Future in Suckling Farming

1chippy

going of the other thead and having a look at my profit monitor do many of the suckler farmers out there see much of a future in it. I know there are a lot of lads talking to move over to contract rearing and some talking of moving to beef finishing, but as i see it there needs to be a proportionate amount in each aspect of beef production however it seems to be getting harder to pull anything reasonable on a consistent basis out of suckling. how do other lads see it? (and you too whelan)

fatoftheland

from what i see and chatting to other farmers very very few can make a living from suckling as we know it. once calved heifers may provide more profit. teagasc figures in the ifj 2 weeks ago put the cost of producing a weanling at €700-800. if you have a small SFP its a non runner,if a farmer has off farm employment keeping sucklers is difficult. at the moment a lot of the older farmers farm out of habit so as the next generation comes along they are not going to do all the work for a small return but i could be wrong!

bob charles

if beef price hits €6 a kilo there will be a future irrespective of SFP. Will our exported calves always be wanted where ever they end up? What would the average SFP per cow equate to on most farms? €150 a cow?

bbam

Lads planning to stay in suckling need to be looking to produce the premium weanling. They need to be producing an animal that commands the €900-1000 price tag at 9-10 months. Far too many are turning out weanlings at €500-700 and to be honest they're not making anything worthwhile, maybe €100 if they're lucky.
Then scalability is the next challenge. For a full time living anyone with little or no SFP would need to be looking at 50-70 sucklers producing the premium weanlings above, even that's only leaving ~ 70*€300= €21,000 profit and that's a serious amount of work for one man and if you have to hire much labour the profits going to get smaller.
Current suckling operations are highly subsidised with SFP, maybe it will remain and lads can go on producing beef at or below cost price, but major changes to ye SFP will force many lads to change or quit.
Then there is the latest revaluation of the place in Tipp selling cuts of horse as Irish Beef, this could really damage our reputation as a premium beef exporting country. Then what happens to the 90% of Irish beef that's exported. Even a 10-15% drop in exports from a scandal would leave such a national surplus that prices would be seriously effected.

blue5000

Just a couple of thoughts on it,

1.A few are getting out and going buying weanlings instead for further feeding/finishing. Everyone of these getting out of suckling will make a double whammy by not selling weanlings and buying them instead, so that should lift prices.

2. Trade for weanlings last autumn was depressed, lots of factors, feed, less exports, more calves on the ground last spring.

3.I was selling weanlings, but am now changing to finishing the best of the bulls. Still selling the heifers and later born bulls at 3-400kg.

4. Once calved heifers seem good on paper, but there has to be a market for the extra calves, there is no point in producing them for a glut which would depress the market even more.

5. I don't think consumers will be able to pay for beef at 6e/kg.

6. Grass is our natural advantage, I don't think we market this enough or utilise it enough. For the past 10-15 years we have been using a lot of continental genetics that need grain to finish them. As grain prices rise these cattle are not as economic anymore. As beef farmers we are kidding ourselves getting 1500 e for a finished beast and throwing all the profit at the millers. Haven't explained that one very well, but I think anyone who finished cattle last autumn knows what I'm talking about.

So to answer your question OP, there is a future in suckling, provided it doesn't get anymore food scare knocks etc. But I think we need to re-look at what we are doing.

I think the comic did an article that showed there is 235e of subs gone off a suckler cow between SCWS, REPS, DAS in the last 4 years. Along with higher inputs the squeeze is on. A lot of us have had to invest a lot of money in slurry storage recently, without these subsidies the suckler cow is not able to pay for these buildings off her own back.

freedominacup

bbam wrote: »

Lads planning to stay in suckling need to be looking to produce the premium weanling. They need to be producing an animal that commands the €900-1000 price tag at 9-10 months. Far too many are turning out weanlings at €500-700 and to be honest they're not making anything worthwhile, maybe €100 if they're lucky.
Then scalability is the next challenge. For a full time living anyone with little or no SFP would need to be looking at 50-70 sucklers producing the premium weanlings above, even that's only leaving ~ 70*€300= €21,000 profit and that's a serious amount of work for one man and if you have to hire much labour the profits going to get smaller.
Current suckling operations are highly subsidised with SFP, maybe it will remain and lads can go on producing beef at or below cost price, but major changes to ye SFP will force many lads to change or quit.
Then there is the latest revaluation of the place in Tipp selling cuts of horse as Irish Beef, this could really damage our reputation as a premium beef exporting country. Then what happens to the 90% of Irish beef that's exported. Even a 10-15% drop in exports from a scandal would leave such a national surplus that prices would be seriously effected.

Lads I know f'all about suckling but a neighbour of mine with 160 at least 3/4 bred but mainly full pedigree charolais cows. Finishing everything or some sold as breeding stock. Highly stocked with an extensive roadway and paddock system across his farm. Excellent wintering facilities no animal even on a yard never mind to say outwintered started milking cows in the past month. So go figure

Dunedin

freedominacup wrote: »

Lads I know f'all about suckling but a neighbour of mine with 160 at least 3/4 bred but mainly full pedigree charolais cows. Finishing everything or some sold as breeding stock. Highly stocked with an extensive roadway and paddock system across his farm. Excellent wintering facilities no animal even on a yard never mind to say outwintered started milking cows in the past month. So go figure

I hear what all of yous are saying but I think that to make a living out of farming, you have to be 100% efficient in whatever system you are in.

The vast majority of farmers in my area practise some or all of the following:

1. Cattle held in every year to eat the last of the silage - even if this is until May and the grass is 2 foot high in the fields.

2. Keeping the cattle in until the annual herd test is done - again, even if this is til May

3. continuing to feed meal to store cattle right up until the day they are being turned out


4. no system of paddocks - horse them all into one big field and leave them their for 3 or 4 weeks at times


5. Over stocking resulting in spending fortunes buying fertiliser, taking land, buying feed etc.


6. Letting anythign that resembles a heifer to the bull - no thought to breeding quality replacements

7. Not cutting silage until mid June to improve the 'bulk'

8. Killing cattle in June early July straight off grass and then complaining that they don't kill out well.


I could go on but to me, these are basic school boy errors but the same fellas will always tell you that there is no money in farming:(:(

Timmaay

I've said this before, much more reliable sexed semen is supposedly not far off, so in the future the dairyfarmers will only need to breed about 25% dairy animals (all heifers), and can then produce more beef animals. This will supposedly totally wipe out the suckler trade in Ireland overnight!

freedominacup

Dunedin wrote: »

I hear what all of yous are saying but I think that to make a living out of farming, you have to be 100% efficient in whatever system you are in.

The vast majority of farmers in my area practise some or all of the following:

1. Cattle held in every year to eat the last of the silage - even if this is until May and the grass is 2 foot high in the fields.

2. Keeping the cattle in until the annual herd test is done - again, even if this is til May

3. continuing to feed meal to store cattle right up until the day they are being turned out


4. no system of paddocks - horse them all into one big field and leave them their for 3 or 4 weeks at times


5. Over stocking resulting in spending fortunes buying fertiliser, taking land, buying feed etc.


6. Letting anythign that resembles a heifer to the bull - no thought to breeding quality replacements

7. Not cutting silage until mid June to improve the 'bulk'

8. Killing cattle in June early July straight off grass and then complaining that they don't kill out well.


I could go on but to me, these are basic school boy errors but the same fellas will always tell you that there is no money in farming:(:(

Looking in from the road admitedley the guy I posted about certainly wouldn't be guilty of 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 or 7. To me he looked to have an efficient bsystem with high output and for this country reasonable scale yet he has started milking rather than suckling.

Dunedin

freedominacup wrote: »

Looking in from the road admitedley the guy I posted about certainly wouldn't be guilty of 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 or 7. To me he looked to have an efficient bsystem with high output and for this country reasonable scale yet he has started milking rather than suckling.

there is no doubt about it that Milk is more profitable than suckling.

however, there are extensive start up costs associated with Diary. It is also strictly for full time farmers and not part time with a day job of which the majority of suckler farms fall under.

lastly, it is more labour intensive than suckling with it being a 7 day week job so you have to consider your work-life balance. for the majority of PT sucklers iwth day jobs (i also fall into this category), they have the day job which pays the morgage and puts the food on the table and the farming income is a bonus.

This is not to take away from the question of whether suckling is sustainable but is a good reflection of where Irish farming (dry-stock, suckling, beef,etc.) is in Ireland at the minute.

49801

I'd like to stay in sucking for interest
We're going into contract rearing and the big advantage to us is no more calving cows. We just can't give the attention required to go to 80cows due to full time off farm jobs and young families. I just don't think I'll have the same interest in the black and white stock. We're going to have our day out in Macroom mart on the 9th march:(

For me suckler farming improvements lie's with grass and genetics

1chippy

The main issue i seem to have is cashflow, due to expansion.At the moment i'm carrying 30 extra heifers to set up an autumn calving herd we are onto the last of the spring calvers and as i usually enjoy calving and the rooting the goes along with it the calving issue doesnt present a problem, i know its the ones from here on in that will present the problems, staggerd calvings, mastitis and just stupid issues usually arise now.
Realistically i cant see me moving to a different aspect such as contract rearing or dairy but i have been toying with the idea of maybe starting to finish some of the stock, however i am coming to the issue of more groups on the farm and maybe another lean year or two while i bring some on. At the moment we will have everything from export grade to reasonably good calves on the ground but am half tempted to buy a few cheapish light stores to maybe hold onto and move on all the weanlings at the end of the year.

coolshannagh28

Our profit monitor results in our discussion group made for depressing reading, the most efficient of 20 farmers was spending 5 % of SFP on costs and he would have been in the top 10 % in the country across the scale .
If our climate continues as it is the big continental cow cannot be carried on our land and she and her progeny cost too much to maintain and finish compared to current market prices .
The future is in grass and possibly reverting to smaller more easily maintained and younger finishing traditional type stock .
Still debatable if there is any money to be made even at this as our finished product is not achieving a high enough price primarily because the processing sector is a cartel but also because the subsidies are there to keep food cheap .
.So its a no win situation for farmers ,contract rearing doosnt seem to offer margin either. A young man needs to be looking at milk or cash the asset in and put it in Irish govt bonds like the smart boys

Timmaay

Dunedin wrote: »

however, there are extensive start up costs associated with Diary. It is also strictly for full time farmers and not part time with a day job of which the majority of suckler farms fall under.

I'd bet that the neighbour of freedoms didn't need to spend a fortune to get into the dairying, having the paddock infrastructure/reseeding/housing etc done takes a massive cost out of the equation, parlour and tank for say 100cows can be done for 30/40k (either 2nd hand or new with a 40% grant), disposal of the suckler stock would go a decent way to covering the cost of dairystock.

But so much depends on the attitude of the farmer, if he has no business ambition and doesn't have the head to look at the bigger picture in regards the farm, it doesn't matter if hes beef or dairy he'll be struggling.

Bean_Flicker

Suckler farming will always remain a hobby IMO, only being paid a few times a year, I'm not saying there is no money in it but realistly as a single means of income I don't think it's even possible...

Most suckler farmers are part time, on farm assist or the wife works and puts food on the table.

In saying all that I think the future is bright.

Dunedin

Bean_Flicker wrote: »

Suckler farming will always remain a hobby IMO, only being paid a few times a year, I'm not saying there is no money in it but realistly as a single means of income I don't think it's even possible...

Most suckler farmers are part time, on farm assist or the wife works and puts food on the table.

In saying all that I think the future is bright.

+1

Dunedin

Timmaay wrote: »

I'd bet that the neighbour of freedoms didn't need to spend a fortune to get into the dairying, having the paddock infrastructure/reseeding/housing etc done takes a massive cost out of the equation, parlour and tank for say 100cows can be done for 30/40k (either 2nd hand or new with a 40% grant), disposal of the suckler stock would go a decent way to covering the cost of dairystock.

But so much depends on the attitude of the farmer, if he has no business ambition and doesn't have the head to look at the bigger picture in regards the farm, it doesn't matter if hes beef or dairy he'll be struggling.

Accept this point re Freedom's neighbour but he would be the exception rather than the rule. most suckler farms are pretty basic and would take significant investment to get up to a 100 cow herd - I recall seeing somewhere that the average suckler herd in Ireland is 25 cows (stand to be corrected on that one). Throw in the fact that the average age of farmers (not sure what it is but it's prob on the 50+ side so that to me makes it non-viable to start thinking about diary. Non of the above takes into account that you cannot just change from suckling to diary and be an overnight expert. We supplied milk 20 years ago with 2 milk cans - it's moved on a bit now!!

Poor Farmer in the hills

Having recently done a profit monitor Suckling is making no money even getting 1000 Euro per calf. I am just waiting to see how next single farm payment is going to be set up and will probably revert back to minimum stocking rate to cut costs as much as possible and hold on to my payment. There does not seem to be any point in keeping stock when you cant make any money from them.

simx

Dunedin wrote: »

Accept this point re Freedom's neighbour but he would be the exception rather than the rule. most suckler farms are pretty basic and would take significant investment to get up to a 100 cow herd - I recall seeing somewhere that the average suckler herd in Ireland is 25 cows (stand to be corrected on that one). Throw in the fact that the average age of farmers (not sure what it is but it's prob on the 50+ side so that to me makes it non-viable to start thinking about diary. Non of the above takes into account that you cannot just change from suckling to diary and be an overnight expert. We supplied milk 20 years ago with 2 milk cans - it's moved on a bit now!!

my father gave up milking a few years ago due to health reasons,had 45 cows, i have been toying with the idea of getting back to milking as i am quite young,milking parlour is still there all i would need to but would be a tank,plate cooler,maybe a couple more things but i reckon it wouldnt cost anymore than 15k,secondhand tank etc. ,bit out dated but would do if need be, 45 cows at the time was a small bit over stocked could manage 40 i reckon but with all these lads going to have 100/200 cows in 2015 i wonder would it be viable, hwouldnt take much to set back up paddock system i know it depends on alot of things and theres going to be lads on here saying dont atepmt it, im only toying with the idea, i know its a 7 day a week job, like i said id have a bit more of an advantage over a lad building a new parlour,borrowings etc. ill just wait for the lads to come along and dash my ideas

Timmaay

Ha don't let the 200 cow lads have any influence on ya simx! Trust me many of them could have a hard time making theirown business viable if they let borrowings/repayments spiral. I will admit that 40 cows could be very much so borderline however, even with zero borrowings etc. Before I'd jump back in at it go scope out if there is any neighbours land that you could rent to push this up to the 60/80 mark, which would mean a much more viable business for yourself. The alternative is to buy in feed, your opening yourself up to feed price fluctuations there, and availability of forage etc, but I think its a better alternative than just sticking to the 40cows.

Actually how many acres on that home block, why do you think 45 was overstocked? How much grass did yas grow? The top lads are stocked around the 2.8cows/Ha mark, that should give ya an idea where you stand.

simx

Timmaay wrote: »

Ha don't let the 200 cow lads have any influence on ya simx! Trust me many of them could have a hard time making theirown business viable if they let borrowings/repayments spiral. I will admit that 40 cows could be very much so borderline however, even with zero borrowings etc. Before I'd jump back in at it go scope out if there is any neighbours land that you could rent to push this up to the 60/80 mark, which would mean a much more viable business for yourself. The alternative is to buy in feed, your opening yourself up to feed price fluctuations there, and availability of forage etc, but I think its a better alternative than just sticking to the 40cows.

i couldnt carry any more than that because some of the land is away from house, cant see any neighbouring land coming up as 1 neighbour very hungry, ther neighbours farm rented to their relations and i cant see that changing, anymore neighbouring land coming up if it will at all for many years

farmerman

Timmaay wrote: »

I'd bet that the neighbour of freedoms didn't need to spend a fortune to get into the dairying, having the paddock infrastructure/reseeding/housing etc done takes a massive cost out of the equation, parlour and tank for say 100cows can be done for 30/40k (either 2nd hand or new with a 40% grant), disposal of the suckler stock would go a decent way to covering the cost of dairystock.

But so much depends on the attitude of the farmer, if he has no business ambition and doesn't have the head to look at the bigger picture in regards the farm, it doesn't matter if hes beef or dairy he'll be struggling.

i know for a fact that it would be impossible to buy a tank and a parlour for 100 cows for 30/40k. a new 20 unit parlour will set u back anything up to 150k while a new tank will cost in the region of 20k. thats not to say you need a 20 unit for 100 cows but ya'd want at 12 or 14 unit so that you dont spend half of your day milking.

Bleating Lamb

Have been wondering lately should I exit sucklers,farming parttime with sucklers and sheep...although lambing time is busy you are not tied to winter feeding am and pm which the missus gives out about occasionally.havnt checked exactly but would say in general that most years sheep bring in slightly more than cattle when all costs allowed for.Like a lot of suckler men tho...like the few cows.:)

Dozer1

With the amount of marginal land in the country there will always be a place for suckler farming in my opinion. Yes I can see alot of fellas existing the sector but if we produce a good enough product and don't get summers like last year many will survive.

Not everyone wants to milk cows and all this talk of expansion will come with alot of borrowing as mentioned already.
but again thats just my opinion.

Manoffeeling

With all this talk of expansion, fr x stock look like a better way of producing beef IF you are a part timer or don't live on the farm.

Tipp Man

Manoffeeling wrote: »

With all this talk of expansion, fr x stock look like a better way of producing beef IF you are a part timer or don't live on the farm.

Having a cow (usually massive cows) 365 days a year just to produce and rear a calve for 6 months is the height of inefficiency. couple that with having to pump nuts into the calve and it only exasperates the inefficiency of the system.

This inefficiency is highlighted by the huge number of suckler farmers who aren't making a penny profit - thats not just a coincidence - it tells you that suckling is fundamentally a flawed method of production

Sure it produces great looking stock - but at a huge cost

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

Having a cow (usually massive cows) 365 days a year just to produce and rear a calve for 6 months is the height of inefficiency. couple that with having to pump nuts into the calve and it only exasperates the inefficiency of the system.

This inefficiency is highlighted by the huge number of suckler farmers who aren't making a penny profit - thats not just a coincidence - it tells you that suckling is fundamentally a flawed method of production

Sure it produces great looking stock - but at a huge cost

Agree.

However I believe that a lot of the inefficiency lies with farmer practices as opposed to the practice of suckler farmers itself. Its not long ago since dairy farmers were working off inefficient models and over the last couple of years this has been shored up.

-The national average of calving intervals is 406 days. That means that the average farmer is feeding a suckler cow for 13 1/2 months in order to produce a calf.

- an average 12.5% of suckler cows in the country every year do not have a calf. Yet, the vast majority of these are not culled.

- 90% of suckler farms in the country have no grass management plan. This means no paddocks or divisions. Cows and calves are let out on large blocks of land together with no means for the calves for forward graze fresh grass and ultimately save the amount of creep that they have to be fed. The cows eat the best grass first and then go onto the lower quality grass which means a fall in milk production and a fall in daily weight gain for calves.

- Over 70% of suckler farmers spread the slurry from their tanks after silage has been cut - this gives little or no saving in fertilizer costs and contaminates grass meaning that cows won't eat it for an extended period and calf weight gain suffers.

- Over 80% of suckler farmers do not run a 5 star stock bull or use 5 star ai on their herd. This results with little of no genetic improvement in their herd year on year.

- 95% of suckler farmers do not soil test on a regular basis. Therefore they are spreading fertilizer unnecessarily, wasting fertilizer, and polluting rivers, lakes and streams. Its costing them money too!

85% of silage for suckler farmers is cut in July when it has "bulked" up. Most suckler farmers are uneducated about silage quality and the benefits of feeding better quality silage.

The vast majority of suckler farmers do not target their weinlings towards buyers. Many feed vast amounts of concentrates as creep to weinlings which are not suitable for export and are ulitmately devalued because of overfeeding and a lack of finisher's interest in them.

I don't think we can write off suckler farming as being unprofitable if these inefficiencies are not addressed. We can say "there is no future for some suckler farmers because the systems that they operate are inefficient". But there are suckler farmers out there who are operating a very efficient system and are making a profit. There is no reason why the vast majority of suckler farmers out there cannot reduce their costs and improve the quality of their animals to gain better prices for them. It comes down to:

- wanting to change to increase profit
and
- having to change to improve profit because of reduced financial supports available.

The reason why suckler farming is so inefficient is that teh majority of suckler farmers in this country are over 50 years old with no mortgages or loans. Many of these are above 65. They have other income supports such as spouce's income, SFP and pensions. They don't need to change. They farm as a way of life as opposed to a way of making an income to survive.

This fundamentally flawed method of production that you describe is not suckler farming. It's suckler farmers.

pakalasa

Stating the obvious, but if you don't have suckler farms, you're left with only calves with the dairy industry. These are either pure holstein, holstein x jersey, or easy calving beef crosses. When the milk quotas go and there is an expansion and then milk price drop, maybe dairy guys will start realising the true value in these beef crosses and breed accordingly.

Dunedin

reilig wrote: »

Agree.

However I believe that a lot of the inefficiency lies with farmer practices as opposed to the practice of suckler farmers itself. Its not long ago since dairy farmers were working off inefficient models and over the last couple of years this has been shored up.

-The national average of calving intervals is 406 days. That means that the average farmer is feeding a suckler cow for 13 1/2 months in order to produce a calf.

- an average 12.5% of suckler cows in the country every year do not have a calf. Yet, the vast majority of these are not culled.

- 90% of suckler farms in the country have no grass management plan. This means no paddocks or divisions. Cows and calves are let out on large blocks of land together with no means for the calves for forward graze fresh grass and ultimately save the amount of creep that they have to be fed. The cows eat the best grass first and then go onto the lower quality grass which means a fall in milk production and a fall in daily weight gain for calves.

- Over 70% of suckler farmers spread the slurry from their tanks after silage has been cut - this gives little or no saving in fertilizer costs and contaminates grass meaning that cows won't eat it for an extended period and calf weight gain suffers.

- Over 80% of suckler farmers do not run a 5 star stock bull or use 5 star ai on their herd. This results with little of no genetic improvement in their herd year on year.

- 95% of suckler farmers do not soil test on a regular basis. Therefore they are spreading fertilizer unnecessarily, wasting fertilizer, and polluting rivers, lakes and streams. Its costing them money too!

85% of silage for suckler farmers is cut in July when it has "bulked" up. Most suckler farmers are uneducated about silage quality and the benefits of feeding better quality silage.

The vast majority of suckler farmers do not target their weinlings towards buyers. Many feed vast amounts of concentrates as creep to weinlings which are not suitable for export and are ulitmately devalued because of overfeeding and a lack of finisher's interest in them.

I don't think we can write off suckler farming as being unprofitable if these inefficiencies are not addressed. We can say "there is no future for some suckler farmers because the systems that they operate are inefficient". But there are suckler farmers out there who are operating a very efficient system and are making a profit. There is no reason why the vast majority of suckler farmers out there cannot reduce their costs and improve the quality of their animals to gain better prices for them. It comes down to:

- wanting to change to increase profit
and
- having to change to improve profit because of reduced financial supports available.

The reason why suckler farming is so inefficient is that teh majority of suckler farmers in this country are over 50 years old with no mortgages or loans. Many of these are above 65. They have other income supports such as spouce's income, SFP and pensions. They don't need to change. They farm as a way of life as opposed to a way of making an income to survive.

This fundamentally flawed method of production that you describe is not suckler farming. It's suckler farmers.

this essentially supports what I posted previously. Old school approach needs to change. Personally over the past few years, i have done ok from suckling so i definitely support the theory with the efficiencies in place, that there is a future in suckling.

Manoffeeling

pakalasa wrote: »

Stating the obvious, but if you don't have suckler farms, you're left with only calves with the dairy industry. These are either pure holstein, holstein x jersey, or easy calving beef crosses. When the milk quotas go and there is an expansion and then milk price drop, maybe dairy guys will start realising the true value in these beef crosses and breed accordingly.

The bottom line should be profit. I remember rearing fr calves on buckets a few years ago. If you can keep them healthy and nice grass under them, they are way handier than sucklers. Producing these top quality weanlings isn't as easy as it seems. Cows go great this year but they can be a disaster the next. But that applies to everything I suppose.

reilig

Manoffeeling wrote: »

The bottom line should be profit. I remember rearing fr calves on buckets a few years ago. If you can keep them healthy and nice grass under them, they are way handier than sucklers. Producing these top quality weanlings isn't as easy as it seems. Cows go great this year but they can be a disaster the next. But that applies to everything I suppose.

Can you or anyone else on here give us a breakdown of costs and targeted sales prices with weights which outlines profit for such bucket fed animals? We have seen the breakdown of costs for suckler cows a few times here, but we haven't seen anything for bucket fed calves even though a number of farmers on here keep them. It would be a useful comparison for farmers who are currently trying to make decisions about the future.

Buncha Fives

I would definitely say inefficiencies and a lack of up to date thinking is hampering a lot of suckler farmers.

Breeding is a huge issue which is not given much thought by a lot of farmers, an average stock bull is used on a lot of farms and the cow he is used on may have very little milk...this animal has no chance of producing a good calf. Hence the reason you see animals in the mart regularly 2 years of age and around 400kgs...a complete waste of time and a loss making exercise.

On the otherhand in the discussion group I am part of some of the farmers are excellent in terms of breeding and grassland management. One of the men in the group has plain enough milky cows that he AI's to BB, LM and CH bulls and his calves are outstanding...last year the best of his bull calves made over 1400 at 9-10 months of age and most of cows calved again within 365 days, this man is definitely making good money and he maintains he can improve a lot of areas on his farm still... but for me good breeding and grassland management are critical to the progression of the industry.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Can you or anyone else on here give us a breakdown of costs and targeted sales prices with weights which outlines profit for such bucket fed animals? We have seen the breakdown of costs for suckler cows a few times here, but we haven't seen anything for bucket fed calves even though a number of farmers on here keep them. It would be a useful comparison for farmers who are currently trying to make decisions about the future.

It costs about 550 euro (including purchase cost for a Fr calf) to keep a calve to slaughter at 30 months as a steer.

That's low cost - on Kale - minimal nuts and fertilers used

blue5000

Tipp Man wrote: »

It costs about 550 euro (including purchase cost for a Fr calf) to keep a calve to slaughter at 30 months as a steer.

That's low cost - on Kale - minimal nuts and fertilers used

What sort of carcase weight is that getting into? Anyone doing fr bulls and getting them into 330-350kg at 22 months, what does that cost?

I think there is scope for both the plainer type fr and the quality animal. Maybe the best market for the quality one is live to the uk where they can finish them cheaper than we can?

freedominacup

blue5000 wrote: »

What sort of carcase weight is that getting into? Anyone doing fr bulls and getting them into 330-350kg at 22 months, what does that cost?

I think there is scope for both the plainer type fr and the quality animal. Maybe the best market for the quality one is live to the uk where they can finish them cheaper than we can?

How can they finish them cheaper in the U.K. ?

blue5000

They've a lot more feed by products like beet pulp, brewers grains and even stale bread. We are paying roughly 300 euro a tonne for ration, it just doesn't stack up anymore.

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

They've a lot more feed by products like beet pulp, brewers grains and even stale bread. We are paying roughly 300 euro a tonne for ration, it just doesn't stack up anymore.

Have done a lot of number crunching over the last few years and buying meal for beef animals just does not pay at all

Fertiliser is even hard to justify

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

What sort of carcase weight is that getting into? Anyone doing fr bulls and getting them into 330-350kg at 22 months, what does that cost?

I think there is scope for both the plainer type fr and the quality animal. Maybe the best market for the quality one is live to the uk where they can finish them cheaper than we can?

Steers getting to about 680-700kg liveweight - carcase 360+

blue5000

My brother got out of suckling a few years back. He gave me his creep feeder with the words 'The fooking thing would break you';)

Dunedin

Tipp Man wrote: »

It costs about 550 euro (including purchase cost for a Fr calf) to keep a calve to slaughter at 30 months as a steer.

That's low cost - on Kale - minimal nuts and fertilers used

don't forget to add in insurance, depreciation, fencing, interest on loans, vet bills, casual labour, cake for the wife's birthday, tenner for the neighbours First Communion, etc. etc.


Any time I've seen the figures for the cost of keeping a suckler cow, all and sundry have always been included - need to compare like with like to really see the comparison.


Does any one have the costs of keeping a Suckler handy that they could post here.

Muckit

Tipp Man wrote: »

Steers getting to about 680-700kg liveweight - carcase 360+

Would you clear the €1000 mark in the factory cheque? Doesn't sound a bad system.

I know Reilig and a few more here are die hard suckler fans. And although I agree with all they have said about inefficiencies with the majority of suckler farmers , even the most efficient continental suckler farmer is still going to be a very busy fool (no disrespect). The figures speak for themselves. I'm not going to churn them out again.

As Tippman says, keeping a big heavy framed continental cow to rear one calf, no matter how good, is a very inefficient system. Double or triple suckling perhaps, but then again, it wouldn't be a continental cow I'd have rearing them.

I think the dairy and beef industries need to work more hand in hand. I think the day of the beef suckler farm is gone. Let the dairy lads produce the calves (and they will, because they have to!) and let those interested in beef rear them!! It's a huge headache for parttime suckler farmerswatching for cows and getting them in for AI. A stock bull can be hit and miss and cannot be justified in a lot of cases. Why not leave it to the dairy lads?? They are working full time, the cows walk in to the parlour every day and many are DIY AIing. It makes sense when you think about it!! I do think that the genetic makeup of the dairy cow may have to be less severe towards the milk strain for my concept to work, but overall, it would make for a more efficient overall system. The dairy lad might be producing less milk, but getting more for his calves.


As Timmay said, with greater advancements in genetics, once enough diary replacements are produced, a native beef breed like hereford or angus could be put to the dairy cow. Most lads still have pictures of these animals from years ago, but their genetics have also moved on. Just look at the fine hereford and angus bull specimens at the ploughing or Tullamore. They easily rival the continentals for size and as blue5000 knows, can be finished easier off our cheapest resource - grass!

freedominacup

blue5000 wrote: »

They've a lot more feed by products like beet pulp, brewers grains and even stale bread. We are paying roughly 300 euro a tonne for ration, it just doesn't stack up anymore.

Brewers is freely available here. stale bread can be got, the guy who was on the news last night was feeding sweets all last winter. He buys the bulk of his feed green at harvest and paid around €200/tonne for his wheat last year which would be 70-80% of his ration. He hasn't any huge scale finishing the progeny from his 50 sucklers. There are plenty of options to reduce concentrate costs if you look.

reilig

A fair point Muckit. I'm a diehard if nothing else

I don't see myself as a busy fool. The figures reflect this fairly well and I have a good plan for the future which includes suckling and finishing some of my weinlings to slaughter which in the not too distant future will see me move to part-time off farm employment and beyond that full time on farm employment!

In line with the point that I was trying to make to Tippman in the other thread, I hope that many suckler farmers see this situation in the same way as you do and go in to rearing dairy calves. If they do, I can see a bright future in suckler farming for the rest of us!

I take Tipp Man's point about feeding meal also. Many suckler farmers suffer from "ugly duckling syndrome". They believe that they can turn bad cattle into champions by stuffing them with meal. I made the point earlier in this thread about targeting cattle to sellers. I'll gladly feed €150 worth of meal to a BB bull if I am targeting him to an exporter and expect to get €1200 for him. Meal in this case will pay. But if I have a poor slip of an angus that will be bought by an Irish finisher, why would I bother. It's wasting money.

Muckit wrote: »

Would you clear the €1000 mark in the factory cheque? Doesn't sound a bad system.

I know Reilig and a few more here are die hard suckler fans. And although I agree with all they have said about inefficiencies with the majority of suckler farmers , even the most efficient continental suckler farmer is still going to be a very busy fool (no disrespect). The figures speak for themselves. I'm not going to churn them out again.

As Tippman says, keeping a big heavy framed continental cow to rear one calf, no matter how good, is a very inefficient system. Double or triple suckling perhaps, but then again, it wouldn't be a continental cow I'd have rearing them.

I think the dairy and beef industries need to work more hand in hand. I think the day of the beef suckler farm is gone. Let the dairy lads produce the calves (and they will, because they have to!) and let those interested in beef rear them!! It's a huge headache for parttime suckler farmerswatching for cows and getting them in for AI. A stock bull can be hit and miss and cannot be justified in a lot of cases. Why not leave it to the dairy lads?? They are working full time, the cows walk in to the parlour every day and many are DIY AIing. It makes sense when you think about it!! I do think that the genetic makeup of the dairy cow may have to be less severe towards the milk strain for my concept to work, but overall, it would make for a more efficient overall system. The dairy lad might be producing less milk, but getting more for his calves.


As Timmay said, with greater advancements in genetics, once enough diary replacements are produced, a native beef breed like hereford or angus could be put to the dairy cow. Most lads still have pictures of these animals from years ago, but their genetics have also moved on. Just look at the fine hereford and angus bull specimens at the ploughing or Tullamore. They easily rival the continentals for size and as blue5000 knows, can be finished easier off our cheapest resource - grass!

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

A fair point Muckit. I'm a diehard if nothing else

I don't see myself as a busy fool. The figures reflect this fairly well and I have a good plan for the future which includes suckling and finishing some of my weinlings to slaughter which in the not too distant future will see me move to part-time off farm employment and beyond that full time on farm employment!

In line with the point that I was trying to make to Tippman in the other thread, I hope that many suckler farmers see this situation in the same way as you do and go in to rearing dairy calves. If they do, I can see a bright future in suckler farming for the rest of us!

As far as I'm concerned, the only lads that will remain in fulltime beef/suckler farming will be those that not only rear their own to slaughter, but go the whole hog and sell it themselves also, ie farm shops. I've toyed with the idea, teagasc do a 2day course out of Dublin (coming up this May), but push come to shove I don't think I've the stomach to go butchering carcases! James whelans butchers does a BASIC evening course .... I had to walk out before I hit the floor!!

I also would agree with someone that said that suckler farming is dead in the water once the next generation hands it over. We're a generation with large mortgages strapped to our backs. My parents built our home house with hard cash over a few years. There's no way part time lads with twenty or so cows are going to remain on at suckling, hardship and headaches for little or no money!

Dozer1

Totally agree with Muckit's last point, I would consider myself a rare breed in my area, I went to school with farmers sons and daughters and work with them and only a handful have any interest in land or cattle. Once our parents generation is no longer with us there'll be plenty land for the big dairy lads and eventually they'll get sick of it too as there prices will drop aswell.
I'll stay going as long as I don't put any of my off farm wages or SFP into the running of the farm, if a day comes when I have to supplement the farm with my wages then I'll be pulling the trigger and getting out. that's my decision and I will always remeber fondly the days of my youth when all my neighbours survived on milking between 2 and 20 cows. But that's history and the future I believe will see more alot more foresrty in areas with poorer land and bigger dairy and tillage outfits elsewhere.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, the only lads that will remain in fulltime beef/suckler farming will be those that not only rear their own to slaughter, but go the whole hog and sell it themselves also, ie farm shops. I've toyed with the idea, teagasc do a 2day course out of Dublin (coming up this May), but push come to shove I don't think I've the stomach to go butchering carcases! James whelans butchers does a BASIC evening course .... I had to walk out before I hit the floor!!

I also would agree with someone that said that suckler farming is dead in the water once the next generation hands it over. We're a generation with large mortgages strapped to our backs. My parents built our home house with hard cash over a few years. There's no way part time lads with twenty or so cows are going to remain on at suckling, hardship and headaches for little or no money!

But the costs for rearing a dairy calf go far beyond €550 if you don't live in the Golden Vale. Not everyone can grow Kale. Not everyone has land for outwintering cattle. Costs for housing and alternative feeds would have to be factored in. This pushes that €550 above €800. In this part of the country, it would be a lot more with 6 month winters and the costs associated with that. People have to remember that these animals have to be kept for 2 1/2 years before they are fit to slaughter. Will a FR bull be worth €1600 in the factory at 30 months?

Maybe its just me, but the thought of bucket feeding calves strikes me that it is as much work as calving down sucklers. I had a minimum of €400 clear from most of my weinlings for the last 2 years (50/60). I can turn this over every 12 months as opposed to every 30 months I could not comprehend the amount of work that would be involved with 60 bucket fed calves. I have fairly handy calvings - since I bough the new jack before christmas, I only used it once. Bucket feeding ties a farmer back to that 7 day week, morning and evening job that we used to have when we were milking. It's one of the reasons why we stopped milking. Also, if a lot more farmers go to buying dairy calves, won't they becoem more expensive and leave even less margin for the finisher?

I don't know. For now the figures for finishing FR cattle just don't stack up. If there was more money to be made out of it then a lot more farmer's would be doing it. Why aren't they?

reilig

Here's a question that hasn't been asked before?

What happens if this talked about dairy expansion doesn't happen as planned?
What if a load of lads stop suckling/tillage/finishing start milking in 2015 and the bottom falls out of the milk price?
What if there is a milk scare in ireland just like the various beef scares and we lose some of the proposed markets?

What will happen if it doesn't happen?

Tipp Man

Dunedin wrote: »

don't forget to add in insurance, depreciation, fencing, interest on loans, vet bills, casual labour, cake for the wife's birthday, tenner for the neighbours First Communion, etc. etc.


Any time I've seen the figures for the cost of keeping a suckler cow, all and sundry have always been included - need to compare like with like to really see the comparison.


Does any one have the costs of keeping a Suckler handy that they could post here.

Vetinary in included as it is a direct cost of the system

Loan interest is not as it will vary from farm to farm (and we didn't have any to add)

We included about 30 euro a head to cover miscellanous costs such as fencing, slurry etc Obviously it will vary depending on the number of calves you rear

Tipp Man

Muckit wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, the only lads that will remain in fulltime beef/suckler farming will be those that not only rear their own to slaughter, but go the whole hog and sell it themselves also, ie farm shops. I've toyed with the idea, teagasc do a 2day course out of Dublin (coming up this May), but push come to shove I don't think I've the stomach to go butchering carcases! James whelans butchers does a BASIC evening course .... I had to walk out before I hit the floor!!

!

James Whelan in Clonmel???

rancher

reilig wrote: »

But the costs for rearing a dairy calf go far beyond €550 if you don't live in the Golden Vale. Not everyone can grow Kale. Not everyone has land for outwintering cattle. Costs for housing and alternative feeds would have to be factored in. This pushes that €550 above €800. In this part of the country, it would be a lot more with 6 month winters and the costs associated with that. People have to remember that these animals have to be kept for 2 1/2 years before they are fit to slaughter. Will a FR bull be worth €1600 in the factory at 30 months?

Maybe its just me, but the thought of bucket feeding calves strikes me that it is as much work as calving down sucklers. I had a minimum of €400 clear from most of my weinlings for the last 2 years (50/60). I can turn this over every 12 months as opposed to every 30 months I could not comprehend the amount of work that would be involved with 60 bucket fed calves. I have fairly handy calvings - since I bough the new jack before christmas, I only used it once. Bucket feeding ties a farmer back to that 7 day week, morning and evening job that we used to have when we were milking. It's one of the reasons why we stopped milking. Also, if a lot more farmers go to buying dairy calves, won't they becoem more expensive and leave even less margin for the finisher?

I don't know. For now the figures for finishing FR cattle just don't stack up. If there was more money to be made out of it then a lot more farmer's would be doing it. Why aren't they?

Think you better check your figures, the top suckler farmers doing their profit monitors in 2011 showed a net profit of €305/ha and if you remember 2011 was a peach of a year compared with 2012

reilig

rancher wrote: »

Think you better check your figures, the top suckler farmers doing their profit monitors in 2011 showed a net profit of €305/ha and if you remember 2011 was a peach of a year compared with 2012

???

I never mentioned net profit/ha??????

Gross margin/Ha would be a much better figure to be looking at.