GRA pull out of pay talks

angrykoala

this has been posted on rte in the last while

The Garda Representative Association, which represents rank and file gardaí, has pulled out of talks on extending the Croke Park Agreement.
Following a day-long meeting, the GRA central executive rejected Government proposals to reduce payroll costs that include a cut in garda wages.
It said it would not participate in any process that proposes such cuts.

will it make any difference or will the government just carry on regardless. is it a wise move? thoughts?

Royal Irish

blue flu is on the horizon and i wouldn't blame them.

tayto lover

It looks like it might end in a Blue Flu but I hope not.

0325422

tayto lover wrote: »

It looks like it might end in a Blue Flu but I hope not.

Should organise some kind of protest.. Show the government we can make it difficult if they intend bringing in these pay cuts without proper negotiation and debate on the issues.. . Every driver in the country on chiefs should hand back their permission to drive without proper training, refuse to use personal equipment, such as laptops and phones, printers in many cases as they spend more time not working than working in many stations. Make things difficult.. Blue flu might not have much too much public support..

timmywex

Any word on GRA protesting in the ICTU protest this Saturday?

AGSI are on board already http://www.agsi.ie/articles/ictu-march-dublin-9th-february/

tayto lover

0325422 wrote: »

Should organise some kind of protest.. Show the government we can make it difficult if they intend bringing in these pay cuts without proper negotiation and debate on the issues.. . Every driver in the country on chiefs should hand back their permission to drive without proper training, refuse to use personal equipment, such as laptops and phones, printers in many cases as they spend more time not working than working in many stations. Make things difficult.. Blue flu might not have much too much public support..

Public support is one thing but it will not pay you're member's bills or feed their families. If I was you I wouldn't worry too much about it.

angrykoala

im not convinced that the blue flu would work. it certainly wont help gardai with the public perception of them. i think the work to rule would be a lot more effective

audidiesel

public opinion is pretty much already decided though. guards are being backed into a corner.

its easy to see how this escalates. personally im in favour of work to rule and also blue flu.

if we roll over and take these cuts im done in this job. making about 430 a week after tax and deductions. for the job i do, im not prepared to take any less and ive no problem fighting to keep it.

kub

audidiesel wrote: »

public opinion is pretty much already decided though. guards are being backed into a corner.

its easy to see how this escalates. personally im in favour of work to rule and also blue flu.

if we roll over and take these cuts im done in this job. making about 430 a week after tax and deductions. for the job i do, im not prepared to take any less and ive no problem fighting to keep it.

My God, I had no idea it was that bad, I would have thought you guys got over € 550 a week. Holy carp for all ye have to put up with, what a joke.

Lads is there any news on the crowd in the courts getting their pay and conditions cut?

van_beano

kub wrote: »

My God, I had no idea it was that bad, I would have thought you guys got over € 550 a week. Holy carp for all ye have to put up with, what a joke.

Lads is there any news on the crowd in the courts getting their pay and conditions cut?

Nope Kub, the pay can be generally crap after the USC, Taxes, PRSI and PAYE have been taken out and that's excluding GRA Sub, Medical Aid, Life Assurance, Critical Illness, Luke Scott (possibly) Benevolent Fund etc. Garda pay dosn't get good until you're Supt rank upwards, even a Cigs wage these days is bad. I'm not joking when I say 60% of gross can be gone straight away!

Oh and pension levy!

Kat1170

van_beano wrote: »

I'm not joking when I say 60% of gross can be gone straight away!

This is the bit people don't get when they are quoting ''average public sector pay''

van_beano

Kat1170 wrote: »

This is the bit people don't get when they are quoting ''average public sector pay''

What ya mean?

Kat1170

van_beano wrote: »

What ya mean?

Many people seem to think the 'average public sector pay' that gets quoted is take home pay, if only.

van_beano

Kat1170 wrote: »

Many people seem to think the 'average public sector pay' that gets quoted is take home pay, if only.

Oh what I wouldn't give to be on a Commissioners salary.

It's funny though that all the cuts in Garda pay that the Government are looking for all have one thing in common - they don't affect Supt rank upwards or
1) Half Sunday pay premium - Supt don't get Sunday pay, all part of salary
2) Half Bank Holiday Premium - Supt don't get Bank Holiday pay, all part of salary
3) Abolish Good Friday Pay - Supt don't get Good Friday pay, all part of salary
4) Abolish Sat Allowance - Supt don't get Sat Allowance pay, all part of salary
5) Cut back on unsocialable hours - Supt don't get unsocialable hours pay, all part of salary

This is the reason the Suptintendents union are never heard of, sure what would they have to give out about? I'm open to correction on anything I've said, it is nearly 4am

Speaking from a Garda viewpoint It is incredible that its only GRA and AGSI members that feel the full brunt of all these cuts. The same can be said, however, for all frontline staff but hey, why should anyone care, no one forced these people to join the Emergency Service!!

tayto lover

audidiesel wrote: »

public opinion is pretty much already decided though. guards are being backed into a corner.

its easy to see how this escalates. personally im in favour of work to rule and also blue flu.

if we roll over and take these cuts im done in this job. making about 430 a week after tax and deductions. for the job i do, im not prepared to take any less and ive no problem fighting to keep it.

That is a very poor take home pay.
Reading posts on other threads I thought you lads were on twice that.
Stand you're ground for better wages and conditions, you deserve it.

coolhandluke

van_beano wrote: »

Oh what I wouldn't give to be on a Commissioners salary.

It's funny though that all the cuts in Garda pay that the Government are looking for all have one thing in common - they don't affect Supt rank upwards or
1) Half Sunday pay premium - Supt don't get Sunday pay, all part of salary
2) Half Bank Holiday Premium - Supt don't get Bank Holiday pay, all part of salary
3) Abolish Good Friday Pay - Supt don't get Good Friday pay, all part of salary
4) Abolish Sat Allowance - Supt don't get Sat Allowance pay, all part of salary
5) Cut back on unsocialable hours - Supt don't get unsocialable hours pay, all part of salary

This is the reason the Suptintendents union are never heard of, sure what would they have to give out about? I'm open to correction on anything I've said, it is nearly 4am

Speaking from a Garda viewpoint It is incredible that its only GRA and AGSI members that feel the full brunt of all these cuts. The same can be said, however, for all frontline staff but hey, why should anyone care, no one forced these people to join the Emergency Service!!

It's actually even worse than that, afaik civil servants in the gardai are not expected to take any cuts to their wages, so these cuts are targeted specifically at gardai,sgt's and inspectors. If the members don't stand together on this, then would have to say you get what you take......because the govt are just taking the piss at this stage.

Zambia

All garda should cease to issue FPN's

Send all offenders to court for all offences

0325422

Zambia wrote: »

All garda should cease to issue FPN's

Send all offenders to court for all offences

Not a bad idea.. It's gas what goes on down the courts with minor road traffic offences being adjourned for Gary Doyle orders and stuff just so free legal aid solicitors make more money.. Free legal aid should be cut way back.. Massive money to be saved in area of penal warrants. Ferrying prisoners around country in taxi's only for them to be released same day is a crazy situation

goldie fish

coolhandluke wrote: »

It's actually even worse than that, afaik civil servants in the gardai are not expected to take any cuts to their wages, so these cuts are targeted specifically at gardai,sgt's and inspectors. If the members don't stand together on this, then would have to say you get what you take......because the govt are just taking the piss at this stage.

Not true.

Civil servants in the GS are members of CPSU. While no pay cuts have been proposed (because further pay cuts would actually cause an increase in take home pay to most) extra working hours are being proposed. Working more hours for the same money is the same as a pay cut.

van_beano

0325422 wrote: »

Not a bad idea.. It's gas what goes on down the courts with minor road traffic offences being adjourned for Gary Doyle orders and stuff just so free legal aid solicitors make more money.. Free legal aid should be cut way back.. Massive money to be saved in area of penal warrants. Ferrying prisoners around country in taxi's only for them to be released same day is a crazy situation

In theory they should do away with Penal Warrants, most go out of date or need to be reissued etc. The way to fix that is have all fines linked to a persons PPS No and fines to be taken from Income or Welfare, that'll mean 100% collection and no warrants, Revenue should be able to do this easily. Dosn't work for those with no PPS ke turists etc. but there's always cash bail in certain circumstances although not minor road traffic but sure it's a step in the right direction.

In terms of saving money, do we really need a paper version of our payslip in an envelope every week? Getting rid could save a few hundred thousand Id imagine

Anyways that's all for another day, I've gone way off topic, sorry

coolhandluke

goldie fish wrote: »

Not true.

Civil servants in the GS are members of CPSU. While no pay cuts have been proposed (because further pay cuts would actually cause an increase in take home pay to most) extra working hours are being proposed. Working more hours for the same money is the same as a pay cut.

The same increased working hours were proposed for gardai as well, in addition to the paycuts. The having a laugh approach of the DOJ has actually backfired on them, i have never seen lads/ladies so irate.

How do you go home with more pay, after a paycut ?

van_beano

coolhandluke wrote: »

The same increased working hours were proposed for gardai as well, in addition to the paycuts. The having a laugh approach of the DOJ has actually backfired on them, i have never seen lads/ladies so irate.

How do you go home with more pay, after a paycut ?

Maybe it's more pay because Family Income Supplement, Medical Card etc would kick in? Cost the Government more in Welfare payments?

0325422

van_beano wrote: »

In theory they should do away with Penal Warrants, most go out of date or need to be reissued etc. The way to fix that is have all fines linked to a persons PPS No and fines to be taken from Income or Welfare, that'll mean 100% collection and no warrants, Revenue should be able to do this easily. Dosn't work for those with no PPS ke turists etc. but there's always cash bail in certain circumstances although not minor road traffic but sure it's a step in the right direction.

In terms of saving money, do we really need a paper version of our payslip in an envelope every week? Getting rid could save a few hundred thousand Id imagine

Anyways that's all for another day, I've gone way off topic, sorry

It's not really way off topic as its an alternative to pay cuts that could be brought to the table to save money.. Payslips is great money saving type idea. Majority of stations have a pulse machine linked to email which can be printed if a member needs them.. There was talks before of being paid every second week to save admin time, not sure that would make a whole pileof difference as its only the big cheque that's different every week.

Scrimping money on not buying new patrol cars is a total waste. Cars getting Massive work on them at great expense to squeeze last few miles out of them. Lack of patrol cars meaning members using own vehicles to get to work costing more money. Clapped out Printers and photocopiers being constantly fixed instead of buying new ones..

Do away with this declaring cars off the road too.. A line of people at the station at start of every month telling lies must cost millions in unpaid road tax.

coolhandluke

van_beano wrote: »

Maybe it's more pay because Family Income Supplement, Medical Card etc would kick in? Cost the Government more in Welfare payments?

I very much doubt the DOJ cares less what it costs the dept of Health/welfare as long as it's not costing them, i think health and welfare have bust their budget every year since this recession started, last year it was 300m and 600m respectively, and they just got a supplementary extra.

So while we get creamed for 60m or so they overrun by 900m and the money can be found, even though apparently everybody accepts there are 2,000 administrators in the HSE doing nothing.........sound fair.

van_beano

Here's a controversial cost saving idea and I'll probably should just close the door behind me before I get given out to but - disband the Garda Reserve (approx 935 members according to the fountain of Knowledge - Wikipedia) which at a cost of €1k a person makes €935,000 per annum, this excludes any tax, PRSI, Insurance etc that the Government may pay behind the scenes, would there be much change left out of a million euros?

goldie fish

coolhandluke wrote: »

The same increased working hours were proposed for gardai as well, in addition to the paycuts. The having a laugh approach of the DOJ has actually backfired on them, i have never seen lads/ladies so irate.

How do you go home with more pay, after a paycut ?

Once your wage reaches a certain level you are on a lower rate of PRSI. Lower again and instead of paying income tax you are getting tax back.

goldie fish

van_beano wrote: »

Here's a controversial cost saving idea and I'll probably should just close the door behind me before I get given out to but - disband the Garda Reserve (approx 935 members according to the fountain of Knowledge - Wikipedia) which at a cost of €1k a person makes €935,000 per annum, this excludes any tax, PRSI, Insurance etc that the Government may pay behind the scenes, would there be much change left out of a million euros?

What difference would a million make? It's millions, preferably billions they want. Cutting the reserve would get nil back in the long term. I dodn't realise the reserve got paid a wage. If they do, tax, prsi etc is miniscule.

van_beano

goldie fish wrote: »

What difference would a million make? It's millions, preferably billions they want. Cutting the reserve would get nil back in the long term. I dodn't realise the reserve got paid a wage. If they do, tax, prsi etc is miniscule.

Well they're looking for €16m a year for next three years from the Gardai, at least with this cut its roughly €1m out of the way without it affecting the fully fledged members of the force.

Sierra Oscar

van_beano wrote: »

Well they're looking for €16m a year for next three years from the Gardai, at least with this cut its roughly €1m out of the way without it affecting the fully fledged members of the force.

The only issue is that the government is attempting to achieve increased manpower hours on a tighter budget - they would argue that the reserve is not all that bad value for what it costs, and that cutting it would reduce manpower hours.

van_beano

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The only issue is that the government is attempting to achieve increased manpower hours on a tighter budget - they would argue that the reserve is not all that bad value for what it costs, and that cutting it would reduce manpower hours.

Counter argument is cost of providing uniforms, boots, stab vests, ASP's, pepper spray and handcuffs to each member plus keeping licenses open on a good few "pool" TETRA's at €600-€800 a year each and all for 248 hours work a year.

Personal issue TETRA's for full members should be got rid of aswell, cost on line rental is astronomical

Sierra Oscar

van_beano wrote: »

Counter argument is cost of providing uniforms, boots, stab vests, ASP's, pepper spray and handcuffs to each member plus keeping licenses open on a good few "pool" TETRA's at €600-€800 a year each and all for 248 hours work a year.

Personal issue TETRA's for full members should be got rid of aswell, cost on line rental is astronomical

Good point, something that certainly the representative unions should put forward if the government start talking out loud about the need to expand the reserves instead of launching a new intake of full time members.

Bosh

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Good point, something that certainly the representative unions should put forward if the government start talking out loud about the need to expand the reserves instead of launching a new intake of full time members.

Accelerated intake of reserves...

Sworn in, kitted out & out to a station for a year.

Then back to the factory, 3 months training, 5 year rolling contract, buy your own pension, half the pay of current members & voila!!!.....

The Yellow Pack brand is reborn

(no offence intended to current Reservists before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick )

Conspiracy theory anyone?

pah

In relation to the thread title the GRA have not engaged with Croke Park v2 or anything so they can't really "pull out" of something they are not in.

van_beano

pah wrote: »

In relation to the thread title the GRA have not engaged with Croke Park v2 or anything so they can't really "pull out" of something they are not in.

Ahh 6 of one, half a dozen of another.

It's a symbolic statement that they pull out, they aren't even a Trade Union, Gardai aren't allowed to be in a Trade Union. The GRA weren't even at the negotiating table for Croke Park v1 let alone Croke Park v2, the GRA accepted the outcome of CP v1 which was negotiated by the other Trade Unions.

tayto lover

van_beano wrote: »

Ahh 6 of one, half a dozen of another.

It's a symbolic statement that they pull out, they aren't even a Trade Union, Gardai aren't allowed to be in a Trade Union. The GRA weren't even at the negotiating table for Croke Park v1 let alone Croke Park v2, the GRA accepted the outcome of CP v1 which was negotiated by the other Trade Unions.

The entire Frontline PS should walk out and strike.
No cuts at the top it seems.

WilcoOut

Bosh wrote: »

buy your own pension,

whats that mean? contribute your own earnings to a private pension?

goldie fish

van_beano wrote: »

Counter argument is cost of providing uniforms, boots, stab vests, ASP's, pepper spray and handcuffs to each member plus keeping licenses open on a good few "pool" TETRA's at €600-€800 a year each and all for 248 hours work a year.

Personal issue TETRA's for full members should be got rid of aswell, cost on line rental is astronomical

Imagine the savings if they got rid of the uniform altogether? Seeing as we are going down that road.

tayto lover

goldie fish wrote: »

Imagine the savings if they got rid of the uniform altogether? Seeing as we are going down that road.

Have the State started to buy the cheap border diesel yet?

pah

Tonight we have sent a message to Mr Sh1tter. We have nothing left. Don't try and take what we can't give. If you do, we will f**k you up. Enough is enough, the line must be drawn, here.

Geansai

van_beano wrote: »

Nope Kub, the pay can be generally crap after the USC, Taxes, PRSI and PAYE have been taken out and that's excluding GRA Sub, Medical Aid, Life Assurance, Critical Illness, Luke Scott (possibly) Benevolent Fund etc. Garda pay dosn't get good until you're Supt rank upwards, even a Cigs wage these days is bad. I'm not joking when I say 60% of gross can be gone straight away!

Oh and pension levy!

Whilst I understnad that all these are on the payslip, not all of these exponeses are necessary.
Some are optional.

USC, Every PAYE Worker Pays
Taxes, Every PAYE Worker Pays
PRSI and PAYE Every PAYE Worker Pays

GRA Sub, Optional Expnese Union
Medical Aid, Optional Expnese Health Insurance
Life Assurance, Optional Expnese Insurance
Critical Illness, Optional Expnese Insurance
Luke Scott (possibly) Optional Expnese Insurance
Benevolent Fund Optional Expnese Charity

I'm not saying that a Garda should not take these out. They are all very importnat in your day to day life.
However, including these is simialr to includng expneses like "Petrol", "ESB" or "House Insurance".
It can be misleading.

BaronVon

van_beano wrote: »

Personal issue TETRA's for full members should be got rid of aswell, cost on line rental is astronomical

The Tetra contract is €40m a year. Whoever signed that contract should be made an example of.

Halving that would get the first years savings they want, and buy a few patrol cars to boot.

pa990

Geansai wrote: »

Whilst I understnad that all these are on the payslip, not all of these exponeses are necessary.
Some are optional.

USC, Every PAYE Worker Pays
Taxes, Every PAYE Worker Pays
PRSI and PAYE Every PAYE Worker Pays

GRA Sub, Optional Expnese Union
Medical Aid, Optional Expnese Health Insurance
Life Assurance, Optional Expnese Insurance
Critical Illness, Optional Expnese Insurance
Luke Scott (possibly) Optional Expnese Insurance
Benevolent Fund Optional Expnese Charity

I'm not saying that a Garda should not take these out. They are all very importnat in your day to day life.
However, including these is simialr to includng expneses like "Petrol", "ESB" or "House Insurance".
It can be misleading.

optional yes... but still necessary
we don't qualify for medical cards (yet)

Bosh

WilcoOut wrote: »

whats that mean? contribute your own earnings to a private pension?

At the moment Gardaí contribute toward a state pension scheme.

I would envision that no such scheme would be put in place for new entrants, that they would have to setup their own individually.

van_beano

Allegedly they're looking to cut Garda wages by €170 a week within the next year and a half (according to the comments section of this link http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-city-gardai-vote-industrial-action-784253-Feb2013/ )

There's no way they can cut this much off a weekly wage, I'll just be paying mortgage at that rate and nothing else, Aldi and Lidl won't be able to save me!

van_beano

Geansai wrote: »

However, including these is simialr to includng expneses like "Petrol", "ESB" or "House Insurance".
It can be misleading.

Oops sorry, I forgot to mention that Gardai also pay for petrol, ESB and House Insurance.

I also forgot to mention Gardai pay a very high Pension Levy.

goldie fish

Geansai wrote: »

Whilst I understnad that all these are on the payslip, not all of these exponeses are necessary.
Some are optional.

USC, Every PAYE Worker Pays
Taxes, Every PAYE Worker Pays
PRSI and PAYE Every PAYE Worker Pays

GRA Sub, Optional Expnese Union
Medical Aid, Optional Expnese Health Insurance
Life Assurance, Optional Expnese Insurance
Critical Illness, Optional Expnese Insurance
Luke Scott (possibly) Optional Expnese Insurance
Benevolent Fund Optional Expnese Charity

I'm not saying that a Garda should not take these out. They are all very importnat in your day to day life.
However, including these is simialr to includng expneses like "Petrol", "ESB" or "House Insurance".
It can be misleading.

I'd disagree with Medical Aid. Its far more than health insurance, and given the occupation, is far more utilised and comprehensive than any normal health insurance.

MagicSean

Geansai wrote: »

Whilst I understnad that all these are on the payslip, not all of these exponeses are necessary.
Some are optional.

USC, Every PAYE Worker Pays
Taxes, Every PAYE Worker Pays
PRSI and PAYE Every PAYE Worker Pays

GRA Sub, Optional Expnese Union
Medical Aid, Optional Expnese Health Insurance
Life Assurance, Optional Expnese Insurance
Critical Illness, Optional Expnese Insurance
Luke Scott (possibly) Optional Expnese Insurance
Benevolent Fund Optional Expnese Charity

I'm not saying that a Garda should not take these out. They are all very importnat in your day to day life.
However, including these is simialr to includng expneses like "Petrol", "ESB" or "House Insurance".
It can be misleading.

33% of standard weekly wage is subtracted for mandatory deductions, levies, taxes. That figure rises for the monthly payment of allowances depending on how much is earned in allowances. Hope that helps.

Potential-Monke

I'll give ye a breakdown of my wages:

Earned: €820.74

Tax*: €275.21

Deductions:

Medical Aid: €27
Income Protection: €6 (i think)
GRA Sub: €4.70
Social Club: €4

Loan: €150
Mortgage: €170
ESB/Gas: €25
Internet: €11.25
Sky: €6
Food: €40
Road Tax: €11.50
Insurance: €25
Petrol: €30
TV Licence: €13.33

Disposable income: €21.75

Just a few explanations:

- Medical Aid and Income Protection are 100% necessary in this line of work.
- Social Club is nearly the only time i can get to go out these days as it's a few free pints, but only when someone retires/transfers and there's a proper function.
- Tax includes PAYE, PRSI, USC, 3 x Pension related (all mandatory)
- Road Tax and Insurance broken down for weekly purposes
- Food is estimate, some weeks it's higher, others lower
- Internet is the only thing i have for sanity these days

Now, i can get rid of Sky, and be up a whopping €6 (whoop-de-do). And, the "big" cheque, which i get every 4th week might add another €100-€150, depending on sick leave or annual leave (the more of each, the less the "big cheque"). Also, the loan is the lowest i can go, and am precluded from getting another loan.

I'm 30 in May, living by myself (was not how it was intended, but who sees a 7 year relationship ending when plans are made?), can't find a lodger, replaced all bulbs with energy saving ones, can't afford to make the house warmer, can't afford anything big that comes along (the last loan was to fix a leaking shower).

Would you do this job for €27.75 a week?

pah

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I'll give ye a breakdown of my wages:

Earned: €820.74

Tax*: €275.21

Deductions:

Medical Aid: €27
Income Protection: €6 (i think)
GRA Sub: €4.70
Social Club: €4

Loan: €150
Mortgage: €170
ESB/Gas: €25
Internet: €11.25
Sky: €6
Food: €40
Road Tax: €11.50
Insurance: €25
Petrol: €30
TV Licence: €13.33

Disposable income: €21.75

Just a few explanations:

- Medical Aid and Income Protection are 100% necessary in this line of work.
- Social Club is nearly the only time i can get to go out these days as it's a few free pints, but only when someone retires/transfers and there's a proper function.
- Tax includes PAYE, PRSI, USC, 3 x Pension related (all mandatory)
- Road Tax and Insurance broken down for weekly purposes
- Food is estimate, some weeks it's higher, others lower
- Internet is the only thing i have for sanity these days

Now, i can get rid of Sky, and be up a whopping €6 (whoop-de-do). And, the "big" cheque, which i get every 4th week might add another €100-€150, depending on sick leave or annual leave (the more of each, the less the "big cheque"). Also, the loan is the lowest i can go, and am precluded from getting another loan.

I'm 30 in May, living by myself (was not how it was intended, but who sees a 7 year relationship ending when plans are made?), can't find a lodger, replaced all bulbs with energy saving ones, can't afford to make the house warmer, can't afford anything big that comes along (the last loan was to fix a leaking shower).

Would you do this job for €27.75 a week?

I am in much the same boat as you but I can't agree with how you rationalise your figures.

You have to quote your gross and your net figures and saying med aid is necessary I also agree.

However you are not doing this job for €27.75 a week. You are doing it for close to 500 a week. everybody has loans and bills to pay.

The only reason I have the ability to get the large loan I have is because of the job and the CU. I pay 200pw into what was borrowed for home loan and car loan, mostly b4 things went tits up.

my disposable income is shag all and if I knew then what I know now I don't I'd be doing this job at all. Not having a go at you just don't agree with your rationalising. nobody does a job for x amount of disposable income.

tayto lover

Whatever way each of you do it you have a poor lifestyle just like most workers.
Working to exist is not very funny at all. I did it in London in the 1970's. Lived on steak & kidney pies for months because I couldn't afford anything else. Never eat the bloody things since.

Chin up lads as it WILL turn.

Potential-Monke

Thing is though, it is for disposable income that you work for. Granted, without the loans you have a lot more disposable, but there's no one I know who doesn't have a loan of some sort.

When I got the loans, I had a lot more disposable income, and I never did a lot of overtime, if any at all, so it's the above figures which I've always worked off. I never imagined or expected that I would ever be in the situation where I don't have enough to pay for unexpected bills.