Does the abortion debate reveal what some people really think about women?

Fizzlesque

username123 wrote: »

Jesus christ, I cannot believe I just read that - and that it actually happened!!! All I can say is that anyone who said that to you or thought that of you was a complete moron and by the sounds of it a sociopath as well!! I am so glad that this attitude has been in a minority but sorry you had to suffer it at all.

This is very powerful and there must be women for whom it is only dread also. Its very difficult. I hope she makes contact.

Thank you, username, the people who said that to me weren't people in my life, they were just people I knew, and, although one of them managed to upset me at the time (I was also strong enough to know they were talking out of their hats on a subject they knew nothing about. Ironically, if anything, the person who did manage to hurt me, also helped me, because the internal defense dialogue that ensued brought me a bit closer to beginning the (continuously ongoing) process of forgiving myself.

Thanks also for your wish for me that my daughter makes contact. She has written to me a handful of times, short notes, but gold to me. They also encouraged the process of forgiving myself, which I can facilitate only so much, the last bit remains in my daughter's hands. However, I don't waste the time while I wait, I make a conscious effort to become the best I can be, so when/if she decides one day she'd like to get to know me, I have the best of me to offer her. I remain hopeful all will turn out well, I'm a ridiculous optimist by nature, I strive to have an abundance of love and kindness as my key to success (I'm a bit of a hippy at heart ) and know if my daughter has inherited any of my thoughts on that subject (and hasn't suffered any abuse or neglect: the biggest worry) we'll do just fine.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Fizzalesque,

Your post makes me really sad. It makes me sad because I read it that the adoption really wasn't a choice for you, but an extension of your father's abuse to make you give up your child and the kind of abuse that will hurt you over and over again without him having to say a word or lift a finger. It's unfathomably cruel.

I'm sorry I made you feel sad, clairefontaine. To be fair to my father, he wasn't the abusive one, he was the one who neglected to protect me from my stepmother's abuse. He is a good man who allowed himself to be blinded to things, who thought it was the best choice. As result of my unhappy childhood, I retreated into myself a lot, so much so my stepmother exclaimed (when we had our 'let's sort the past out' chat, many years ago now) --- "I used think you were retarded, but now I see you were actually quite deep, there's a lot more to you than we see"). I could be silent for long periods of time back then. My brothers thought I was a bit dizzy, and my father thought I was, well...suffice to say, he often voiced unflattering sentiments about my ability to cope with the real world, completely unaware of the damage his barbed comments were doing to me.

Last year we had a birthday bash for my father's 70th. During the meal, my father, who was sitting next to me, mentioned my daughter and said "why isn't [daughter's name] here, it's a pity she's not here". And then told me he misses her very much (which he does) but this upset me, and I told him that we didn't "share" this pain equally and excused myself to go outside and scab a cigarette to smoke the first cigarette I'd smoked in 6 months.

I talked to him about it later, and told him he'd upset me because I partly blamed him for ever suggesting adoption, as well as his ever so gentle manipulation, even though the decision rested firmly in my hands, which it did; it was me who made the choice. He admitted that he now realises I probably could/would have made a fair stab at mothering my child, but also mentioned the risks, which did also exist. Thing is, and it's a killer, it's impossible to know which decision was the right decision, how it would have turned out. I don't know if the self destructive road I eventually wandered down (I've clawed my way back from a dark place) came about as result of my daughter's adoption or if I had a dark road to travel and my daughter would have suffered if I'd brought her with me.

You're right about the being able to hurt me over and over again - there has been a lot I've had to sort out with my dad about the past, and I've given him both barrels on many occasions, but we're good now, we're friends who love and like each other.

As I keep saying, whenever I post on this subject, there's a lot that never gets said about the consequences of choosing adoption, its tentacles are far reaching. Not everyone realises this truth.

PS. I'm glad you came back to the conversation - I enjoy your posts and your contributions to the discussion.

krankykitty

dark crystal wrote: »

I don't believe anyone on this thread implied it was a simple decision at all.

True, not on this thread specifically, but it is something that gets put out there a lot in the arguments against abortion; sure why would you not put the baby up for adoption (as if that solves everything and there should be no need for abortion legislation). When perhaps those who suggest it haven't actually thought about (or maybe just don't know) the very real lifelong and often heartbreaking consequences of that decision.

Going back to the original topic of the thread - maybe that reveals what some people really think about women - that they should be punished for having an unwanted pregnancy. They want to remove the choice for abortion, yet if the woman goes through with the pregnancy but doesn't keep the baby, that too can be a lifelong burden.

Fizzlesque

krankykitty wrote: »

Going back to the original topic of the thread - maybe that reveals what some people really think about women - that they should be punished for having an unwanted pregnancy. They want to remove the choice for abortion, yet if the woman goes through with the pregnancy but doesn't keep the baby, that too can be a lifelong burden.

I've often got that feeling too, that there's an element of 'punishment' hanging about the air. A sort of 'you made your bed...' finger wagging. Especially among those who oppose abortion except in the instances of rape. Suddenly it's not really about the fetus, it's about how much 'blame' can be attached to the pregnant woman.

clairefontaine

Fizzlesque wrote: »

I've often got that feeling too, that there's an element of 'punishment' hanging about the air. A sort of 'you made your bed...' finger wagging. Especially among those who oppose abortion except in the instances of rape. Suddenly it's not really about the fetus, it's about how much 'blame' can be attached to the pregnant woman.

Those who oppose abortion and scorn adoption really need to pull up their pants, dig in and do more to help those in these situations, otherwise they need to shut it.

People don't need criticism they need help.

Morag

They could start by lobbing for proper sex ed in all schools to start with.

Fizzlesque

Morag wrote: »

They could start by lobbing for proper sex ed in all schools to start with.

Absolutely. I don't know what it's like now, but when I was in school, our one and only sex ed was a talk about periods, and sanitary solutions to periods. That was it!

Fizzlesque

dark crystal wrote: »

I don't believe anyone on this thread implied it was a simple decision at all.


I absolutely applaud Fizzalesque for being so open and honest about her experience. We talk about others judging our decisions, but sometimes there can be no harsher judge than ourselves.

I really hope the future holds much happiness for you and you find the peace you need to heal. You deserve it

Cheers, dark crystal.

Spot on about the harshest judge being ourselves - like you've got your own little turncoat snugly fitted inside.

eviltwin

Fizzlesque I don't know what to say after reading your story, I am just in awe of you and I wish you hadn't had to go through that. I'm glad to read that there is contact with your daughter and I hope it continues and grows and that you can develop a relationship with her. She'd be very lucky to have you in her life.

Both my best friends are adopted, both in their 30's now and only starting to feel able to make contact with their birth mothers. Both have and its a slow process but its moving in the right direction. They were lucky to be adopted by really lovely people and have had normal happy lives but they bear the scars of adoption. It hasn't been easy for them and they have a lot of things to work through.

I agree with KrankyKitty in her post, some pro life groups do have a habit of mentioning adoption in a throwaway kind of way as though its the obvious solution to an unplanned pregnancy. They don't seem to acknowledge the huge emotional impact of it on both the child and the birth mother ( and the wider family ) Having read Fizzlesque posts I feel so angry that they treat it as such, what a terrible insult to Fizzlesque and women like her and all they go through :mad:

username123

eviltwin wrote: »

I agree with KrankyKitty in her post, some pro life groups do have a habit of mentioning adoption in a throwaway kind of way as though its the obvious solution to an unplanned pregnancy. They don't seem to acknowledge the huge emotional impact of it on both the child and the birth mother ( and the wider family ) Having read Fizzlesque posts I feel so angry that they treat it as such, what a terrible insult to Fizzlesque and women like her and all they go through :mad:

+1

Agree on many points being made here. The one about how a woman should be punished for her behaviour is a strong point, I completely agree that abortion should not be predicated on how the pregnancy came to be, to do so is just to make a judgment on the morality of the woman - oh its ok to have an abortion if you were raped or a victim of incest, but if you enjoyed some good sex and got pregnant you cant have one. Its simply warped thinking imo.

Agree on proper sex education - and also availability to contraception, we are in the dark ages on this. Affordability is a big issue for long term contraception for women. For example, I simply cannot afford the outlay for the long term contraception my GP wants me to get.

Why are more long term contraceptive methods not available through the public system - surely this would be more cost effective for the government than paying child support, and would also prevent the need for some abortions or adoptions, AND would be a facilitator to ask women if they are up to date on smears etc... It makes nothing but sense yet its not in place.

Fizzlesque

krankykitty wrote: »

Fizzalesque, I just wanted to say I feel sad after reading your post, what you went through must have been (and be) so incredibly hard. I wish everyone who rolls out the "but what about Adoption" as an argument could read your story to see what it's not a simple solution but something that will affect numerous people so much throughout their lives. Thank you for sharing it with us. I hope you get your peace (hugs)

Thank you for your kind words, krankykitty, and sorry for making you feel sad. It's not all doom and gloom, there's still plenty to smile about. But you're right though, those who roll out the "but what about Adoption" as an argument don't always strike me as being aware of just how enormous and 'unsimple a solution' this option they're suggesting is.

clairefontaine

username123 wrote: »

+1

Agree on many points being made here. The one about how a woman should be punished for her behaviour is a strong point, I completely agree that abortion should not be predicated on how the pregnancy came to be, to do so is just to make a judgment on the morality of the woman - oh its ok to have an abortion if you were raped or a victim of incest, but if you enjoyed some good sex and got pregnant you cant have one. Its simply warped thinking imo.

The approval of abortion in the wake of rape or incest makes the least logical sense of the lot. Pro life thinks adoption is a preferable choice to ending a human life. So it's a human life or it isn't. Being the product of rape or incest doesn't make it any less of a life than if conceived from consensual sex.

Where this might be reasoned out though, is the idea of authority and power. Obviously not in Ireland but in other countries, women have the authority to end their pregnancies. In Ireland they can put an end to motherhood. And like any other position of authority, whether a judge or politician, teacher, when you apply your authority to morally charged decisions, you are going to take heat for it because you have the power to change other people's destinies outside of your own, namely the child's and arguable the father's too. This is just the nature of having power. You will get blame, you will get judged. [How the woman is perceived however can modify this - whether she is seen as a victim, or whether she is seen as a slut or whether she is seen as flippant.]

So if your pregnancy derives from outside your authority as in the case of rape, where that power is taken from you, they might argue a mitigating circumstance in which a "this was not really your doing" therefore you don't have to take full responsibility for ending your pregnancy and the life you are carrying.

Fizzlesque

eviltwin wrote: »

Fizzlesque I don't know what to say after reading your story, I am just in awe of you and I wish you hadn't had to go through that. I'm glad to read that there is contact with your daughter and I hope it continues and grows and that you can develop a relationship with her. She'd be very lucky to have you in her life.

Both my best friends are adopted, both in their 30's now and only starting to feel able to make contact with their birth mothers. Both have and its a slow process but its moving in the right direction. They were lucky to be adopted by really lovely people and have had normal happy lives but they bear the scars of adoption. It hasn't been easy for them and they have a lot of things to work through.

I agree with KrankyKitty in her post, some pro life groups do have a habit of mentioning adoption in a throwaway kind of way as though its the obvious solution to an unplanned pregnancy. They don't seem to acknowledge the huge emotional impact of it on both the child and the birth mother ( and the wider family ) Having read Fizzlesque posts I feel so angry that they treat it as such, what a terrible insult to Fizzlesque and women like her and all they go through :mad:

Thanks, eviltwin, I always love to hear stories of adoptees being reunited with their birthmothers. For obvious reasons, it fills my heart with hope. It's not an easy thing, for anyone concerned, and I include the adoptive parents in that - there are many people to be considered. More than meets the casual commentator's eye a lot of the time.

pwurple

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Thank you for your kind words, krankykitty, and sorry for making you feel sad. It's not all doom and gloom, there's still plenty to smile about. But you're right though, those who roll out the "but what about Adoption" as an argument don't always strike me as being aware of just how enormous and 'unsimple a solution' this option they're suggesting is.

If it's worth anything Fizzlesque, I was delighted to see your post. Nothing could be better than such great openness about things that remain hushed up. Anyone making these sorts of decisions needs to be fully aware of as many of the consequences to their situation as possible.

Roadtrippin

Morag wrote: »

All the floodgates and slippery slope shíte annoys me, we already have the same abortion rate per capita as other eu countries, 12 women a day travel to the UK for abortion.

Totally agree with you. Anybody that has ever spoken to any woman that went through an abortion knows that most women don't take the decision to go for an abortion lightly. In fact it often torments them for the rest of their lives. So all this rhetoric about floodgates opening, abortion on demand and slippery slopes is BS if you ask me.
Women that want an abortion, get them - just not in Ireland.

People claiming that women will just fake being suicidal in order to get abortions deeply offend me. I have yet to meet a single person, man or woman, that faked being suicidal so were does this ridiculous idea come from?

Morag

I think torments is a very strong word to use.
I think that we don't forget it, that we always remember the dates and it's a road not take
type of thing. Just cos something comes to mind doesn't mean we are tormented by it.

If how ever you are using the word torment to talk about how we are talked about and how when your a bit emotional cos it's coming up to that time of year and we get youth defense leaflets shoved at us or in our letter boxes, then I don't think your that far off the mark.

clairefontaine

Morag wrote: »

I think torments is a very strong word to use.
I think that we don't forget it, that we always remember the dates and it's a road not take
type of thing. Just cos something comes to mind doesn't mean we are tormented by it.

If how ever you are using the word torment to talk about how we are talked about and how when your a bit emotional cos it's coming up to that time of year and we get youth defense leaflets shoved at us or in our letter boxes, then I don't think your that far off the mark.

Im not familiar with a universal group think consensus on this one.

It depends entirely on the woman. Maybe some are tormented and for others it just is at the back of their minds.

Morag

clairefontaine wrote: »

It depends entirely on the woman. Maybe some are tormented and for others it just is at the back of their minds.

The rhetoric of being tormented about their choice is one used by the anti choice side, a lot. It's used as propaganda when you are right it's down to a range of more complex circumstances.

Most women I know regret that their life circumstances were such that they were when they had to make that choice, but still don't regret the choice they made.

Roadtrippin

Morag wrote: »

I think torments is a very strong word to use.
I think that we don't forget it, that we always remember the dates and it's a road not take
type of thing. Just cos something comes to mind doesn't mean we are tormented by it.

If how ever you are using the word torment to talk about how we are talked about and how when your a bit emotional cos it's coming up to that time of year and we get youth defense leaflets shoved at us or in our letter boxes, then I don't think your that far off the mark.

Yes, torment is a strong word. I obviously can't make blanket statements about all women so I am sure not all are 'tormented' as such after an abortion. And just to be clear - I am pro-choice so am not using that word as some sort of propaganda to convince anyone of how bad abortion is.

The point I was trying to make is that women don't make that kind of decision about abortion lightly and certainly not without it affecting them in one way or another. Anyone talking about slippery slopes and implying that women will see abortion as a new kind of contraception and that they would have a massive increase of abortions is very mistaken IMO.

After reading Fizzlesque's sad story about adoption, I also think that the pro-lifers need to read more stories like that to see just how hard adoption can be for the individuals involved and that it isn't always an easy alternative to an abortion either.
I met a girl that gave up her baby for adoption after being raped. She was tormented by that for the rest of her live and regretted her decision when she was older. In retrospect, she thought she would have kept the baby if given half a chance.

lazygal

Morag wrote: »

The rhetoric of being tormented about their choice is one used by the anti choice side, a lot. It's used as propaganda when you are right it's down to a range of more complex circumstances.

Most women I know regret that their life circumstances were such that they were when they had to make that choice, but still don't regret the choice they made.

I think its a total fallacy to claim that every single woman agonises over whether to have an abortion, and is affected for life should they opt for one. I know with absolute certainty I'd have no hesitation about having an abortion in certain circumstances. We've discussed the circumstances and my husband would be in total support of me. That's not to say I might feel differently when presented with such a scenario but I don't think I would. For some women, abortion is an easy choice, and there's nothing wrong with that, surely? Why shouldn't a woman find such a choice easy? I referred to Caitlin Moran earlier in the thread, who said her abortion was one of the easiest decisions she made and has no regrets about it. I hate this narrative of 'post abortion syndrome' the anti choice side trots out, like pregnancy, labour and birth doesn't leave anyone with side effects.

I know someone who's setting up a group for women affected by traumatic births in Ireland and she has been swamped with horrifying stories, and she's only just starting to collect them. I hate that abortion is presented as this tragic, awful, agonizing situation, where a woman has searched her soul for days and weeks before reluctantly having the procedure, only to immediately regret it for the rest of her life. I remember reading about women who'd had abortions in the UK in the Guardian, and most said the feeling afterwards was one of total and utter relief that the crisis pregnancy was over and they didn't have any long term regrets or difficulties.

I also don't like when people say 'I support the right to choose, but I'd never have one'. Why do people feel the need to say they wouldn't have one? Is it because they secretly don't think its the right thing to do, but they can't openly say it?

eviltwin

lazygal wrote: »

I also don't like when people say 'I support the right to choose, but I'd never have one'. Why do people feel the need to say they wouldn't have one? Is it because they secretly don't think its the right thing to do, but they can't openly say it?

That really bugs me too...I suppose I can understand why people are saying it. What I'm guessing is they mean they have no vested interest in making abortion legal becasue they wouldn't need to avail of it themselves but I wonder do they realise how it sounds. Its almost like a judgement of the women who do and I really do believe you never know what you are going to do unless you are in that situation.

On the torment thing if you have a crisis pregnancy no matter the outcome its going to be emotional etc. It doesn't mean regret though, I had terrible pnd after my kids were born but that doesn't mean I wish I hadn't had them. Its just an emotional response that has to be worked through. Any woman still suffering years after an abortion needs help asap, there is no reason why she has to be left with that legacy.

Morag

'I support the right to choose, but I'd never have one'

Well I support the right of people to get their belly button peiced but I'd never have one.

I don't have an issue with either of those statements and I don't' mean to be flippant about abortions, I see it as being the same as heterosexual people being supportive of marriage equality.

lazygal

lazygal wrote: »

I also don't like when people say 'I support the right to choose, but I'd never have one'. Why do people feel the need to say they wouldn't have one? Is it because they secretly don't think its the right thing to do, but they can't openly say it?

You do people a disservice if you assume they are being less than open when they make that statement. It's a reasonable statement just voicing that they recognise something might not be right for them, but that doesn't mean they don't support other peoples right to choose what's right for themselves.

It's not right to infer some sort of judgemental bias behind it, or to infer they are secretly feeling something else.

Malari

Yeah I agree with Candie, I don't think it's a judgemental statement, I think it's just emphasising that even though they personally may not agree they will defend other's right to choice.

clairefontaine

Morag wrote: »

The rhetoric of being tormented about their choice is one used by the anti choice side, a lot. It's used as propaganda when you are right it's down to a range of more complex circumstances.

Most women I know regret that their life circumstances were such that they were when they had to make that choice, but still don't regret the choice they made.

Well, I still think it's up to the individual and not up to someone to assume the feelings of all woman who have had abortions. I'm sure some might be tormented and some might just brush it off.

I know women too, and it all depends, it doesn't mean the women I know, even "most of them" can be selectively abstracted to represent all women who have had an abortion.

And on either side of the scale I know a woman who had an abortion because she was pregnant with a girl and wanted a boy and thinks nothing of it and another woman who deeply deeply regrets her decision 40 years later and is haunted by it.

Morag

I mention it to contract the persuasive propaganda that all women are tormented and the myth about PAS.

Never claimed to be speaking for every woman ever :rolleyes:

HHobo

Malari wrote: »

Yeah I agree with Candie, I don't think it's a judgemental statement, I think it's just emphasising that even though they personally may not agree they will defend other's right to choice.

What I don't understand is why it matters at all if it is judgemental. If somone honestly thinks abortion is wrong, they are going to judge someone having one as someone who has done a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with that. Especially if they have maturity and sense to understand that their particular moral view doen't trump other peoples rights.
If someone is an ally in the struggle to obtain certain rights, there shouldn't also be a requirement for them to approve of the behaviour.

People judge other people who judge to be judgemental people, but having judged they are now also judgemental. One big happy universally judgemental family!

HHobo

HHobo wrote: »

People judge other people who judge to be judgemental people, but having judged they are now also judgemental. One big happy universally judgemental family!

There's already more than enough judgement in the world without inferring it where it isn't implied.

HHobo

Candie wrote: »

There's already more than enough judgement in the world without inferring it where it isn't implied.

I feel judged!

You shouldn't go around judging people! It's mean! ........ DOH!

eviltwin

HHobo wrote: »

What I don't understand is why it matters at all if it is judgemental. If somone honestly thinks abortion is wrong, they are going to judge someone having one as someone who has done a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with that. Especially if they have maturity and sense to understand that their particular moral view doen't trump other peoples rights.
If someone is an ally in the struggle to obtain certain rights, there shouldn't also be a requirement for them to approve of the behaviour.

People judge other people who judge to be judgemental people, but having judged they are now also judgemental. One big happy universally judgemental family!

Maybe people should hate the sin and not the sinner?

HHobo

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe people should hate the sin and not the sinner?

Yeah. That's exactly it!

On an aside, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?