Just 1 more trying to go sub 4

Beef

Hi all,

Said I'd start a log to get some feedback on the training I'm doing for the Cork marathon in June and keep me motivated. I defo think I need it! Been running on and off for a few years so have done some half's / 10k's etc. - so I finally said I'd bite the bullet and sign up for a full.

Most recent race was Dungarvan 10 mile which I did in 1:20:18 going by my watch. Based on McMillan, sub4 should be an achievable time based on this?

I'm following Hal Higdon novice 2 plan - and I'm on week 5. I'm a bit ahead of myself in order to leave leeway for potential sickness or a missed long run between now and then. Hopefully this won't happen and I can just repeat a week.

One thing I'm worried about is my training pace. I think I'm doing things too quickly for the goal time. Long runs so far are at 08:40 ish pace and anything up to 6 miles is done between 07:35-08:00 mins per mile. Having read the start of last years DCM mentored novices - I'm doing things too quickly and will probably get injured?

Thanks!
Beef.

blockic

Good luck Beef.

Reading the Novice thread will be of great benefit.

Just to compare, I ran DCM in 3:29 in October. All my LSRs were between 9:00-9:20m/miles and my lesser mileage runs were between 8:20 and 9m/miles.

So it looks like you need to slow them up slightly alright. Is sub 4 a bit too soft? I would think 3:45 - 3:50 would be a realistic target?

How many HM have you done? and times?

Beef

Thanks blockic. I'm very nervous about aiming too quick for my first marathon...

I've done a couple of half's in 2012 - the others were a couple of years ago so probably not as relevent (previous pb was 1:56:XX).

Clonmel half
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/234193092 - 1:50:58

Charleville half
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/234192927 - 1:51:04

Worth noting I was very unhappy with Charleville, probably went out too fast and then blew up. I seem to run better when I start out slower and gradually pick it up. I did do some track work and quicker runs in Oct/Nov in preparation for the Waterford half, but then stupid work got in the way and I couldn't do the race.

After that I got married and have only been back running since the end of January (a few dreadmill sessions on honeymoon that don't count ).

RunningKing

Beef, listen to Blocky, he knows all about soft Marathon targets :-)

scriba

Hi Beef, best of luck with the log. I've very similar 10 mile/HM times to yourself, and I'm training for a 3:45 in Cork at the moment (though I'll take sub 4!)

blockic

Beef wrote: »

Thanks blockic. I'm very nervous about aiming too quick for my first marathon...

Beef, I of all people completely understand this! As you can see below:) I take the conservative approach to my marathons too and I completely agree that you should take the first marathon handy and just enjoy it!

The only reason I mentioned the 3:45 is that your times in races show that that is a time well achievable for you.....and I know by saying that I myself don't practice what I preach!:D

Anyway best of luck and enjoy your sub 4 as if training goes well I have no doubt you will be celebrating blitzing that time come June.

RunningKing wrote: »

Beef, listen to Blocky, he knows all about soft Marathon targets :-)

Haha, you were delighted with that one id say! I wish I had a middle finger emoticon right about now!:D

ncmc

Congrats on your marriage Beef! I'm planning to run Cork too, so maybe I'll see you there.

I ran DCM last year as my first marathon and like you was aiming for a sub 4 and was following the HH2 plan. I only did one 1/2 marathon - Clonmel - in 1:48 and ended up finishing DCM in 3:57.

Your long runs should be 30-60 seconds slower than your planned marathon pace, so you should be slowing those down to 9:30 or thereabouts. You should run a 20 mile lsr at the same pace as a 10 mile one, so slowing the pace now will benefit you as the training plan gets tougher. I know it's counter intuitive to run slower than your planned race pace, but it does teach the body to burn fat as well as glycogen.

As the plan progresses, you will be including some pmp runs, it's probably no harm to add in a few pmp miles into your lsr too.

Do you have any races planned between now and Cork? As Blockic said, 4 hours could be a soft target, but a 1/2 or 10 mile race will give you a more accurate idea.

I'd agree that it's better to err on the side if caution for your first marathon and really enjoy it than push too hard and maybe end up blowing out at mile 20. I probably could have pushed myself a bit harder, but I really enjoyed the whole experience and have no regrets on that score. There'll be plenty of subsequent marathons to blast your first time!

Beef

Thanks folks, great advice here already. To be honest I think I'm going to stick with a target of 3:55-4hrs for the moment. I'm hoping to enjoy this first marathon as much as I can and I think that if I do - it will spur me on to better (more painful ) things thereafter.

So tonight the plan said to do 6 miles and I did them at PMP. After work, I really didn't want to go out in that wind/rain but was glad I did when I settled down after it to watch the football.

6 miles in 53:54 (8:59/mile)

I know I'm getting waaaay ahead of myself here (I could be crying off after week 12 of this plan) but would Dublin be too soon after Cork for an inexperienced marathoner to try and do an improved marathon time?

RubyK

Best of luck with your training and goals. Def think you'll smash the 4hr mark, I'd say you'll go under 3.45, based on your training times. But, most importantly, do enjoy your 1st mara

Beef wrote: »

I know I'm getting waaaay ahead of myself here (I could be crying off after week 12 of this plan) but would Dublin be too soon after Cork for an inexperienced marathoner to try and do an improved marathon time?

Definitely not, you'll have plenty of time to recover after Cork, before Dublin training starts (4-6 weeks, depending on what plan you go for).

ncmc

I think you’d be ok to do Dublin after Cork. By my count it’s 21 weeks, so what I would do is take the week off after Cork, 3-4 weeks of a recovery plan, followed by a 15-16 week plan (you won’t need to do a full 18 week programme as you will be coming from a stronger base). However, I would say don’t underestimate how much the marathon takes out of you, run Cork, enjoy it and then see how you feel after that.

One more piece of advice that I wish I had taken last year – recovery runs are really, really important. A recovery run is a very slow, short run done the day after a difficult session (e.g. a PMP run or a LSR). It is more beneficial to your body than a rest day IMHO. It gets the blood going to your muscles, thus aiding recovery, but is done gently enough that it doesn’t damage your muscles when they are at their most vunerable. They have to be done sloooooooooooooow though! You should be doing them a couple of minutes slower than your PMP. Even the speedy feckers on here do their recovery runs slow! Also, it should be no more than 3-4 miles. The idea is to get the blood moving, not damage your muscles further.

So my two top pieces of advice to any ‘would be’ marathon runner would be, run your long runs slow and do a recovery run after a tough session.

Gavlor

RunningKing wrote: »

Beef, listen to Blocky, he knows all about soft Marathon targets :-)

Haha, love it!!

Ososlo

ncmc wrote: »

I think you’d be ok to do Dublin after Cork. By my count it’s 21 weeks, so what I would do is take the week off after Cork, 3-4 weeks of a recovery plan, followed by a 15-16 week plan (you won’t need to do a full 18 week programme as you will be coming from a stronger base). However, I would say don’t underestimate how much the marathon takes out of you, run Cork, enjoy it and then see how you feel after that.

One more piece of advice that I wish I had taken last year – recovery runs are really, really important. A recovery run is a very slow, short run done the day after a difficult session (e.g. a PMP run or a LSR). It is more beneficial to your body than a rest day IMHO. It gets the blood going to your muscles, thus aiding recovery, but is done gently enough that it doesn’t damage your muscles when they are at their most vunerable. They have to be done sloooooooooooooow though! You should be doing them a couple of minutes slower than your PMP. Even the speedy feckers on here do their recovery runs slow! Also, it should be no more than 3-4 miles. The idea is to get the blood moving, not damage your muscles further.

So my two top pieces of advice to any ‘would be’ marathon runner would be, run your long runs slow and do a recovery run after a tough session.

Great advice! Ever thought of yourself as a possible mentor for us Novices for DCM this year? Sounds like you're exactly what we might need;)
Good luck OP with your endeavour for the marathon. Same as mine but you're a bit ahead of me with your times for your sub 4 goal. No bother to you I'd imagine but I suppose nobody can really tell what it's going to be like until you've done one:)

ncmc

Ososlo wrote: »

Great advice! Ever thought of yourself as a possible mentor for us Novices for DCM this year? Sounds like you're exactly what we might need;)
Good luck OP with your endeavour for the marathon. Same as mine but you're a bit ahead of me with your times for your sub 4 goal. No bother to you I'd imagine but I suppose nobody can really tell what it's going to be like until you've done one:)

That position has been filled I believe, but don't worry, I'll be popping in to offer my sage advice.... for a reasonable fee of course

Gavlor

2 pages in and nobody has mentioned a foam roller, shame on you ncmc

To avoid niggly injuries, anybody that's considering running a marathon should invest in a foam roller. You'll pick one up for €30-35.... Well worth it for the sadomasochism benefits if nothing else

ncmc

Gavlor wrote: »

2 pages in and nobody has mentioned a foam roller, shame on you ncmc

To avoid niggly injuries, anybody that's considering running a marathon should invest in a foam roller. You'll pick one up for €30-35.... Well worth it for the sadomasochism benefits if nothing else

I refer you to my own log where I admit my shameful lack of rolling and stretching... hence why I am spending Valentines evening undergoing the torture that is a deep tissue massage

Gavlor

ncmc wrote: »

I refer you to my own log where I admit my shameful lack of rolling and stretching... hence why I am spending Valentines evening undergoing the torture that is a deep tissue massage

Sounds better than a meal and flowers if I'm being honest

Anyway, I'm referring to the op and his request for tips, help and info

Beef

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. I actually already have a foam roller and used it on Tuesday evening. I'd rather not talk about it...
Also a good tip my physio gave me was to buy paper cups and fill/freeze them. you can then tear of the paper and get a really good icing/massage session into the smaller areas that the foam roller can't really get in to. I'm going to do this on my ITB's to numb them before I go at them again on the roller. It's so bloody sore!

Edit - Also there's a 10K race close by in Dungarvan on the 24th of this month. It coincides with a step back week to 9 miles in the plan. Should I race this or keep doing my LSR as the plan states???

ncmc

Gavlor wrote: »

Sounds better than a meal and flowers if I'm being honest

Anyway, I'm referring to the op and his request for tips, help and info

Haha, looks like Mrs Gavlor is in for a romantic valentines so :pac::D:pac:

The sad thing is, I do have a foam roller, I just never use the bloody thing

Beef wrote: »

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. I actually already have a foam roller and used it on Tuesday evening. I'd rather not talk about it...
Also a good tip my physio gave me was to buy paper cups and fill/freeze them. you can then tear of the paper and get a really good icing/massage session into the smaller areas that the foam roller can't really get in to. I'm going to do this on my ITB's to numb them before I go at them again on the roller. It's so bloody sore!

Edit - Also there's a 10K race close by in Dungarvan on the 24th of this month. It coincides with a step back week to 9 miles in the plan. Should I race this or keep doing my LSR as the plan states???

Sounds like your flying Beef! That's a good tip about the paper cups with ice.

I'd be inclined to do the race, you could do your 9 mile LSR earlier in the week and replace your PMP session with the race. Or you could forget the LSR and do the race instead. I think a race would benefit you more than the LSR would.

Beef

ncmc wrote: »

I'd be inclined to do the race, you could do your 9 mile LSR earlier in the week and replace your PMP session with the race. Or you could forget the LSR and do the race instead. I think a race would benefit you more than the LSR would.

I was hoping someone would say that!
To be honest I was so impressed by the 10miler in Dungarvan I'd love to go back down and support them for this one. €8 too!

@Gavlor - I'd be inclined to agree with you, if I had my way I'd be out running again tonight. But she puts up with me gone to work all day in Cork and only being home in the evenings after the drive home so I'll give it a miss for tonight.
She surely won't notice me gone at 05:30 in the morning though

ncmc

Beef wrote: »

I was hoping someone would say that!
To be honest I was so impressed by the 10miler in Dungarvan I'd love to go back down and support them for this one. €8 too!

@Gavlor - I'd be inclined to agree with you, if I had my way I'd be out running again tonight. But she puts up with me gone to work all day in Cork and only being home in the evenings after the drive home so I'll give it a miss for tonight.
She surely won't notice me gone at 05:30 in the morning though

Oh no! Not another early morning runner :eek: Myself and Gavlor are firmly in the 'you must be feckin crazy heading out at 5am' camp

statss

Good luck with the log. Similar times to myself and I'm loosely following HH Novice 2 for Connemara in 7 weeks. I would certainly slow down a bit. I've picked up an injury in Jan doing speedwork as I've been struggling to shake it off since.

Beef

statss wrote: »

Good luck with the log. Similar times to myself and I'm loosely following HH Novice 2 for Connemara in 7 weeks. I would certainly slow down a bit. I've picked up an injury in Jan doing speedwork as I've been struggling to shake it off since.

You've prompted another question from me statss! If I'm following HH novice 2, is there any scope for sneaky miles if I feel up to it? I'm defo going to slow down as everyone has suggested that - but just say I feel good on a monday, or it's the monday of a step back week - could I add another run in, or do one a bit quicker? This may not at all come to pass as I will probably be wrecked when the bigger mileage starts up, I'm just curious. Is speedwork how you got injured, as it's not on the plan do you think?

Steroo

Best of luck beef. Great advice from all angles there. See you in cork for that sub 4!

statss

Beef wrote: »

You've prompted another question from me statss! If I'm following HH novice 2, is there any scope for sneaky miles if I feel up to it? I'm defo going to slow down as everyone has suggested that - but just say I feel good on a monday, or it's the monday of a step back week - could I add another run in, or do one a bit quicker? This may not at all come to pass as I will probably be wrecked when the bigger mileage starts up, I'm just curious. Is speedwork how you got injured, as it's not on the plan do you think?

I'm the worst person to ask to be honest as I have been dipping in and out of the HH plan as it suits me! This is what lead to my injury.

Basically, I was originally training for a half, using HH half marathon intermediate plan, however I also joined a club last November and started doing their sessions, where at least one a week of them would be speedwork. I figured these would only improve my running so mixed them in with the HH plan. The injury occured during one of these sessions in January.

I've since decided to switch to the full 3 weeks ago and jump in into week 10 of the full Novice 2 plan, managing the injury on a day to day basis.

For you I would say that the simplest and easiest thing to do is to stick exactly to the plan.

I'm sure Blockic will agree :pac:

I've been guilty of over enthusiasm and it's cost me a few training sessions. Had I planned for this marathon properly I would pick 1 plan and follow it to the letter right from the start. This is what I intend to do for DCM.

ncmc

Beef wrote: »

You've prompted another question from me statss! If I'm following HH novice 2, is there any scope for sneaky miles if I feel up to it? I'm defo going to slow down as everyone has suggested that - but just say I feel good on a monday, or it's the monday of a step back week - could I add another run in, or do one a bit quicker? This may not at all come to pass as I will probably be wrecked when the bigger mileage starts up, I'm just curious. Is speedwork how you got injured, as it's not on the plan do you think?

I would be slow to fit in extra miles Beef (except maybe an extra recovery run the day after the LSR) The stepback weeks are there for a reason, they are to allow the body to rest and regenerate. The training plan does get tough, so I would advice you enjoy the rest days and stepback weeks while you can! Although I don't think there would be any harm in doing one of the midweek runs at PMP, I used to do my Wednesday run at PMP, even if it wasn't specified in the plan.

Gavlor

ncmc wrote: »

Oh no! Not another early morning runner :eek: Myself and Gavlor are firmly in the 'you must be feckin crazy heading out at 5am' camp

'thread unfollowed'

I cant take another early morning runner looking down their nose at me!! They are the running equivalent of BMW drivers

Beef

I'm certainly not an early morning runner generally! But I won't be running tonight and I want to get a run in before Saturdays LSR. It also means I'll be knackered tomorrow night and won't get tempted to go to the pub.

Also, I drive a ford. :P

career_move

Beef wrote: »

You've prompted another question from me statss! If I'm following HH novice 2, is there any scope for sneaky miles if I feel up to it? I'm defo going to slow down as everyone has suggested that - but just say I feel good on a monday, or it's the monday of a step back week - could I add another run in, or do one a bit quicker? This may not at all come to pass as I will probably be wrecked when the bigger mileage starts up, I'm just curious. Is speedwork how you got injured, as it's not on the plan do you think?

I did 5 runs most weeks. Just added on a 4 mile recovery run after the lsr on sat.

Gavlor wrote: »

'thread unfollowed'

I cant take another early morning runner looking down their nose at me!! They are the running equivalent of BMW drivers

Gavlor

Beef wrote: »

You've prompted another question from me statss! If I'm following HH novice 2, is there any scope for sneaky miles if I feel up to it? I'm defo going to slow down as everyone has suggested that - but just say I feel good on a monday, or it's the monday of a step back week - could I add another run in, or do one a bit quicker? This may not at all come to pass as I will probably be wrecked when the bigger mileage starts up, I'm just curious. Is speedwork how you got injured, as it's not on the plan do you think?

Rest days are better for you than extra miles...all the cool people take 2 or 3 a week :cool:

On a serious note, considering its your first marathon, rest/recovery days will be just as important as mileage. it will also help you get the most out of your lsr's

Beef

Up at 5:40 and on the road just before 6. I had to step into wet runners though - I had underestimated how much of a soaking I got on Wednesday night. :rolleyes:
I've stashed them under a radiator at home so herself will probably be wondering where the funny smell is coming from when she gets up.
I'm going to buy another pair tomorrow and break them in this week, they might even get their debut race in Dungarvan next week.

Anyway it was a nice cool morning and I did 3 miles in 26:50. Based on the advice given to me here, I think I'll slow tomo's LSR (12 miles) down to about 9:30 pace.

Beef

Went for the LSR on Saturday morning and ended up doing 13 miles altogether. I need to check the Garmin but I think the first mile was about 9ish and then I slowed down to about 9:30mpm for the next 9/10 miles. My last 2 miles were done at 08:40 and 8ish (I think). Is that very bold?