Future in Suckling Farming

Cultie

Ifj are you serious? They only go to gross margin on sucklers because it looks good.
The better fa programme is sponsored by the factories so have to make ut look good.

Promote that margins can be improved, keeps cattle supplies up, sells the red top and keeps a few teagasc lads in jobs.

How many farms actually do profit monitor? What percentage of irish farmers?

Miname

Cultie wrote: »

Ifj are you serious? They only go to gross margin on sucklers because it looks good.
The better fa programme is sponsored by the factories so have to make ut look good.

Promote that margins can be improved, keeps cattle supplies up, sells the red top and keeps a few teagasc lads in jobs.

How many farms actually do profit monitor? What percentage of irish farmers?

Id say a lot are doing the profit moniter. There are going to be the lads that wont but most progresive lads will have it done or at least be aiming to try to. its not exactly rocket science and gives a good clear picture of where money can be saved.

jfh

Cultie wrote: »

Basically the majority of individual suckler producers are part time, who don't need to make any money from the enterprise.
.

50% suckler farmers are part time that was info from John hogan md kepak, Not sure where he sourced this but id imagine its going to get higher..

just do it

Cultie wrote: »

How many farms actually do profit monitor? What percentage of irish farmers?

Anyone running it as a business does. Ask a sucker farmer the cost off keeping a cow per year and you'll get an estimate. Ask a dairy farm the cost of any input and you'll get an exact c/l. Tells its own story.

Bodacious

49801 wrote: »

I'd like to stay in sucking for interest
We're going into contract rearing and the big advantage to us is no more calving cows. We just can't give the attention required to go to 80cows due to full time off farm jobs and young families. I just don't think I'll have the same interest in the black and white stock. We're going to have our day out in Macroom mart on the 9th march:(

For me suckler farming improvements lie's with grass and genetics

Just in from checking 2 springers for calving 3.30 am soaked to the bolxx and im thinking there has to be a an easier way of making a few bob from farming than this.


it'd break my heart to part with some of the young cows ive bred/ bought as weanlings but there is a lot to be said for few dry heifers that you can feed and swing close the gate and that's it til this time tomorrow


I think its the job satisfaction of suckling ie would that bull suit that cow? a weak calf coming good etc that keeps men at it but serious hours and sacrificies to be made at weekend s etc during winter months

bbam

I can see how the breeding aspect is such a big draw for lads.

Bodacious

bbam wrote: »

I can see how the breeding aspect is such a big draw for lads.

yup and its worse for lads using 100% ai.


im still toying with going into AA scheme but I don't know if id have the same enthusiasm if I had a black bull going to same cows every year and bringing them to finish and maybe I would, maybe the challenge would present itself in getting them slaughtered at exactly the right fat class and which cows consistently giving offspring that k.o.@ R and heaviest leaving most € in the pocket

bbam

Bodacious wrote: »

yup and its worse for lads using 100% ai.


im still toying with going into AA scheme but I don't know if id have the same enthusiasm if I had a black bull going to same cows every year and bringing them to finish and maybe I would, maybe the challenge would present itself in getting them slaughtered at exactly the right fat class and which cows consistently giving offspring that k.o.@ R and heaviest leaving most € in the pocket

That's a big change in focus... maybe a gradual change over using top AA straws in the begining to test the water..

But its dangerous to tie yourself to one specific end of the business to the detrement of the business being successful.
If a business model isn't working then it needs to be addressed to either change away from it or make it profitable..

just do it

I note a dairy farmer featured in the journal for 2013 had a margin of €550/cow. With best practice a margin of €400/suckler cow is achievable (better farms). Maybe all's not lost?!

Farmer Pudsey

just do it wrote: »

I note a dairy farmer featured in the journal for 2013 had a margin of €550/cow. With best practice a margin of €400/suckler cow is achievable (better farms). Maybe all's not lost?!

Most average dairy farmers are achieving this level of profit if not more not to mind margin. A better farm(maybe in top 20% of suckler producers) can achiever a margin of 400???. lots dairy farms are stocked at 1 cow/acre, whereon most suckler farmers are stocked at a suckler unit/HA. Lots od Dairy farms are turning over maybe 5K/HA a suckler farm may be turning over 1K/HA.

There is no point in comparing suckler to dairying.

Cultie

400 euros of a margin before fixed costs.

This would not leave much profit.

The journal always goes to gross margin as thy say this is mor comparable amongst farms than net profit I.e gross margin less fixed costs.

As I said before the lads in the better farm programme show good gross margins but have they any profit.

Gross margins will always be positive and with the journals spin along with funding from the factories and teagasc involved it keeps paper sales up, cattle up plies up for the factories and the teagasc empire going strong.

coolshannagh28

We are doing profit monitors on Friday in our beef discussion group I will report back but if its anything like last years it will be a bloodbath ,we gave up long before we got to land costs, most efficient suckler man was spending 5k of a 45k SFP to stay in business.
A range of very impressive farmers in the group some with 70+ smashing cows and deep knowledge of the requirements but mostly dependent on outside jobs or good laying hens to stay afloat.

onyerbikepat

Cultie wrote: »

400 euros of a margin before fixed costs.

This would not leave much profit.

The journal always goes to gross margin as thy say this is mor comparable amongst farms than net profit I.e gross margin less fixed costs.

As I said before the lads in the better farm programme show good gross margins but have they any profit.

Gross margins will always be positive and with the journals spin along with funding from the factories and teagasc involved it keeps paper sales up, cattle up plies up for the factories and the teagasc empire going strong.

That's exectly the way I'm thinking aswell. Nobody wants to rock the boat. This Gross Profit reporting in the Journal every week.....:mad:

rancher

Cultie wrote: »

400 euros of a margin before fixed costs.

This would not leave much profit.

The journal always goes to gross margin as thy say this is mor comparable amongst farms than net profit I.e gross margin less fixed costs.

As I said before the lads in the better farm programme show good gross margins but have they any profit.

Gross margins will always be positive and with the journals spin along with funding from the factories and teagasc involved it keeps paper sales up, cattle up plies up for the factories and the teagasc empire going strong.

Wouldn't agree, because drystock incomes are so low, a lot of them are second incomes as in part time farmers, wives working etc so these people have the opportunity of reducing tax by raising their fixed costs, I bought a new jeep and I see reiig saying the same as in putting a lot of effort into modernising the farm before he finally goes full time.
How can you compare fixed costs when you factor in things like that where as you can compare variable costs across farms
Journal has always said to aim for 1000/ha, gross margin. they wouldn't say 400 was positive,

Cultie

Has 1000 euros per hectare been achieved?

Not any have and the lads picked were on reasonably good land.

Even if you got 1000 euros per hectare, 100 acres or 40 hectares getting 40,000. Would this cover fixed costs on a full unit if the need for tax avoidance due to off farm incomes was not required?

Miname

rancher wrote: »

Wouldn't agree, because drystock incomes are so low, a lot of them are second incomes as in part time farmers, wives working etc so these people have the opportunity of reducing tax by raising their fixed costs, I bought a new jeep and I see reiig saying the same as in putting a lot of effort into modernising the farm before he finally goes full time.
How can you compare fixed costs when you factor in things like that where as you can compare variable costs across farms
Journal has always said to aim for 1000/ha, gross margin. they wouldn't say 400 was positive,

One lad in our group had just over 1600 and another just under 1800. Its possable to make money you just have work hard at it. I was the lowest in the group that year and it fairly made me realise where i was going wrong. Sorry i should mention both lads were finishing all stock.

rancher

Cultie wrote: »

Has 1000 euros per hectare been achieved?

Not any have and the lads picked were on reasonably good land.

Even if you got 1000 euros per hectare, 100 acres or 40 hectares getting 40,000. Would this cover fixed costs on a full unit if the need for tax avoidance due to off farm incomes was not required?

Surely half of it would cover fixed costs easily, probably a lot less than that

Farmer Pudsey

Loads of farmers take these profit monitors as gospel. The first thing about drystock is that over 50% of the farmers involved are working as well. if they have an anyway decent job if they make a profit they will pay about 35% of the money to revenue between Tax Prsi and USC even at the standard rate of tax and if they are at the high rate they might as well close up shop.

There fore in my opinion there are lies, damm lies, stastics and after that come profit monitors the information that is in them should be taken with a grain of salt. You see some lads that are employed in fairly ordinary jobs changing cars ever two years if the husband/wife is working they will usually have a ver good car to go to work in. These are lifestyle choices as the jeeps you see some farmers drive. Then there is the pony the daughter rides at the local Gymkana which arrive in a 3-4K box that has a shine off it. The grown up son may be driving a small van rather than a car.

A lot of what you see is wealth creation or lifestyle choices rather than drawing income that will be taxed heavily.

rancher

Miname wrote: »

One lad in our group had just over 1600 and another just under 1800. Its possable to make money you just have work hard at it. I was the lowest in the group that year and it fairly made me realise where i was going wrong. Sorry i should mention both lads were finishing all stock.

Are you sure that's not gross output, were they suckler farmers

Cultie

I cannot actually believe that.

Lets say stocked at 2lu per hectare that would basically be a cow plus follower.

400kg dw at 450cent would get 1800 euros. And with .95 calves per cow how could you have a margin of 1800 euros per hectare. Is ther no meal fertiliser or vet costs.

Only way to get this level of margin is to be intensively finishing store to beef cattle in the house and spread their margins over the hectares.

Give us even a rough break down of how you could get 1800 euros er hectare.? Sales per cow, fertiliser, meal and vet per cow included?

Miname

rancher wrote: »

Are you sure that's not gross output, were they suckler farmers

Yeh sorry thats what i should have said.

blue5000

In our group the best performers are finishing all their own calves and buying in either suck calves or weanlings to finish as well. The poor relations are the guys selling weanlings.

Cultie

rancher wrote: »

Surely half of it would cover fixed costs easily, probably a lot less than that

Not a mission. Half would not cove it. Fixed costs would be a least 30,000.

Which leaves 10,000. Sure if you rented the 100 acres out you would get that.

One thing my advisor said to was that if a lnd rental charge was included in profit monitors may as well shut up shop!

Farmer Pudsey

Cultie wrote: »

Not a mission. Half would not cove it. Fixed costs would be a least 30,000.

Which leaves 10,000. Sure if you rented the 100 acres out you would get that.

One thing my advisor said to was that if a lnd rental charge was included in profit monitors may as well shut up shop!

If you rented it out and got 10k you give anything from 3.5-6K to the tax man unless you had activelty farmed for a few years. Even then you have to be over 40 I think for leasing allowance to apply. On conacre it is fully taxed

bbam

Ah lads..
Are we saying that only part time farmers are making "lifestyle choices". The ongoing negativity towards part time farmers is quite shocking..

I'd love to truly understand what a part time farmer is anyway.. So are we just against lads who have off farm income... how about lads who hang round the farm all day dropping and collecting kids at school and their missus has the off farm income, sure they are a part time farm too as they have the off farm income.. If ye went down to the nuts and bolts of what ye are saying there aren't too many farms that don't have an off farm income of some sorts... Be it jobs drawing silage or cattle or some other little sideline..

Feck Sake lads, grow up !

Miname

Ive just under 100 acres. ive 40 cows calving 20 autumn 10 early spring 10 march (not by choice this year) culls are going out before gluts come (early autumn and march) All bulls are pushed and sold live as weanlings all heifers finished and plain r grades bought and finished along with them as butchers heifers, some sold live depending on trade. one cow per hectare isnt going to get near enough of a return for what i want out of farming. When i started to push up numbers my father said there was no way our ground could carry more no.s but im slowly pushing it out and seeing the results. The main issue i found was finding money to buy fertilizer and pay contractors and such as the year progressed but as no.s pushed i just had to be more organised, a reseeding plan is being incorporated and ive plans for another shed going up. I intend to push a gross output of a lot more than 1800 next year but i have to say my meal bills are ever increasing.
A friend of mine is running one suckler to the acre on mediocre ground, needless to say he hasnt a penny sfp. He is able to make it work.

rancher

bbam wrote: »

Ah lads..
Are we saying that only part time farmers are making "lifestyle choices". The ongoing negativity towards part time farmers is quite shocking..

I'd love to truly understand what a part time farmer is anyway.. So are we just against lads who have off farm income... how about lads who hang round the farm all day dropping and collecting kids at school and their missus has the off farm income, sure they are a part time farm too as they have the off farm income.. If ye went down to the nuts and bolts of what ye are saying there aren't too many farms that don't have an off farm income of some sorts... Be it jobs drawing silage or cattle or some other little sideline..

Feck Sake lads, grow up !

I think that's what I said in my post....part timers, working wives, etc,
Some of these are using the option to reduce taxes

onyerbikepat

Some people talking about Gross profit, some talking about Gross Output. Bit of a difference.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

Miname wrote: »

All bulls are pushed and sold live as weanlings

I'm currently thinking over what to do with my weanling bulls in the future and was wondering what kind of average weight do you sell them at and how much meal do you feed them to get to that condition.

Miname

bulls are sold between 350-400kg the odd one a bit less. I didnt split it down to bulls and heifers but e60 per calf is what it came into last year and it was 2/3 heifers to bulls. This year im going to creep a small bit to the bulls as soon as they are eating. ive the autumn on ration now and the last ones that calved wont be getting anything for a while yet but i'm going to try and get them on it asap. it suits to have them moved earlier as the dry cows eat a lot less. ive seen a few lads push the heifers from day 1 too but they are usually selling as weanlings.