What is the healthiest meat and bread to make a sandwich with?

Aquarius34

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

It's amazing how defensive people get when told bread is unhealthy. There is no other food that elicits such fervent attachment, that says something I think.

Long fermented home-made sourdough bread made from fresh ground wheat can be healthy and nutritious. But no-one goes to that much effort for a sandwich.

Every single bread, and I mean every-single one in the supermarket is made with bleached, chemically treated white flour, even mccambridges.

You can get sprouted rye-bread in some health food shops, but it tastes no-where near as nice as regular bread, and there's a really good reason for that. The white flour is what tastes really good, hence why you'll never find a commercial bread made without it.

Is one sandwich a week gonna kill you? Probably not. But the fact remains that Irish society relies way too much on wheat. If you give up bread you notice how pervasive it is and how annoyingly difficult it is to avoid it.




Thick flat rice noodles make a great pasta alternative, like tagliatelle.



Beer's probably not that bad for non-coeliacs as it's very fermented.

Wheat was always fermented in the past to make it nutritious. Now it almost never is.

Bread is not nutritious, its a staple slave mans food. It's what it was invented for. It's cheap, easy to make, easy to cook and easy to eat with other foods. Wheat is not really nutritious. 99% of wheat to today is heavily GM and processed now. Which further defeats the argument. Wheat has gluten which is not good for our bodies at all. Our bodies are naturally wheat intolerant and many people are allergic to wheat.

The question, is what is healthy to eat. If you want to have a staple low nutritious diet, then wheat is ok, but that's not the kind thread this is for.

thegreatiam

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Sorry I missed that part. Lettuce.:pac:

Oh God. It would be hard to make a lettuce sandwich and actually eat itt without it falling all over the place. I am glad I missed that point, a lettuce sandwich is ridiculous.

yuk sung says hi.

Gummy Panda

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Sorry I missed that part. Lettuce.:pac:

Oh God. It would be hard to make a lettuce sandwich and actually eat itt without it falling all over the place. I am glad I missed that point, a lettuce sandwich is ridiculous.

Gunslinger wrap

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the hardest part of using lettuce as a wrap is only getting 4-5 useable pieces out of an entire head because they keep ****ing tearing

El_Dangeroso

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Bread is not nutritious, its a staple slave mans food. It's what it was invented for. It's cheap, easy to make, easy to cook and easy to eat with other foods. Wheat is not really nutritious. 99% of wheat to today is heavily GM and processed now. Which further defeats the argument. Wheat has gluten which is not good for our bodies at all. Our bodies are naturally wheat intolerant and many people are allergic to wheat.

The question, is what is healthy to eat. If you want to have a staple low nutritious diet, then wheat is ok, but that's not the kind thread this is for.

Actually IF it is treated properly it can be (magnesium, b vitamins, betaine), but it almost never is. Potatoes are also 'poor people food' and are very nutritious, ditto a lot of organ meats.

Orla K

Knockout_91 wrote: »

Thank you for proving my point. The point is you do drink occasionally. Jägerbombs are not good for you.

Pretend the OP eats bread occasionally, just like you drink occasionally, now what bread would you recommend him to have?

Thank you for ignoring all the other points I made and just focusing on what suits you.

If that's how your brain works then there is no point even talking to you because your only going to hear what you want to hear.

I said it before in the thread eat bread if you want but don't fool yourself into thinking it's healthy.

You also can't compare my 'drinking' to the OPs bread eating since I only go out once or twice a year and drink (not much) red wine. I highly doubt the OP eats bread as little as I drink.

Aquarius34

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Actually IF it is treated properly it can be (magnesium, b vitamins, betaine), but it almost never is. Potatoes are also 'poor people food' and are very nutritious, ditto a lot of organ meats.

The wheat that is used is mass produced, GMO and mixed other foodstuff that are not so good for you. The point about this thread, is if you are looking for an healthy option, bread is not the item you'd pick off the shelf.

gctest50

Aquarius34 wrote: »

The wheat that is used is mass produced, GMO and mixed other foodstuff that are not so good for you. The point about this thread, is if you are looking for an healthy option, bread is not the item you'd pick off the shelf.

Just to add to the goodness:


http://www.allotment.org.uk/recipes/bread-making/chorleywood-process

siochain

It’s not just about the bread it’s about wheat and most grains. Wheat and most grains have been genetically modified to produce more and survive in various weather conditions. So much so that it has very little resemblance to the wheat man consumed 300 years go. Wheat is in the majority of processed food stuffs and its helping to turn us into a nation of fat dudes. Wheat causes high insulin response which in turn contributes to making fat abdomens and fats asses. Weight gain is primarily related to calorie consumption but it also related to the levels of insulin floating around when we consume those calories. White bread has a higher GI & GL than sugar. http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/glycemic-index.....

If you went to a marathon or to and amateur triathlon you would see plenty if not majority having either a fat belly or fat ass, how can this be with all the working out they do? Reason sugar and wheat consumption. Check out the poorest nations and regions in the world where they rely on grains as their primary food source, this results in malnutrition all round and fat\obese adults.

Transform posted earlier and described the effect eliminating wheat has had on his clients. I have seen this in many cases too for people wanting to lose weight and or increase the sporting performance. More importantly I have seen very positive effects on people’s health profiles, such as better HDL/LDL ratios, better triglyceride levels, elimination of migraines. These were people that had tried a range of dietary changes and various supplements the one change that made a difference was giving up wheat. I know of one kid who was diagnosed with ADHD and the doc’s of course prescribed Adderall the mother was reluctant and went spent several months looking into alternatives, when they decided to eliminate wheat the kid started to make progress after two weeks and continues to do so and he is now out of special needs care and into a standard primary school class.

As I said in an earlier post do the research and give it up for two weeks and see how you get on. You have nothing to lose only a belly.

Personally I can say I’ve never been leaner and my recovery from training sessions has gone through the roof since giving up wheat.

Plenty of interesting reading here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

Transform

siochain wrote: »

It’s not just about the bread it’s about wheat and most grains. Wheat and most grains have been genetically modified to produce more and survive in various weather conditions. So much so that it has very little resemblance to the wheat man consumed 300 years go. Wheat is in the majority of processed food stuffs and its helping to turn us into a nation of fat dudes. Wheat causes high insulin response which in turn contributes to making fat abdomens and fats asses. Weight gain is primarily related to calorie consumption but it also related to the levels of insulin floating around when we consume those calories. White bread has a higher GI & GL than sugar. http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/glycemic-index.....

If you went to a marathon or to and amateur triathlon you would see plenty if not majority having either a fat belly or fat ass, how can this be with all the working out they do? Reason sugar and wheat consumption. Check out the poorest nations and regions in the world where they rely on grains as their primary food source, this results in malnutrition all round and fat\obese adults.

Transform posted earlier and described the effect eliminating wheat has had on his clients. I have seen this in many cases too for people wanting to lose weight and or increase the sporting performance. More importantly I have seen very positive effects on people’s health profiles, such as better HDL/LDL ratios, better triglyceride levels, elimination of migraines. These were people that had tried a range of dietary changes and various supplements the one change that made a difference was giving up wheat. I know of one kid who was diagnosed with ADHD and the doc’s of course prescribed Adderall the mother was reluctant and went spent several months looking into alternatives, when they decided to eliminate wheat the kid started to make progress after two weeks and continues to do so and he is now out of special needs care and into a standard primary school class.

As I said in an earlier post do the research and give it up for two weeks and see how you get on. You have nothing to lose only a belly.

Personally I can say I’ve never been leaner and my recovery from training sessions has gone through the roof since giving up wheat.

Plenty of interesting reading here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

bang on and i might add that i have worked with a type 1 fully dependent diabetic for years (almost 50yrs old now) and elimination of wheat has had such a massive effect that his doctor thought his machine was not working.

Yes an individual example but i could ramble on all day with the positive effects i have see daily.

Anyone can make big changes in 50 days but its keeping it up for the next 500 that requires daily reminders

Dan133269

Ok, I'm just trying to understand this a bit better. If wheat is so bad, why are the stickies in the Health and Fitness Forum littered with incorrect information such as the following?

Posted by Transform:

1. Eat whole non-processed foods - no junk food, white bread, dried pasta, cereals (except poridge and meusli), bagels, cakes, choc (only 70% coca), biscuits

Don't eat white bread, so presumably brown and wholegrain are ok?

tribulus

Bring an extra meal with you - you never know when you might be held up in work/college/traffic etc, bring something healthy with you, like a brown bread sandwich with turkey and cheese to munch on instead of being "forced" to buy a chocolate bar and a bag of crisps.

Jak

Some Diet Options and Ideas

1) Tuna Casserole. Boil pasta, add tuna and mayonaise and mic thouroughly. This is really filling but has all the essentials. Feel free to add cold olive oil to it.

4) Tuna sambos - I mix up tuna and onion in a lunch box and leave it in the fridge for lunch. In the morning stick some wholegrain bread in the toaster and when popped just take a lump of tuna from the fridge and put it in your sambos. Bring a tomatoe in with you and slice it just before eating the sambo to avoid soggy bread syndrome.

gem

Supermarket items:
wholemeal pitta bread
wholemeal/ seeded bread/ bagels
Bulgar wheat/ cous cous

I thought the stickies were the holy-grail of health and fitness information. From what has been said in this thread regarding the disadvantages of wheat, it is not a recent discovery. So why the reversal of opinion here compared to the stickies? I'm not questioning the posts of those who have said wheat is bad, just curious as to why there is such inconsistency. By the way, I only looked at page 1 of the stickies and found that, perhaps there is more there.

Stench Blossoms

I don't think the stickies are the holy grail.

I was actually only thinking about this a few days ago.

I don't think anyone should be allowed post in them because what's to say that what I think is healthy someone else doesn't? But that would be very hard to moderate.

Also those posts could be quite old and users have changed their minds since posting them.

siochain

Dan133269, life and knowledge is an ever evolving journey.

Advice on any forum should never be taken as the 100% definitive answer and the correct way to go. As I would always point out if you see some advice that might work for you try it out, if it works great, if not back to the drawing board.

kloc

The important thing is to have protein with every meal to balance blood sugars which bread will raise. Other sources of protein that you could try would be hummus, sardines, mackerel, free range chicken breast or turkey ;-) and nut butters are lovely too, I particularly like the almond as savoury and the hazelnut as sweet.. Just a few other options you could try as it can get boring..

--Kaiser--

Dan133269 wrote: »

I thought the stickies were the holy-grail of health and fitness information. From what has been said in this thread regarding the disadvantages of wheat, it is not a recent discovery. So why the reversal of opinion here compared to the stickies? I'm not questioning the posts of those who have said wheat is bad, just curious as to why there is such inconsistency. By the way, I only looked at page 1 of the stickies and found that, perhaps there is more there.

Well, the stickies are the 'conventional wisdom' around nutrition, the same sort of stuff you might see in adverts for cereals ("heart healthy grains" and "cholestrol-lowering doo-das"). When presented with evidence that things they have believed for a long time are lies, people tend to get angry and dismissive (as can be seen in this thread)

thegreatiam

Dan133269 wrote: »

Ok, I'm just trying to understand this a bit better. If wheat is so bad, why are the stickies in the Health and Fitness Forum littered with incorrect information such as the following?

Posted by Transform:


Don't eat white bread, so presumably brown and wholegrain are ok?

tribulus


Jak


gem


I thought the stickies were the holy-grail of health and fitness information. From what has been said in this thread regarding the disadvantages of wheat, it is not a recent discovery. So why the reversal of opinion here compared to the stickies? I'm not questioning the posts of those who have said wheat is bad, just curious as to why there is such inconsistency. By the way, I only looked at page 1 of the stickies and found that, perhaps there is more there.

Because they are not saying it is healthy to eat brown bread or wholemeal bread, they are saying it is less unhealthy.

Healthy<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<unhealthy
eat no bread<<<eat wholemeal bread<<<eat brown bread<<<eat white bread

feelgoodinc27

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

It's amazing how defensive people get when told bread is unhealthy. There is no other food that elicits such fervent attachment, that says something I think.

In the case of this thread its a pity that the opposite is also true. If your going to go against the convectional wisdom of the masses then the onus is on you to back up your arguments, which at the moment consists almost exclusively of a collection of anecdotal evidence, one paper and a link to a search engine.

Its also surprising and disappointing that the stickies are getting a rubbishing since alot of people coming to this forum are told to read them as a basis to a healthier diet.

El_Dangeroso

feelgoodinc27 wrote: »

In the case of this thread its a pity that the opposite is also true. If your going to go against the convectional wisdom of the masses then the onus is on you to back up your arguments, which at the moment consists almost exclusively of a collection of anecdotal evidence, one paper and a link to a search engine.

Its also surprising and disappointing that the stickies are getting a rubbishing since alot of people coming to this forum are told to read them as a basis to a healthier diet.

Well I can't speak for other posters, but bread is highly processed, chemical additive laden, engineered to be hyperpalatable and therefore likely to cause overeating in the majority of people.

'Real bread' is freshly ground wheat, sifted to remove the bran but retain the germ, fermented and then freshly baked with simple ingredients and eaten the same day. Unfortunately no one eats bread like this.

They are the facts of the situation as I see it.

I really don't care what people eat, I think we all have to find out what works for us.

My advice which anyone is free to take or not is give up wheat for 2 weeks, if they have no issue with that then make it fresh themselves (preferably fermented) and happy days.

siochain

feelgoodinc27 wrote: »

In the case of this thread its a pity that the opposite is also true. If your going to go against the convectional wisdom of the masses then the onus is on you to back up your arguments, which at the moment consists almost exclusively of a collection of anecdotal evidence, one paper and a link to a search engine.

Its also surprising and disappointing that the stickies are getting a rubbishing since alot of people coming to this forum are told to read them as a basis to a healthier diet.

Link to the search engine is a link to research portal that has hundreds of papers on wheat consumption. Old saying give a man a fish, teach a man to fish .......

runswithascript

I'm keeping an eye on the debate regarding bread here and I am going to read Wheatbelly, but on the matter of sandwich fillings, is there anywhere in Dublin City Centre that sells free range chicken breasts you would recommend?

I usually shop in Dunnes and Aldi but I am not sure if they sell them.

Irlandczyk

siochain wrote: »

Link to the search engine is a link to research portal that has hundreds of papers on wheat consumption. Old saying give a man a fish, teach a man to fish .......

Generally, when making an argument about something, you don't say "You want proof? Go find it." Regardless of whether the search engine link contained hundreds of papers or not, if you want to make a point, provide a quote from the article (preferably a few articles) and provide the link - directly to the paper the quote is derived from - below.

I too have read quite a lot of books and papers on optimal nutrition and few generally point to bread as being the killer in the western diet. It's strange to me to see a thread whereby the OP asked which bread and meat was healthiest and after 6-7 pages no-one has particularly waxed-lyrical about how atrociously bad for your health animal-based products are. Meat and Dairy are some of the main contributors of Heart Disease, Stroke, Diabetes, Cancer, Alzheimer's and Obesity. And yet bread is the major theme found in this thread. If there is a large body of peer-reviewed research available to show that bread can contribute to these major diseases as much as meat can, I'd love to read them, but it is quite off topic.

Personally, I think the OP was asking a question about the healthiest bread and meat. So I can't really understand why there has been 6 pages of posts which completely avoid the question almost entirely. I think by now the OP is quite clear that most people seem to think bread isn't a good idea, he has yet to receive many answers to his actual question though... Bread is unhealthy... but which is the healthiest?

Just - as they say - my 2c.

LaChatteGitane

Irlandczyk wrote: »

Personally, I think the OP was asking a question about the healthiest bread and meat. So I can't really understand why there has been 6 pages of posts which completely avoid the question almost entirely. I think by now the OP is quite clear that most people seem to think bread isn't a good idea, he has yet to receive many answers to his actual question though... Bread is unhealthy... but which is the healthiest?

Just - as they say - my 2c.

I think you'll find that my post (nr4 of this thread) covered that.
Unfortunately that has been picked apart by the bread-is-unhealthy-brigade.

Yes I know I was not going to venture into this thread anymore, but it's like bread, pulling me back in time and time again.

--Kaiser--

Irlandczyk wrote: »

Generally, when making an argument about something, you don't say "You want proof? Go find it." Regardless of whether the search engine link contained hundreds of papers or not, if you want to make a point, provide a quote from the article (preferably a few articles) and provide the link - directly to the paper the quote is derived from - below.

I too have read quite a lot of books and papers on optimal nutrition and few generally point to bread as being the killer in the western diet. It's strange to me to see a thread whereby the OP asked which bread and meat was healthiest and after 6-7 pages no-one has particularly waxed-lyrical about how atrociously bad for your health animal-based products are. Meat and Dairy are some of the main contributors of Heart Disease, Stroke, Diabetes, Cancer, Alzheimer's and Obesity. And yet bread is the major theme found in this thread. If there is a large body of peer-reviewed research available to show that bread can contribute to these major diseases as much as meat can, I'd love to read them, but it is quite off topic.

I already posted an extensively referenced, peer reviewed paper on the subject of grains if you want to go back and read it. Now where is your proof of the preposterous statement that meat is the main cause of 'Heart Disease, Stroke, Diabetes, Cancer, Alzheimer's and Obesity'? I'm sure you'll post the China Study or something else long since debunked

runswithascript

Anyone on my free range turkey question a few posts ago?

Irlandczyk

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I already posted an extensively referenced, peer reviewed paper on the subject of grains if you want to go back and read it. Now where is your proof of the preposterous statement that meat is the main cause of 'Heart Disease, Stroke, Diabetes, Cancer, Alzheimer's and Obesity'? I'm sure you'll post the China Study or something else long since debunked

You completely missed the point of my post then. I was more hoping to get the thread back on topic, but I guess I've just opened yet another can-of-worms. I'm not going to go into any further debate with you, sorry. There are far more studies showing proof of my "preposterous statement", and already far too much bickering about 'The China Study'. So no, I think I'll have to disappoint you by not posting anything from 'The China Study', and disappoint you yet even further by not posting anything at all and driving this thread off-topic even further.

Irlandczyk

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

I think you'll find that my post (nr4 of this thread) covered that.
Unfortunately that has been picked apart by the bread-is-unhealthy-brigade.

Yes I know I was not going to venture into this thread anymore, but it's like bread, pulling me back in time and time again.

Yes, I did find that. But as you said, it's been picked-apart and completely over-shadowed by this bread/wheat business. I somewhat acknowledged your post by saying he has not received many answers, though.

runswithascript

Less arguing with each other, more answering the OP!

El_Dangeroso

dusf wrote: »

Less arguing with each other, more answering the OP!

Sorry OP!

When it comes to free range, buy a whole bird, easier to find free range and way cheaper. It takes two mins to take the breasts off a chicken and then you can use the rest to roast for a dinner, then use the carcass to make a lovely stock as a base for soup.

runswithascript

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Sorry OP!

When it comes to free range, buy a whole bird, easier to find free range and way cheaper. It takes two mins to take the breasts off a chicken and then you can use the rest to roast for a dinner, then use the carcass to make a lovely stock as a base for soup.

:-)

Hmmm, I thought whole Turkeys were expensive? I was kind of thinking of getting 7 chicken breasts for the week! If turkey's the healthiest, why alternate?

I've started having smoked salmon a few lunches a week, would I be better with tinned, or even tuna? I have haemochromatosis so need to be careful either don't contain too much iron. I only haves red meat dinner every three or four days etc.

Also, forgive me, but how can a whole turkey be cheaper than a few breasts? I realise you are also getting a dinner from it...

Are they cumbersome to boil? I'm assuming you'd boil them.

Not sure I fancy picking up several whole turkey's a week, but that said if I'm alternating I won't have to.

Those of you opposed to bread, if you were to have a single turkey breast lunch, apart from lettuce, tomato, cucumber and maybe some lettuce, what would you have with it? The thought of the meal thus far leaves me thinking I would still be hungry afterwards without the bread...

Aquarius34

Where can you buy free range Turkeys?