Kilkenny GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post # 5885 #4894 & #5202

unrealtime

lovely article by O Se. Kilkenny hurling is a wonder and its quality on that day was well related by him. Fxxx the small-minded begrudgers.

Realt Dearg Sec

Rosita wrote: »

Pot. Kettle. Black. :cool:

Explain what you mean? I never made any comment about the article itself, and generally I wouldn't make any claim to objectivity about hurling (or anything else for that matter) but powerhouse came on lambasting the article and then attacking anyone who disagreed for lacking objectivity on the subject, as if his own motivations were purely journalistic. Which was clearly hypocritical bull****.

Rosita

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Explain what you mean? I never made any comment about the article itself, and generally I wouldn't make any claim to objectivity about hurling (or anything else for that matter) but powerhouse came on lambasting the article and then attacking anyone who disagreed for lacking objectivity on the subject, as if his own motivations were purely journalistic. Which was clearly hypocritical bull****.

It's obvious what I mean. The pot calling the kettle black is simply (as you know) a statement that someone is accusing someone else of something they themselves are guilty of. In your case you clearly are not objective either so it's a bit of a silly angle to take.

And to be fair to Powerhouse, in a democracy he's entitled to lambast the article surely? Looking back on his/her posts, despite what you claim you are in fact the only person accused of lacking objectivity. And your post about a "preoccupation with Kilkenny" invited that. Let's face it, you probably have the opposite preoccupation i.e. to defend at all costs anything positive that is said about them. So the pot-kettle analogy is fair. That you seem quite open about your own lack of objectivity does not mean you're not behaving hypocritically.

Charlie69

Rosita wrote: »

It's obvious what I mean. The pot calling the kettle black is simply (as you know) a statement that someone is accusing someone else of something they themselves are guilty of. In your case you clearly are not objective either so it's a bit of a silly angle to take.

And to be fair to Powerhouse, in a democracy he's entitled to lambast the article surely? Looking back on his/her posts, despite what you claim you are in fact the only person accused of lacking objectivity. And your post about a "preoccupation with Kilkenny" invited that. Let's face it, you probably have the opposite preoccupation i.e. to defend at all costs anything positive that is said about them. So the pot-kettle analogy is fair. That you seem quite open about your own lack of objectivity does not mean you're not behaving hypocritically.

I don't think the guy was intending to win any awards for his article which as someone said earlier was an opinion piece . O'Se only went to the game because he happened to be in the area and these were his observations of a game and team he rarely gets to see in the flesh, as you said yourself , no harm in it. How someone like Powerhouse could allow this to upset him to this extent is baffling really.

Realt Dearg Sec

edit: meh, this really isn't worth arguing about. It's a sunny day and I've a match to play. Good luck with hating Kilkenny.

Rosita

Charlie69 wrote: »

I don't think the guy was intending to win any awards for his article which as someone said earlier was an opinion piece . O'Se only went to the game because he happened to be in the area and these were his observations of a game and team he rarely gets to see in the flesh, as you said yourself , no harm in it. How someone like Powerhouse could allow this to upset him to this extent is baffling really.

Powerhouse gave an opinion. To say he was 'upset' is stretching it.

Rosita

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I've a match to play. .

Thanks for keeping us in the loop. Was wondering what your plans were alright.

Topcat32

Rosita wrote: »

Powerhouse gave an opinion. To say he was 'upset' is stretching it.

But its the opinion of Charlie69 that Powerhouse appeared to be upset. Is Charlie69 not entitled to give his opinion then? I guess you will say that your entitled to give your opinion that Charlie69's opinion is stretching it. If only there was a hurling championship match on this weekend!!

fed up sick and tired

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's the second poster who described Ó Sé's article as "nice" which really is a word to damn it with faint praise. I think by any objective measure this article is a piece of claptrap.

It was a 24/25 (?) point game? Of course there was no pulling and dragging. What did he expect? A sweat-inducing arm wrestle to the death to decide whether Kilkenny would make it to 26 points and better Wexford's margin against Limerick in last year's championship exit.

Kilkenny had no opposition in Wexford so of course Cody was expressionless. What did Ó Sé expect? Wind back to the 2012 All-Ireland v Galway when he was popping a blood vessel shouting into Anthony Cunningham's ear on the sideline. That might tell us more about Cody I think.

And young people out hurling? Big swinging Mickey. Get out more Tomás.

With Dublin-Kildare and Donegal-Derry coming up at the weekend Ó Sé'd have been better off sticking to his own area of expertise. You don't need 5/6 All Ireland football medals to do a first year 'day at a hurling match' essay. He's still finding his feet in the media game but this effort was a bit of a 'mare as they say.

Could you cite these objective measures, please. And source ?

A harmless piece of print chat, no more objectionable than a lot of John Allen's screeds (just as an example), and infinitely superior to 99.99999% of hurling interviews on tv or radio.

You haven't much to worry about.

Powerhouse

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

Could you cite these objective measures, please. And source ?

A harmless piece of print chat, no more objectionable than a lot of John Allen's screeds (just as an example), and infinitely superior to 99.99999% of hurling interviews on tv or radio.

You haven't much to worry about.

Cite these objective measures of a piece of writing? No great obtuseness here, they are obvious: interestingness, originality, thought-provocation, rigour and tightness of argument, awareness of context, provision of insights not obvious to an outsider might be among them. Not sure what you mean by looking for a 'source' other than maybe thinking it makes you sound intellectual. These are the qualities that any educated educated informed reader tacitly looks for in a decent opinion-piece. Ó Sé doesn't even touch the sides of any of them.

And indeed John Allen's outpourings almost never hit any of these basic judgement criteria either. (The mistake people here make is to convince themselves that this is about Kilkenny - I couldn't give two ***** about Kilkenny either way. It is the thought that people get paid to write this drivel that bothers me. But I suppose there's no legislating for paranoia)

But at least I've never seen what Allen writes described using such sugary pointless adjectives used here such as "nice", "lovely" and even most hollow of all praise....."harmless"; like iced buns or the local curate. Nothing indicted Ó Sé's article quite like the praise it received.

What's happening here is clear. Ó Sé travelled to this match and decided that he could out a handy piece together praising Kilkenny which would go down well in many places and not vaguely court controversy after his recent comments on Cork footballers had raised a bit of fuss. Praising Kilkenny is value-free nonsense. It's like promoting 'equality'; it sounds good and you don't have to think about it. It's not often you can get away with writing something as irrelevant as how many cows you had out the back of the house.

For Kilkenny (as represented here) external validation is clearly hugely important, presumably because they are a successful team in a sport nobody plays. If this was written about any other team people here (at least the ones who'd be inclined to form an opinion rather than just go with the flow all the time) would see it for the frothy space-filler it is.

No more to be said really.

Topcat32

Powerhouse wrote: »

Cite these objective measures of a piece of writing? No great obtuseness here, they are obvious: interestingness, originality, thought-provocation, rigour and tightness of argument, awareness of context, provision of insights not obvious to an outsider might be among them. Not sure what you mean by looking for a 'source' other than maybe thinking it makes you sound intellectual. These are the qualities that any educated educated informed reader tacitly looks for in a decent opinion-piece. Ó Sé doesn't even touch the sides of any of them.

And indeed John Allen's outpourings almost never hit any of these basic judgement criteria either. (The mistake people here make is to convince themselves that this is about Kilkenny - I couldn't give two ***** about Kilkenny either way. It is the thought that people get paid to write this drivel that bothers me. But I suppose there's no legislating for paranoia)

But at least I've never seen what Allen writes described using such sugary pointless adjectives used here such as "nice", "lovely" and even most hollow of all praise....."harmless"; like iced buns or the local curate. Nothing indicted Ó Sé's article quite like the praise it received.

What's happening here is clear. Ó Sé travelled to this match and decided that he could out a handy piece together praising Kilkenny which would go down well in many places and not vaguely court controversy after his recent comments on Cork footballers had raised a bit of fuss. Praising Kilkenny is value-free nonsense. It's like promoting 'equality'; it sounds good and you don't have to think about it. It's not often you can get away with writing something as irrelevant as how many cows you had out the back of the house.

For Kilkenny (as represented here) external validation is clearly hugely important, presumably because they are a successful team in a sport nobody plays. If this was written about any other team people here (at least the ones who'd be inclined to form an opinion rather than just go with the flow all the time) would see it for the frothy space-filler it is.

No more to be said really.

Great effort, if a little long winded and a touch self regarding, good to see the Hunter S Thompson school of journalistic comment is alive and kicking.

Charlie69

Rosita wrote: »

Powerhouse gave an opinion. To say he was 'upset' is stretching it.

OK , to let it "bother" (his word) him to that extent is quite sad really.

fed up sick and tired

Powerhouse wrote: »

Cite these objective measures of a piece of writing? No great obtuseness here, they are obvious: interestingness, originality, thought-provocation, rigour and tightness of argument, awareness of context, provision of insights not obvious to an outsider might be among them. Not sure what you mean by looking for a 'source' other than maybe thinking it makes you sound intellectual. These are the qualities that any educated educated informed reader tacitly looks for in a decent opinion-piece. Ó Sé doesn't even touch the sides of any of them.

And indeed John Allen's outpourings almost never hit any of these basic judgement criteria either. (The mistake people here make is to convince themselves that this is about Kilkenny - I couldn't give two ***** about Kilkenny either way. It is the thought that people get paid to write this drivel that bothers me. But I suppose there's no legislating for paranoia)

But at least I've never seen what Allen writes described using such sugary pointless adjectives used here such as "nice", "lovely" and even most hollow of all praise....."harmless"; like iced buns or the local curate. Nothing indicted Ó Sé's article quite like the praise it received.

What's happening here is clear. Ó Sé travelled to this match and decided that he could out a handy piece together praising Kilkenny which would go down well in many places and not vaguely court controversy after his recent comments on Cork footballers had raised a bit of fuss. Praising Kilkenny is value-free nonsense. It's like promoting 'equality'; it sounds good and you don't have to think about it. It's not often you can get away with writing something as irrelevant as how many cows you had out the back of the house.

For Kilkenny (as represented here) external validation is clearly hugely important, presumably because they are a successful team in a sport nobody plays. If this was written about any other team people here (at least the ones who'd be inclined to form an opinion rather than just go with the flow all the time) would see it for the frothy space-filler it is.

No more to be said really.

I really think you're being a bit pompous.

Anyone approaching the Irish Independent with the idea that they might find there originality, thought-provocation, rigour and tightness of argument, awareness of context, provision of insights not obvious to an outsider is a bit of a daw, to be fair.

Unlike yourself I wear my intellectualism fairly lightly. I save your very sound criteria for serious matters, and don't attempt to impose it on such froth.

It's your reaction to it that's interesting. Up to a point.

KevIRL

KK British junior football champs with a 2-7 to 0-8 win over Scotland. They will now play the Connacht junior champs in the all Ireland series.

All joking aside, well done to the KK team.

(There won't be a cow milked in KK tonight)

citykat

Powerhouse wrote: »

It is the thought that people get paid to write this drivel that bothers me.

Why does it bother you? Are you a spurned/budding journo who can't get a gig? Are you an INM shareholder dissatisfied with company strategy? I thought the piece was 'harmless'. A puff piece that won't offend anybody, not even Wexford despite their dismal showing. In fairness to O'She he cited continually his lack of knowledge and expertise about hurling so you weren't going to get rigorous analysis. I'm really surprised at any rational being getting worked about this to be honest.

Powerhouse

citykat wrote: »

Why does it bother you?

Because I like to read interesting material rather than 'harmless' material; pieces that 'won't offend' anyone because they are so anodyne.

I really don't accept the argument that he continually cites his lack of knowledge of hurling as a mitigating factor. In my view given that this was acknowledged at the outset he really needed to pull something out of the locker to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately he does not appear to have the writing skills or imagination to compensate for writing about a topic outside his area of knowledge.

Tomas's contribution to the media is his unrivalled GAA DNA, a great career and likeability, and unfortunately not the broad bank of knowledge and allusion, or even colour-writing skills that might salvage a decent piece of writing from that acknowledged lack of savvy in relation to the basic topic. Going on about young lads hurling in the street. What was he expecting in Kilkenny? A Crip Walking competition?

Ultimately it's a question of the standards you expect I suppose. I came across this only through the link here. Presumably there are people here who lap this stuff up on a regular basis and think it's grand. I happen to think that when 'harmless' and 'won't offend anyone' are the recurring interpretations of a piece of writing then it was a waste of time. Any piece of writing some have some kind of edge. This one was as edgy as a marshmallow. I am sure, as I have said before, that if the subject matter was otherwise people would see the article for the pointless ramble that it is. But sycophancy and flattery opens many doors.

Powerhouse

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

I really think you're being a bit pompous.

Anyone approaching the Irish Independent with the idea that they might find there originality, thought-provocation, rigour and tightness of argument, awareness of context, provision of insights not obvious to an outsider is a bit of a daw, to be fair.

Unlike yourself I wear my intellectualism fairly lightly. I save your very sound criteria for serious matters, and don't attempt to impose it on such froth.

It's your reaction to it that's interesting. Up to a point.

It's funny how you do actually agree with me regarding the nature of the piece (that it is 'froth') but because of the actual topic you have to defend it. At least you are being bound up by your principles anyway I suppose.

I don't agree with your implication that because hurling is essentially an irrelevant matter in the greater scheme of things that it is quite okay for writing to be dire and unambitious. Whatever the topic a paid writer should make the effort.

citykat

Powerhouse wrote: »

Because I like to read interesting material rather than 'harmless' material; pieces that 'won't offend' anyone because they are so anodyne.

I really don't accept the argument that he continually cites his lack of knowledge of hurling as a mitigating factor. In my view given that this was acknowledged at the outset he really needed to pull something out of the locker to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately he does not appear to have the writing skills or imagination to compensate for writing about a topic outside his area of knowledge.

Tomas's contribution to the media is his unrivalled GAA DNA, a great career and likeability, and unfortunately not the broad bank of knowledge and allusion, or even colour-writing skills that might salvage a decent piece of writing from that acknowledged lack of savvy in relation to the basic topic. Going on about young lads hurling in the street. What was he expecting in Kilkenny? A Crip Walking competition?

Ultimately it's a question of the standards you expect I suppose. I came across this only through the link here. Presumably there are people here who lap this stuff up on a regular basis and think it's grand. I happen to think that when 'harmless' and 'won't offend anyone' are the recurring interpretations of a piece of writing then it was a waste of time. Any piece of writing some have some kind of edge. This one was as edgy as a marshmallow. I am sure, as I have said before, that if the subject matter was otherwise people would see the article for the pointless ramble that it is. But sycophancy and flattery opens many doors.

I still don't see why anybody would get worked up about this. It took me about 5 mins to read and I didn't think any more about it. Nothing new, move on. I'm surprised at somebody going to the bother of posting a caustic review on a Kilkenny GAA forum. There has to be more to life surely.
I wouldn't be expecting Pulitzer prizewinning stuff from somebody whose whole life experience is essentially as an inter county GAA player. There is a place though for ex players in sports writing. Maybe leave the travel writing to others in future...;)

blackcard

Moving on, Galway in one week. I presume Colin Fennelly is fit? If so, he will come in at the expense of John Power and there will be no other changes? I think Shane Prendergast was the first sub to come in to replace a back last week and Mark Kelly was the first forward sub so I would imagine they would be first in line along with John Power to come in as subs next week

fed up sick and tired

Powerhouse wrote: »

It's funny how you do actually agree with me regarding the nature of the piece (that it is 'froth') but because of the actual topic you have to defend it. At least you are being bound up by your principles anyway I suppose.

I don't agree with your implication that because hurling is essentially an irrelevant matter in the greater scheme of things that it is quite okay for writing to be dire and unambitious. Whatever the topic a paid writer should make the effort.

For such an intellectual as you present yourself, your level of reading comprehension is actually diabolical.

In the first place, I didn't defend the piece at all. Regardless of the topic.

I simply don't care enough about it, or have that great an expectation of the II to get worked up. Unlike yourself, by whose reaction I am slightly amused. I wonder what your agenda is ?

I might raise an eyebrow if that kind of thing appeared under Hugh McIlvanney's name, if you've ever heard of him ?



In the second place, nothing that I said warrants the interpretation you've put on it...

that because hurling is essentially an irrelevant matter in the greater scheme of things that it is quite okay for writing to be dire and unambitious

If one could draw any inference from what I said, it is that The Irish Independent is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. (Hurling on the other hand, is crucially important, and be clear about that).



Yours credentials as a judge of literary style are compromised anyway - what sort of construction is this ? -

At least you are being bound up by your principles anyway I suppose.

Appalling. Whatever topic, a writer should make the effort. Regardless of pay. Can we agree on that ?


I think you're a bit of a Walter Mitty, to be honest. Sorry to break the bad news, but I doubt the TLS will be calling.

piuswal

citykat wrote: »

I still don't see why anybody would get worked up about this. It took me about 5 mins to read and I didn't think any more about it. Nothing new, move on. I'm surprised at somebody going to the bother of posting a caustic review on a Kilkenny GAA forum. There has to be more to life surely.
I wouldn't be expecting Pulitzer prizewinning stuff from somebody whose whole life experience is essentially as an inter county GAA player. There is a place though for ex players in sports writing. Maybe leave the travel writing to others in future...;)

Indeed, the reaction to this article has been astounding.

Just to comment on one piece - "the children hurling in the street"

A number of years ago, within the 2000's, a teacher moved our from Waterford City to Mooncoin and had ambitions for setting up a school choir - Primary School.


A colleague met her some moths later and asked how the choir plans were advancing; "not a hope" was the reply, even the little girls only want to hurl at the breaks.

Make of the story what you want.

fed up sick and tired

piuswal wrote: »

Indeed, the reaction to this article has been astounding.

Just to comment on one piece - "the children hurling in the street"

A number of years ago, within the 2000's, a teacher moved our from Waterford City to Mooncoin and had ambitions for setting up a school choir - Primary School.


A colleague met her some moths later and asked how the choir plans were advancing; "not a hope" was the reply, even the little girls only want to hurl at the breaks.

Make of the story what you want.

You can imagine what would happen if she went into a hurling stronghold... like KK city

fed up sick and tired

Powerhouse wrote: »

Because I like to read interesting material rather than 'harmless' material; pieces that 'won't offend' anyone because they are so anodyne.

WELL DON'T READ IT THEN ! ! !

I really don't accept the argument that he continually cites his lack of knowledge of hurling as a mitigating factor. In my view given that this was acknowledged at the outset he really needed to pull something out of the locker to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately he does not appear to have the writing skills or imagination to compensate for writing about a topic outside his area of knowledge.

Yaah, yaah, totally. Sean Rocks wants you on Arena to talk about it.

Ultimately it's a question of the standards you expect I suppose.

Discernment. Cultivate it for yourself.

I came across this only through the link here. Presumably there are people here who lap this stuff up on a regular basis and think it's grand.

Here and elsewhere, no doubt. Without any need of your condescension.

I happen to think that when 'harmless' and 'won't offend anyone' are the recurring interpretations of a piece of writing then it was a waste of time.

No it wasn't. People enjoyed it in their undemanding way, and so what ? Pleasure always has a utility and not everyone has a Melvyn Bragg complex like yourself.

Any piece of writing some have some kind of edge. This one was as edgy as a marshmallow.

Yaah, yaah. Totally.

I am sure, as I have said before, that if the subject matter was otherwise people would see the article for the pointless ramble that it is.

People are just enjoying it, basking in it. It isn't the New York Review of Books and no sane person would put those parameters on it. It's really none of your business, actually.

But sycophancy and flattery opens many doors.

But you won't be fooled. Good man.

Comerman

Is the minor game not being televised??

Brian017

Comerman wrote: »

Is the minor game not being televised??

Only the AI SFs and Final are ever televised

Comerman

Brian017 wrote: »

Only the AI SFs and Final are ever televised

Cheers Brian

pat 22

Can't believe ye guys are being wound up by that clown the power, seriously wondering why I come on here.
Alot if posters lost credibility here and you know who u are ...

Rosita

piuswal wrote: »

Indeed, the reaction to this article has been astounding.

Just to comment on one piece - "the children hurling in the street"

A number of years ago, within the 2000's, a teacher moved our from Waterford City to Mooncoin and had ambitions for setting up a school choir - Primary School.


A colleague met her some moths later and asked how the choir plans were advancing; "not a hope" was the reply, even the little girls only want to hurl at the breaks.

Make of the story what you want.

Not sure about the connection between this story and children hurling in the street to be honest. Kids will always take the easy option. They will always choose some sport over 'boring stuff' (The challenge with girls especially is always the dropout rate in the teenage years) Almost any primary school kid will give PE as the highlight of their week because they get to run around the place which is their natural instinct. Chances are in a primary school in Mooncoin they are not going to go surfing or do Mandarin classes during break. Kids go with the pack.

What I find interesting about this post are two things: 1) the sense of boastfulness - you'd never get someone from the dominant camogie counties of Galway, Wexford or Cork telling a story like this even though they must have fairly serious take-up in that sport, and 2) the tendency to make a virtue of apparent cultural limitation which masks the fact that sheer lack of choice and alternative opportunity is an important factor in the activities of rural children (and indeed urban kids in disadvantaged areas).

As it happens I know of a very decent school choir in the town of Kilkenny so the Okies have not quite captured Muskogee yet!

Rosita

pat 22 wrote: »

Can't believe ye guys are being wound up by that clown the power, seriously wondering why I come on here.
Alot if posters lost credibility here and you know who u are ...

Poor old 'Fed up sick and tired' appears to have gone into meltdown right enough!!!

Powerhouse's point were well made though. Far from a clown I'd say. Look at the evident intellectual intimidation in the replies to him.

Realt Dearg Sec

Anyone any ideas on what might be the starting fifteen against Galway?