The 2013 In Between Grand Slam Thread

Mousewar

Gerry91 wrote: »

Bit harsh on Nadal in here. Have we seen the full interview, I'm sure he was just responding to the fact he's yet to win here, which is hard to believe given his slam count. Guy doesn't have the greatest of English either at times, so some stuff he might say could come out fairly blunt

He's right though, the courts don't suit him here, and he's probably fed up of people saying he hasn't won here. He's far from the only one to call for a surface change, I've heard many people in the past suggest it should rotate between all 3. I wouldn't blast him for it, it's his opinion

Anyway to that poster above, obviously you can't be taken too serious when you say he has "average talent". Your agenda against him is clear to all and obviously clouds your thinking. Throughout W'don Djok says grass is his weakest surface, didn't get criticised for that.

Nadal is hardly an angel and has exaggerated more injuries than I care to think of but I think he's being criticised unfairly here. He's most likely just trying to defend his performances here, given reporters probably never shut up about the fact he can't win it

1 - This isn't a one-off response to reporters. He has been beating this drum for years. Unfair...blah blah...blah...poor me.

2 - I'll stand by my talent comment. It's a relative statement. Compared to most other players in the top ten he is miles behind them in terms of talent and technique and makes up for it through physical strength and workrate. Great attributes and all but winning points by endlessly moonballing from the baseline until your opponent makes a mistake requires incredible concentration and workrate but not so much talent or technique. It's certainly incomparable to someone like Borg who had to master two completely different styles of tennis in a one month window to win the FO and Wim.

3 - Djoko said grass is his weakest surface. Did he say he wanted the whole tournament changed and moved to suit him?

Mousewar

Gerry91 wrote: »

He then changes his game completely to deliver the USO 2010,

lol

Gerry91

Mousewar wrote: »

lol

You can lol all you like behind your computer screen, anyway there's no real point in me engaging with someone that clearly can't stand him and can't face reality

Mousewar

Gerry91 wrote: »

You can lol all you like behind your computer screen, anyway there's no real point in me engaging with someone that clearly can't stand him and can't face reality

You haven't tried to engage me. All you did was dismiss me as not being worth taking seriously because I expressed an opinion that differed from you, despite the fact that I did back up that opinion and then subsequently engaged with and answered all your points. And I'm lolling my head off at you suggesting he completely changed his game to win the 2010 USO, something you haven't backed up nor could you as it's a ludicrous statement. (He flattened his serve a bit, that was it.)

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Nadal moans about everything not suiting him. They should have slower courts, everything should be outdoors, they should only use the balls that suit him. If he was for parity on the tour maybe he'd suggest moving one of the many clay Masters events to grass, or even hard court. April to June sucks for most of the tour because clay is not a surface that suits everyone, and yet I think it's the only time of the year Nadal doesn't have something to complain about.

Gerry91

Mousewar wrote: »

You haven't tried to engage me. All you did was dismiss me as not being worth taking seriously because I expressed an opinion that differed from you, despite the fact that I did back up that opinion and then subsequently engaged with and answered all your points. And I'm lolling my head off at you suggesting he completely changed his game to win the 2010 USO, something you haven't backed up nor could you as it's a ludicrous statement. (He flattened his serve a bit, that was it.)

That's fair enough, but there's no need to come across as confrontational in all honesty. I see what you're saying about his talent compared to the others fine, your entitled to your opinion and you're unlikley to be alone on it. I prob took it up wrong originally


As for the bolded bit, there's no need to be so rude, it was a long time ago and I am sketchy enough on it, I remember him making adjustments, if it was only his serve then I apologise no problems at all

Mousewar

Gerry91 wrote: »

That's fair enough, but there's no need to come across as confrontational in all honesty. I see what you're saying about his talent compared to the others fine, your entitled to your opinion and you're unlikley to be alone on it. I prob took it up wrong originally


As for the bolded bit, there's no need to be so rude, it was a long time ago and I am sketchy enough on it, I remember him making adjustments, if it was only his serve then I apologise no problems at all

Confrontational
Rude

Just leave out the ad hominem stuff and challenge my points if you disagree with them.

Rjd2

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Nadal moans about everything not suiting him. They should have slower courts, everything should be outdoors, they should only use the balls that suit him. If he was for parity on the tour maybe he'd suggest moving one of the many clay Masters events to grass, or even hard court. April to June sucks for most of the tour because clay is not a surface that suits everyone, and yet I think it's the only time of the year Nadal doesn't have something to complain about.

Don't remember the French final in 2012? When Novak came back into the match the scene he made to get them to come off during the game due to the rain?

It was very unpleasant.:(

Gerry91

Mousewar wrote: »

Confrontational
Rude

Just leave out the ad hominem stuff and challenge my points if you disagree with them.

Christ above, sure I'm saying you're entitled to your opinion completely. I'm out

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Rjd2 wrote: »

Don't remember the French final in 2012? When Novak came back into the match the scene he made to get them to come off during the game due to the rain?

It was very unpleasant.:(

Well yes, but that was specific to that day and the weather and what not. I mean generally speaking he's always complaining about something to do with the courts or the balls or whatever. The only time he kicked up a big fuss about a clay tournament was when they made Madrid blue

WaterLily.

^I think that is quite harsh, he really isn't 'always' complaining. He speaks his mind if he doesn't like something or thinks its unfair and he is entitled to his opinion. Yeah sometimes he moans a bit but I don't think it's very much more than any other player.

I really see his point in relation to the tour finals, I don't think it should be on an indoor hard court every single year, it just doesn't make sense. Personally I think if it were to be held on the same surface every year it should definitely be on grass, there really are far too few tournaments on grass.

And I think also people say he is complaining when he mentions his knee, the vast vast majority of the time he hates talking about it but if it is the reason he lost the match he's hardly going to say ohh I don't know what happened if he clearly does.

Also finally when it really matters he rarely ever complains, like when he lost at Wimbledon this year and countless other times he respects his opponents and says that they played better on the day.

Edit: just wanted to add something, I feel like I'm constantly defending Nadal and honestly he isn't even my favourite player ever or anything, I like him but, I probably like Delpo more! I just think that for some reason he gets an awful lot of harsh and quite frankly undeserved criticism. He is obviously loved by millions and millions of people but the people that dislike him are just so vocal and sometimes nasty about him and so eager to discredit his achievements that I feel the need to say something!

yerwanthere123

Great win for James McGee in South Korea today, 6-2 7-5 over Blaz Kavcic

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Where are you going to get a good grass court outdoors in November though? Australia?

If you want outdooors and guaranteed weather to get all the matches played you're talking clay, more than likely. Which would suit Nadal down to the ground.

My problem with his moaning is that it always seems self serving. Lots of players complain about court speeds and bad organisation but you'll nearly always find at least a hand full of others complaining about the same thing. Nadal always seems to think anything wrong at an event is a personal affront to him. I know he's entitled to an opinion and it's somewhat refreshing to have someone actually speak their mind and not give the boring old PR friendly answers but he does start to grate after a while.

WaterLily.

Yeah I did think of that and realistically it's not going to be in Australia as it's just at the end of the European indoor season and they couldn't expect the players to travel half way across the world for it...

I don't particularly want outdoors, I just want more grass tournaments!

But I do think a bit of variety in terms of the surface at the wtfs would be good, imo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I don't think anyone will give the ATP as much money as London does so it's there for the foreseeable future I would think.

WaterLily.

And the atmosphere is incredible as well, I know it could be risky moving it as it might not be as successful as it has been in London.

Mousewar

Looking for surface variety at the WTF doesn't make sense though. Why there?
Why not vary the surfaces at the FO or at Wimbledon? Why is it that he only wants variety at the one tournament that is not currently set up for him to win it?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mousewar wrote: »

Looking for surface variety at the WTF doesn't make sense though. Why there?
Why not vary the surfaces at the FO or at Wimbledon? Why is it that he only wants variety at the one tournament that is not currently set up for him to win it?

I assume he was talking about the WTFs because he was being asked about his record indoors and how he's never won a WTF.

He talks about the other surfaces and tournaments when he's at them and asked about them.

Mousewar

So he does want them all changed? Even more than they've already been changed?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mousewar wrote: »

So he does want them all changed? Even more than they've already been changed?

I don't know. Wait and see when he's asked about Australia in January. He seems to be one of the few that are happy with the homogenization. So he probably wouldn't mind them being slowed more.

I think it was at the US Open that Serena said it's far easier to transition from clay to hard now because the hard courts all play like a fast clay court, i.e. slow.

Mousewar

Aye, everything is slow. And now he's after the one tournament of note that is fast(ish).

Anyway, the point that I was getting at is in relation to his quote:
"We qualify on all the surfaces, so it would be great to change the surface every year."

This, of course, is illogical nonsense. They qualify on all surfaces for every tournament. You can't play Wimbledon without performing satisfactorily at other tournaments (i.e. have enough ranking points to qualify). This is the exact same for the WTF other than the fact that it's a harder tournament to qualify for.

The logical conclusion of his comment is that every tournament should vary its surface every year.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mousewar wrote: »

The logical conclusion of his comment is that every tournament should vary its surface every year.

I would be happy with that. You might also get a bit of variety in who actually qualifies for the WTF too.

WaterLily.

Mousewar wrote: »

Looking for surface variety at the WTF doesn't make sense though. Why there?
Why not vary the surfaces at the FO or at Wimbledon? Why is it that he only wants variety at the one tournament that is not currently set up for him to win it?

Well because we already have at least one grand slam on each surface so there is no point in changing them. I don't think anyone could argue that Nadal wants all the slams to move to clay he clearly isn't saying that. But because there is only one WTF to me it could make sense to have it for say 3 years on hard court then clay or grass or alternate every year or whatever.

And the WTF fare different to the slams, you don't necessarily 'qualify' for Wimbledon, or the top 100 players don't, they get in automatically. The WTF is supposed to be the end to the season, the best 20 ish on the tour try to qualify, they try to gather as many points throughout the season on 3 surfaces. So why every single year, should the tour finals be held on the same surface?

Mousewar

WaterLily. wrote: »

Well because we already have at least one grand slam on each surface so there is no point in changing them.

We only have one FO. Why not vary that then. It's the same principle. He's just picked one tournament he doesn't like and argued that it should change.

WaterLily. wrote: »

And the WTF fare different to the slams, you don't necessarily 'qualify' for Wimbledon, or the top 100 players don't, they get in automatically. The WTF is supposed to be the end to the season, the best 20 ish on the tour try to qualify, they try to gather as many points throughout the season on 3 surfaces. So why every single year, should the tour finals be held on the same surface?

Other than those lower ranked who have to play qualifying, they get in based on their ranking (and some grass pedigree mumbo jumbo unique to wimbledon). And it's the same for the WTF - they get in based on their ranking (just less of them, that's all). It's the same thing. If you wanna get into Wimbledon you're gonna have to have posted some decent results on other surfaces throughout the year just like the WTF.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If you did move the WTFs to a different surface every 3 years, well is there any point in anyone else playing the 3 years it's on clay? To me that would be stacking the odds in Nadal's favour and unfair to everyone else, not to mention pointless to watch.

Obviously Nadal won't be around forever, maybe it's something to look at down the line. End of the day though it's money that counts. If nobody is willing to outbid London they're not going to move it.

Mousewar

There would be nothing logically wrong with playing the WTF on clay notwithstanding that it might be uncompetitive. It has to be on some surface.
However, the ATP and ITF have a bigger responsibility to provide a variety of playing surfaces throughout the year to be fair to all playing styles. And in that responsibility they are failing miserably and as a result certain styles of tennis are dying out.
Varying the surface of the WTFs and leaving the other tournaments as they are would merely exacerbate this problem.

At a certain point Nadal has to realise that he doesn't get to dictate terms to the rest of the sport just so he can be suited.

WaterLily.

Mousewar wrote: »

There would be nothing logically wrong with playing the WTF on clay notwithstanding that it might be uncompetitive. It has to be on some surface.
However, the ATP and ITF have a bigger responsibility to provide a variety of playing surfaces throughout the year to be fair to all playing styles. And in that responsibility they are failing miserably and as a result certain styles of tennis are dying out.
Varying the surface of the WTFs and leaving the other tournaments as they are would merely exacerbate this problem.

At a certain point Nadal has to realise that he doesn't get to dictate terms to the rest of the sport just so he can be suited.

I think you are completely right there with your first point.

However Nadal doesn't dictate terms to tennis. He states his opinion, many people may not agree with him, many people will, he isn't dictating anything. People are blowing this waay out of proportion, the media ask him time and time again why he hasn't won a WTF and he says (to paraphrase hugely) well he probably would have a bigger chance of winning one if it wasn't on an indoor hard court every year which is his worst surface.

And we don't vary Roland Garros, or Wimbledon (could you imagine the LTA being told to rip up its grass and chuck down some clay, there would be uproar :P ) because they are the slams, the biggest tournaments, the WTF is different as it is half way between a slam and a masters. Also you don't qualify for Wimbledon, etc. in the same way, there is no 'Race to Wimbledon/Australia/New York each year.

I don't care whether the WTF stays as it is or changes surface I'm just saying that I see Nadal's point to a certain extent and he isn't dictating to tennis in the slightest.

Mousewar

WaterLily. wrote: »

Also you don't qualify for Wimbledon, etc. in the same way, there is no 'Race to Wimbledon/Australia/New York each year.
.

There is. They just don't call it a race. It's the exact same principle. If you're ranked high enough you get in. Otherwise, you have to play qualies or you're out.

Of course, all of that is merely to point out that there isn't really any difference between the WTF and any other tournament in the year (other than its eliteness). Hence, Nadal should stop moaning about it.

Cold Chocolate

Nadal doesn't seem to have a problem with there being 3 masters 1000 on clay andnone on grass, wonder why that is. He also doesn't seem to have to a problem with most tournaments having a slow surface these days.

Indoor hardcourts are as valid a surface as any other.

Ever since the australian open changed from rebound ace to plexii cushion its nearly as slow as clay.

John.Icy

At least we now know Roger can stick with the big boys. He just can't do it mentally. So many missed chances.