Sexism you deal with in everyday life? ***Mod Note in first post. Please read***

skyfall2012

clairefontaine wrote: »

Right. And suppressing and pushing it underground is a better idea?

Hate speech often comes down to personal taste, informed by class, race, religion, and personal barometers. Not to mention the idiots who can't distinguish between criticism and persecution.

Yes, the same way we try to suppress anti social behavior or anything else that impacts on society negatively.

Hate speech informed the white community in South Africa, but it was wrong and the black community had to put up a big fight against it, and won thankfully.

clairefontaine

skyfall2012 wrote: »

Yes, the same way we try to suppress anti social behavior or anything else that impacts on society negatively.

Hate speech informed the white community in South Africa, but it was wrong and the black community had to put up a big fight against it, and won thankfully.

You haven't been following what's happening there these days have you?

skyfall2012

clairefontaine wrote: »

You haven't been following what's happening there these days have you?

Does it impact this debate? If so, share.

Wibbs

As the thread title states this is a thread about personal accounts of sexism women deal with, so get it back on topic please.

Sleepy

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's not my position.

I pointed out an inconsistency. That inconsistency shows either that women don't have the same victim status that other so called oppressed do, or that it is even lower than that of other so called oppressed groups.

I'd see that as almost the exact opposite: that society views women as less oppressed than those groups. We still see cases of violence motivated by race or sexuality in Ireland but I can't recall anyone in Ireland being attacked on the sole basis of their gender. That said, I'd agree with jank that we're far more likely to achieve true equality via laws that are entirely gender / race / sexuality / religion / age neutral than by deeming assault against a woman/ Catholic / gay man to be more serious than that of a similar assault against the archetypal middle-class white man.

On the genderisaton of Lego issue mentioned earlier in this thread, this one is one that's depressed me somewhat as a father of a 4.5 year old girl. Despite massive encouragement from me and her older brother (I actually got a lego set as a Christmas present myself last year and she had more duplo than she knew what to do with as a two year old) she has very little interest in playing with lego unless it's a model that has already been built for her. I'd welcome suggestions as to what might encourage her to play with it more as I really believe it to be the best, if not at least one of the best, toys for a child's development.

Sorry if this post is a little O/T Wibbs. I've been reading this thread for the last few days and while there's some of it I'd classify as people looking for offence or taking people being assholes as them being sexist it's both interesting (and disappointing) to see so much of the stuff we really should be past as a society still out there.

One question I would have (and would hope to teach my daughter to think about) would be in relation to the mentions of women whose husbands/boyfriends behave in a sexist fashion: why on Earth would a woman raised in modern Ireland see such neanderthals as suitable partners?

Ambersky

Sexism I deal with in my everyday life.
It seems ever day I turn on the radio lately I am confronted with yet another display of sexism from within the Dail or now the Oireachtas.
Its not that each incident in itself is that bad, it is the idea that sexism is so institutionalised that even with television cameras on them, the men in these institutions, our leaders, still cant see sexism if it hit them in the face.
And it is hitting them in the face as the worlds media mirrors their behaviour back to them the following day.
They cant stop themselves and they cant appologise properly because they dont seem to know what it is to treat women as equals and they dont know what they are doing wrong.
David Norris instead of attacking the issue not the speaker accuses Regina Doherty of "speaking out of her fanny" and in case we might think he didnt mean it as an explicitly derogatory remark aimed at the state of being female, he goes on to snigger among his friends about “the Regina monologues". Today while he said he regretted "any offence" he caused, he did not explicitly apologise.
Looking at the videos for these recent episodes in the Dail and Oireachtas I feel personally upsetting as a woman to see how male orientated and woman unfriendly even these high offices actually are. There are simply too few women but why would women want to work in such an atmosphere and in such a culture.
Mind you my mornings radio listening did get worse, listening to Pat Kenny today there was a woman talking about the problem of the frequency of sexual attacks on women by gangs involved in the Arab Spring. These attacks ranged from sexual groping to rape with sharp objects, requiring the women to need reconstructive surgery. And I was only watching a documentary on TV last night where Arab women were saying the veil kept them safe from harm or from being looked at in a sexual way but not from being raped it seems.

There was a tread on here called Why I need feminism and I posted because I would almost feel crazy if there were no other feminists voices.
Its depressing to see the amount of hijacking of threads on Boards about anything to do with women's rights or feminism. I wont join in on many of the threads here because of that, with so few feminist voices it seems pointless. Im sure people will look back on these events and see them as markers of how attitudes were towards women in the 20 10s but at the moment commentators on forums like Boards seem to be treating it like its all a bit of harmless fun or "horseplay". Now David Norris's reference to a woman challenging the necessity of the Oireachtas, and therefore his job, as speaking through her fanny, has brought out all kinds of further cliched humour about women from commentators all over the net.
They say recent events have nothing to do with patriarchy or sexism because the idea of social constructs like that have been lost to the idea of individualism. I dont know what has to happen for sexism to be seen.

Amirani

I do agree with you about there being a fairly significant sexist culture in certain industries (of which politics seems to be one) Ambersky and there's been some prominent examples recently.

However, I don't believe David Norris' comments were sexist. He's used "fanny" many times previously to refer to the part of the anatomy that Americans would most associate with the word and this may or not be an example of this. Whether it is or not, it doesn't really qualify as sexism for me. It's hardly an attack on women or a discriminatory act. The other part of his rant was a harmless play on words.

It may not be in the greatest taste (and is perhaps offensive), but it's not sexism in my view.

Ambersky

For goodness sake David Norris is Irish not American, when will this apologetics stop. As I said anything could be done and there would be plenty of posters on here to say that they personally dont find anything sexist in it. Even here in the Ladies Lounge posters like me would have to keep on explaining sexism and I am not going to keep on doing it. I cant think of any example of sexism rape included that wouldnt be challenged as not being sexist. It is enough to keep hearing it on the radio and television what is the point of forums like this, this forum is daily sexism.
David Norris is very familiar with the kind of language used both here in Ireland and within the Gay Community, to denigrate women's presence, contributions or challenges by slagging off their gender or by using some kind of comment on womens anatomy that passes for ribald wit.
David Norris was also was heard to comment to his friends within the Oireachteas

Mr Norris said they now had “the Regina monologues. She’s not a wet week in the House and she’s talking through her fanny.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/regina-doherty-to-make-formal-complaint-over-norris-comments-1.1464414
His addition of Regina monologues shows only too clearly that he is referencing Vaginas and womens anatomy. Im just sick of both how common and apparently acceptable sexist behaviour is even in our highest institutions and I'm also sick of the defenses and denials around all this behaviour. Next we will have posters on here saying sexual assault isnt an expression of sexism it is a problem caused by over drinking in Ireland. Well of course we have that all the time thats why we have to have close moderation on subjects like that. I'm sick of it.

kylith

I'm shocked at David Norris. I would expect better behaviour than that from a man who wanted to be president.

Amirani

Ambersky wrote: »

Next we will have posters on here saying sexual assault isnt an expression of sexism it is a problem caused by over drinking in Ireland. Well of course we have that all the time thats why we have to have close moderation on subjects like that. I'm sick of it.

Sexual assault in itself isn't an expression of sexism. If it's only perpetrated against one gender then I'd agree. In some instances it might be (such as the incident in the Dáil the other day, as well as other common cases), but not in a general sense.

"Sexism" relates to either discrimination or devaluation based on gender the cultural attitudes that support it.

Throwing around the term for things that are instances of sexism trivialises it and cause it to be taken less seriously as a whole. Sexual assault is obviously a massive issue also, but the two shouldn't be used interchangeably.

Ambersky

I didnt intend to derail this thread by starting a discussion on recent events.
If anyone else feels like starting a thread please feel free to do so.
I haven't had the heart to contribute to the thread already started on what happened in the Dail and argue from a feminist position about events there because I believe I would then have to deal with all the sexism that would arise out of that.
I just wanted to post here in a thread that is suppose to be about the kind of sexism a woman has to deal with in her everyday life cos I am so fed up with it today.

Ambersky

How long did that take.
I dont want to be doin this, female perspective how are ye..
Like I said nothing is recognised as being an issue of sexism

NiallSparky says
Sexual assault in itself isn't an expression of sexism. If it's only perpetrated against one gender then I'd agree......

"Sexism" relates to either discrimination or devaluation based on gender the cultural attitudes that support it...

Throwing around the term for things that are instances of sexism trivialises it .

Just the first statistic I Googled

The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of rapists are male.[69] One of six U.S. women has experienced an attempted or completed rape

That is gender based violence and even if you look for other statistics you wont manage to get women victims even in developed countries out of the 80% range.
I could post link after link on women and sexual assault, on sexual violence against women being a global human rights issue and a feminist issue, a world wide problem but why am I even in the position of arguing this?

As I said nothing, nothing is considered sexist on this Board without a huge struggle, this is everyday sexism.
Its not evil or ill intentioned its just so common and thats the meaning of instutionalisation it is so much part of our culture we cant see it or anyone pointing it out is immediately challenged and corrected.

username123

NiallSparky wrote: »

I do agree with you about there being a fairly significant sexist culture in certain industries (of which politics seems to be one) Ambersky and there's been some prominent examples recently.

However, I don't believe David Norris' comments were sexist. He's used "fanny" many times previously to refer to the part of the anatomy that Americans would most associate with the word and this may or not be an example of this. Whether it is or not, it doesn't really qualify as sexism for me. It's hardly an attack on women or a discriminatory act. The other part of his rant was a harmless play on words.

It may not be in the greatest taste (and is perhaps offensive), but it's not sexism in my view.

This is nonsense. Clearly Norris was being sexist. Its perfectly obvious that he used the term fanny in the sense of the Irish meaning of the word - a slang word for the vagina. I dont know any Irish people who use the term fanny to mean bum as it is used in the States. He also used The Regina Monologues to reference the vagina.

How would it be seen if Regina Doherty told Norris that he was talking out of his cock and balls and that they now had The Penis Monologues going on?

Vojera

I got a flight home from the UK this weekend and there was a stag on it, well cut, rowdy, the usual. While we were waiting to de-plane one of the men pointed at a girl and shouted to his friend "Imagine getting the ride off that". Not even "her". "That".

drumswan

username123 wrote: »

How would it be seen if Regina Doherty told Norris that he was talking out of his cock and balls and that they now had The Penis Monologues going on?

Honestly? Nobody would care.

Amirani

username123 wrote: »

How would it be seen if Regina Doherty told Norris that he was talking out of his cock and balls and that they now had The Penis Monologues going on?

Not as sexism in my view. No discrimination has taken place. I wouldn't feel personally attacked as a male if Doherty had said something like that.

As I've said before, combating sexism is something I feel very strongly about. I just don't feel it was a sexist comment. It was in poor taste, but not inherently sexist.

Amirani

Ambersky wrote: »

That is gender based violence and even if you look for other statistics you wont manage to get women victims even in developed countries out of the 80% range.
I could post link after link on women and sexual assault, on sexual violence against women being a global human rights issue and a feminist issue, a world wide problem but why am I even in the position of arguing this?

I agree with this. Sexual assault and rape disproportionately affect women and it is a massive issue. It's probably semantics, but I wouldn't consider either of those crimes inherently sexist on their own. What I would consider sexist would be their prevalence and casual cultural acceptance of them in some cases.

username123

NiallSparky wrote: »

Not as sexism in my view. No discrimination has taken place. I wouldn't feel personally attacked as a male if Doherty had said something like that.

I dont know how - women dont have a cock and balls - of course it would be an attack on you as a male, just like Norris attacked Doherty as a female specifically. If he simply wanted to be offensive he could have said that she was talking out of her arse - not her vagina. We all have arses.

YumCha

Ambersky wrote: »

Its depressing to see the amount of hijacking of threads on Boards about anything to do with women's rights or feminism.

This x1000

Has happened in every single personal experiences thread in TLL I've ever seen (case in point right here), plus the sexual assault one - which was especially horrendous.

It's funny the amount of posters who will ignore the charter, warnings, and the forum they're in just so they can waltz in and mansplain to us how our experiences aren't valid, or whine 'what about the menz?'

I've tried reporting every post but honestly I'm just tired of it... as someone who was sexually assaulted by an ex, groped and intimidated by strangers, and discriminated against in the workplace I would just like to have a safe space on here to discuss these things.

La_Gordy

^^^

Well said YumCha. Though I'm actively expecting someone to attempt to mansplain your post away

username123

YumCha wrote: »

It's funny the amount of posters who will ignore the charter, warnings, and the forum they're in just so they can waltz in and mansplain to us how our experiences aren't valid, or whine 'what about the menz?'

La_Gordy wrote: »

Though I'm actively expecting someone to attempt to mansplain your post away

Do the highlighted terms not just switch the sexism back in the other direction? If you think sexism is a bad thing, then why promote it with the language you yourself use?

La_Gordy

Et voila.

username123

La_Gordy wrote: »

Et voila.

Im a woman.

coffee_cake

I agree there is a problem with men waltzing in undermining us - but "mansplaining" isn't constructive language imo, and pointing that out is not sexism or undermining

Ambersky

But which of those two issues will we devote the most time and energy to. Men waltzing in undermining us or the kind of language used to express exasperation at its ongoing nature.

coffee_cake

The latter, I should hope. The former should be moderated and ignored like any tantrum

username123

Ambersky wrote: »

But which of those two issues will we devote the most time and energy to. Men waltzing in undermining us or the kind of language used to express exasperation at its ongoing nature.

If we are going to be talking about sexism at all I think its important that we do focus on sexist language. It is possible to complain that men come in and try to undermine valid sexist experiences without resorting to using sexist language to make that complaint. Otherwise its just hypocritical imo.

Ambersky

So the language it is then. Same old, same old.

coffee_cake

La_Gordy wrote: »

Et voila.

Ambersky wrote: »

So the language it is then. Same old, same old.

I don't think this is really getting us anywhere

Femme_Fatale

I really can't see what was sexist about what Norris said. Genuinely. Crude and unprofessional language, that's about it. It's strange - in the Blurred Lines thread people are mostly defending what are clearly sleazy lyrics and a sleazy vid; far worse than what Norris said IMO.