Just 1 more trying to go sub 4

Beef

Saturday 11th January
18 miles LSR

Because we're having a party for the missus tonight - tomorrow is a non runner for the LSR and I needed to get this done and dusted early. Up at 8am for a banana and water and out the door at 8:30. It was freezing! Icy stretches in parts made for some difficult navigation - and I head to change my route after 10 miles as I couldn't cross the bridge in Kilsheelan (I nearly broke my neck trying ).

The miles were ticking along grand and I didn't bother with water or gels. Last year I wouldn't have dreamed of doing a run over 16 miles without gels but tbh I don't like them. I'll probably take a few with me for Manchester but for training they're more hassle than they're worth. For the last few miles I was alternating the pace and increasing/decreasing the intensity to mix things up a bit. I really enjoyed it today and comparing this run to the last miserable 16 miler is like night and day. I finally got home and went to head in the door when I realised I was locked out.

I couldn't sit on the doorstep dripping in sweat in the freezing cold so I had to jog up to my parents house to use the facilities. Another mile to do!

18.8 miles @ 9:09 pace. 2:52:11 on my feet.

Now to organise the party food and prepare my liver.

AuldManKing

nice work - solid time on feet.

Beef

Sunday 12th
Hungover + Wife's birthday - nothing.

Monday 13th
6 miles @ 8:30 pace. Legs felt fresh after taking Sunday off and I fancied something a little bit quicker than the usual easy pace. Just for a bit of variety.

Tuesday 14th
4 miles @ 8:50 pace (incl 8 X 100m strides).

I've been neglecting the strides the last couple of weeks, I completely forgot!
They felt great tonight to shake up the easy run.

The plan calls for 2 X 4miles at MP tomorrow evening. Looking forward to that one - I love the sessions and the variety of them in this plan.

Beef

Ok, Meno is going to give out to me for this one - but here goes...

Wednesday 15/01
Plan = 10-12 miles with 2 X 4 miles @ MP (8:35 pace)
Act. = 11.44 miles with 1 X 4 miles @ MP & 1 X 4 miles @ HMP

1:45 miles warmup @ 9:21mpm
4 miles @ 8:22 pace
.65 miles @ 9:48 recovery pace
4 miles @ 7:50 pace

I know, I know, I'm looking for trouble. But I'll do a recovery tomorrow and take Friday off before the LSR on Saturday.

menoscemo

Beef wrote: »

Ok, Meno is going to give out to me for this one - but here goes...

Wednesday 15/01
Plan = 10-12 miles with 2 X 4 miles @ MP (8:35 pace)
Act. = 11.44 miles with 1 X 4 miles @ MP & 1 X 4 miles @ HMP

1:45 miles warmup @ 9:21mpm
4 miles @ 8:22 pace
.65 miles @ 9:48 recovery pace
4 miles @ 7:50 pace

I know, I know, I'm looking for trouble. But I'll do a recovery tomorrow and take Friday off before the LSR on Saturday.

Haha, maybe your Marathon pace is faster than you think? TBH I had forgotten your Marathon goal and thought you were targetting sub 3:30 based on your recent easy/LSR paces....

Beef

menoscemo wrote: »

Haha, maybe your Marathon pace is faster than you think? TBH I had forgotten your Marathon goal and thought you were targetting sub 3:30 based on your recent easy/LSR paces....

Current target is sub 3:45 so I'm probably doing things too fast in training alright...?

To be honest after Cork last year I'm terrified of setting an overly aggressive marathon goal - so 3:45 seems 'safe'. I need to do another half in a couple of months to see where I stand I feel. Current Half time (set in December) is 1:43:XX.

What do you think?

menoscemo

Beef wrote: »

Current target is sub 3:45 so I'm probably doing things too fast in training alright...?

To be honest after Cork last year I'm terrified of setting an overly aggressive marathon goal - so 3:45 seems 'safe'. I need to do another half in a couple of months to see where I stand I feel. Current Half time (set in December) is 1:43:XX.

What do you think?

When do you plan on doing the half?
You shouldn't do it any less than 6 weeks out so the first week in March should be the cut off for a half. If you want you could also do one of the Cork 10 mile races? they would give you pretty much the same feedback I think. Which races are you looking at?

Yes I noticed your paces a bit fast for a 3:45 goal. Red Runner has the same goal and I told him to keep all easy runs at 9:30/mile+ and recoveries at 10 min/mile+. Long Runs should be the same as easy (unless there are PMP miles in them).
I reckon you might be selling yourself short at 3:45 though, however if you are determined to target 3:45 I would stick to the above. If you later decide to try for a bit faster than 3:45 don't worry that the slow pace of your easy runs will affect this (they won't). If you don't believe me check out c_m's log...

Beef

There's an apparently tough half, in the middle of February in Kilkenny (Mount Juliet) that I was thinking of. It's 7 weeks out from the marathon. I'm not signed up for Ballycotton (I refuse to get caught up in that scramble for a race) and the Mallow 10 miler is at the end of March I think?

Regarding pace - I'm not feeling under pressure doing the easy miles at the pace I'm doing them at so it suits me as it is. They also tend to change depending on how I feel on the night.
Tonight, I defo knew I was working harder than marathon pace for the 2nd part of the session (in fact I knew I was running near HMP by feel). But I want the weekly session to feel tough and feel good afterwards as a result. I'm certainly not wed to 3:45, I'd bloody love to go quicker, but my lasting memory of Cork is feeling horrendous and not enjoying it. There were mitigating factors of course (the heat/an injury/no sleep) but it leaves me wary just the same... In saying that - comparing my mileage prior to starting this training cycle to the 'training' I was doing before starting Hal Higdon Novice 2 and it's a completely different ball game.

Thanks for the advice btw.

menoscemo

Beef wrote: »

There's an apparently tough half, in the middle of February in Kilkenny (Mount Juliet) that I was thinking of. It's 7 weeks out from the marathon. I'm not signed up for Ballycotton (I refuse to get caught up in that scramble for a race) and the Mallow 10 miler is at the end of March I think?

Regarding pace - I'm not feeling under pressure doing the easy miles at the pace I'm doing them at so it suits me as it is. They also tend to change depending on how I feel on the night.
Tonight, I defo knew I was working harder than marathon pace for the 2nd part of the session (in fact I knew I was running near HMP by feel). But I want the weekly session to feel tough and feel good afterwards as a result. I'm certainly not wed to 3:45, I'd bloody love to go quicker, but my lasting memory of Cork is feeling horrendous and not enjoying it. There were mitigating factors of course (the heat/an injury/no sleep) but it leaves me wary just the same... In saying that - comparing my mileage prior to starting this training cycle to the 'training' I was doing before starting Hal Higdon Novice 2 and it's a completely different ball game.

Thanks for the advice btw.

I don't see the point of doing a 'tough' half when your goal Marathon is flat tbh. The only real justification of doing a half in a marathon programme is to give you an indicator of fitness and possible target pace and a tough half will do neither. It will likely leave you very tired and with more doubts about your fitness and goal than before the race!!

I think Mallow might be a bit late for you too tbh. Maybe a 10k 2-3 weeks out would be ok but a 10 miler 3 weeks out is a bit much (remember a race 10 miler requires 10 days recovery!!)

What you ideally need is a relatively flat 10 miler or half marathon between 6-10 weeks from your marathon.

Regards pace: I think you should take more notice of the advice. You might feel ok now but it could break you in the long run. Look around the logs of the better runners around here: you will find no-one does their easy runs anywhere close to Marathon pace. If you say that 7:50/mile felt like HMP there really is no valid reason for you doing easy runs anywhere inside 9 min/mile. If you find the easy pace too easy I would consider adding more easy miles to the schedule. An extra 5 very easy mile per week will help you more than doing some of the easy runs at a semi-steady pace.

Sorry to sound all negative and/or bossy btw, nothing personal I just think all the above is solid advice...

tomred1N

Just follow the bloody plan beef or you'll end up running 70 miles a week EASY and entering ultra marathons !!

Beef

Thanks lads, I'll take the easy runs a bit handier so. I must start wearing the HR monitor again and get my max HR to give me a bit of a guide. I think I'm just impatient and want to get quicker now.

I was sort of basing my training times on those given in McMillans calculator for training paces, based on a 3:45 marathon time:

Easy run: 8:17 - 9:18
Long run: 8:22 - 9:38
Recv run: 9:24 - 10:08

These are the paces I used in training for the half in December, so at least you can see where I was coming from to some degree?

menoscemo

Beef wrote: »

Thanks lads, I'll take the easy runs a bit handier so. I must start wearing the HR monitor again and get my max HR to give me a bit of a guide. I think I'm just impatient and want to get quicker now.

I was sort of basing my training times on those given in McMillans calculator for training paces, based on a 3:45 marathon time:

Easy run: 8:17 - 9:18
Long run: 8:22 - 9:38
Recv run: 9:24 - 10:08

These are the paces I used in training for the half in December, so at least you can see where I was coming from to some degree?

That seems odd, Mcmillan gives your top end easy pace as faster than goal marathon pace? I wouldn't agree with that at all to be honest...

Edit: Jack Daniels http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm calculates easy pace as 9:59/mile based on a 3:44:59 Marathon goal. Based on a 1;43 half he says easy pace is 9:37/mile.
There is definitely something wrong with McMillan (the site has gone a bit funny since it recently). Remember also that P&D say that Easy pace should be 10-20% slower than MP. That would leave your range at 9:20 - 10:10/Mile based on your Marathon goal.

There is plenty of hard, MP and steady running in the program, best leave your best efforts for them. Remember easy running is all about recovery, aerobic base and being primed for the next session. The program is all about progression. Don't try to do too much too soon, the program will get ahrder and you will need to be ready for it when it does.

Beef

No it definitely makes sense to slow things down a bit. Feckin McMillan leading me astray!

You're right though, there probably is an element of me getting ahead of myself also - and I need to reign it in a wee bit before I do damage. On my best behaviour for a recovery tonight.

RedRunner

FWIW Beef, I've found some benefit in slowing the easy runs down and I did find it very hard at the beginning but getting used to it now.

menoscemo

RedRunner wrote: »

FWIW Beef, I've found some benefit in slowing the easy runs down and I did find it very hard at the beginning but getting used to it now.

The new running Aulmanking

Beef

3 miles @ 10:20 recovery run.

Steroo

Beef wrote: »

3 miles @ 10:20 recovery run.

Jesus beef you'd want to speed up a bit

Only joking, great progress here

Beef

Haha - I can't win!

How are you getting on yourself? Still tipping away?

Steroo

Beef wrote: »

Haha - I can't win!

How are you getting on yourself? Still tipping away?

Just stirring! Just try hold your load til the big day.. Patience!

Me still struggling.. No answers or solutions really ;(

Beef

Jesus it's been dragging on for a long while now Stephen.

Have you had any scans or anything done? I know my dad had a lot of trouble with his back (and had 2 hips replaced also) - but the reasons for a large part of his pain and mobility issues were discovered after a scan revealed a ruptured disc.

menoscemo

Funny how every so often a great thread gets bumped in the main forum which is probably better at explaining what I have been trying to explain. Have a read through this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88504212#post88504212

Pay particular attention to Tergat's post#13 where he speaks about how running your easy runs 'moderately fast' can jeopardise your key workouts and your racing.
The whole thread in general was a real eye opener to myself and other a few years back...

Steroo

Beef wrote: »

Jesus it's been dragging on for a long while now Stephen.

Have you had any scans or anything done? I know my dad had a lot of trouble with his back (and had 2 hips replaced also) - but the reasons for a large part of his pain and mobility issues were discovered after a scan revealed a ruptured disc.

Yea it's probably next on the cards!

Beef

menoscemo wrote: »

Funny how every so often a great thread gets bumped in the main forum which is probably better at explaining what I have been trying to explain. Have a read through this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88504212#post88504212

Pay particular attention to Tergat's post#13 where he speaks about how running your easy runs 'moderately fast' can jeopardise your key workouts and your racing.
The whole thread in general was a real eye opener to myself and other a few years back...

That's a brilliant read - thanks. It makes a lot of sense and I've been reading through a lot of tergat's posts and there is a common theme alright. "Patience and consistency". That right there is my problem, I'm trying to do too much too soon I reckon. I think he might have been the actual Paul Tergat.

Back to the training and f*ck it I'm going for a pint tonight. The long run can wait till Sunday morning. A few 'easy' miles tomorrow and the long run Sunday should take me towards 48/50 miles for the week.

menoscemo

Beef wrote: »

That's a brilliant read - thanks. It makes a lot of sense and I've been reading through a lot of tergat's posts and there is a common theme alright. "Patience and consistency". That right there is my problem, I'm trying to do too much too soon I reckon. I think he might have been the actual Paul Tergat.

Back to the training and f*ck it I'm going for a pint tonight. The long run can wait till Sunday morning. A few 'easy' miles tomorrow and the long run Sunday should take me towards 48/50 miles for the week.

I envy you
I'm off the booze for a month myself. Seriously regretting it at this stage. I said to myself that not drinking would make me less cranky, improve sleep, training etc :rolleyes:
It feels like it is having no positive benefits. Can't wait for the month to end

career_move

menoscemo wrote: »

I envy you
I'm off the booze for a month myself. Seriously regretting it at this stage, I said to myself that not drinking would make me less cranky, improve sleep, training etc :rolleyes:. It feels like it has having no positive benefits. Can't wait for the month to end

It hasn't done anything for your grammar anyway :P

Beef

menoscemo wrote: »

I envy you
I'm off the booze for a month myself. Seriously regretting it at this stage. I said to myself that not drinking would make me less cranky, improve sleep, training etc :rolleyes:
It feels like it is having no positive benefits. Can't wait for the month to end

I'll be going off it in March (except maybe the 17th ) so I'm not going to give it up for 2 full months of the year. That would be just madness!

I gave it up totally for May last year for the Cork marathon and I think I would have been better off drinking the way things went.

Beef

Saturday 18th Jan
5 miles very easy - 9:50

Lovely evening for a run today - 5 uneventful miles more in the locker. Took it easy after the pints last night.

18 miles tomorrow so I'll need to be better behaved tonight. Hopefully I won't come home and be locked out like last wk.

Beef

Sunday 19-Jan

18 mile LSR @ 9:36 pace

Pretty uneventful this one - but was defo getting very tired towards the end of it. Highest mileage week ever with 47.5 miles clocked up so it's to be expected.

Monday 20th
3.8 miles very easy @ 9:48 pace

A horrible turd of a day in work - 12 hours of utter misery in front of the laptop today and I managed to make a bollox of more things than I sorted. Managed to get out for 3.8 miles but haven't seen the young lad since yesterday. A day to forget all round. :mad:

Beef

Monday's horror of a day was a taster of things to come unfortunately. The whole week was an utter disaster work wise so trying to fit in my runs was a major effort.

Tuesday 6.6 miles easy @ 9:17 pace
I've been trying to look at the watch less and run on feel. This felt grand and easy and I was surprised when I looked at the watch and it displayed quicker than the planned ~9:30 pace.

Wednesday - no run
Bloody work - 13 hour day so by the time I got home I was starving and in no form for a session. Excuses, excuses. :rolleyes:

Thursday - session
1.something miles warm up @ 9:32 pace.
Alternating miles at MP +- 30 seconds

8:54,7:59,8:50,7:44,8:53,7:59,9:05,7:35

1 mile cool down @ 10:22 pace

This felt good and I picked up the pace nicely for the last mile. It was downhill so not much of a change in effort. Was delighted to get out and run after missing Wednesday.

Friday - no running
Bloody work again. I had barely seen the young lad at all during the week and we always head off for a spin after work on a Friday. I was late getting home again though - so he waited up for me to go for the spin. It was Friday after all Didn't care about missing Fridays run - some things are more important.

Saturday - 5 miles steady 8:48 pace
Only had to work for a little while yesterday so was delighted to get back out.

Sunday 20 miles @ 9:31 pace
What a day to be running. Got some seriously funny looks while being battered with hail and torrential rain. Had a hurricane at my back for a good 12 miles so those miles got a bit faster. I burst out laughing a couple of times as the wind took me by surprise and blew me down the road. Maybe that's the reason for the funny looks. I also nearly left my marathon on the road as I slipped on fallen debris and rolled my ankle quite badly. Luckily I seemed to get away with it, it scared the crap out of me though. Tomorrow morning will reveal how that is.

Disappointed to miss a run this week, as it means I didn't break past 50 which was the target.
Weekly total: 46 miles
Month total: 161.83 miles.

Lot's of people in these parts were running races today. Horrible day for it but hope ye hit your times.

Beef

No running tonight - some soreness in spots including my right soleus and above my left knee. Icing/stretching and foam rolling. Maybe I should have gone for a recovery run but I'll see how it is tomorrow. This is a step back week in any case so I won't panic just yet.