GRA pull out of pay talks

tayto lover

salonfire wrote: »

I completely accept it is not a great salary at all for the risks involved, but my main point is that the poor mouthing that goes on here is without foundation.

Would giving Gardai a grand a week take home reduce the risks? Or would the same dangers be there?

This is a poor analogy but I am going to mention it anyway...what about the bouncers inside crowded nightclubs? Do they not also face the same dangers of being spat at? Should we as a country ensure they take home a grand a week (pro-rated to the hours worked) because of the risk they face also?


BTW, farming is the most dangerous occupation anyone can do.

The dangers in farming are at you're own control.
The dangers for our Gardai are not, they are at the control of the public.
You might know that the slurry pit or the bull in the field are dangerous and as a result you take precautions. When the Gardai go to the scene of a row they don't know what they will meet or how many, what weapons if any the aggressors have or if they are prepared to use them. Not in their control.

source

salonfire wrote: »

BTW, farming is the most dangerous occupation anyone can do.

The only reason farming is dangerous, and I'll probably take some flak for this, is due to the inability of farmers to properly assess the risks of what their doing, and the failure to implement basic health and safety protocols.

Things like using equipment with safety guards removed, not wearing PPE, wearing loose clothing Around moving machinery, not looking for overhead wires, etc etc etc.

Basically the reason farming is so dangerous is due to farmers cutting corners, and going at things like a bull in a China shop.

I'm aware that not every farm accident is caused by these things but the vast majority are.

Gardai on the other hand deal with irrational and unpredictable scumbags who won't lose any sleep over killing or seriously injuring a guard.

mikemac1

TV license at €13.33

That's a monthly figure, not a weekly one

You're comparing a monthly bill against a weekly salary

oscar2

Legal Expert wrote: »

I make it that you will be earning at least €2500 net per month including your big cheque. That is most certainly an above average net salary. Its not great in Ireland but any reasonable person should be financially ok on that income. I earn €2600 per month so I should know. I'm currently saving about 900 per month and living in South Dublin. You have your own reasons to be financially struggling but that is unrelated to any decision to cut pay.

His mortage is small and loan repayments are well below average so I don't consider it worth his while considering the crap Gardai and other frontline have to put up with.

Visit your local A+E or urban Garda station some weekend night and just observe Irish society at its best.

Potential-Monke

mikemac1 wrote: »

TV license at €13.33

That's a monthly figure, not a weekly one

You're comparing a monthly bill against a weekly salary

My mistake, and i apologise. Add €9 to my weekly take home pay. Makes a huge difference... Having gone back through all the figures, that is my only mistake.

Legal Expert wrote: »

I make it that you will be earning at least €2500 net per month including your big cheque. That is most certainly an above average net salary. Its not great in Ireland but any reasonable person should be financially ok on that income. I earn €2600 per month so I should know. I'm currently saving about 900 per month and living in South Dublin. You have your own reasons to be financially struggling but that is unrelated to any decision to cut pay.

How is it unrelated? I work to get paid, to pay my bills. Just because you obviously don't have the loans i do: which, aside from maybe €7k over 6 or so years, were all necessary. My loans include the deposit for my mortgage, which was a large sum, and the rest were accumulated during the first 18 months service where i was on less than the dole a week. Of that €7k, €3500 was for a last minute holiday for myself and then partner, to enjoy a bit of life before potentially 10 years of not even making it to Ballybunion. If i didn't have my loans, i could save €700 a month. If i had someone living with me, i could save €1000 a month. Also worth noting is a €6k loan i had going into the job from education.

Just because the Government sees that i earn maybe €2500 net a month, doesn't mean i can afford a cut. €2500 a month is probably a weeks wages to them. I reckon maybe 80%, if not more, of members of AGS have loans or a mortgage. Just like i reckon a similar figure in the working private sector.

Geansai

Potential-Monke, maybe I'm missing something here, but you're repaying €7,800 per annum on personal loans.
Aside from the whole €7k that was frivolous, another part of the loan relates to the deposit so that you could get your mortgage. Most people would have saved that amount and not taken on the extra debt. I know those were the times we lived in during the boom, however, your personal loans and debt cannot be the basis for refusing a pay cut across the board for all Gardai.

Taking your monthly spending…

You say disposable income of €21.25
Add to that your big cheque (say €125/4) €31.25
The adjustment for the TV licence €10.25 (like you say, not massive, but when you’re so broke it all adds up)
Sky €6
Internet €11.25 – (Keep it for your sanity, but it’s still disposable)
Social Club €4 (you’re prob better off saving your €4 each week, if its only for the odd pint at a social event, doubt you get 52 pints our of the fund)

We’re up to €84 disposable a week.
Still not massive, and you’ll never be rich, but you have a little wiggle room so you won’t be evicted.
Now, if you could only get rid of your personal loans, or didn’t have them, you’d be up to €230 disposable each week.


All that said, the pay decreases that are being suggested are way in excess of what is reasonable. I expect it to be a ploy so that you’ll (the GRA and AGSI on your behalf) will accept a lesser cut and everyone will feel like they did a great job and negotiated out of the big cuts.

Finally, just to say, I fully agree that the Gardai in this country work hard and should only take their fair share of the cuts, and no more. I just feel that the arguments against the cuts should not try to be so sensational and even almost misleading. Stick the facts when pleading your case, as there is a strong case to be made.

Potential-Monke

Geansai wrote: »

Potential-Monke, maybe I'm missing something here, but you're repaying €7,800 per annum on personal loans.
Aside from the whole €7k that was frivolous, another part of the loan relates to the deposit so that you could get your mortgage. Most people would have saved that amount and not taken on the extra debt. I know those were the times we lived in during the boom, however, your personal loans and debt cannot be the basis for refusing a pay cut across the board for all Gardai.

Taking your monthly spending…

You say disposable income of €21.25
Add to that your big cheque (say €125/4) €31.25
The adjustment for the TV licence €10.25 (like you say, not massive, but when you’re so broke it all adds up)
Sky €6
Internet €11.25 – (Keep it for your sanity, but it’s still disposable)
Social Club €4 (you’re prob better off saving your €4 each week, if its only for the odd pint at a social event, doubt you get 52 pints our of the fund)

We’re up to €84 disposable a week.
Still not massive, and you’ll never be rich, but you have a little wiggle room so you won’t be evicted.
Now, if you could only get rid of your personal loans, or didn’t have them, you’d be up to €230 disposable each week.


All that said, the pay decreases that are being suggested are way in excess of what is reasonable. I expect it to be a ploy so that you’ll (the GRA and AGSI on your behalf) will accept a lesser cut and everyone will feel like they did a great job and negotiated out of the big cuts.

Finally, just to say, I fully agree that the Gardai in this country work hard and should only take their fair share of the cuts, and no more. I just feel that the arguments against the cuts should not try to be so sensational and even almost misleading. Stick the facts when pleading your case, as there is a strong case to be made.

Again, just like nearly everyone else who is getting cuts these days, just because it may be afforded doesn't mean it should be cut. There are plenty of other options, but those affect the people earning way more than the average Joe in the public or private sector.

Yes, if i cut all that, i will have €84 a week disposable. But with no TV, Internet or Social Club (it's more than just pints), in order to save that €84 i'm expected to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs?

And we won't be taking any cut. Big or small, we won't be taking them. This is not a ploy to say "Ah aren't we great for taking a cut" if the government back down and barely cut us. The bottom line is, we're not taking any cut.

It would be a great world we'd live in if no one had loans, or mortgages. We wouldn't be in this position in the first place if that was the way. But countries run on mortgages, loans and the public spending their money.

tayto lover

Legal Expert wrote: »

You need to take more responsibility for your own finances particularly. considering the ban on being bankrupt in your profession. If you actually saved for a mortgage and not taken no more credit you'd be in a much better situation.

The government can and will cut your wage as you have more than enough to live an average life. If you need a higher paying job to pay for your loans then go get one.

Where will he go?

tayto lover

Legal Expert wrote: »

I don't know. Start a business. Become an accountant.

I'm not too happy with my €2600 a month permanent state job and its only going to get worse. I'm fairly certain I will be gone in a few months and working abroad for a lot more money.

Hope it works out for you.

pah

Legal Expert wrote: »

I don't know. Start a business. Become an accountant.

I'm not too happy with my €2600 a month permanent state job and its only going to get worse. I'm fairly certain I will be gone in a few months and working abroad for a lot more money.

Please God. Any chance if you do leave that it would mean you won't be posting here anymore?

Hootanany

0325422 wrote: »

Should organise some kind of protest.. Show the government we can make it difficult if they intend bringing in these pay cuts without proper negotiation and debate on the issues.. . Every driver in the country on chiefs should hand back their permission to drive without proper training, refuse to use personal equipment, such as laptops and phones, printers in many cases as they spend more time not working than working in many stations. Make things difficult.. Blue flu might not have much too much public support..

Cop on that's why we are in this .

tayto lover

Hootanany wrote: »

Cop on that's why we are in this .

I agree with that poster.
Why should they prop-up a failing system by using their own equipment and then be expected to also take all the sh** thrown at them?

Give them plenty inc a blue flu if necessary lads.

listen, i think the gardai should stop with the ex-factor sob stories, we all know the dangers everyone in the frontline services face every tour.

we all know that front line staff sacrifise weekends, christmas, bank holidays etc.

in this fight frontline staff need to stick to what is fair and equal, if money needs to be saved in the public sector, than do it equally.

do not take money off frontline staff so that people who work unsociable hours and days are earning less than people who work in an office 9 to 5, monday to friday.

it should be the main issue that if frontline staff have to do these hours than they should not be discriminated against, and other non-frontline staff public servants get away with this.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-action-no-risk-for-public-585626.html

The Garda Representative Association (GRA) said people will have to wait to see what impact the “withdrawal of goodwill” will have, but insisted officers will not be breaking the law with the action.

John Parker, GRA president, said gardaí have been providing a sticking plaster to an under-resourced force by using personal cars, mobile phones, laptops and cameras – all which will stop indefinitely from tomorrow.

“The public will not be put at risk,” Mr Parker said. “But it will be up to managers to manage the situation.”

Up to 30 gardaí earlier protested outside public sector pay talks in Dublin amid claims they have been frozen out of negotiations for more cuts.

Comments:

You should never have been using personal equipment or using chiefs permission in lieu of a proper driving course. They should never return to using personal equipment or chiefs permission regardless of the outcome of any talks.

In fact using this as a bargaining tool is silly. You should never have been doing it in the first place.

They got away with training recruits without including the driving course because of chiefs. They never got the equipment or more cars because you used you own.

While the Gardai are not my favourite people..

I support them on this action...
Why should they use their own personal property, phones, laptops, etc...
The "legalized thugs" in Leinster house get millions in expenses and still dont use their personal stuff...

All this for what???
To gamblers in Europe and further afield??
Most ordinary guards are struggling just like the rest of us....
Easy for their lapdog Commissioner and Shatter the bully to talk..

Have to say I agree with the gist of those comments. I don`t think Gardai should ever go back to using their own equipment. Nobody else does it unless they are working for themselves and in which case different vat rates apply and it is listed for tax purposes as a company asset!!!

coolhandluke

I would love to know how the job is going to function, without the free use of members usb sticks, laptops, mobile phones, camera phones and even portable hard drives, sometimes you don't know how good you had it......

J K

coolhandluke wrote: »

I would love to know how the job is going to function, without the free use of members usb sticks, laptops, mobile phones, camera phones and even portable hard drives, sometimes you don't know how good you had it......

And could you imagine if they stopped illegally driving dangerously defective vehicles. Which is most patrol cars in the country.

volauvent

I am in full support of the gardai standing up for themselves.
I worked in a hospital and have to say any dealings with gardai were an extremely positive experience.
They are very well trained, very professional and very good with people generally.
We have an impressive police force.
I really believe they should be paid well.

SB2013

I wonder will the Ireland game at the Aviva go ahead

0325422

SB2013 wrote: »

I wonder will the Ireland game at the Aviva go ahead

There's a strong chance it won't be able to go ahead

King Ludvig

Anybody have any thoughts on how reserve members should/will play into this withdrawal of goodwill and possible industrial action in the future? For example, should reserve Gardai also deny any request for the policing of events in support if their full time colleagues?

If things go down the blue flu route, should reserve Gardai make themselves unavailable to show solidarity?

source

King Ludvig wrote: »

Anybody have any thoughts on how reserve members should/will play into this withdrawal of goodwill and possible industrial action in the future? For example, should reserve Gardai also deny any request for the policing of events in support if their full time colleagues?

If things go down the blue flu route, should reserve Gardai make themselves unavailable to show solidarity?

They can't work unless accompanied by a full member, no full members working means no reserves working.

redsurfer

As a reserve, I would not work it, and all the reserves I know would not work it. We support our fellow gardai in their actions. Even if the G.R.A. AGAIN calls for us to be disbanded.

King Ludvig

source wrote: »

They can't work unless accompanied by a full member, no full members working means no reserves working.

I was under the impression the 1:1 ratio didn't apply at events? Also, there'll always be some full timers working. 100% did not ring in sick in 1998.

0325422

King Ludvig wrote: »

I was under the impression the 1:1 ratio didn't apply at events? Also, there'll always be some full timers working. 100% did not ring in sick in 1998.

That's because probationers didn't take part, no such thing anymore

pah

0325422 wrote: »

That's because probationers didn't take part, no such thing anymore

And students" neither of those groups available

goldie fish

0325422 wrote: »

That's because probationers didn't take part, no such thing anymore

At garda rank, it was pretty close to 100%. AGSI members did not go on blue flu.

Neither did the ERU.

source

King Ludvig wrote: »

I was under the impression the 1:1 ratio didn't apply at events? Also, there'll always be some full timers working. 100% did not ring in sick in 1998.

True but there has to be some mules there, if there are none because they're all gone non effective then the reserves can't be used.

bravestar

goldie fish wrote: »

Neither did the ERU.

I wonder why!

unichall

0325422 wrote: »

Should organise some kind of protest.. Show the government we can make it difficult if they intend bringing in these pay cuts without proper negotiation and debate on the issues.. . Every driver in the country on chiefs should hand back their permission to drive without proper training, refuse to use personal equipment, such as laptops and phones, printers in many cases as they spend more time not working than working in many stations. Make things difficult.. Blue flu might not have much too much public support..

With regard lads not driving on chiefs we are only making a rod for our own backs here. I am the only official driver on the unit and all official drivers would just be refused leave when they apply for it because the 'exigencies' of the force. Also units with more than one official driver will have lads split up and moved to other units with none, lads pulled back to regular from compol etc.

It is an unfair burden to place on official drivers for the sake of a protest. Grounding cars that dont for the slightest reason meet health and saftey guidelines is far more practical and with an aging fleet will be more effective if impkemented across the board

SB2013

unichall wrote: »

With regard lads not driving on chiefs we are only making a rod for our own backs here. I am the only official driver on the unit and all official drivers would just be refused leave when they apply for it because the 'exigencies' of the force. Also units with more than one official driver will have lads split up and moved to other units with none, lads pulled back to regular from compol etc.

It is an unfair burden to place on official drivers for the sake of a protest. Grounding cars that dont for the slightest reason meet health and saftey guidelines is far more practical and with an aging fleet will be more effective if impkemented across the board

Nobody said industrial action would be easy. It will be up to the official drivers to take a stand for themselves too. Being expected to drive for 6 10 hour shifts in a row is not acceptable either.