Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Wibbs

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why are so many people insistent on breaking the no Irish without a translation rule?

Protest along the lines of "this is an Irish site, it's our right!!" etc It's come up before a few times.

Coles

9959 wrote: »

I thought 1.7 million Irish people claimed that they could speak it, well there's lies, damned lies, and people who claim to understand Irish.

Why wouldn't they understand Irish after spending 14 years learning it?

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Annoy isn't the word but yes it's against the rules to post in any language without translation Irish included.

Since you are, quote "offended" if someone addresses you in Irish then there must be some amount of "annoyance" involved
The rule is there to prevent people having discussions in other languages which is fair, to get uppity over a line or two of a well know song is ......well.... interesting.

Also, why do people only demand translations from Irish and not from any of the other languages that pop up from time to time, the odd sentence of Russian or French for example.
Don't you think that that shows an attitude towards the language rather than a comprehension issue?

I note you haven't asked for a translation of the Armenian national anthem.



'S é do bheatha, a bhean ba léannmhar
Dob’ é ár gcreach do bheith i ngébheann,
Do dhúthaigh bhreá i seilbh méirleach,
'S tú díolta leis na Gallaibh.

9959

Wibbs wrote: »

Protest along the lines of "this is an Irish site, it's our right!!" etc It's come up before a few times.

You omitted an important word there, no Irish language hawk, worth his or her salt, has ever 'banged on' about their 'rights' without using the obligatory prefix, 'CONSTITUTIONAL'.

9959

Coles wrote: »

Why wouldn't they understand Irish after spending 14 years learning it?

According to you, because they're thick, ignorant, and have a bad attitude.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter;837I&#39 wrote: »

Since you are, quote "offended" if someone addresses you in Irish then there must be some amount of "annoyance" involved
The rule is there to prevent people having discussions in other languages which is fair, to get uppity over a line or two of a well know song is ......well.... interesting.

Also, why do people only demand translations from Irish and not from any of the other languages that pop up from time to time, the odd sentence of Russian or French for example.
Don't you think that that shows an attitude towards the language rather than a comprehension issue?

I note you haven't asked for a translation of the Armenian national anthem.



'S é do bheatha, a bhean ba léannmhar
Dob’ é ár gcreach do bheith i ngébheann,
Do dhúthaigh bhreá i seilbh méirleach,
'S tú díolta leis na Gallaibh.

I'm not offended I asked why people constantly feel the need to break the rules. Contrary to your belief I have nothing against Irish.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

Why wouldn't they understand Irish after spending 14 years learning it?

Not this again. Go back to the early pages and go from there for various explanations.

9959 wrote: »

You omitted an important word there, no Irish language hawk, worth his or her salt, has ever 'banged on' about their 'rights' without using the obligatory prefix, 'CONSTITUTIONAL'.

Plus like the eejit dealing with the Garda, they want to be warned/banned as part of their "protest". While most onlookers shrug their shoulders or worse swear off any future interest in the language.

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not offended I asked why people constantly feel the need to break the rules. Contrary to your belief I have nothing against Irish.

There are many many little bits of various languages in posts all over this forum, from sayings, to song lyrics, to people having fun, but only in Irish are demands or comments made unless people go overboard and start chatting too much, did you ever ever hear of "leeway".

To be offended if someone tries to initiate a conversation with you in the language shows a serious issue. If you insist I will find the post where you actually say that this is how you feel, will that be necessary?

Again I will ask why is this only brought up regarding Irish?
One tiny little bit of Irish will bring on demands or comments yet a whole song in Armenian will not, interesting no?

9959

Rubeter wrote: »

There are many many little bits of various languages in posts all over this forum, from sayings, to song lyrics, to people having fun, but only in Irish are demands or comments made unless people go overboard and start chatting too much, did you ever ever hear of "leeway".

To be offended if someone tries to initiate a conversation with you in the language shows a serious issue. If you insist I will find the post where you actually say that this is how you feel, will that be necessary?

Again I will ask why is this only brought up regarding Irish?
One tiny little bit of Irish will bring on demands or comments yet a whole song in Armenian will not, interesting no?

Armenian language enthusiasts don't have their very own forum on 'boards', you do, you lucky sod, please use and enjoy, by the way you'll have the place all to yourself, I just popped over for a quick visit, the number of current active users?, eh, none, not even one of those eager 1.7 million 'speakers', how ungrateful.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Why wouldn't they understand Irish after spending 14 years learning it?

Are you serious?

Rubeter wrote: »

Also, why do people only demand translations from Irish and not from any of the other languages that pop up from time to time, the odd sentence of Russian or French for example.
Don't you think that that shows an attitude towards the language rather than a comprehension issue?

Meh, not botherred with that one. Rules is there, though, take it up with whoeve writs the charter. Post in whatever language you like, I say, but if you've gone to the trouble of creating an account to post on boards.ie, presumable for the purposes of engaging in online, posting in English would be advisable.

If you didn't, don't.

9959 wrote: »

You omitted an important word there, no Irish language hawk, worth his or her salt, has ever 'banged on' about their 'rights' without using the obligatory prefix, 'CONSTITUTIONAL'.

Boards.ie points out, very frequently, that this is a privately owned website and you, along with every other poster, agreed to the owners rules when you first create your account. You don't technically even have free speech here.

Rubeter wrote: »

There are many many little bits of various languages in posts all over this forum, from sayings, to song lyrics, to people having fun, but only in Irish are demands or comments made unless people go overboard and start chatting too much, did you ever ever hear of "leeway".

To be offended if someone tries to initiate a conversation with you in the language shows a serious issue. If you insist I will find the post where you actually say that this is how you feel, will that be necessary?

Again I will ask why is this only brought up regarding Irish?
One tiny little bit of Irish will bring on demands or comments yet a whole song in Armenian will not, interesting no?

Practically speaking, if you start talking in Armenian, it's going to be a very short converstaion and will pretty much evoke the same reaction as posting in Irish.

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

1.7 million Irish People claim that they can understand the language. Is that 'hardly anyone'? Maybe 'hardly anyone' in your family? Or 'hardly anyone' of your friends?

Key word there

An Coilean

Wibbs wrote: »

Plus like the eejit dealing with the Garda, they want to be warned/banned as part of their "protest". While most onlookers shrug their shoulders or worse swear off any future interest in the language.

The guy really touched a nerve with you guys didn't he, the amount of petty abuse and name calling for simply choosing to speak Irish is shocking.

If people are turned of a language because of someone politely but firmly choosing to speak it, I very much doubt they had much interest in the first place.

Lord TSC

An Coilean wrote: »

The guy really touched a nerve with you guys didn't he, the amount of petty abuse and name calling for simply choosing to speak Irish is shocking.

You really don't want to get it through your head, do you. No one is complaining he wanted to speak Irish. We're complaining that he decided to disrupt the Gardai's time after breaking the law.

I, personally, would be mortified if the Gardai pulled me over, and would want to be as helpful as possible to achieve the quickest resolution possible. I do get why you want to champion the law-breaker but it doesn't change the fact he was acting the maggot. He broke the law, he should have wanted to be as helpful to the Gardai as possible, not wanting to cause a major disruption...

Wibbs

He was choosing to speak Irish to make a point, though he was fully fluent in the other official language of the state. If he wasn't he could have had a point alright.

Even so if you look back I also suggested the Guard went well OTT with the arresting(and apparently handcuffing the guy) for a traffic offence.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

The guy really touched a nerve with you guys didn't he, the amount of petty abuse and name calling for simply choosing to speak Irish is shocking.

If people are turned of a language because of someone politely but firmly choosing to speak it, I very much doubt they had much interest in the first place.

Touched a nerve by arrogantly thinking that speaking Irish gave the right to break the law by refusing to help a Guard. You don't "politely and firmly" do that and not get arrested!

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

He was choosing to speak Irish to make a point, though he was fully fluent in the other official language of the state. If he wasn't he could have had a point alright.

Even so if you look back I also suggested the Guard went well OTT with the arresting(and apparently handcuffing the guy) for a traffic offence.

I agree that he was being a jerk, but he makes a relevant point.

If the country guarantees a right to speak Irish as a first national language, then the state has to back it up, otherwise revoke the right.

Maybe that is the big problem, it's time to **** or get off the pot, it's only so far you can take the love affair with ambiguity.

Rubeter

9959 wrote: »

Armenian language enthusiasts don't have their very own forum on 'boards', you do, you lucky sod, please use and enjoy, by the way you'll have the place all to yourself, I just popped over for a quick visit, the number of current active users?, eh, none, not even one of those eager 1.7 million 'speakers', how ungrateful.

Ouch that hurts. Is there a smiley around to show the cat clawing motion accompanied by a screechy cat noise for when someone says something for no reason other than being "catty"?
Is that really the best you can do regarding my point? By the way, thanks for actually helping me make that point by posting (against the rules I might add) something in a language other than the good ole queens English, without actually providing a translation for those who might not be able to stomach the sight of anything other than the sight of that (this) wonderful language.

It's interesting that some of the more vociferous anti-Irish posters here have mentioned they will not be told what language they must speak, surely then they must agree and empathise with the fella dealing with the Guards or does that sentiment only work one way?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clairefontaine wrote: »

I agree that he was being a jerk, but he makes a relevant point.

If the country guarantees a right to speak Irish as a first national language, then the state has to back it up, otherwise revoke the right.

Maybe that is the big problem, it's time to **** or get off the pot, it's only so far you can take the love affair with ambiguity.

No, it doesn't. Guaranteeing your right to speak it does not guarantee your right to be spoken to in it. Not as you've written it - official Acts may have it more acurately. If you were right every clerk who works in the public sector would be required to learn it. You could even make a case for private sector.

clairefontaine

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No, it doesn't. Guaranteeing your right to speak it does not guarantee your right to be spoken to in it. Not as you've written it - official Acts may have it more acurately. If you were right every clerk who works in the public sector would be required to learn it. You could even make a case for private sector.

Ah ok, so the rights around it are pretty much the same as any other language?

Wibbs

clairefontaine wrote: »

it's only so far you can take the love affair with ambiguity.

Not in Ireland.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ah ok, so the rights around it are pretty much the same as any other language?

As I said, I don't know how it's written, but as you put it, yes. I mean, they can't turn around and stop someone from speaking a certain langauge.

The Lanaguge Act probably does say somethign different, but I don't think it makes provision for every citizen dealing with the State in every capacity to have every civil servant or clerk to speak Irish.

ZeitgeistGlee

An Coilean wrote: »

The guy really touched a nerve with you guys didn't he, the amount of petty abuse and name calling for simply choosing to speak Irish is shocking.

As opposed to the petty abuse and name calling which has been directed at people here for challenging the entitlement and superiority complex among Irish proponents here being shocking? Well I'm not really shocked at it from my own experiences, but if you aren't either then it's truly par for the course.

An Coilean wrote: »

If people are turned of a language because of someone politely but firmly choosing to speak it, I very much doubt they had much interest in the first place.

Yes because we all relish indulging someone else in their "polite but firm choices" which makes engaging in our own work more difficult and time consuming. Lord knows I can't possibly see why anyone might develop sympathetic irritation at that. :rolleyes:

I wonder if he'd been involved in a traffic accident rather than pulled over for a traffic offence would his resolve to use Irish have been as firm.

An Coilean

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Touched a nerve by arrogantly thinking that speaking Irish gave the right to break the law by refusing to help a Guard. You don't "politely and firmly" do that and not get arrested!

Who, besides yourself said he refused to help the Garda?

Also, you are the one claiming he was arrogant, witnesses and Gardaí involved in the incident on the other hand said he was polite to the point of being passive. Given you weren't there, I think I will believe the latter.

You seem determined to cling to the belief that choosing to speak Irish when dealing with the Gardaí amounts to refusing to help them, it does not, the onus is on the Gardaí to accommodate the choice to speak Irish, in this incident they failed to do so and the blame for that lies with them.


There has also been the suggestion that every Garda is expected to speak Irish, that is not the case and suggesting it is is mearly a strawman.

Any key?

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

As opposed to the petty abuse and name calling which has been directed at people here for challenging the entitlement and superiority complex among Irish proponents here being shocking? Well I'm not really shocked at it from my own experiences, but if you aren't either then it's truly par for the course.



Yes because we all relish indulging someone else in their "polite but firm choices" which makes engaging in our own work more difficult and time consuming. Lord knows I can't possibly see why anyone might develop sympathetic irritation at that. :rolleyes:

I wonder if he'd been involved in a traffic accident rather than pulled over for a traffic offence would his resolve to use Irish have been as firm.

And aren't we so lucky as a nation to be entitled to that superiority complex?

The backlash against our own national language is embarressing.

twinQuins

An Coilean wrote: »

Who, besides yourself said he refused to help the Garda?

Also, you are the one claiming he was arrogant, witnesses and Gardaí involved in the incident on the other hand said he was polite to the point of being passive. Given you weren't there, I think I will believe the latter.

You seem determined to cling to the belief that choosing to speak Irish when dealing with the Gardaí amounts to refusing to help them, it does not, the onus is on the Gardaí to accommodate the choice to speak Irish, in this incident they failed to do so and the blame for that lies with them.

Considering it's infeasible for them to field the personnel required to meet with every possible case of someone wanting to deal with them through Irish - you even admit so later in your post - I'd say the blame lies with speakers of Irish and their, frankly, unrealistic expectations.

There has also been the suggestion that every Garda is expected to speak Irish, that is not the case and suggesting it is is mearly a strawman.

Okay... so which is it? Either the Garda can't be expected to meet the need and so Irish speakers should be aware of this and accept the consequences of it or they should be able to and it's not a strawman at all.

If there's no expectation that every Garda will be able to speak Irish how can they possibly provide coverage for every eventuality? Surely you must accept that given that reality there'll be cases where if you want to deal with them in Irish you'll just have to wait until there's someone available.

And if you accept that then you must also accept that nothing wrong was done in this case. The guy in question didn't want to give his details in a manner that could be understood, the Gardaí have a reasonable right to detain people who are uncooperative.
And yes, uncooperative he was - all he had to do was give his details in English and save both their time.

But before we get back to the first point (as I'm sure will happen) I'll save you the bother - as we see, since it's impossible to provide coverage to all cases the guy in question could either speak in English and save his time or not and waste it. That's not denying him his rights, that's just having to square the expectations under law with the reality.

Coles

Any key? wrote: »

The backlash against our own national language is embarrassing.

What was particularly embarrassing was when earlier in the thread a Swedish boardsie didn't receive a word of thanks or encouragement for making the effort to learn the language, but was instead attacked and sneered at.

Sickening stuff by this anti-Irish gang. But they're just a tiny minority. A bit like the BNP.

twinQuins

Coles, I'm sure I'm not the only one getting a little sick of your snide little remarks.
If anyone is like the BNP it's yourself and your arrogant assertions as to who's "really" Irish.

You want to play "who's culturally superior"? Fine. Go have a pissing contest elsewhere and stop ****posting here. You're not doing your side of the debate any favours.

Coles

twinQuins wrote: »

Considering it's infeasible for them to field the personnel required to meet with every possible case of someone wanting to deal with them through Irish - you even admit so later in your post - I'd say the blame lies with speakers of Irish and their, frankly, unrealistic expectations.

Okay... so which is it? Either the Garda can't be expected to meet the need and so Irish speakers should be aware of this and accept the consequences of it or they should be able to and it's not a strawman at all.

If there's no expectation that every Garda will be able to speak Irish how can they possibly provide coverage for every eventuality? Surely you must accept that given that reality there'll be cases where if you want to deal with them in Irish you'll just have to wait until there's someone available.

And if you accept that then you must also accept that nothing wrong was done in this case. The guy in question didn't want to give his details in a manner that could be understood, the Gardaí have a reasonable right to detain people who are uncooperative.
And yes, uncooperative he was - all he had to do was give his details in English and save both their time.

But before we get back to the first point (as I'm sure will happen) I'll save you the bother - as we see, since it's impossible to provide coverage to all cases the guy in question could either speak in English and save his time or not and waste it. That's not denying him his rights, that's just having to square the expectations under law with the reality.

Thankfully the Irish Language Commissioner is insisting that the Gardai freshen up on the language. Certainly any Gardai who entered the force using the Irish Language as one of their two qualifying languages should be required to maintain it to that level. I suspect that would be the vast majority?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

Who, besides yourself said he refused to help the Garda?

Very fair point, and to be honest, no-one. I'm putting it forward as the most likely scenario.

The problem is that we have fourth-hand information and none of us know. You direced me to a Gaelport link which has absolutely no references to it!! How the hell am I supposed to check the other side of the story? There's not even a link to the report they quoted - and anything that quotes something wihtout a source makes me VERY skeptical. We don't even have any mentino of names, Gardai names or stations. There is NOTHING of substance in the link.

So no - I don't know why he was arrested. But then neither do you and neither does Gaelport. Nor the Commissioner, probably. None of us even know if he even was arrested!

Also, you are the one claiming he was arrogant, witnesses and Gardaí involved in the incident on the other hand said he was polite to the point of being passive. Given you weren't there, I think I will believe the latter.

You'll need to provide evidence of this. I could turn around and say to you that he told the Gardai to **** off and you'd ask me for the same evidence.

You seem determined to cling to the belief that choosing to speak Irish when dealing with the Gardaí amounts to refusing to help them, it does not, the onus is on the Gardaí to accommodate the choice to speak Irish, in this incident they failed to do so and the blame for that lies with them.

If the guard asked him to speak English and he refused then yes, most certainly. Unless he was unable to speak English, which, again, would be speculation.

There has also been the suggestion that every Garda is expected to speak Irish, that is not the case and suggesting it is is mearly a strawman.

the onus is on the Gardaí to accommodate the choice to speak Irish, in this incident they failed to do so and the blame for that lies with them.

Coles

twinQuins wrote: »

Coles, I'm sure I'm not the only one getting a little sick of your snide little remarks.
If anyone is like the BNP it's yourself and your arrogant assertions as to who's "really" Irish.

I regard everyone who wishes to be Irish as Irish! It's simply a matter of choice. I've been consistent in this.

You want to play "who's culturally superior"? Fine. Go have a pissing contest elsewhere and stop ****posting here. You're not doing your side of the debate any favours.

Or if you can't be polite you could find yourself another thread? There's a good lad.