Emigration: Bitterness at those who have left

clairefontaine

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't mean they get angry like that though because they generally like us Irish but people have got very defensive when I have done. I've got into borderline heated arguments when I dared to say their food wasn't THAT great, for example. I spend 25 hours a week with adult Spaniards teaching English and I've learned to keep shtum on certain issues (politics, food and manners, mainly). Sometimes I've piped up on some topics only for them to immediately go on the defense which I don't believe they'd do if I wasn't foreign (I don't think they're exceptional though and that any country is different on that front....nobody wants to hear criticism from foreigners). Just like Ireland, it hasn't been my general experience (I tend not to criticise to their faces anyway) but I come across it enough to write it on here.

The fact that I can't legally vote in either country pisses me off though. I'd be fairly into politics and I hate not having my say.

As an outsider you will always be able to see things they cannot see, but also as an outsider, they will consider you as such and a guest too, so they will get defensive and try to invalidate your views.

Now that you are am emigrant from Ireland, you will be seen as an outsider in Ireland too, so you are neither here nor there - it's a kind of homelessness. It's one of the sucky things about emigration that you just have to negotiate through.

FTA69

I will agree there are few things more annoying than someone coming back from abroad and lecturing everyone about how great Australia/Vancouver/London etc is. Unfortunately many people back visiting couple this up with an attitude of superiority toward those who stayed. "I got off my arse and went away to X and the same lads are staying at home doing nothing...". Nothing is more sure to wind people up, and rightly so.

However it's also annoying to be told that you're only on a working holiday and that eventually you'll come back and aren't things great? They aren't great, there's no work for anyone in a blue collar industry, there's very little prospects for graduates either. People aren't flooding out of the country for the craic alone, but because they're sick of handing out thousands of CVs and getting no reply. Or because they can get a handy job abroad that pays good money as opposed to the struggle to get any sort of graft at home. A Tesco's opened up in Wexford a couple of years back and got thousands of CVs, many of them from university graduates. That's why people get on a plane to Canada or Australia or New York.

I moved here a year and a half ago, and have new secured a dream job on the back of an internship I signed up to. My girlfriend is a nurse and there's precious little future for her in Ireland compared to what she could have here. Some people might be off for a year on the booze, but I would contend that most people over the age of 25 who hop on a plane certainly aren't.

FTA69

dd972 wrote: »

A lot of the Irish who went to the UK in the 50/60's and their offspring are looked down upon by older Irish people who stayed ( a lot of whom view them as failed Irish people or some sort of sub breed of non traveller itinerants ) and by the current crop of whizz kid post grads that currently move to the UK who want nothing to do with them ( viewing them as a church and gaa orientated anachronism and not representative of funky,modern day,secular Ireland )

The "too cool for school paddies", biggest pains in the arse you'll ever find in London.

who the fug

FTA69 wrote: »

The "too cool for school paddies", biggest pains in the arse you'll ever find in London.

Now Now, we all had to learn

token101

giant_midget wrote: »

Emigration is not spending all your time and money in the tea gardens with all the other embarassing Irish people with farmers tans.

Emigration is not living in a hovel in bondi drinking cheap wine with a clothes line full of gaa jerseys and skyping your mother asking her to send you over some "barrys tea"

It is if you're on a 457 visa, defacto visa or have residency. People's drinking habits have nothing to do with emigrating, if you've ever been on a city street in Ireland any weekend night you'll know that. Also, I didn't choose to have a farmers' tan or sunburn. Would going to a sunbed or some bronzing lotion make me a better emigrant? I don't really see how wearing a jersey of any sort defines you as a person, it just symbolises an interest in something other than self loathing.

Eve_Dublin

clairefontaine wrote: »

As an outsider you will always be able to see things they cannot see, but also as an outsider, they will consider you as such and a guest too, so they will get defensive and try to invalidate your views.

Now that you are am emigrant from Ireland, you will be seen as an outsider in Ireland too, so you are neither here nor there - it's a kind of homelessness. It's one of the sucky things about emigration that you just have to negotiate through.

Exactly. You worded it better than I did or could. Tis sucky indeed. Not the end of the world - more irritating than anything else.

gramar

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't mean they get angry like that though because they generally like us Irish but people have got very defensive when I have done. I've got into borderline heated arguments when I dared to say their food wasn't THAT great, for example. I spend 25 hours a week with adult Spaniards teaching English and I've learned to keep shtum on certain issues (politics, food and manners, mainly). Sometimes I've piped up on some topics only for them to immediately go on the defense which I don't believe they'd do if I wasn't foreign (I don't think they're exceptional though and that any country is different on that front....nobody wants to hear criticism from foreigners). Just like Ireland, it hasn't been my general experience (I tend not to criticise to their faces anyway) but I come across it enough to write it on here.

The fact that I can't legally vote in either country pisses me off though. I'd be fairly into politics and I hate not having my say.

I wouldn't bring up politics in an English class or anywhere to be honest. Opinions are very polarised. They love their food too and take it seriously but it's all about what you're used to. I look at young kids eating olives like they were jelly babies. I'd love to see the face on a young Irish kid with an olive in his mouth! As for manners you should try coming to Burgos. It very annoying that people don't have the common courtesy that they do at home but you get over it although it took me a while.
Having lived here for 8 years and with it looking likely that I'll be here for a long time I just get on with things like I'm just another person. I don't have any inhibtions being an immigrant and don't behave differently. I just get on with it. It's the best thing you can do as any immigrant in any country.
In fact in many instances it gives you more freedom to do/say things that a local person wouldn't as they may feel restricted by their own culture.

BraziliaNZ

FTA69 wrote: »

The "too cool for school paddies", biggest pains in the arse you'll ever find in London.

I know loads of them through my old flatmate that actually sound more home counties than Irish these days. I sound like a f*cking knacker talking to these people!

Eve_Dublin

gramar wrote: »

I wouldn't bring up politics in an English class or anywhere to be honest. Opinions are very polarised. They love their food too and take it seriously but it's all about what you're used to. I look at young kids eating olives like they were jelly babies. I'd love to see the face on a young Irish kid with an olive in his mouth! As for manners you should try coming to Burgos. It very annoying that people don't have the common courtesy that they do at home but you get over it although it took me a while.
Having lived here for 8 years and with it looking likely that I'll be here for a long time I just get on with things like I'm just another person. I don't have any inhibtions being an immigrant and don't behave differently. I just get on with it. It's the best thing you can do as any immigrant in any country.
In fact in many instances it gives you more freedom to do/say things that a local person wouldn't as they may feel restricted by their own culture.

You're right about politics....I used to get a kick out of stirring **** though in my first year here. I still bring up politics but I'd always be conscious of remaining totally impartial and not giving away my own political leanings. Tis a tricky one for someone like myself.

I don't feel persecuted or anything as an immigrant and I don't want to give that impression. I've found I could slip fairly easy into their culture there. I'm like yourself, I just get on with it and don't consider myself much different to the Spaniards day to day. My boyfriend is Spanish and I live with him and I've only one Irish friend (that's just how things worked out). I haven't gone there with the intention of living my life like I do in Dublin in another city. I just wanted to live in a European city, learn the lingo and live my life. And like you said, it's liberating knowing that although I live there and pay my taxes, I'm not totally part of it. Being a foreigner gives you the best of both worlds, I suppose. You can pick and choose what aspects of the culture to adopt (particularly as a European foreigner)...no one expects you to blend in like they might do amongst themselves. Overall it's been a positive experience.

mayotom

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Feck them, let them off, more jobs and women for the rest of us.

But the women are leaving too. in fact I know a lot more women who have left than fellas

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Thats the thing.
Candian visas are 2 years and Australian visas are only 1 year. Its still a great life experience and a chance to earn a few bob more than what you would have over here. But you still got to come back.

That's personal choice, I have thought of coming back several times, but I always feel more at home abroad. I think there is a 3 year itch, I have seen hundreds come and go, but the people who stick it out for 3 years either stay or move on to another country but rarely return home

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Ireland's not THAT bad, so they need to stop dumping on it every chance they get.

Very true, it's a fantastic country, I look forward to my return every-time, but I have built a life elsewhere and feel at home there now. I don't see the point in dumping on Ireland, it gets nobody anywhere

Rented Mule wrote: »

Nothing like a thread about begrudging people for begrudging/not begrudging begrudgers.

That's the Irish way !!

The world is full of them

DrumSteve wrote: »

Im currently living and working in Canada, really enjoying and liking it here. However I do see myself coming home at some stage.

I make a point (if people ask me) to really big up Ireland. Regardless of anything else, its really a great place with a lot of great people.

This is very common, the Irish abroad are great at promoting Ireland and bigging it up, but when in Ireland they moan and belittle it. We can probably blame the likes of miserable radio shows like "Liveline" for that. Why the constant negative attitude

gramar

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

You're right about politics....I used to get a kick out of stirring **** though in my first year here. I still bring up politics but I'd always be conscious of remaining totally impartial and not giving away my own political leanings. Tis a tricky one for someone like myself.

I don't feel persecuted or anything as an immigrant and I don't want to give that impression. I've found I could slip fairly easy into their culture there. I'm like yourself, I just get on with it and don't consider myself much different to the Spaniards day to day. My boyfriend is Spanish and I live with him and I've only one Irish friend (that's just how things worked out). I haven't gone there with the intention of living my life like I do in Dublin in another city. I just wanted to live in a European city, learn the lingo and live my life. And like you said, it's liberating knowing that although I live there and pay my taxes, I'm not totally part of it. Being a foreigner gives you the best of both worlds, I suppose. You can pick and choose what aspects of the culture to adopt (particularly as a European foreigner)...no one expects you to blend in like they might do amongst themselves. Overall it's been a positive experience.

Europeans are certainly looked upon more fondly here as we're not the asylum type immigrant and it makes 'acceptance' easier. You have the right idea, you can't try and live your Irish life here or anywhere else. I only know one Irish person here and we get on well but don't see each other that often as we have our own lives and Spanish circle of friends so
we don't need to lean on each other for mutual support. I've met other Irish and British people who seem to think that because we're Irish or from the UK we should automatically be friendly. In fact a colleague mentioned that he was talking to a guy from Wales last week who siad he'd love to meet me for the simple reason that he's looking for someone from his own culture to have a chat and a pint with.

Anyway that's work finished for 2012. I'm off to Madrid in the morning to fly home with Aer Lingus to see friends and family many of whom I haven't laid eyes on for a year so looking forward to it. You can take the man out of Ireland but you can't take Ireland out of the man. I hope there'll be some turkey and sprouts left over!

mayotom

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't feel persecuted or anything as an immigrant and I don't want to give that impression. I've found I could slip fairly easy into their culture there. I'm like yourself, I just get on with it and don't consider myself much different to the Spaniards day to day. My boyfriend is Spanish and I live with him and I've only one Irish friend (that's just how things worked out).

If you link up with the MMDDMM crowd on Tuesdays you'll have a great time, very mixed bunch of nationalities with many languages, last time I was in Madrid I was shocked to hear Irish been spoken by so many.

Look it up MMDDMM Madrid on facebook

FTA69

who the fug wrote: »

Now Now, we all had to learn

I don't mean the "look at me I'm Irish" crowd, sure we all do that at some stage in our youth when abroad. Especially if we think it may result in pulling a bird. I mean the skinny-jeans brigade who look down on anyone working on a building site or watching a game of Gaelic football or wearing a Cork jersey. Because that's "like, just such a cliché and it's so great to be here in London away from that small town mentality." Bloody hipsters.

donegal_road

it was much easier to save up to emigrate when the dole was €220 per week, irrespective of whether you were under 22. Now its taking twice as long to get the money together for young people.

Duggys Housemate

As someone who lived abroad for ten of the last 12 years I didn't see much of this.

First the guy splashing the cash is a bit old school. Wages remain high in Ireland. I don't think emigrants are better off than the employed at least.

Secondly I didn't notice much agro when I came home - people just treat you fairly normally. Nor did I criticise Ireland.
In general Ireland is neither better or worse than the countries I lived in , the US and the UK. It has some better points. And some worse points.

With better guaranteed weather - I like continental - it would be widely acknowledged as one of the best places on earth.

The political system needs reform, but its a good place to live and work.

Duggys Housemate

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't mean the "look at me I'm Irish" crowd, sure we all do that at some stage in our youth when abroad. Especially if we think it may result in pulling a bird. I mean the skinny-jeans brigade who look down on anyone working on a building site or watching a game of Gaelic football or wearing a Cork jersey. Because that's "like, just such a cliché and it's so great to be here in London away from that small town mentality." Bloody hipsters.

Well all my friends in England were English. It was a city with few Irish people. I didn't look down on Irish groups - in fact I wished I could have seen a few Munster finals - but neither did I seek them out. That's the nature of modern Irish emigration to England, although not to Oz.

Be well and win

Speaking as a returned emigrant (spent the 90's in London), have to admit that when I came home it took me a good 18 months to settle back here. There were lots of things that annoyed me here, banks not opening til 10am, Irish driving, lack of a decent public transport system etc etc. As someone who not travels over to London 15-20 times a year for work, I'd never move back there as there are lots of things over there that I got used to when I lived there now annoy me. Crowds on trains, Essex girls, slightly patronising attitude many English have towards us, the list goes on.

I guess the point I am making is that the grass is always greener on the other side. I don't think there is much bitterness towards those who have left now, sadness in many cases but not bitterness. Now that I have kids, I find it hard to imagine uping sticks with them. I do have a worry though that a lot of those who've gone to Oz are going to find themselves in a few years time a long way from home in a rubbish job with no career prospects and with the novelty of "the craic" having died off. I saw plenty of people in my time in London earning big money and pouring it down their throat, when the time came (and it hits us all) to settle down, they struggled to do it.

red_bairn

I was in Korea for almost 2yrs and returned late Jan. I'm kinda kickin' myself for not getting another short term contract to save up for the Masters I'm currently partaking in.

I'm not gonna lie, I've complained a fair bit about Ireland but with the things that would piss me off they would match the items that made me happy to be Irish...(especially the fresh air/wind). I really missed the breeze of Wicklow when sweltering me bollox off in the sun and humidity and smelling some unpleasant smells in the side streets of a country city in Korea.

...and vice versa, Korea would have some benefits and disadvantages....

I think after reeducating myself in this MSc in Computer Science I'd get some experience here and then look for work abroad.

keithclancy

mayotom wrote: »

This is very common, the Irish abroad are great at promoting Ireland and bigging it up, but when in Ireland they moan and belittle it. We can probably blame the likes of miserable radio shows like "Liveline" for that. Why the constant negative attitude

Livelines a great show, I listen to that shít every day on my drive to Dusseldorf while laughing and tweaking me nipples.

Hippies!

da fuq was that video about reeking of the ghey so it was :rolleyes:

Gandhi

I must be doing something wrong because I have never seen any bitterness from anyone. Lived in the States for almost 17 years now and I come home on average twice a year.

dd972

FTA69 wrote: »

The "too cool for school paddies", biggest pains in the arse you'll ever find in London.

Agree 100%, they have what could be described as a Clapham/Clontarf or a Chiswick/Castleknock mindset

though I also find the London-centrism of those went to London in the 50/60's equally annoying, it's like Mayo and some nomark sh!thole like Wembley or Greenford are their worlds, get out to Exeter or York and meet the English, they're great !

philologos

dd972 wrote: »

Agree 100%, they have what could be described as a Clapham/Clontarf or a Chiswick/Castleknock mindset

though I also find the London-centrism of those went to London in the 50/60's equally annoying, it's like Mayo and some nomark sh!thole like Wembley or Greenford are their worlds, get out to Exeter or York and meet the English, they're great !

Can't vouch for York as I'm yet to get up there, but Exeter is lovely as are a number of cities in Britain (I think Bath, Cambridge and Canterbury would probably be on the top of my list) but if you live and work in London then surely it is obvious that London will be your world.

UCDVet

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Feck them, let them off, more jobs and women for the rest of us.

That's not how jobs work...

WhatNowForUs?

So now we have a problem with people leaving the country along with people coming into the country. The question now becomes are they the same people who complain about both.

parc

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I haven't encountered too much bitterness about the fact that I emigrated as most of my friends live abroad as well and most of my family have emigrated at one stage or another. One thing I'm very conscious of though is the fact that I can't criticise Ireland in any way shape or form in the eyes of some (not all). I was never one to criticise Ireland anyway as I love the place and originally only left for university in 2004 but some people even get touchy when I comment on the expensive and essentially **** transport system. Madrid has a far superior transport system to Dublin/Ireland and it's seen as a boast by some if I even say that. I didn't build the Madrid Metro ffs but objectively, it is a better transport system and you do wonder why can't our government use theirs as a template for our own.

That's just an example. I've also encountered some hostility when I comment on the weather ffs.

Many people feel that because I don't live here anymore, I don't have a right to comment, particularly when it comes to politics. The fact that I can't even vote says it all. I have no voice here anymore. I can't go home to Ireland and a large part of that is down to our feckless politicians and how they ran the country in the last 15 years.....surely emigrants are among those most affected and in turn, that gives us the right to criticise?

And I'm also Irish and the fact that I live in Spain doesn't change that.

I'm not talking about making sweeping comparisons that you find here in AH ("Spain is sooooo much better than Ireland!!" Eh....it really isn't) about what a **** hole Ireland is compared to most other countries in the world but to even make simple observations not based on opinion but on fact.

Ironically, I can't vote in Spain either and the Spanish get just as tetchy when a foreigner like myself, even one that's lived there over 3 years, criticises.

It's not a nice feeling to feel so impotent. Sob.

Haha. I live in the UK and complain a hell of a lot about its unbelievably sh1t and overpriced transport system. Compared to Spain it's rubbish (though in some places in Spain you do have to wait ages for trains)

I complain daily about it to English people and they agree with me. Still, it's better than in Ireland/Dublin and when I say this to some people in Ireland they go "ooooh well, England is obviously so much better" in a patronising and condescending way


Thinking about Australia, I'm not sure if I'd want to emigrate there (though maybe that will change when I visit). I'm mad for other countries and don't think I want to live in Ireland (just visit it from time to time) but Australia seems very very far away and isolated (the actual country seems really cool though). I like the fact that you've got northern/western, southern, eastern European countires, North Africa and even North America isn't too far away. Not that I'd live in many of those place but it's great variety for holidays (Thinking about it Australia has Asia but that's quite a bit away)

Eve_Dublin

parc wrote: »

I complain daily about it to English people and they agree with me. Still, it's better than in Ireland/Dublin and when I say this to some people in Ireland they go "ooooh well, England is obviously so much better" in a patronising and condescending way

In fairness, can you really blame them for this? This kind of attitude pees me off too and I don't even live here anymore. England, objectively speaking, is NOT better than Ireland (I lived there for 3 years). That's just your opinion of which you're entitled to but people like it here and in all fairness, it does sound snotty and arrogant when someone says something like this.

Galwayguy35

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't mean they get angry like that though because they generally like us Irish but people have got very defensive when I have done. I've got into borderline heated arguments when I dared to say their food wasn't THAT great, for example. I spend 25 hours a week with adult Spaniards teaching English and I've learned to keep shtum on certain issues (politics, food and manners, mainly). Sometimes I've piped up on some topics only for them to immediately go on the defense which I don't believe they'd do if I wasn't foreign (I don't think they're exceptional though and that any country is different on that front....nobody wants to hear criticism from foreigners). Just like Ireland, it hasn't been my general experience (I tend not to criticise to their faces anyway) but I come across it enough to write it on here.

The fact that I can't legally vote in either country pisses me off though. I'd be fairly into politics and I hate not having my say.

I don't really see why someone who has left should still have the vote here, if it's a EU country they have moved to how about letting them vote there instead where they now work and pay taxes.

Same for here where others have come to work.

books4sale

I've been all over the world, lived and worked everywhere over the years.

Can't say I enjoyed every minute of it, work is work wherever you choose to do it.

All I do know is, life is a whole lot easier when you get up to a shining sun every morning then the misery of pissing rain and damp especially as one gets older.

Ireland has its pluses for sure, but those who think the sun shines out of its back arse are well and truly deluded.

Her are your choices when you finish school, Find an airport ....or stay with yer Mammy for life! ...because lets be honest those who couldn't survive abroad were straight home to Mammy.

I've met them, normally a boy racer farmery rosy red cheeks type, early to mid 20's, always wear a GAA shirt & tracksuit bottoms, sh*ting on about all sorts, thinks they're the hottest sh*t in town

.... bunch of big girls blouses! :pac:

Eve_Dublin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't really see why someone who has left should still have the vote here, if it's a EU country they have moved to how about letting them vote there instead where they now work and pay taxes.

Same for here where others have come to work.

I can't vote in Spain either. I should be allowed to vote in one of the two places, don't you think? That's a whole separate debate though and I do partly agree with you actually in that I should be able to vote in Spain, not in Ireland (and I'm more concerned with Spanish politics anyway). My point is, I can't! And it sucks!