Emigration: Bitterness at those who have left

books4sale

red_bairn wrote: »

I was in Korea for almost 2yrs and returned late Jan. .

I can tell ya, Ireland definately trumps that spot any day of the week for fresh air and open space.

Galwayguy35

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I can't vote in Spain either. I should be allowed to vote in one of the two places, don't you think? That's a whole separate debate though and I do partly agree with you actually.

That's what I said, people should be allowed to vote in the country they moved to and work in now.

Eve_Dublin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

That's what I said, people should be allowed to vote in the country they moved to and work in now.

And I agree with you.

red_bairn

books4sale wrote: »

I can tell ya, Ireland definately trumps that spot any day of the week for fresh air and open space.

Yeah. That's what I said but if you are lucky enough to have a huge mountain to climb there it ain't bad for the views. Still the architecture is dire. No inspiration for the apartment blocks built and less and less space when loads go up. I saw about 50 4storey blocks go up in my city within a year.

Grayson

Personally i don't feel bitter at those that have left. A bit jealous. Especially the ones who are either earning **** loads or are somewhere sunny. but i don't blame them at all.

And if they want to come back home and talk about how ****e this place is, they'll fit right in. There are plenty of people doing that already.

Dozen Wicked Words

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I can't vote in Spain either. I should be allowed to vote in one of the two places, don't you think? That's a whole separate debate though and I do partly agree with you actually in that I should be able to vote in Spain, not in Ireland (and I'm more concerned with Spanish politics anyway). My point is, I can't! And it sucks!

You can vote in some elections in Spain. Just pay the 10 euro or whatever it costs now to register as an "official resident of Spain", you can vote in the Municipal and European elections then. Non-Irish people cant vote in Irish referendum or Presidential elections so what Spain do isn't that different from a lot of European countries.

John_Rambo

books4sale wrote: »

Here are your choices when you finish school, Find an airport ....or stay with yer Mammy for life!

Speak for yourself. A lot of people work hard and earn a good living here in Ireland. Very few of my immigrant friends have the lifestyle I have in Ireland when it comes to socialising, raising kids, outdoor activities, etc... Obviously, for that reason, I'm not bitter.

books4sale

red_bairn wrote: »

Yeah. That's what I said but if you are lucky enough to have a huge mountain to climb there it ain't bad for the views. Still the architecture is dire. No inspiration for the apartment blocks built and less and less space when loads go up. I saw about 50 4storey blocks go up in my city within a year.

I climbed a few mountains in my time there, couldn't see a thing for all the smog and yellow dust, I feel grateful to still have a pair of lungs.

red_bairn

books4sale wrote: »

I climbed a few mountains in my time there, couldn't see a thing for all the smog and yellow dust, I feel grateful to still have a pair of lungs.

Ah the best time I reckon would be Jan when the snow starts clearing. Went up with two other English teachers.

books4sale

John_Rambo wrote: »

Speak for yourself. A lot of people work hard and earn a good living here in Ireland. Very few of my immigrant friends have the lifestyle I have in Ireland when it comes to socialising, raising kids, outdoor activities, etc... Obviously, for that reason, I'm not bitter.

I know, sure its all about being better than your poor immigrant buddies isn't it. Those poor unfortunates working the coalmines in the ar*e hole of Siberia I suppose.

What are you blowing on about man?

I'm sure your immigrant buddies are making a great life for themselves wherever they are and they're not thinking of how much better it is then yours which would be kind of pathetically sad.

Horses for courses and all that!

books4sale

red_bairn wrote: »

Ah the best time I reckon would be Jan when the snow starts clearing. Went up with two other English teachers.

Really? Its bloody freezing in January!

Winter here is so much milder though we get 100% more wind and rain

nenagh_lad

On a related topic, has anyone else noticed that its the scum that go to Oz/Nz and the sound people that go to the likes of Canada?

I know for a fact that tons have gone from my town to Oz, and its never been safer/less scummy here, Oz can have them :P

questionmark?

Jasus I'm sick of hearing about people that have emigrated to Oz. The vast majority that have truly emigrated have not gone to the other side of the world but rather to the other side of the Irish Sea.

John_Rambo

books4sale wrote: »

I'm sure your immigrant buddies are making a great life for themselves wherever they are and they're not thinking of how much better it is then yours which would be kind of pathetically sad.

They are doing their best, and I admire them for doing so, some of them are doing very very well, I also feel terrible for them, leaving family and friends behind them.

I was merely reacting your your the two choices you feel you have, mammy or the airport. You're wrong!

The only thing that is pathetically sad is you feel you only have these two choices.

keithclancy

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I can't vote in Spain either. I should be allowed to vote in one of the two places, don't you think? That's a whole separate debate though and I do partly agree with you actually in that I should be able to vote in Spain, not in Ireland (and I'm more concerned with Spanish politics anyway). My point is, I can't! And it sucks!

You can vote in the European and Local elections normally.

Here in the Netherlands once your registered in the City Hall you get your Stempas (Voting card) just like everyone else.

You can't vote in National Elections unless you're a Dutch Citizen.

I must admit though, I think all this being 'forced to leave' crap on the media is a load of rubbish.

People were going to work abroad from Ireland all the time.

Nobody is 'forced to move' to Canada/Australia/United States. There are jobs in the EU.

I expect someone will reply with 'Oh but they're not English speaking jobs' well go learn the language then.

Myself, I don't really see an issue with being away from my family.
You appreciate the time you spend with them more, only rough time is if someone becomes seriously ill (then last minute flights are an issue)

And your friends, you'll know which ones are the good ones, they are the ones that will keep in touch, or be the ones that you can meetup with and its like you saw them yesterday.

Annoys me a bit when people ask:
'Do you think you will ever move back home?'
To which I reply.
'What do you mean, I am home, to Ireland ? Oh maybe I don't know'

Don't get me wrong like, Irelands a great place, but I wouldn't say everywhere in Ireland is brilliant (for me), I wouldn't live in the back arse of nowhere in Kerry or Clare for example, similarly I wouldn't live in the back arse of nowhere in the Netherlands or Belgium either.

Brain Stroking

books4sale wrote: »

Her are your choices when you finish school, Find an airport ....or stay with yer Mammy for life!

I am professionally qualified and have a good job here in Ireland. I chose a career that wasnt dependant on the property boom continuing. I saw Ireland to be a country of finite size. I knew that engineering, quantity surveying, architecture etc etc would not be guaranteed longterm options in Ireland.

My mother lives on the other side of the country too. How i do love the fact that i get to see her regularly though.

Eve_Dublin

keithclancy wrote: »

You can vote in the European and Local elections normally.

General elections are the ones that matter though.

FTA69

keithclancy wrote: »

I must admit though, I think all this being 'forced to leave' crap on the media is a load of rubbish.

It isn't "crap" considering people are flooding out of the country due to lack of jobs.

Nobody is 'forced to move' to Canada/Australia/United States. There are jobs in the EU.

People tend to move where they already have a connection e.g. a family member or a friend or an existing network. Carpenters looking for work aren't going to move to France when they know they can find an Irish company in London and get an immediate start.

John_Rambo

FTA69 wrote: »

People tend to move where they already have a connection e.g. a family member or a friend or an existing network. Carpenters looking for work aren't going to move to France when they know they can find an Irish company in London and get an immediate start.

True, but you gotta admire the ones that head off to a non English speaking country and put the head down.

More adventurous than the fella on the bar stool in the local claiming he traveled the world, Australia and America (with a week in Fiji)

keithclancy

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

General elections are the ones that matter though.

And you can vote in those too if you become a Dutch Citizen through Naturalisation or by another method (Marriage etc) to do so you would have to renounce your Irish Citizenship.

FTA69 wrote: »

It isn't "crap" considering people are flooding out of the country due to lack of jobs.

To say their all leaving because of lack of jobs is a bit of a leap (and a bit insulting), since the media only want to talk to people that have a story to fit the negative side.

I would hardly call it sad in the age of 50 Euro flights from Continental Europe and the UK to Ireland a total famine era esque disaster.

FTA69 wrote: »

People tend to move where they already have a connection e.g. a family member or a friend or an existing network. Carpenters looking for work aren't going to move to France when they know they can find an Irish company in London and get an immediate start.

That is the easier option, but in my experience people go where the work is regardless of whether they have family/friends there or not.

FTA69

keithclancy wrote: »

To say their all leaving because of lack of jobs is a bit of a leap (and a bit insulting), since the media only want to talk to people that have a story to fit the negative side.

Leaving the country isn't inherently negative though either, at least not for a lot of those involved. If you're young and healthy and have the opportunity to travel and work and make a fist of things that's more positive than sitting at home on the dole. I know a lad who was on the scratch for a year at home, went off to Australia and is now a manager in a hotel, earning good money and has been sponsored for residency. Many are leaving for a year in the sun, most are leaving because their chosen field of work offers better prospects and/or better pay and down to the simple fact that for those who are blue-collar or those who are newly graduated, there's very little in Ireland for a lot of them. Despite all the bleating about an "IT boom."

I would hardly call it sad in the age of 50 Euro flights from Continental Europe and the UK to Ireland a total famine era esque disaster.

Nobody compared today to the famine. The fact remains however, that unemployment is high due to a lack of jobs across the board. Unemployment for the young is higher again significantly and that figure rises again when you leave out part-time workers and those on three day weeks.

That is the easier option, but in my experience people go where the work is regardless of whether they have family/friends there or not.

Well people aren't moving to the continent are they? They're going to the traditional destinations because the language is the same, their qualifications are relevant, they have a personal connection there and at the very least an existing Irish network.

RADIUS

Debator wrote: »

This video is doing the rounds on youtube at the moment. Watch out for the theater Northside accent on the UCD graduate. Related video is relevant

I'm from the Northside and I don't know anyone with an accent like that.

keithclancy

FTA69 wrote: »

Well people aren't moving to the continent are they? They're going to the traditional destinations because the language is the same, their qualifications are relevant, they have a personal connection there and at the very least an existing Irish network.

Judging by the amount of Irish people in Eindhoven and Dusseldorf theres definitely been an increase, theres 5 Irish bars in Dusseldorf full of Irish/English people on the weekends.

Theres a few Irish people in my Office in Germany, I smoke with a fella from Clonsilla out the back every so often.

ASML had a big recruitment drive via an Agency in Ireland.

Sure I hear Irish people in the Supermarket here the whole time and met a fella from Cavan in the Albert Heijn Car Park.

So I would say there are 'some' Irish people moving to the Continent.

But I would say that only a small minority I have talked to have mentioned they went to the Netherlands/Germany because times were hard job wise in Ireland, mostly the story is they lived in somplace like Kerry/Clare/Galway and didn't fancy moving to Dublin for work (which has been the case since before the recession anyway)

mandrake04

I moved to Australia 8 years ago not because I was forced but because I wanted to, I wanted a better lifestyle than Ireland could give mainly because I like 4WD/Boating/Jet Skiing and outdoor life. I had lived in England for 2 years and when I returned to Ireland I didn't really feel like staying so I went of to Australia via Asia for three months, I like Australia not because its English speaking but because it has the lifestyle I want, I also like big powerful V6 and V8 cars and not be taxed stupidly because of it. I also enjoy driving on the LHS of the road and not having to boil the tap water before drinking it or brush my teeth with bottled water. I enjoy the free healthcare which is probably second to none in the world. I enjoy jumping into the car in the mornings and without having to defrost the windows or able to BBQ or not having to wear a jacket 9 months of the year. I enjoy have so many international cuisine at hand, everything you can think of here is available but that I know I can get decent good quality sanitised food just like home.

I enjoy my job and often travel to Japan, China and Germany where the international language used is you....guessed it's English, no big deal moving to a country that Language is not the primarily English its still possible to get by if need be.

I work as an Engineer in High end medical equipment and a colleague recently moved from Ireland to Melbourne and he cannot believe that the stuff we are working on is so new and up-to-date, back in Ireland he was installing old hand-me-down equipment that was practically pulled out the British NHS skip.

It all depends on the person but from my point of view the grass is certainly greener, but then that's just me..... but my parents have been here three times and I know I am going to be slated for this but last time my mum said to me that you only think you are living in Ireland but really its only an existence (her words....not mine).

There are valid reasons for moving to an English speaking country than just speaking English, maybe because it was the place that had the better lifestyle (for me).

Andy!!

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Feck them, let them off, more jobs and women for the rest of us.

This might come as a surprise to you, but there are actually more jobs and women in the rest of the world than Ireland.

Much better jobs and far more beautiful women too.

I also saw that video; its pathetic. Such a chip on the shoulder some people have. And people are praising this begrudging piece of crap? If I made a video slagging of people who choose to stay, and go on about how great my life is, there would be uproar, and rightly so.

maninasia

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I haven't encountered too much bitterness about the fact that I emigrated as most of my friends live abroad as well and most of my family have emigrated at one stage or another. One thing I'm very conscious of though is the fact that I can't criticise Ireland in any way shape or form in the eyes of some (not all). I was never one to criticise Ireland anyway as I love the place and originally only left for university in 2004 but some people even get touchy when I comment on the expensive and essentially **** transport system. Madrid has a far superior transport system to Dublin/Ireland and it's seen as a boast by some if I even say that. I didn't build the Madrid Metro ffs but objectively, it is a better transport system and you do wonder why can't our government use theirs as a template for our own.

That's just an example. I've also encountered some hostility when I comment on the weather ffs.

Many people feel that because I don't live here anymore, I don't have a right to comment, particularly when it comes to politics. The fact that I can't even vote says it all. I have no voice here anymore. I can't go home to Ireland and a large part of that is down to our feckless politicians and how they ran the country in the last 15 years.....surely emigrants are among those most affected and in turn, that gives us the right to criticise?

And I'm also Irish and the fact that I live in Spain doesn't change that.

I'm not talking about making sweeping comparisons that you find here in AH ("Spain is sooooo much better than Ireland!!" Eh....it really isn't) about what a **** hole Ireland is compared to most other countries in the world but to even make simple observations not based on opinion but on fact.

Ironically, I can't vote in Spain either and the Spanish get just as tetchy when a foreigner like myself, even one that's lived there over 3 years, criticises.

It's not a nice feeling to feel so impotent. Sob.

I'm a continent away but it's the same thing with me. People get VERY defensive about the smallest things. It's natural to point out better ways of doing something that you have seen with your own eyes, but people just don't want to know.

The worst thing about being an emigrant far away? Feeling forgotten about. We still exist, we just moved country. We are still Irish.

Quazzie

I was talking to a few people over the Xmas holidays about how they were getting on great out in OZ. They kept trying to put across the weather as such a big factor in why its so great. See the thing is. I can't go to Spain for more than a week on holidays because it's just too warm. Not everyone enjoys the heat. As I sat there listening to them rabbitting on about how the rain ruins this country, I looked out the window and never appreciated it more. Stick yer sun up yer hole, and give me rain any day.

Duggys Housemate

The outdoor life is plenty possible in Ireland, in fact more so than most of Europe. It's 11 c and dry today, 2nd Jan. I don't get the need to go to Australia to surf, boat, or cycle. If rain stops you, you may not be that interested in the first place.

Leftist

oz is for common people. The xfactor of emigration destinations. Full of the kinds of people who used to be sat in big pub smoking areas downing pints of bulmers in the middle of the day, moaning about polish people and blacks. I'd rather live in west africa.

old hippy

One of my ancestors was a returning emigrant, he went to the farm to catch up with the family. He wasn't behaving flash, he hadn't been home in years and he was treated with suspicion and called the "rich yank". He ended up going back to the States, much saddened.

I left 14 years ago or so and whilst I have no wish to settle back home, I do occasionally miss it. Family and friends. But I have family and friends outside of Ireland, too.

I guess what I'm saying is, the vitriol towards some emigrants puts me off ever coming back for good. I also meet a lot of bitter expats, so I suppose the sadness and bad feeling goes both ways...