Future in Suckling Farming

Buncha Fives

I would definitely say inefficiencies and a lack of up to date thinking is hampering a lot of suckler farmers.

Breeding is a huge issue which is not given much thought by a lot of farmers, an average stock bull is used on a lot of farms and the cow he is used on may have very little milk...this animal has no chance of producing a good calf. Hence the reason you see animals in the mart regularly 2 years of age and around 400kgs...a complete waste of time and a loss making exercise.

On the otherhand in the discussion group I am part of some of the farmers are excellent in terms of breeding and grassland management. One of the men in the group has plain enough milky cows that he AI's to BB, LM and CH bulls and his calves are outstanding...last year the best of his bull calves made over 1400 at 9-10 months of age and most of cows calved again within 365 days, this man is definitely making good money and he maintains he can improve a lot of areas on his farm still... but for me good breeding and grassland management are critical to the progression of the industry.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Can you or anyone else on here give us a breakdown of costs and targeted sales prices with weights which outlines profit for such bucket fed animals? We have seen the breakdown of costs for suckler cows a few times here, but we haven't seen anything for bucket fed calves even though a number of farmers on here keep them. It would be a useful comparison for farmers who are currently trying to make decisions about the future.

It costs about 550 euro (including purchase cost for a Fr calf) to keep a calve to slaughter at 30 months as a steer.

That's low cost - on Kale - minimal nuts and fertilers used

blue5000

Tipp Man wrote: »

It costs about 550 euro (including purchase cost for a Fr calf) to keep a calve to slaughter at 30 months as a steer.

That's low cost - on Kale - minimal nuts and fertilers used

What sort of carcase weight is that getting into? Anyone doing fr bulls and getting them into 330-350kg at 22 months, what does that cost?

I think there is scope for both the plainer type fr and the quality animal. Maybe the best market for the quality one is live to the uk where they can finish them cheaper than we can?

freedominacup

blue5000 wrote: »

What sort of carcase weight is that getting into? Anyone doing fr bulls and getting them into 330-350kg at 22 months, what does that cost?

I think there is scope for both the plainer type fr and the quality animal. Maybe the best market for the quality one is live to the uk where they can finish them cheaper than we can?

How can they finish them cheaper in the U.K. ?

blue5000

They've a lot more feed by products like beet pulp, brewers grains and even stale bread. We are paying roughly 300 euro a tonne for ration, it just doesn't stack up anymore.

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

They've a lot more feed by products like beet pulp, brewers grains and even stale bread. We are paying roughly 300 euro a tonne for ration, it just doesn't stack up anymore.

Have done a lot of number crunching over the last few years and buying meal for beef animals just does not pay at all

Fertiliser is even hard to justify

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

What sort of carcase weight is that getting into? Anyone doing fr bulls and getting them into 330-350kg at 22 months, what does that cost?

I think there is scope for both the plainer type fr and the quality animal. Maybe the best market for the quality one is live to the uk where they can finish them cheaper than we can?

Steers getting to about 680-700kg liveweight - carcase 360+

blue5000

My brother got out of suckling a few years back. He gave me his creep feeder with the words 'The fooking thing would break you';)

Dunedin

Tipp Man wrote: »

It costs about 550 euro (including purchase cost for a Fr calf) to keep a calve to slaughter at 30 months as a steer.

That's low cost - on Kale - minimal nuts and fertilers used

don't forget to add in insurance, depreciation, fencing, interest on loans, vet bills, casual labour, cake for the wife's birthday, tenner for the neighbours First Communion, etc. etc.


Any time I've seen the figures for the cost of keeping a suckler cow, all and sundry have always been included - need to compare like with like to really see the comparison.


Does any one have the costs of keeping a Suckler handy that they could post here.

Muckit

Tipp Man wrote: »

Steers getting to about 680-700kg liveweight - carcase 360+

Would you clear the €1000 mark in the factory cheque? Doesn't sound a bad system.

I know Reilig and a few more here are die hard suckler fans. And although I agree with all they have said about inefficiencies with the majority of suckler farmers , even the most efficient continental suckler farmer is still going to be a very busy fool (no disrespect). The figures speak for themselves. I'm not going to churn them out again.

As Tippman says, keeping a big heavy framed continental cow to rear one calf, no matter how good, is a very inefficient system. Double or triple suckling perhaps, but then again, it wouldn't be a continental cow I'd have rearing them.

I think the dairy and beef industries need to work more hand in hand. I think the day of the beef suckler farm is gone. Let the dairy lads produce the calves (and they will, because they have to!) and let those interested in beef rear them!! It's a huge headache for parttime suckler farmerswatching for cows and getting them in for AI. A stock bull can be hit and miss and cannot be justified in a lot of cases. Why not leave it to the dairy lads?? They are working full time, the cows walk in to the parlour every day and many are DIY AIing. It makes sense when you think about it!! I do think that the genetic makeup of the dairy cow may have to be less severe towards the milk strain for my concept to work, but overall, it would make for a more efficient overall system. The dairy lad might be producing less milk, but getting more for his calves.


As Timmay said, with greater advancements in genetics, once enough diary replacements are produced, a native beef breed like hereford or angus could be put to the dairy cow. Most lads still have pictures of these animals from years ago, but their genetics have also moved on. Just look at the fine hereford and angus bull specimens at the ploughing or Tullamore. They easily rival the continentals for size and as blue5000 knows, can be finished easier off our cheapest resource - grass!

freedominacup

blue5000 wrote: »

They've a lot more feed by products like beet pulp, brewers grains and even stale bread. We are paying roughly 300 euro a tonne for ration, it just doesn't stack up anymore.

Brewers is freely available here. stale bread can be got, the guy who was on the news last night was feeding sweets all last winter. He buys the bulk of his feed green at harvest and paid around €200/tonne for his wheat last year which would be 70-80% of his ration. He hasn't any huge scale finishing the progeny from his 50 sucklers. There are plenty of options to reduce concentrate costs if you look.

reilig

A fair point Muckit. I'm a diehard if nothing else

I don't see myself as a busy fool. The figures reflect this fairly well and I have a good plan for the future which includes suckling and finishing some of my weinlings to slaughter which in the not too distant future will see me move to part-time off farm employment and beyond that full time on farm employment!

In line with the point that I was trying to make to Tippman in the other thread, I hope that many suckler farmers see this situation in the same way as you do and go in to rearing dairy calves. If they do, I can see a bright future in suckler farming for the rest of us!

I take Tipp Man's point about feeding meal also. Many suckler farmers suffer from "ugly duckling syndrome". They believe that they can turn bad cattle into champions by stuffing them with meal. I made the point earlier in this thread about targeting cattle to sellers. I'll gladly feed €150 worth of meal to a BB bull if I am targeting him to an exporter and expect to get €1200 for him. Meal in this case will pay. But if I have a poor slip of an angus that will be bought by an Irish finisher, why would I bother. It's wasting money.

Muckit wrote: »

Would you clear the €1000 mark in the factory cheque? Doesn't sound a bad system.

I know Reilig and a few more here are die hard suckler fans. And although I agree with all they have said about inefficiencies with the majority of suckler farmers , even the most efficient continental suckler farmer is still going to be a very busy fool (no disrespect). The figures speak for themselves. I'm not going to churn them out again.

As Tippman says, keeping a big heavy framed continental cow to rear one calf, no matter how good, is a very inefficient system. Double or triple suckling perhaps, but then again, it wouldn't be a continental cow I'd have rearing them.

I think the dairy and beef industries need to work more hand in hand. I think the day of the beef suckler farm is gone. Let the dairy lads produce the calves (and they will, because they have to!) and let those interested in beef rear them!! It's a huge headache for parttime suckler farmerswatching for cows and getting them in for AI. A stock bull can be hit and miss and cannot be justified in a lot of cases. Why not leave it to the dairy lads?? They are working full time, the cows walk in to the parlour every day and many are DIY AIing. It makes sense when you think about it!! I do think that the genetic makeup of the dairy cow may have to be less severe towards the milk strain for my concept to work, but overall, it would make for a more efficient overall system. The dairy lad might be producing less milk, but getting more for his calves.


As Timmay said, with greater advancements in genetics, once enough diary replacements are produced, a native beef breed like hereford or angus could be put to the dairy cow. Most lads still have pictures of these animals from years ago, but their genetics have also moved on. Just look at the fine hereford and angus bull specimens at the ploughing or Tullamore. They easily rival the continentals for size and as blue5000 knows, can be finished easier off our cheapest resource - grass!

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

A fair point Muckit. I'm a diehard if nothing else

I don't see myself as a busy fool. The figures reflect this fairly well and I have a good plan for the future which includes suckling and finishing some of my weinlings to slaughter which in the not too distant future will see me move to part-time off farm employment and beyond that full time on farm employment!

In line with the point that I was trying to make to Tippman in the other thread, I hope that many suckler farmers see this situation in the same way as you do and go in to rearing dairy calves. If they do, I can see a bright future in suckler farming for the rest of us!

As far as I'm concerned, the only lads that will remain in fulltime beef/suckler farming will be those that not only rear their own to slaughter, but go the whole hog and sell it themselves also, ie farm shops. I've toyed with the idea, teagasc do a 2day course out of Dublin (coming up this May), but push come to shove I don't think I've the stomach to go butchering carcases! James whelans butchers does a BASIC evening course .... I had to walk out before I hit the floor!!

I also would agree with someone that said that suckler farming is dead in the water once the next generation hands it over. We're a generation with large mortgages strapped to our backs. My parents built our home house with hard cash over a few years. There's no way part time lads with twenty or so cows are going to remain on at suckling, hardship and headaches for little or no money!

Dozer1

Totally agree with Muckit's last point, I would consider myself a rare breed in my area, I went to school with farmers sons and daughters and work with them and only a handful have any interest in land or cattle. Once our parents generation is no longer with us there'll be plenty land for the big dairy lads and eventually they'll get sick of it too as there prices will drop aswell.
I'll stay going as long as I don't put any of my off farm wages or SFP into the running of the farm, if a day comes when I have to supplement the farm with my wages then I'll be pulling the trigger and getting out. that's my decision and I will always remeber fondly the days of my youth when all my neighbours survived on milking between 2 and 20 cows. But that's history and the future I believe will see more alot more foresrty in areas with poorer land and bigger dairy and tillage outfits elsewhere.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, the only lads that will remain in fulltime beef/suckler farming will be those that not only rear their own to slaughter, but go the whole hog and sell it themselves also, ie farm shops. I've toyed with the idea, teagasc do a 2day course out of Dublin (coming up this May), but push come to shove I don't think I've the stomach to go butchering carcases! James whelans butchers does a BASIC evening course .... I had to walk out before I hit the floor!!

I also would agree with someone that said that suckler farming is dead in the water once the next generation hands it over. We're a generation with large mortgages strapped to our backs. My parents built our home house with hard cash over a few years. There's no way part time lads with twenty or so cows are going to remain on at suckling, hardship and headaches for little or no money!

But the costs for rearing a dairy calf go far beyond €550 if you don't live in the Golden Vale. Not everyone can grow Kale. Not everyone has land for outwintering cattle. Costs for housing and alternative feeds would have to be factored in. This pushes that €550 above €800. In this part of the country, it would be a lot more with 6 month winters and the costs associated with that. People have to remember that these animals have to be kept for 2 1/2 years before they are fit to slaughter. Will a FR bull be worth €1600 in the factory at 30 months?

Maybe its just me, but the thought of bucket feeding calves strikes me that it is as much work as calving down sucklers. I had a minimum of €400 clear from most of my weinlings for the last 2 years (50/60). I can turn this over every 12 months as opposed to every 30 months I could not comprehend the amount of work that would be involved with 60 bucket fed calves. I have fairly handy calvings - since I bough the new jack before christmas, I only used it once. Bucket feeding ties a farmer back to that 7 day week, morning and evening job that we used to have when we were milking. It's one of the reasons why we stopped milking. Also, if a lot more farmers go to buying dairy calves, won't they becoem more expensive and leave even less margin for the finisher?

I don't know. For now the figures for finishing FR cattle just don't stack up. If there was more money to be made out of it then a lot more farmer's would be doing it. Why aren't they?

reilig

Here's a question that hasn't been asked before?

What happens if this talked about dairy expansion doesn't happen as planned?
What if a load of lads stop suckling/tillage/finishing start milking in 2015 and the bottom falls out of the milk price?
What if there is a milk scare in ireland just like the various beef scares and we lose some of the proposed markets?

What will happen if it doesn't happen?

Tipp Man

Dunedin wrote: »

don't forget to add in insurance, depreciation, fencing, interest on loans, vet bills, casual labour, cake for the wife's birthday, tenner for the neighbours First Communion, etc. etc.


Any time I've seen the figures for the cost of keeping a suckler cow, all and sundry have always been included - need to compare like with like to really see the comparison.


Does any one have the costs of keeping a Suckler handy that they could post here.

Vetinary in included as it is a direct cost of the system

Loan interest is not as it will vary from farm to farm (and we didn't have any to add)

We included about 30 euro a head to cover miscellanous costs such as fencing, slurry etc Obviously it will vary depending on the number of calves you rear

Tipp Man

Muckit wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, the only lads that will remain in fulltime beef/suckler farming will be those that not only rear their own to slaughter, but go the whole hog and sell it themselves also, ie farm shops. I've toyed with the idea, teagasc do a 2day course out of Dublin (coming up this May), but push come to shove I don't think I've the stomach to go butchering carcases! James whelans butchers does a BASIC evening course .... I had to walk out before I hit the floor!!

!

James Whelan in Clonmel???

rancher

reilig wrote: »

But the costs for rearing a dairy calf go far beyond €550 if you don't live in the Golden Vale. Not everyone can grow Kale. Not everyone has land for outwintering cattle. Costs for housing and alternative feeds would have to be factored in. This pushes that €550 above €800. In this part of the country, it would be a lot more with 6 month winters and the costs associated with that. People have to remember that these animals have to be kept for 2 1/2 years before they are fit to slaughter. Will a FR bull be worth €1600 in the factory at 30 months?

Maybe its just me, but the thought of bucket feeding calves strikes me that it is as much work as calving down sucklers. I had a minimum of €400 clear from most of my weinlings for the last 2 years (50/60). I can turn this over every 12 months as opposed to every 30 months I could not comprehend the amount of work that would be involved with 60 bucket fed calves. I have fairly handy calvings - since I bough the new jack before christmas, I only used it once. Bucket feeding ties a farmer back to that 7 day week, morning and evening job that we used to have when we were milking. It's one of the reasons why we stopped milking. Also, if a lot more farmers go to buying dairy calves, won't they becoem more expensive and leave even less margin for the finisher?

I don't know. For now the figures for finishing FR cattle just don't stack up. If there was more money to be made out of it then a lot more farmer's would be doing it. Why aren't they?

Think you better check your figures, the top suckler farmers doing their profit monitors in 2011 showed a net profit of €305/ha and if you remember 2011 was a peach of a year compared with 2012

reilig

rancher wrote: »

Think you better check your figures, the top suckler farmers doing their profit monitors in 2011 showed a net profit of €305/ha and if you remember 2011 was a peach of a year compared with 2012

???

I never mentioned net profit/ha??????

Gross margin/Ha would be a much better figure to be looking at.

Bigbird1

reilig wrote: »

A fair point Muckit. I'm a diehard if nothing else

I don't see myself as a busy fool. The figures reflect this fairly well and I have a good plan for the future which includes suckling and finishing some of my weinlings to slaughter which in the not too distant future will see me move to part-time off farm employment and beyond that full time on farm employment!

In line with the point that I was trying to make to Tippman in the other thread, I hope that many suckler farmers see this situation in the same way as you do and go in to rearing dairy calves. If they do, I can see a bright future in suckler farming for the rest of us!

I take Tipp Man's point about feeding meal also. Many suckler farmers suffer from "ugly duckling syndrome". They believe that they can turn bad cattle into champions by stuffing them with meal. I made the point earlier in this thread about targeting cattle to sellers. I'll gladly feed €150 worth of meal to a BB bull if I am targeting him to an exporter and expect to get €1200 for him. Meal in this case will pay. But if I have a poor slip of an angus that will be bought by an Irish finisher, why would I bother. It's wasting money.

You mention bringing some of your cattle to slaughter,you obviously believe this would leave more money in your pocket,we keep most of our calves on until there 2 years old,it suits our system but i believe producing good quality weanlings selling for over 1000e would be the best way forward,your avoiding the 2 winters involved with the 2 year old store system,now you may be thinking about the bull beef option,which we are also looking into,im just wondering what finishing system you are thinking about,and why you are moving away from selling weanings? We would sell all our weanings if we could carry more cows,Calving is the problem,we just about manage the few we have.

rancher

[QUOTE=reilig;83457658. I had a minimum of €400 clear from most of my weinlings for the last 2 years (50/60).?[/QUOTE]

What does the above mean if not net profit.

Also net profit is your income, which is the only figure that matters in the end, gross margin is only a figure used for comparisons in discussion groups

reilig

rancher wrote: »

What does the above mean if not net profit.

Sale price of weinling minus Cost of keeping a suckler cow + cost of producing the weinling.

pakalasa

This is a real bugbear of mine too. Could someone explain what exactly Gross Profit is? Which costs are included and which are not.
It might help put things in perspective.

The Real Elmer Fudd

pakalasa wrote: »

This is a real bugbear of mine too. Could someone explain what exactly Gross Profit is? Which costs are included and which are not.
It might help put things in perspective.

Sales. X

Value of stock held at start of year. X
+ cost of stock bought in. X
+ feed & fertiliser X
+ vets. X
+ contract work. X
+ conacre. X
___
= cost of stock available for sale. X

- value of stock held at end of year X
___
= cost of stock sold. - X
___
= gross profit. X

Less overheads
Light & heat. X
Repairs & maintenance X
Motor & travel. X
Accountancy. X
Consultancy X
Legal & professional fees. X
Bank charges. X
Loan interest. X
General expenses X
___
- total overheads. X
___
= net profit. X




Not exactly how I laid it before it was posted. Hopefully you can get a grasp of it

But if u want to pm me your email address ill send u a proper lay out of it later

blue5000

Not sure if conacre goes in as a variable cost? The way I learnt it was if an expense could be allocated to one enterprise it was a variable cost, but if it couldn't then it was a fixed cost.

moy83

The Real Elmer Fudd wrote: »

Sales. X

Value of stock held at start of year. X
+ cost of stock bought in. X
+ feed & fertiliser X
+ vets. X
+ contract work. X
+ conacre. X
___
= cost of stock available for sale. X

- value of stock held at end of year X
___
= cost of stock sold. - X
___
= gross profit. X

Less overheads
Light & heat. X
Repairs & maintenance X
Motor & travel. X
Accountancy. X
Consultancy X
Legal & professional fees. X
Bank charges. X
Loan interest. X
General expenses X
___
- total overheads. X
___
= net profit. X




Not exactly how I laid it before it was posted. Hopefully you can get a grasp of it

But if u want to pm me your email address ill send u a proper lay out of it later

Oh Christ my eyes , how can a man make profit if all those costs are taken into account :P

The Real Elmer Fudd

blue5000 wrote: »

Not sure if conacre goes in as a variable cost? The way I learnt it was if an expense could be allocated to one enterprise it was a variable cost, but if it couldn't then it was a fixed cost.

Conacre is a direct cost. I.e. it's directly related to the cost of producing your stock so you would include. Without the land you couldn't have your animals

bob charles

I was watching a suckler guy kill his bulls during the week. Serious animals probably just under 24months and 450kgs+ dead. Best were coming in over €2100 back to €1800 prob averaging €1900. Guy is a straight talker and said they were in since August last. To my mind the guy was a busy fool and if he had taking €850 for them as young weanlings in the autumn 2011 he would have had more money in his pocket.

Figures in my head would be

Weanling at 8 months €850
First winter €150
spring summer 2012 €100
6 month finsh €3 a day €540
haulage,vet, interest etc €150

Margin €100 max

Throw in a dead bull €1500 and thing would be very sick. If he had sold the calves in spring 2012 for €1150 he would have being much better off IMV or even selling for €850 in Autumn 2011

bob charles

I can't see Tippman how you could manage to get a fr bullock to slaughter for €550 for 30 months. Thats a cost of 50c for everyday if you paid €100 for them as calves. Could see how it could be done. Kudo's to you if you can do it. We winter allot of runners on beet tops and even these are costing €0.70 a day when they get a bit of hay with it and other vet costs etc, and I have the tops as good as for free.