higher than benefits alone, but the cost to the state is a saving as it would provide very cheap childcare for everyone

So for a small delta increase in what one person is currently getting from the state could enable others to have child-care so they can work -> nett saving

Without this, the barrier to entry for single parents in the work-force is too high in many cases, so they are 'trapped' on benefits.

hfallada · 23-03-2013 10:10am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Chilling similarities to what they are trying to do in Cyprus - you give it or we take it.

They are protecting the ordinary person in cyprus. The the EU only wants to tax the dirty Russian money that caused they're problems in the first place. Russian kept billions in Cyprus to keep it from Moscow. Making Cyprus a country that makes up 0,2% of the Eurozone economy the second largest investor in Russia.

The EU is lending Cyprus as they can't borrow themselves on the market. I don't know how you are getting a connection to a property tax which was planned on being introduced years ago and cyprus which was happened in the last fortnight?

Gloomtastic! · 23-03-2013 11:50am

hfallada wrote: »

They are protecting the ordinary person in cyprus. The the EU only wants to tax the dirty Russian money that caused they're problems in the first place. Russian kept billions in Cyprus to keep it from Moscow. Making Cyprus a country that makes up 0,2% of the Eurozone economy the second largest investor in Russia.

The EU is lending Cyprus as they can't borrow themselves on the market. I don't know how you are getting a connection to a property tax which was planned on being introduced years ago and cyprus which was happened in the last fortnight?

Bullying beaurocrats imposing their will on the people. They are the problem, not the solution!

stevedublin · 23-03-2013 12:08pm

hfallada wrote: »

The the EU only wants to tax the dirty Russian money that caused they're problems in the first place. Russian kept billions in Cyprus to keep it from Moscow. Making Cyprus a country that makes up 0,2% of the Eurozone economy the second largest investor in Russia.

How do people putting money into Cyprus's banks cause problems?
Surely it would help Cyprus's economy by increasing the pool of cash in the country?

jack presley · 24-03-2013 6:27pm

I got my letter in the post on Friday and the estimate of the value of my place was 2 bands higher than the one on their map. I know they're both only guides but as they came from the same source, surely they should have the same value?

jack presley · 24-03-2013 6:30pm

the watchman wrote: »

If you think the Property Tax is unfair or simply just don't like it, this could be a plan!.....

http://www.attackthetax.com/news.html

Who's behind this? I presume it's the Socialist party or someone like that.

Geuze · 24-03-2013 11:10pm

jack presley wrote: »

I got my letter in the post on Friday and the estimate of the value of my place was 2 bands higher than the one on their map. I know they're both only guides but as they came from the same source, surely they should have the same value?

No, as the Revenue don't know what type of house you have.

monkeypants · 25-03-2013 8:11am

NIMAN wrote: »

Any unpaid Household Charge at 1 July 2013 will be converted into an LPT charge of €200 and collected by Revenue in due course and may be subject to interest.

Was late payment of the household charge not supposed to be more expensive than that?

hawkelady · 25-03-2013 8:30am

monkeypants wrote: »

Was late payment of the household charge not supposed to be more expensive than that?

No , one of the reasons the hhc was flawed was because the late payment fees were laughable. If the fine was an extra €100 for each week/ month that went by you would have seen a larger compliance rate

nesf · 25-03-2013 8:34am

jack presley wrote: »

Who's behind this? I presume it's the Socialist party or someone like that.

Some truly special people are behind it, it's referring to this case on the website as a legal basis: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1220/359823-high-court-challenge-to-household-charge-begins/

Thing is, this case hasn't been ruled on yet so we really have no idea if they've any legal standing at all but that's not exactly how its phrased on the website.

monkeypants · 25-03-2013 9:15am

I'm sorry, but their faces are comical, especially the woman. :pac:

antoobrien · 25-03-2013 9:19am

the watchman wrote: »

http://www.attackthetax.com/news.html

What a joke

the Household Charge and the Property Tax is Illegal, Unlawful and Unconstutional, and does NOT have to be paid, unless you consciously consent/agree to paying it.

There was nothing illegal or unconsitutional about the property tax that existed pre 1997, so what makes these charges/taxes illegal and unconsitutional?

aloyisious · 25-03-2013 9:30am

Does anyone know if the property tax law allows for the tax fee to move up and down as property prices fluctuate? I'm looking at the way commercial property rents were based on upward movement only and didn't allow for the fall in property values or economy downturn, and wondering if the planners have put this scenario into the equation.

antoobrien · 25-03-2013 9:38am

aloyisious wrote: »

Does anyone know if the property tax law allows for the tax fee to move up and down as property prices fluctuate? I'm looking at the way commercial property rents were based on upward movement only and didn't allow for the fall in property values or economy downturn, and wondering if the planners have put this scenario into the equation.

The valuation the tax is based on will be reviewed every three years.

Ogham · 25-03-2013 9:57am

nesf wrote: »

Some truly special people are behind it, it's referring to this case on the website as a legal basis: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1220/359823-high-court-challenge-to-household-charge-begins/

Thing is, this case hasn't been ruled on yet so we really have no idea if they've any legal standing at all but that's not exactly how its phrased on the website.

That high court case was struck out a few weeks ago . http://www.moneyguideireland.com/hight-court-challenge-to-household-charge-failed.html

nesf · 25-03-2013 9:59am

Ogham wrote: »

That high court case was struck out a few weeks ago . http://www.moneyguideireland.com/hight-court-challenge-to-household-charge-failed.html

Cheers, I was having trouble finding information about it.

aloyisious · 25-03-2013 10:01am

@antoobrien: ta for that. So if you pay X amount in 2013, the revenue will expect the same for the following two years, before the property price review kick's in. Hmm.......

antoobrien · 25-03-2013 10:08am

aloyisious wrote: »

@antoobrien: ta for that. So if you pay X amount in 2013, the revenue will expect the same for the following two years, before the property price review kick's in. Hmm.......

Yes, or in slightly more detail, you will value the property this year based on the market rate of properties on the area. This valuation is valid until 2016, when it will have to be done again.

Please be aware that the figure given by the revenue is a guide, not a valuation.

The revenue website states that the property price register and local property pages can be used to justify a valuation.

You might find the register of residential property sales, published by the Property Services Regulatory Authority (PSRA) based on Revenue Stamp Duty data (www.propertypriceregister.ie), of assistance for valuing your property.

You may choose to obtain a valuation from a competent professional valuer. Some valuers are offering a special price for LPT valuations. If you have purchased your property or obtained a professional valuation in recent years, you may use this valuation and adjust for any change in property values in your area since the date of this valuation.

You should also refer to other sources of information relating to local properties such as the property section of local newspapers, information from local estate agents and property websites.

A copy of the information sources used by the property owner to inform his or her self-assessment of the value of the property should be retained as proof of compliance with his or her LPT obligations.

There is some more information in the FAQs: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/valuation.html

maggy_thatcher · 25-03-2013 10:10am

aloyisious wrote: »

@antoobrien: ta for that. So if you pay X amount in 2013, the revenue will expect the same for the following two years, before the property price review kick's in. Hmm.......

Not quite. They'll expect 2X for the following two years. You only have to pay half this year.

km79 · 25-03-2013 7:05pm

Letter came. One band higher than theap suggested. 2 bands higher than the house next door to us sold for this year. And their house is bigger !

Pepsirebel · 25-03-2013 7:49pm

Ours came today, next higher band than they recommended on their website & addressed to me even though the house is both my wife's & my name!!!

Question: where are they getting their info ???

zenno · 25-03-2013 7:57pm

Geuze wrote: »

Property taxes are economically sensible.

They may not be populist in Ireland, but they do make economic and social sense.

The alternative is higher consumption and/or income taxes, which would harm the domestic economy more.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/mirrleesreview/design/ch16.pdf

How is this so ? it is illegal. If you own property you can make money on it, but this is your home of which you are not making money on, it's illegal whatever way you look at it. It doesn't matter if it's not popular, it's out-right illegal.

Ogham · 25-03-2013 8:04pm

Pepsirebel wrote: »

Ours came today, next higher band than they recommended on their website & addressed to me even though the house is both my wife's & my name!!!

Question: where are they getting their info ???

They are just trying to match a property with a person. It's proably easier for them to match to one person that they already have on record as a current or recent tax payer.

The estimate is just an average for all houses in the electoral area. It is not an individual valuation - you don't have to go with it.
See http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-letter-estimates-differ-from-valuation-guide.html

ardmacha · 25-03-2013 8:09pm

it is illegal. If you own property you can make money on it, but this is your home of which you are not making money on, it's illegal whatever way you look at it. It doesn't matter if it's not popular, it's out-right illegal.

Why don't you say it is illegal again, to be sure to be sure? Or even better explain why it is illegal, exactly.

zenno · 25-03-2013 8:25pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Why don't you say it is illegal again, to be sure to be sure? Or even better explain why it is illegal, exactly.

Illegal...there ye go. Google it. Also anyone that has a brain in their head know's this is illegal.

Illegal.

zenno · 25-03-2013 8:29pm

There you are spending the majority of your life paying for your house and stamp duty as well and at the end of this pain you have just managed to finish paying for it, and then the government want you to pay for your house again. If your brain thinks this is perfectly ok then there is something seriously wrong with your thinking.

Morrisseeee · 25-03-2013 9:33pm

Mmmmm interesting, alot of people I've talked to are getting the one-band-higher rate on their letters !!

An example is a 3 bed semi sold for €140k (only house sold in this particular area for 16 months!!) but the same 3 bed semi's are being valued by Revenue at a band higher in the recent letters !!

Also alot of people think they have to pay what the letter advises/demands, and then claim it back, but in fact all they have to do is put in the band they think they should be in, I'm not sure where this false info came from.

The whole thing stinks, ie. not just this property tax but all the recent measures to squeeze every penny out of ordinary people to pay back for something they had no part in.

It's a modern day reverse Robin Hood, take from the poor & give to the rich

:mad:

Cookie_Monster · 25-03-2013 9:52pm

zenno wrote: »

There you are spending the majority of your life paying for your house and stamp duty as well and at the end of this pain you have just managed to finish paying for it, and then the government want you to pay for your house again. If your brain thinks this is perfectly ok then there is something seriously wrong with your thinking.

not everyone spends the majority of their life paying for a house, in fact I'd argue most wouldn't. I have no intention of spending more than 13-15 years paying for it for example. Stamp duty is a transaction tax and has no bearing on the current discussion.
You've yet to explain why it's illegal.

I think it's slightly immoral when we have to pay water and bins separately instead of being all included and calling it rates but other than that I've no issue with it and see it as both sensible and fully legal.

zenno · 25-03-2013 10:20pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not everyone spends the majority of their life paying for a house, in fact I'd argue most wouldn't. I have no intention of spending more than 13-15 years paying for it for example. Stamp duty is a transaction tax and has no bearing on the current discussion.
You've yet to explain why it's illegal.

I think it's slightly immoral when we have to pay water and bins separately instead of being all included and calling it rates but other than that I've no issue with it and see it as both sensible and fully legal.

That is utter garbage. Why the hell should a person have to pay tax on their home when they already payed to buy their home. Some people here are either working in revenue or government circles and i don't give a jack what other EU country pays property tax as it is not only morally wrong it is illegal in my mind.

I'm sick of this f*cking sh1t.

Not everyone has it as handy as you.

What next ?... this...

THE air we breathe is set to be taxed as part of a revolutionary Government plan to raise more money.

Rural folk will have to cough up the most under the new charge – already dubbed a gasp bill – while those living in our polluted cities will be expected to pay less.

The Air Tariff Control system will assess charges in different areas of the country and every household will be liable for payments, which will be administered by local authorities and added to council tax bills.

The project, to be run by a private firm under a five-year licence, is designed to fund air quality improvement initiatives.

One senior air technician at the Environment Agency said: “Air is natural but, just like water, it is a finite resource that we have to manage sensibly. Water quality and supply improved with privatisation and there is no reason why this should not have the same impact on air. The aim is to allow everyone to enjoy high-quality breathing air.”

The scheme, which the Government believes will help reduce levels of asthma and bronchitis, will see each region of the country allocated an Air Band to determine how much each household will pay.

The Lake District is likely, according to
the documents, to be in the highest bracket while residents of cities such as London, Manchester and Birmingham are earmarked for rebates because of traffic fumes.

Special plants will later be built to capture clean air and regulate its flow around the country, monitored by tracking devices being developed at Ayr University.

But critics believe the Coalition plan will see the end of free air for all in the UK, with private companies cashing in.

One Labour backbencher said last night: “This has literally taken my breath away.”

It is only a matter of time.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow

Just to explain how crazy this all is...pretend the apple is the revenue--whipped by the government, at us flat landers... It comes in from above and is not even acknowledged or even seen by most Irish citizens.

Remove yourself from the square and enter reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

amen · 26-03-2013 2:08pm

Why the hell should a person have to pay tax on their home when they already payed to buy their hom

Do you own a car and if so do you pay motor/road tax?

If so this is the same situation.

Property Tax in Ireland is not new. It was abolished after the general election in 77. FF were well behind in the polls and promised to abolish rates if they won.

They duly won and abolished rates. Of course that lead to a whole other raft of issues in the mid 80's.

If you think property tax is illegal I assume you think all taxes are illegal as they all derive from the the same source i.e. our Government consisting of freely elected TDs.

Lockstep · 26-03-2013 2:35pm

zenno wrote: »

Some people here are either working in revenue or government circles

None of this please. Don't assume that those who disagree with you are biased.

Property tax letters

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