Too fussy

clairefontaine

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think what strikes a nerve with the degree thing is that there seems to be an implicit assumption that because someone has a degree that they are intelligent (or at least more intelligent that someone who doesn't). But having a degree doesn't necessarily mean that you are smart or interesting or share some set of universal values, it just means that you finished college. So it seems like a very imperfect 'box' on a checklist.

Not necessarily. It could also mean that person will have better job prospects.

It could also mean avoiding any chip on the shoulder resentments from someone who doesn't have one when you do because there is a built in inequality. A BA is not what it used to be. If this were someone saying they would prefer to be with someone who had a high school diploma or leaving cert, I doubt they would be name called an intellectual snob, yet a BA now is what a HS Diploma/leaving cert used to be.

Mr_Spaceman

Somehow I find the idea of some people possessing, in all seriousness, a 'tick list' for potential partners all rather depressing.

Life is imperfect. People are imperfect. We're never going to get everything we want.

None of us can be all things to all men. Or, indeed, women.

How about just having a relaxed attitude, going with the flow and not being so quick to judge?

jaffacakesyum

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

Somehow I find the idea of some people possessing, in all seriousness, a 'tick list' for potential partners all rather depressing.

Life is imperfect. People are imperfect. We're never going to get everything we want.

None of us can be all things to all men. Or, indeed, women.

How about just having a relaxed attitude, going with the flow and not being so quick to judge?

Thing is, I don't think (or I would hope anyway) that women or men with a 'tick list' are dismissing people they meet in everyday life or go on a date with, when there is clear and obvious chemistry. Say somebody usually would look for a man with a college education (as this has been brought up in this thread) but goes for drinks with a guy, he's drop dead gorgeous, charming, sparks are flying, they have lots in common, he appears to be an intelligent bloke, I doubt the woman is going to never see him again despite obvious mutual attraction just because he doesn't have a college education.

That said, the woman has every right to have a preference for men with college education as it is obviously deemed an important trait to her.

I would be quite fussy and I probably have a checklist in my head about what traits my ideal partner would have. That's not to say if I meet someone and sparks fly, I won't throw that list out the window.

I think you're right, that the best option is to just go with the flow and see. But if someone's a really nice guy and you get on well with him, a fair bit in comon, great sense of humour etc. but through conversation you find out he's on the dole and doesn't plan on finding a job anytime soon, he lives at home with his parents and has no wish to move out soon etc. etc. but he's still a "nice guy", why should a woman "give him a chance and go with the flow" if she is looking for someone with ambition, independence, able to provide for himself etc.?

Some things are important and I don't think women, or men, are being too fussy by having a list of ideal traits. But as I said above, that's not to say that you won't meet someone who you instantly click with despite not ticking all the boxes.

meeeeh

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think what strikes a nerve with the degree thing is that there seems to be an implicit assumption that because someone has a degree that they are intelligent (or at least more intelligent that someone who doesn't). But having a degree doesn't necessarily mean that you are smart or interesting or share some set of universal values, it just means that you finished college. So it seems like a very imperfect 'box' on a checklist.

This. My partners IQ is in 140-150 bracket according to Mensa. He got kicked out of two universities and has no degree. Some of the smartest people I know have problems with the constrains of educational system. On the other hand plenty of idiots manage to get through college.

eviltwin

meeeeh wrote: »

This. My partners IQ is in 140-150 bracket according to Mensa. He got kicked out of two universities and has no degree. Some of the smartest people I know have problems with the constrains of educational system. On the other hand plenty of idiots manage to get through college.

+1

My husband never went to college despite getting all A's in his Leaving. He just wasn't into it. Its a shame to see some people write him off as being dumb because he's the only one in his family who never went.

clairefontaine

meeeeh wrote: »

This. My partners IQ is in 140-150 bracket according to Mensa. He got kicked out of two universities and has no degree. Some of the smartest people I know have problems with the constrains of educational system. On the other hand plenty of idiots manage to get through college.

So do I. But I also know a few men who had major hangups because their girlfriends/wives had higher degrees than they did or more money than they did and they took it out on their other halves.

beks101

I think the degree thing is a background thing. I wouldn't call someone snobby for wanting a similar educational background as they have; it's a preference just like wanting someone with a similar cultural or religious background.

Some people like to date within their peer group, others like to date outside of it, attraction works differently for everyone.

Emme

clairefontaine wrote: »

So do I. But I also know a few men who had major hangups because their girlfriends/wives had higher degrees than they did or more money than they did and they took it out on their other halves.

That indicates deeper problems and if they weren't taking their educational inadequacies out on their partner it would be something else. If they were more secure in themselves having no college qualification wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think it matters if somebody has a degree or not, I have one but I have dated guys who haven't finished school, PhDs and everything in between.

Unfortunately education nowadays doesn't mean somebody is intelligent or informed, it means they're good at conforming to a system which in some cases is akin to brainwashing.

Carlos Orange

beks101 wrote: »

I think the degree thing is a background thing. I wouldn't call someone snobby for wanting a similar educational background as they have; it's a preference just like wanting someone with a similar cultural or religious background.

Some people like to date within their peer group, others like to date outside of it, attraction works differently for everyone.

I find a check list a little strange but to each their own.

Practically speaking I think 50% more females graduate from 3rd level than males.

April O Neill

beks101 wrote: »

I think the degree thing is a background thing. I wouldn't call someone snobby for wanting a similar educational background as they have; it's a preference just like wanting someone with a similar cultural or religious background.

Some people like to date within their peer group, others like to date outside of it, attraction works differently for everyone.

My boyfriend doesn't have a degree, but I still consider him part of my peer group. Any one who thinks a lack of degree indicates a lack of intelligence is misguided. And despite what many people insist, that will be the reason some of them won't consider a degree-less person as a partner. In a way, I think it's more impressive to become a success without the comfort blanket of a degree.

seenitall

April O Neill wrote: »

And despite what many people insist, that will be the reason some of them won't consider a degree-less person as a partner.

As is their right.

eviltwin

seenitall wrote: »

As is their right.

It is. But its very short sighted. If any of my single friends told me they had no interest in anyone without a degree I'd want to shake a bit of sense into them. The more selective you are the smaller your choices are.

seenitall

eviltwin wrote: »

It is. But its very short sighted. If any of my single friends told me they had no interest in anyone without a degree I'd want to shake a bit of sense into them.

I also think it is short-sighted and misguided to think anyone with a degree is any more intelligent than anyone without. I do think most people know at this stage that intelligence has nothing to do with formal education.

As I said, I married a guy who left school at 15, to work and then travel the world, and when I met him he had never had any formal education beyond 15 years of age, which to me seemed extraordinary at that point. But I quickly realised that he was/is one of the most intelligent, well-informed, well-read, clued-in people I'd ever met, a big part of which is why I fell for him. He travelled the world, he follows news daily and he regularly and avidly reads books, novels, blogs, 'The New Scientist' (I'd never even heard of 'The New Scientist' until I met him). Fair play to him, and, as April says, I also feel like it's more impressive for someone like that to have all the knowledge he does, than someone who has had opportunities for advancement handed to them all their lives (for example - but I'm not saying that everyone with a degree has had all the same opportunities either!)

But as for the more selective you are, the smaller your choices, my point is, what of it? A person's criteria are their criteria, their choices theirs to make.

For example, I wouldn't feel comfortable shaking sense into people on boards because I don't have a first clue as to how deep their hankering for someone with a formal education runs, or what's behind it, or any of the rest of their preferences.

Friends are perhaps a bit different because with people you are close to, you generally have a fairly good idea what makes them tick and what kind of issues they face so you can perhaps help them with dealing with themselves more easily. But you know what, I still wouldn't. Perhaps you'll find this wrong of me to say, but I think if a friend of mine wanted a man with a degree and nothing else would do, then fine, I'd be all for that too. I kind of tend to let people be their own navigators and make their own mistakes, even people who are close. Especially as I can never guarantee that the choices I would make for them would turn out better then the ones they would make for themselves - in fact, I always think it has to be the other way around. But like I said, that's just me. (Maybe I think too much.)

fits

I think the college education being preferable as per the OP's list is just a general desire to meet someone with the same experiences and intelligence as herself. I am sure if she met a really smart guy, all else being good it wouldn't matter if he had a degree or not. Unfair to zone in on this I think.

eviltwin

seenitall wrote: »

I also think it is short-sighted and misguided to think anyone with a degree is any more intelligent than anyone without. I do think most people know at this stage that intelligence has nothing to do with formal education.

As I said, I married a guy who left school at 15, to work and then travel the world, and when I met him he had never had any formal education beyond 15 years of age, which to me seemed extraordinary at that point. But I quickly realised that he was/is one of the most intelligent, well-informed, well-read, clued-in people I'd ever met, a big part of which is why I fell for him. He travelled the world, he follows news daily and he regularly and avidly reads books, novels, blogs, 'The New Scientist' (I'd never even heard of 'The New Scientist' until I met him). Fair play to him, and, as April says, I also feel like it's more impressive for someone like that to have all the knowledge he does, than someone who has had opportunities for advancement handed to them all their lives (for example - but I'm not saying that everyone with a degree has had all the same opportunities either!)

But as for the more selective you are, the smaller your choices, my point is, what of it? A person's criteria are their criteria, their choices theirs to make.

For example, I wouldn't feel comfortable shaking sense into people on boards because I don't have a first clue as to how deep their hankering for someone with a formal education runs, or what's behind it, or any of the rest of their preferences.

Friends are perhaps a bit different because with people you are close to, you generally have a fairly good idea what makes them tick and what kind of issues they face so you can perhaps help them with dealing with themselves more easily. But you know what, I still wouldn't. Perhaps you'll find this wrong of me to say, but I think if a friend of mine wanted a man with a degree and nothing else would do, then fine, I'd be all for that too. I kind of tend to let people be their own navigators and make their own mistakes, even people who are close. Especially as I can never guarantee that the choices I would make for them would turn out better then the ones they would make for themselves - in fact, I always think it has to be the other way around. But like I said, that's just me. (Maybe I think too much.)

I'm talking moreso about people I know in RL rather than anyone who posted here. I'm in my mid 30's now and I know people from all walks of life. I would hope my friends who also know those people would have a bit of wisdom and cop now at this stage in their lives not to judge someone as not being good enough because he's either not got a degree or something else and see beyond the window dressing to the person underneath.

Ultimately people have their own criteria and that's okay as it only affects them but its very hard to be the shoulder to cry on for a single friend who wonders why she can't meet the one when she has turned down honest, decent blokes because he didn't go to college or doesn't have his own house by the age of 35.

I would always encourage people to have an open mind. If you can't get past his lack of education or whatever fair enough but why not give it a shot and see how it goes?

IzzyWizzy

valvalen wrote: »

Female, early 30's. After being single for the best part of 4 years, and the pool of eligible men ever-diminishing (settled down/emigrated/players), am beginning to realise that I'm hankering after the unreachable dream!
I'm talking about meeting someone attractive, intelligent, good job, good relationship with friends& family, ect ect. Who's going to tick all these boxes, emotional& practical?
I don't even tick them all myself!
So folks, advice please, have you knowingly comprimised, if so on what?
Regrets, lessons learned?

I don't really get people who have 'criteria'. My only criteria is finding someone I get on well with, who makes me happy and makes me feel good about myself.

I think a lot of people are too fussy and for want of a better phrase, try to punch above their weight. I know a woman who's 34 and single and has a similar list to you, but the thing is that doesn't meet many of the criteria herself. She's quite plain, doesn't have a particularly great job, doesn't have many hobbies, isn't actually that nice, but she expects to marry a lovely, charitable, intelligent guy with loads of money who looks like Brad Pitt. Quite frankly, she's being ridiculous. She expects more than she can offer to someone else. I have to stop myself sometimes from telling her that she's deluded. I have friends who are drop-dead gorgeous and work as models, have good degrees and are lovely people and they aren't as demanding as she is!

seenitall

eviltwin wrote: »

I would always encourage people to have an open mind. If you can't get past his lack of education or whatever fair enough but why not give it a shot and see how it goes?

True. That's a nice and gentle way of 'encouraging' a friend in such a predicament. Then it's up to her.

seenitall

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I don't really get people who have 'criteria'. My only criteria is finding someone I get on well with, who makes me happy and makes me feel good about myself.

I think a lot of people are too fussy and for want of a better phrase, try to punch above their weight. I know a woman who's 34 and single and has a similar list to you, but the thing is that doesn't meet many of the criteria herself. She's quite plain, doesn't have a particularly great job, doesn't have many hobbies, isn't actually that nice, but she expects to marry a lovely, charitable, intelligent guy with loads of money who looks like Brad Pitt. Quite frankly, she's being ridiculous. She expects more than she can offer to someone else. I have to stop myself sometimes from telling her that she's deluded. I have friends who are drop-dead gorgeous and work as models, have good degrees and are lovely people and they aren't as demanding as she is!

Yes, deluded is the word.

I always think that something deeper has to be going on with people like that.

I have a friend who is similar, except she only ever targets men who are either emotionally or factually unavailable to her. She's 43, and she's always been like this, and never in a relationship of any kind due to it. Yet she allegedly wants a relationship.

However, I think no, for whatever reason, she doesn't really want a relationship. Otherwise there would have been one, with an available man, in the 20 or so years I've known her. That's kind of a given to me at this point.

I'd say an excessive fussiness or a deliberate, unswerving delusion regarding realistic chances could very well be in the same ballpark as my friend's case.

Catari Jaguar

To admonish a woman for looking for a person with good job or money is unfair.

Studies show that women will choose men that are successful because they want good genes for their child so that they too will be successful in life and survive. It also ensures that the man can provide for them. This is all instinctive, so no point in arguing it with a modern or feminist perspective.

It doesnt make you a money grabber or shallow, it just shows you are looking for traits that generally equal success in this culture, such as ambition, intelligence, working hard, motivation, being savvy.

Women get accused of being picky, but they have a massive criteria for a suitable mate reproduction. Men on the other hand at base level will go for youth and fertility so on the same level get accused of being shallow. Ah well.

eviltwin

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Studies show that women will choose men that are successful because they want good genes for their child so that they too will be successful in life and survive. It also ensures that the man can provide for them. This is all instinctive

I must have missed the memo on that. Or else my genes must be defective.

I certainly didn't end up with a man who is successful and who can provide for me but I'm no worse off for it

meeeeh

There is nothing wrong in picking somebody who is successful and rich. But I just hope that is not the only criteria. You could pick a successful builder in 2006. Unless the relationship was based on something more, there would be nothing left by 2008.

Catari Jaguar

eviltwin wrote: »

I must have missed the memo on that. Or else my genes must be defective.

I certainly didn't end up with a man who is successful and who can provide for me but I'm no worse off for it

Yea, but would I be right in assuming he's not a useless lay about with no aspirations or skills who can't take care of himself?

Though the way some Irish mammies raise their sons they'd think that's the cream of the crop for us!

April O Neill

seenitall wrote: »

As is their right.

It's also people's right to consider that view snobbish.

April O Neill

OP, it is REALLY important to give a guy a shot before discounting him. I'm a believer in not judging someone on the first impressions. I had so many preconceptions about my boyfriend that I was sooooo wrong about. He quickly won me over. I am so unbelievably glad I got to know him better.

beks101

April O Neill wrote: »

Any one who thinks a lack of degree indicates a lack of intelligence is misguided. And despite what many people insist, that will be the reason some of them won't consider a degree-less person as a partner.

Of course. Which shows a lack of intelligence on their part, somewhat ironically.

Having a degree could mean many things. It could mean you followed what may have been a conventional path in life, went to a few lectures and crammed appropriately the night before the crucial exams for a couple of years.

Or it could mean you worked yourself stupid during Leaving Cert to get the necessary points to go to a college that would put you under financial and social strain, dedicated your life to your studies for a few years and put your mental health at risk to get to where you want to go in life.

I know people on both those ends of the spectrum. I've dated people on both ends of the spectrum. And then my big recent ex wasn't academic at all, but was one of the most copped on, ambitious go-getters I know.

Some people stick with what they know. Some people grew up with education as a big priority in life. Both my parents were professional over-achievers, I grew up in a household where college and a career were not just an option, they were an expectation. It's shaped my life in a big way.

So obviously, I'm going to find education and ensuing career path is a big thing to have in common with someone. But it's not a "term and condition" that I attach to romantic relationships, I don't think many people do that to be honest. None of us are looking for a business partner, we're looking to be understood, respected, intrigued and wanted by someone.

The education thing is just something that may linger in the background as a possible indicator that you may have something in common with someone, just like religious or political views may indicate the same.

Is it unreasonable to have that as an interest, as something that attracts you to someone else because of the shared value it indicates? Each to their own I say.

Call Me Jimmy

seenitall wrote: »

Well I don't understand how judging on the basis of the ability to cook well, or on the basis of having lots of money, or on the basis of the belief in a beardy man in the sky, will help find someone. Yet some people do, and as far as they are concerned they are not limiting themselves, they are just exercising their preferences. Which is their right.

Being able to cook well (and assuming they enjoy it) will have a good effect on a relationship in t hat as a couple you can eat well regularly and enjoy food together.

Money as a criteria means you either want to leech off someone or you don't want someone leeching off you.

Belief of a beardy man in a sky is a common interest and will mean you are more likely to think on the same terms.

A college degree is usually an avenue to a job, unless two people have the same job/degree it won't help in any way to make a relationship better between them than if it weren't present. You'd also both have to really love your same jobs for it to benefit the relationship as well.

Exercising preferences is fine, and of course anyone has the 'right' to do most things but I don't think that needs mentioning when a topic comes up for discussion.

clairefontaine

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Exercising preferences is fine, and of course anyone has the 'right' to do most things but I don't think that needs mentioning when a topic comes up for discussion.

It's not so much that someone has the right to their preferances, this goes without saying.

It's more that no one has the right to try to rewrite someone else's desire's, that to me, is utter obnoxiousness, mothering in its worst form.

seenitall

April O Neill wrote: »

It's also people's right to consider that view snobbish.

People who think other people are snobbish for having preferences for themselves... that's being judgmental. That's what most of my posts on this thread are about.

for yourself too.

April O Neill

seenitall wrote: »

People who think other people are snobbish for having preferences for themselves... that's being judgmental. .

I said it was a right. I didn't say it couldn't be anything else in addition to that.

HTML5!

seenitall wrote: »

People who think other people are snobbish for having preferences for themselves... that's being judgmental. That's what most of my posts on this thread are about.

for yourself too.

A preference such as a physical trait is fine. To disregard someone because of that off the bat is just shallow. This is a fact. And yes they have a right to be shallow.

To not consider someone because they're not studying something you want to is utter stupidity. I wouldn't even dignify that by calling it shallow. Again, the person has every right.

You can dress up your argument any way you want, but it's not conducive to opening up healthy relationships.