Future in Suckling Farming

1chippy

bob charles wrote: »

I was watching a suckler guy kill his bulls during the week. Serious animals probably just under 24months and 450kgs+ dead. Best were coming in over €2100 back to €1800 prob averaging €1900. Guy is a straight talker and said they were in since August last. To my mind the guy was a busy fool and if he had taking €850 for them as young weanlings in the autumn 2011 he would have had more money in his pocket.

Figures in my head would be

Weanling at 8 months €850
First winter €150
spring summer 2012 €100
6 month finsh €3 a day €540
haulage,vet, interest etc €150

Margin €100 max

Throw in a dead bull €1500 and thing would be very sick. If he had sold the calves in spring 2012 for €1150 he would have being much better off IMV or even selling for €850 in Autumn 2011

I read an article in the journal this week that had a similar breakdown for friesain bulls. if they are the prices being paid and that should have been got, how are all you finishers pulling a profit out of it and what is it that means a suckler farmer cant bring his or her own on to slaughter and still make a few quid.

saranac1

I totally agree with the breakdown there and 100 euro profit is mental, all the labour that goes into it too and that is not accounted for.
There is feck all profit in farming these days but we just seem to soldier on as I do cos I enjoy farming

Juniorhurler

I can't. see myself ever finishing my cattle. At Cathal Creanes farm walk last year he had the figures done at an extra €40 profit per head for finishing his animals over selling as weanlings. The extra labour and housing needed is massive for a ridiculously low return.

blue5000

Hope ppl don't mind me bumping this up. But one year on and wondering what do suckler guys think now?

bbam

We did the sums, and did them again and again, sold the bull and cows !! That was back in 2009, have cleared debts and moved on since..

Better making small margins at something easier, suckler lads are working their asses off and probably carrying the highest risk in the whole chain..for feck all reward !

Muckit

Would have to agree. Did the same in 2011. Bye bye cows. Much easier to go out and buy a few weanlings. The longer lads fail to do their sums the better I still can't get over the amount of silage I can get away with with no cows. They eat a serious amount, well the cows we had did.

Wouldn't go back now, even the oul lad would agree, even though he'd never say it.

Mad4simmental

Everyone noticing all the suckler clearance sales ect at the moment? To be honist and I don't mean it in a bad way but the more that get out of the sucklers and buy wenlings or dairy calves the better it's less compatision for the few of us left at it! I think the suckler mans day is cuming sooner rather than later that's my opinion. The thing is we may have to think outside the box a bit more. I love the sucklers and just would never have the interest in dairy.

Parishlad

Same here. Not the best business reason in the world but have a great grá for sucklers. Although if I had the quantity and quality of land required for dairy then I wonder if I would think the same.

Mad4simmental

Parishlad wrote: »

Same here. Not the best business reason in the world but have a great grá for sucklers. Although if I had the quantity and quality of land required for dairy then I wonder if I would think the same.

Often thought the same but being born and raised on a suckler farm it may be blind love but I couldn't ever see myself at dairy to be honist.

onyerbikepat

Ya, I see alot of suckler clearance sales too. I see it as a good thing, to be honest. There will be less weanlings in the ring, this time next year, so higher prices. Stating the obvious, but if you dont have sucklers, you wont have a beef industry simple as that. Unless you want to go fattening Friesians Holsteins.

Mad4simmental

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Ya, I see alot of suckler clearance sales too. I see it as a good thing, to be honest. There will be less weanlings in the ring, this time next year, so higher prices. Stating the obvious, but if you dont have sucklers, you wont have a beef industry simple as that. Unless you want to go fattening Friesians Holsteins.

And fu#k that, allot of lads going to go down the contract rearing and buying dairy calves to beef or out of sucklers to buying wenlings rought. IMO the most boring type of farming you could do is rare another mans stock. Just me two cent.

jfh

notice a lotta love here for the sucklers, we're the same.
father swears every year to get rid of the lot, i bring him around, but i'm not convincing myself anymore.
nothing wrong with rearing someone else heifers.
no point grumbling about no return from doing something ye love

freedominacup

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Ya, I see alot of suckler clearance sales too. I see it as a good thing, to be honest. There will be less weanlings in the ring, this time next year, so higher prices. Stating the obvious, but if you dont have sucklers, you wont have a beef industry simple as that. Unless you want to go fattening Friesians Holsteins.

Not going to be a problem for much longer pat. Check the whens calving starting thread. A few of the dairy farmers on it have the bones of 30 cows calved in the past couple of days and only around 3 or 4 bull calves between them. The sexed semen trial seems to be spelling the death knell of the HO/Fr bull calf. What will happen to the price of suckled calves when they are competing with much larger numbers of cross bred continental claves from the dairy herd.

Bodacious

freedominacup wrote: »

Not going to be a problem for much longer pat. Check the whens calving starting thread. A few of the dairy farmers on it have the bones of 30 cows calved in the past couple of days and only around 3 or 4 bull calves between them. The sexed semen trial seems to be spelling the death knell of the HO/Fr bull calf. What will happen to the price of suckled calves when they are competing with much larger numbers of cross bred continental claves from the dairy herd.

That is scary alright from a suckler view point

moy83

freedominacup wrote: »

Not going to be a problem for much longer pat. Check the whens calving starting thread. A few of the dairy farmers on it have the bones of 30 cows calved in the past couple of days and only around 3 or 4 bull calves between them. The sexed semen trial seems to be spelling the death knell of the HO/Fr bull calf. What will happen to the price of suckled calves when they are competing with much larger numbers of cross bred continental claves from the dairy herd.

How is the fella you posted about earlier in the thread getting on since he switched over to dairy freedom ?

blue5000

Those hereford and angus x calves from the dairy herd will be fine for the average run of the mill supermarket trade.

But will there be any market for U grade quality stock in future?

Mad4simmental

blue5000 wrote: »

Those hereford and angus x calves from the dairy herd will be fine for the average run of the mill supermarket trade.

But will there be any market for U grade quality stock in future?

You'd like to think there would. Should always atleast be an export for them. Quality at the end of the day should always have a market? What you think?

blue5000

Mad4simmental wrote: »

You'd like to think there would. Should always atleast be an export for them. Quality at the end of the day should always have a market? What you think?

I think we'll have to be buying them calves very cheaply off the dairy farmer and finish them as cheaply as possible when they hit 2+ for fat cover with as much grass as possible. We will all throw them at the factory at 18 months, they can freeze it. If tesco want fresh beef over the winter they'll have to pay us to feed it.

No point in having all our eggs in one basket and be screwed by factories like what is happening this year.

moy83

blue5000 wrote: »

I think we'll have to be buying them calves very cheaply off the dairy farmer and finish them as cheaply as possible when they hit 2+ for fat cover with as much grass as possible. We will all throw them at the factory at 18 months, they can freeze it. If tesco want fresh beef over the winter they'll have to pay us to feed it.

No point in having all our eggs in one basket and be screwed by factories like what is happening this year.

Are you going to buy a few calves blue ?

blue5000

Not yet:pac:

Robson99

blue5000 wrote: »

Those hereford and angus x calves from the dairy herd will be fine for the average run of the mill supermarket trade.

But will there be any market for U grade quality stock in future?

This is where I see a problem. Currently the 6 cent increment in the grid is not enough . Should be at least 10cent. One one hand you have all the advisors in the country telling suckler farmers to produce the best cattle possible and then you have the factories paying you for example an extra €80 for producing a U- contenintal in lieu of an O+ hereford x [ Based on a carcass of 330kg]. Its not paying to be producing / purchasing the top grade cattle IMO

Farmer Pudsey

bbam wrote: »

We did the sums, and did them again and again, sold the bull and cows !! That was back in 2009, have cleared debts and moved on since..

Better making small margins at something easier, suckler lads are working their asses off and probably carrying the highest risk in the whole chain..for feck all reward !

I would not totally agree the biggest risk si carried by winter finishers. Some of these finishers commit to Finishing a full year in advance as they plant crops. At present stock could be costing 900+/head. A misscalulation of 20c/head on purchasse price will cost 60-80/head which ruins profit expectations.

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Everyone noticing all the suckler clearance sales ect at the moment? To be honist and I don't mean it in a bad way but the more that get out of the sucklers and buy wenlings or dairy calves the better it's less compatision for the few of us left at it! I think the suckler mans day is cuming sooner rather than later that's my opinion. The thing is we may have to think outside the box a bit more. I love the sucklers and just would never have the interest in dairy.

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Ya, I see alot of suckler clearance sales too. I see it as a good thing, to be honest. There will be less weanlings in the ring, this time next year, so higher prices. Stating the obvious, but if you dont have sucklers, you wont have a beef industry simple as that. Unless you want to go fattening Friesians Holsteins.

I disagree with max carcass weights heading below 400kgs, a lot of lads should read pages 37/38 of FJ this. the striploins that were ideal were off a 320kg carcasse:eek:. This will end the gra for heavy suckler cattle. The only way that economic return can be made from sucklers is to use there efficiency to carry them to heavy weights. This is not the market requiremernt. The British supermarket trade want cattle killing 280-380kgDW.

Mad4simmental wrote: »

And fu#k that, allot of lads going to go down the contract rearing and buying dairy calves to beef or out of sucklers to buying wenlings rought. IMO the most boring type of farming you could do is rare another mans stock. Just me two cent.

I prefer to be bored and making money rather than being a busy fool.

freedominacup wrote: »

Not going to be a problem for much longer pat. Check the whens calving starting thread. A few of the dairy farmers on it have the bones of 30 cows calved in the past couple of days and only around 3 or 4 bull calves between them. The sexed semen trial seems to be spelling the death knell of the HO/Fr bull calf. What will happen to the price of suckled calves when they are competing with much larger numbers of cross bred continental claves from the dairy herd.

Sexed semen is about 8 years before commercial cattle will be hitting the slaughter lines from it. The competition will not be from Contenintal but rather traditional breeds HE and AA cattle. The struggle will be to get dairy farmers away from easy calving Bulls and to use HE and AA that will bring a calf that has good growth ability. Maybe the sector will have to be encouraged to start using Hybrid bulls like in the States and Canada that will be 3/4AA or HE and 1/4 CH, LM or SI

Base price

Agree with Farmer Pudsey - production be it the initial producer (calves) or the finisher is been dictated by the consumer. It may take a little while for the initial producer to realise that he can make a few extra bob by producing the right calf, one that he/she can sell easily due to the fact that it is in demand by the finisher who after all is supplying the consumers requirements.
How many of ye know of the local butcher shop that has gone out of business due to the fact that the consumer just wants to pop into their local supermarket and pick up two nice sized striploins and drop it into their shopping trolley.
Most consumers want a one stop shop.
Therefore if we want to make money and stay in business then we have to be prepared to adapt to consumer pressures, like it or not.
Having said all of the above, if I could make money out of suckling I would be back into it tomorrow.

onyerbikepat

Figures from below, a *.pdf document.
Source: Teagasc National Farm Survey (2012).

Table 2: Average Cattle Enterprise Output, Costs and Margins
................................Single Suckling ..............Cattle Finishing
Gross Output ha-1...............703 .....................829
Direct Costs ha-1................ 387 ......................469
Overhead Costs ....................388 .......................442
Gross Margin ha-1 ................316 ......................360
Net Margin ha-1 ..................-72 ........................-82
Source: Teagasc National Farm Survey (2012).

moy83

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Figures from below, a *.pdf document.
Source: Teagasc National Farm Survey (2012).

Table 2: Average Cattle Enterprise Output, Costs and Margins
................................Single Suckling ..............Cattle Finishing
Gross Output ha-1...............703 .....................829
Direct Costs ha-1................ 387 ......................469
Overhead Costs ....................388 .......................442
Gross Margin ha-1 ................316 ......................360
Net Margin ha-1 ..................-72 ........................-82
Source: Teagasc National Farm Survey (2012).

Thats not happy reading !

TUBBY

moy83 wrote: »

Thats not happy reading !

and 2012 was a relatively good year.

add in the costs of long winter and poor factory price at back end when cattle were coming fit after being late out and I reckon 2013 all be fairly depressing.

Damo810

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Figures from below, a *.pdf document.
Source: Teagasc National Farm Survey (2012).

Table 2: Average Cattle Enterprise Output, Costs and Margins
................................Single Suckling ..............Cattle Finishing
Gross Output ha-1...............703 .....................829
Direct Costs ha-1................ 387 ......................469
Overhead Costs ....................388 .......................442
Gross Margin ha-1 ................316 ......................360
Net Margin ha-1 ..................-72 ........................-82
Source: Teagasc National Farm Survey (2012).

Not good reading at all, but it would be far more interesting if they done it on a county by county basis. For such a small country we have huge variation, as can been seen by the pictures on here, but if we could see what the top 10-15% are making in each county at least there would be something for each man to aspire to.

Cultie

Basically the majority of individual suckler producers are part time, who don't need to make any money from the enterprise.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but as long as there are farmers prepared to do it for nothing the market will not return enough for the full time farmers.

Imagine if I went along to the local factory and told the owner I would be prepared to do the same job as someone on the floor for half the wage. Factory working would not be very lucrative for general joe public.

Have to face facts as long as people are prepared to do it for nothing then the market will return us all nothing.

Farmer Pudsey

There are lies, damm lies and then come statistics. A lot of fella's get caught up in teagasc figures and I do not believe half this baloney about part time farming being unprofitable, there are part time and full time farmers in drystock, sheep or sucklers that make a profit and there are those that are not.The biggest issue with part time farmers is taking money out tax efficiently.

The issue often is that some full time farmers would be better off working and farming part time. However there is no fortune to be made but part time farming can be a nice earner. I know fellas from different parts of the country that run profitable operations in different systems.

The biggest issue is being profit orientated. The other thing is to ignore the ''this will not work here'' . If something is not making money do the sums and see what will make it profitable. If you are producing calves with an average value of 600 euro and have a five months winter it is impossible to make money from sucklers. At present we are entering a price retrenchment in the beef sector. Too many have bugbears about efficiency when in reality we are traders.

I know my costs for different animals that I keep whether it is winter or summer feeding after that I know how the average animal that I buy will preform. When I go buying if I do not see a profit on his tail someone else can take the loss.

In my opinion producing suckler quality cattle for the Irish market in gerneral is unprofitable, Yes those that export can make a profit when prices are strong but there are over half of the suckler producers that are incapable of making a profit

onyerbikepat

Look those figures posted above are average only. So over half of the farmers are making even a greater loss. What I like about them is they at least have a figure for fixed costs, something the Farmers Journal seem to leave out, time and time again.
And nobody has mentioned that the figures for finishing cattle, show an even greater loss.