Criminalise Bullying

blacklilly

eblistic wrote: »

Though the individual cases mentioned are tragic, we should be very wary of any campaigns which could, in effect, criminalise the causing of offence. Too many people will have very different opinions on what the threshold should be.

A certain thread of political ideology is fundamentally opposed to people having an anonymous voice to say anything at all. It takes away some of their ability to control free speech and they don't like that.

I would be to an extent against an anonymous voice, free speech is a right that I am gald we have but should some little sh*t anonymously abuse someone? No, the right to free speech is not the issue here. If someone holds stroing opinions on an issue, why should they feel the need to hide behind an anonymous mask? Our society is becoming more and more devoid of personal responsibility.

eblistic

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

The problem lies in reporting any workplace/school bullying, its a very hard thing to prove so to that end, yes, legislation should be introduced to criminalise it.

How does it follow that legislation will help prove it took place?

Don't we already have legislation that covers actual threats etc? What exactly are you asking that they legislate against?

blacklilly wrote: »

No, the right to free speech is not the issue here.

How could free speech not be at issue? That is exactly what it's being proposing we regulate - with bad, ill-defined, reactionary legislation, most likely.

JRant

eblistic wrote: »

Though the individual cases mentioned are tragic, we should be very wary of any campaigns which could, in effect, criminalise the causing of offence. Too many people will have very different opinions on what the threshold should be.

A certain thread of political ideology is fundamentally opposed to people having an anonymous voice to say anything at all. It takes away some of their ability to control free speech and they don't like that.

If you do something once to a person it is causing an offence, if you continue to do the same thing over a period of time your bullying.

I'm all for people having the right to voice their opinions in an anonymous fashion. People have been using "handles" for millenia at this stage.

blacklilly

eblistic wrote: »

How does it follow that legislation will help prove it took place?

Don't we already have legislation that covers actual threats etc? What exactly are you asking that they legislate against?



How could free speech not be at issue? That is exactly what it's being proposing we regulate - with bad, ill-defined, reactionary legislation, most likely.

As already pointed out all legislation is open to interpertation. You are not going to see a sudden avalanche of people being charged with bullying. It will have to be proven that the person harrassed, intimadated ect another person over a period of time.

Free speech can and has been used innapropiately on many occassions. I'm all for free speech but when that free speech intimidates someone it no longer forms the boundary of what free speech was intended for.

JRant

blacklilly wrote: »

Totally agree, these children who bully know excatly what they are doing, it usually forms itself in group mentality. Please tell me how a child can not know he/she is doing wrong when another kid is crying hysterically, doesn't come to school due to the fear of being bullied, doesn't get involved in class/sport because they are afraid of the intimidatuion they will receive. As I mentioned previously, I was very badly bullied for years (boys in the class use to push me to the ground and kick me repeatedly in the stomach, girls would spit in my face, pull lumps of my hair, scratch me, shout at me, call me names, whicsper about me, write notes about me, exclude me from any activity, exclude me from birthday parties) the school were usless, even though my parents had many meetings with them,my parents even approached the bullies parents but to no avail. I was avery bright and active kid but I totally regressed in all aspects of life. I left primary school after the second week of term (6th class)because I couldn't take it any longer, I was a complete wreck, a 12 year old should not know what suicide is never mind be contemplating it.
I spent the rest of my 6th class year working in a local equestrain school and it literally saved my life, I was happy for the first time in 6 years.

I'm not saying that these bullies are "bad" people but they need to know that they cannot treat others like this, yes they may need help, or perhaps just a good talking to from their parents but unfortuantly at present the victim of bullying is left to pick up the pieces and to be honest my main concern would be to the person who is being bullied.

I 100% understand where your coming from and I hope life is treating you far better now. It's a sad thing to have ones childhood ruined in such a way and not many people can fully comprehend just how hard it is to deal with.

I would also argue, from experience, that most people who are being bullied just want it to stop. They don't want people locked up or beaten up. They just want to be able to go to school or where-ever and have a normal life.

leggo

JRant wrote: »

I just can't agree with your bully-centric ideals. Adults and children need to know there will be serious reprecussions for their actions. Although it is slightly different in children then adults the premiss should be the same. If you bully then the only solution I see is the immediate removal of your person from the victims presence. Whether that means you lose your job or have to move schools then so be it.
It takes years to get over the abuse these people dish out and I don't see how a victim can move on if the culprit/s are let off and allowed to continue as normal.
Yes the bully needs help but they should get it a long way away from the victim with as much support being given to the victim as possible.

Look, I'm very aware that my entire role in the bullying conversation is to share my experience. I'm not a law- or policy-maker.

But, to me, this is a very simple choice between a realistic solution that does work and causes the bullying to stop...and an unrealistic one that allows it to continue (schools are never going to expel students for one instance of reported bullying, therefore it festers over a longer period of time and the behaviour becomes more difficult to cease. You're just fighting a losing battle when you go down that road).

And what's causing that is your own need to get revenge for these wrongs being committed. Again, that's understandable. It's not, primarily, concern for the childrens' welfare though because, if it was, all you'd want is for the bullying to stop. So would be happy to take any effective solution.

Obviously, help may not work every single time. When the bully is given every opportunity and still persists, then of course it's time for serious punishment.

But a model of punishment, punishment, punishment is one that we've gone down before and are currently at risk of going down again. It's ineffective as the bullying has only worsened. Punishing, if anything, only serves to act as long-term provocation as you continue to make someone who feels wronged to begin with even more of a martyr (in their own head). It simply doesn't make sense knowing what we do now about the nature of bullying.

Wanderer2010

goose_gladwell wrote: »

its a cliche to think all cowards are bullies , some are , some are not, all are nasty however

I have never come across a bully yet that wasnt also a coward, its not a cliche, you will find that bullies would torment one person for something that they wouldnt dare do to someone else, for example a boss would bully a worker for making a mistake but if another boss made the same mistake they wouldnt open their mouth, thats being a coward and thats just one of dozens of examples.

hyperborean

JRant wrote: »

I'm not going to define a bully for you, go do that yourself.

The practicalities of legislating bully would require someone defining bullying and ignoring that shows you are more interested in venting than engaging.

The experience of the bullied is important but it will not be the only contributing factor in dealing with it, there needs to be a macro and micro analysis of every case and that is in my opinion the difficulty in legislating bullying.

Rant away, tell the world your story, it will help but it wont solve the problem if you dont engage in a meaningfull way.

Grayson

For adults being bullied, don't we have harassement laws?

MaxSteele

With the amount of Self proclaimed "offended" gimps going around, nearly breaking down in tears at a Frankie Boyle joke or the dead baby jokes page, no. Society is still too sensitive to distinguish crude humor from bullying annd free speech.

I do however think harassment charges should be applied to a continued verbal and mental assault carried out by bullies.

gozunda

Grayson wrote: »

For adults being bullied, don't we have harassement laws?

No harassment is only for specific characteristics such as race, age, religious persuasion etch

Individuals who are bullied outside seven specific criteria have to run the gauntlet of having to take a personal injury case and the full onslaught of the employer or other party in defence

This is why there urgently needs to be legislation to make psychological abuse a criminal offence in order to protect employees from ruthless wmployment practises

gozunda

leggo wrote: »

Look, I'm very aware that my entire role in the bullying conversation is to share my experience. I'm not a law- or policy-maker.

But, to me, this is a very simple choice between a realistic solution that does work and causes the bullying to stop...and an unrealistic one that allows it to continue (schools are never going to expel students for one instance of reported bullying, therefore it festers over a longer period of time and the behaviour becomes more difficult to cease. You're just fighting a losing battle when you go down that road).

And what's causing that is your own need to get revenge for these wrongs being committed. Again, that's understandable. It's not, primarily, concern for the childrens' welfare though because, if it was, all you'd want is for the bullying to stop. So would be happy to take any effective solution.

Obviously, help may not work every single time. When the bully is given every opportunity and still persists, then of course it's time for serious punishment.

But a model of punishment, punishment, punishment is one that we've gone down before and are currently at risk of going down again. It's ineffective as the bullying has only worsened. Punishing, if anything, only serves to act as long-term provocation as you continue to make someone who feels wronged to begin with even more of a martyr (in their own head). It simply doesn't make sense knowing what we do now about the nature of bullying.

For the individual who let say is is physically assaulted would the claim that any legal action taken is 'a desire for revenge' ? Of course not - the victim of such an assault would be seeking justice for a wrong that has been committed against them. Legislation against bullying would serve as a redress for those who have been victimised and also act as a deterent to those who would use such behaviour to harm others. I d not believe that those who are bullied ever see themselves as 'martyrs' - their self esteem is so destoyed that in at least a percentage of cases - victims feel they have no other option but to seek a way out by taking their own lives. What is urgently needed is a system of justice that will help prevent such abhorrent behaviour being allowable. It is disgusting that currently there is nothing that can be done against those who deliberately to choose to harm others through bullying.

gozunda

hyperborean wrote: »

The practicalities of legislating bully would require someone defining bullying and ignoring that shows you are more interested in venting than engaging.

The experience of the bullied is important but it will not be the only contributing factor in dealing with it, there needs to be a macro and micro analysis of every case and that is in my opinion the difficulty in legislating bullying.

Rant away, tell the world your story, it will help but it wont solve the problem if you dont engage in a meaningfull way.

Hyperborean - bullying is already well defined. Look it up. This is not an obstacle to the enactment of legislation which will outlaw such behaviour.

Physical assault is dealt with under the current legal system - there is no reason why physical assault cannot be dealt with in a similar way.

Scruffles

Grayson wrote: »

For adults being bullied, don't we have harassement laws?

and it can also come under hate crimes to if it was related to a particular minority or vulnerable group had come from.

am not going to get deep into this topic because am deeply affected by it,but have been severely bullied entire life due to being severely disabled-at its worst on a daily basis when out with family was attacked by a gang of teens with broken bricks,threatened with knives and other stuff because of being disabled and daring to use the community-they did all the usual mocking 'impressions' to.
am unable to go anywhere in home town because of them,it sets off very severe PTSD like problems.

as an adult,have experienced severe cyber bullying over a number of years, was deliberately targeted due to intelectual and developmental disability, it became a hate campaign,using all sorts of methods such as gaslighting and projecting,the fact was not able to get this communicated to staff meant it went on for so long that it triggered severe clinical depression and pyschosis; both diagnosed.
am still strongly affected by the effects of his bullying.
with detective work had discovered he was diagnosed with anti social pd,borderline pd and narc pd,he had also spent some time in prison for violence.

am personaly all for criminalising bullying providing the law is clearly written out,people who are overreacting about abusing a politician once havent got anything to worry about with a bullying law because bullying is continuous/long term but in this country the severity of the message may end up getting them in court for misuse of electronic equipment act or whatever its called-dont know irelands equivilent.
but besides that,people who believe it woud take away their right to say whatever they want to people need to be looking into why they woud feel the need to send abusive or threatening unprovoked messages to others in the first place-the politician in this suicide case for example.

leggo

gozunda wrote: »

For the individual who let say is is physically assaulted would the claim that any legal action taken is 'a desire for revenge' ? Of course not - the victim of such an assault would be seeking justice for a wrong that has been committed against them. Legislation against bullying would serve as a redress for those who have been victimised and also act as a deterent to those who would use such behaviour to harm others. I d not believe that those who are bullied ever see themselves as 'martyrs' - their self esteem is so destoyed that in at least a percentage of cases - victims feel they have no other option but to seek a way out by taking their own lives. What is urgently needed is a system of justice that will help prevent such abhorrent behaviour being allowable. It is disgusting that currently there is nothing that can be done against those who deliberately to choose to harm others through bullying.

Woah, you've severely twisted my argument there. Very unfair. We're all on the same page here, all want the same goals, we're just discussing the best means of achieving them. No need to twist words maliciously, as you've done.

I never, EVER said that bullied people see themselves as martyrs. I said that punishing bullies haphazardly would serve to only make them feel martyred...as they turn to this behaviour as a reaction to already feeling 'wronged' in some capacity. So punishment as a first step simply won't work. It's not working.

People are also refusing to acknowledge the simple fact that is being explained to them that nobody, not one person I believe, deliberately sets out to directly bully someone. They may deliberately slag, intimidate, assault, exclude etc, but they will not see this as bullying. Like I said, their internal sense of being wronged justifies this behaviour in their head. People need to understand this much if they want to have a credible discussion about bullying. If you can't get your head around this, you're not helping with this discussion.

We also need to understand that you can't just categorise someone as a 'bully': in that I'm a bully and you're not. We should use the term as a verb, not a noun, in that we can all engage in bullying behaviour at times and need to monitor ourselves as such. Not accepting this gives rise to the deniability that I discuss above: people who are bullying someone may think, "No I'm not a bully. I give money to charity, I'm nice to my family, I'm a good person, how could I possibly be a bully???" This is also why it's difficult, nearly impossible IMO, to legislate directly against.

gozunda

It is now Christmas eve...

I originally posted this thread in relation to the very real difficulties faced by those who are bullied and suffer psychological abuse but todate have little or no recourse to protection under the law

And to clarity by bullying / psychological abuse I mean an assault against the person where actual harm has occurred due to the persistent and deliberate behavior of another

Currently there is little if any legal sanction of those who carry out persistent bullying behaviour either to offer redress or act as a deterrent to those who choose to use such behaviour against another person

In the last number of years there has been an apparent increasing number of individuals who have taken their own lives following sustained bullying and I would like to take this moment to remember some of those whose deaths have followed sustained psychological abuse / bullying and also one close personal friend who took their own life for this very reason.

Phoebe Prince - January 2010

Kate Fitzgerald - Aug 2011

Erin Gallagher - October 2012
& her sister December 2012

Shane McEntee - Dec 2012

A good Friend - June 2012

& perhaps countless others...

I really do believe it is time to stand up and legislate against the current status quo that enables bullies to destroy the lives of others without penalty or deterrent.

I for one of not wish to see any more individuals take their own lives because bullying is not judged to be the serious issue that it clearly is.

There is a very valuable sticky at the start of AH that has links to a range of organisations that aim to help those in similar situations (http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056241245?page=1#post_82267489)
and whilst these bodies are doing their very best it remains that those that are bullied have little or no protection against their attackers - it is now time this is changed.

I for one will be lobbying for such change in 2013.

Happy Christmas

leggo

Your will to do something is admirable, but you also have to ensure that you put your energy into something that works.

I've spent the past 18 months working on and researching this (with people who have done so for decades), and am continuing to do so with workshops in schools where I go and actually meet people who have been/continue to be bullied and those who have done so in the past.

My feeling towards the idea of legislation is that it is impractical, solely based around people's anger at the tragic happenings of the past few years with little actual research (show me stats of countries were legislature has made a dramatic impact on bullying instances, for example), and simply won't work. Because of the nuances around the subject matter, even if your goal were to be successful, it would be but a token measure in the long run and wouldn't change a thing. Simply because there are already laws in place for anything that can be proven (assault, harassment etc), and anything additional couldn't be proven in a court of law (one person's word versus another's, a lot left open to interpretation etc).

Like I said, I commend you on your will to change. I agree wholeheartedly that things to need to change. But a will to change without understanding the actual subject won't benefit anyone or go anywhere once your lack of understanding becomes evident. So I'd suggest you take that energy and put it behind something that it shown to actually work.

gozunda

leggo wrote: »

Your will to do something is admirable, but you also have to ensure that you put your energy into something that works.

I've spent the past 18 months working on and researching this (with people who have done so for decades), and am continuing to do so with workshops in schools where I go and actually meet people who have been/continue to be bullied and those who have done so in the past.

My feeling towards the idea of legislation is that it is impractical, solely based around people's anger at the tragic happenings of the past few years with little actual research (show me stats of countries were legislature has made a dramatic impact on bullying instances, for example), and simply won't work. Because of the nuances around the subject matter, even if your goal were to be successful, it would be but a token measure in the long run and wouldn't change a thing. Simply because there are already laws in place for anything that can be proven (assault, harassment etc), and anything additional couldn't be proven in a court of law (one person's word versus another's, a lot left open to interpretation etc).

Like I said, I commend you on your will to change. I agree wholeheartedly that things to need to change. But a will to change without understanding the actual subject won't benefit anyone or go anywhere once your lack of understanding becomes evident. So I'd suggest you take that energy and put it behind something that it shown to actually work.

Thanks for the reply however I will have to fundamentally disagree with your basic opinion on this matter. I will leave the presumption regarding lack of understanding etc aside.

I have spent many months researching and looking into the issue of bullying and from this have came to a number of conclusions on this matter including the fact that bullying must be assigned as an offence against the person in order that 1) it will enable the law to stop an aggressor and 2) will act as an deterrent to those who believe that such behaviour is anyway acceptable

Bullying is a form of assault. It is also an offence against the person that can cause damage to a persons health, destroys lives, and in a percentage off cases may even result in an individual taking their own life

What I can demonstrate here is that the present approach to bullying in this country is not working. What we have at the moment is a softly softly approach to the issue of bullying in education, in employment and else where - an approach that is clearly not working with the result that there is an epidemic of bullying with individuals having no protection from such behaviour.

At present the current law only deals with specific issues in harassment such as race and gender and fails to deal in anyway with the fundamental matter of bullying. Those that suffer such abuse face a legal minefield to seek any redress against the perpetrators of such behaviours through civil actions that are utterly useless as a means of prevention. I have discussed this matter with a number of legal experts in this area and in layman terms - currently in this area there are no proper laws addressing the issues of bullying / psychological assault.

In the framing of new law to deal with bullying - proof will work In the same way that actual physical assault cases are proved or not proved - through witnesses, medical evidence and other actual evidence so that bullying and psychological assault can be proved or otherwise

This is already done in the issue of personal injury and there is no reason why this cannot be utilised to prove psychological assault as an offence against the person.

We now have the opportunity in this country to draw up workable laws against bullying using the most qualified and experienced people in the country and internationally We have the opportunity to make this work. If we do not I believe we will see the continued assault of individuals by those who use bullying behaviour to destroy others lives.

Currently those that bully do so with impunity, knowing that there is no real sanction that will be applied to them. This must stop now.

Where physical assault is an offence I fail to see any logic to say that psychological assault is not. Your 'feelings' on this issue appear to miss the essential nature of bullying in that no amount of appealing to the better nature of the aggressors will stop or prevent bullying from happening

What we now need is a proper system where those who have experienced bullying will be able to report such behaviour and they will have full recourse to the law in bringing such behaviour to an end.

The sooner this happens the better. I for one do not wish to see any more lives destroyed because of the present culture of uncontrollable bullying.

Sertus

Workplace bullying is just as big an issue in Ireland, and, even worse than school bullying, it is largely ignored and largely unrecognised. Bullying doesn't stop for people when they leave school, the bullys just get more subtle and clever at it.

Fighting Irish

lol hell no

steddyeddy

Just curious but if someone assaults a bully is the law on the side of the person who was bullied. The old fashioned beating up a bully seems to be the best solution but often when the bully is beat up hes the one who goes crying about it.

hyperborean

gozunda wrote: »

It is now Christmas eve...

I originally posted this thread in relation to the very real difficulties faced by those who are bullied and suffer psychological abuse but todate have little or no recourse to protection under the law

And to clarity by bullying / psychological abuse I mean an assault against the person where actual harm has occurred due to the persistent and deliberate behavior of another

Currently there is little if any legal sanction of those who carry out persistent bullying behaviour either to offer redress or act as a deterrent to those who choose to use such behaviour against another person

In the last number of years there has been an apparent increasing number of individuals who have taken their own lives following sustained bullying and I would like to take this moment to remember some of those whose deaths have followed sustained psychological abuse / bullying and also one close personal friend who took their own life for this very reason.

Phoebe Prince - January 2010

Kate Fitzgerald - Aug 2011

Erin Gallagher - October 2012
& her sister December 2012

Shane McEntee - Dec 2012

A good Friend - June 2012

& perhaps countless others...

I really do believe it is time to stand up and legislate against the current status quo that enables bullies to destroy the lives of others without penalty or deterrent.

I for one of not wish to see any more individuals take their own lives because bullying is not judged to be the serious issue that it clearly is.

There is a very valuable sticky at the start of AH that has links to a range of organisations that aim to help those in similar situations (http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056241245?page=1#post_82267489)
and whilst these bodies are doing their very best it remains that those that are bullied have little or no protection against their attackers - it is now time this is changed.

I for one will be lobbying for such change in 2013.

Happy Christmas

Not to demean the harm bullying causes but bullying is one of many causes of suicide.
Certainly a small number listed above I have heard of but the vast majority of suicides within my social circle (and there have been many on in the last 20 years of my adulthood) have had drugs or relationship failures as the primary motive, not a single person I know who committed suicide could be attributed to bullying.

The media have contributed to this issue being highlighted but I would look beyond bullying as the primary fault for the suicide epidemic in this country, and shame on anyone who would use it for their own agenda.

Bullying in itself while serious may not be the main driver to cause suicide in my opinion but the feeling and sense on the victims part that there is no way out and that there is nothing that can be done about it. That is more than likely where the suicidal tendencies come from

gozunda

hyperborean wrote: »

Not to demean the harm bullying causes but bullying is one of many causes of suicide.
Certainly a small number listed above I have heard of but the vast majority of suicides within my social circle (and there have been many on in the last 20 years of my adulthood) have had drugs or relationship failures as the primary motive, not a single person I know who committed suicide could be attributed to bullying.

The media have contributed to this issue being highlighted but I would look beyond bullying as the primary fault for the suicide epidemic in this country, and shame on anyone who would use it for their own agenda.

Hb - fair enough if that is your experience -my experience has been very different. Btw I have no personal agenda (if it is even possible to have one on suicide )

The link between suicide and bullying has been well researched and has been shown to be linked. It is not the only cause of suicide - but those who are bullied and abused often run an increased risk of suicide. This issue has rightly highlighted - perhaps not always appropriately but shooting the messengers is not going to help anyone.

leggo

Here's another reason legislating against it would be foolish and impossible, and that anyone with a deep understanding of bullying wouldn't strongly suggest it:

• How do you prove the difference between slagging and messing in a court of law?
• How do you prove that someone is being excluded deliberately, and doesn't just have poor social skills in ingratiating themselves with others?
• How do you fairly measure other people's tolerance levels for what they can take? i.e. I can laugh off endless amounts of abuse of character, but you may crumble at the mildest of jokes. If I was to say that joke, and the reason you crumbled was due to other people and experiences in life, is that my fault or that of the others' before me?
• How do you ensure the (massively vague) law wouldn't be abused? i.e. If two people dislike each other and have a disagreement, what if one decides to say they're being bullied?

Another thing is, I remember being suspended in school and the reasoning behind it was due to the fact that 'I carried myself in an intimidating manner'. I had previous with the complainant, had been punished for it, but hadn't had a personal interaction with him since. Because of my reputation for being a bully and our previous, he was intimidated by my mere existence despite not actually talking or picking on him.

When people put the 'bully' label on you, all of a sudden the perspective of your every action is changed. You may say something with the least amount of offence intended, but people may take it as an attack where they wouldn't have otherwise.

The middle ground is so vague and impossible to prove either way that this 'emotional assault' people speak of can't even be defined.

I hope people can see the absence of sense in what is being suggested. Not because I fear that it'll come to pass (it won't), but because there IS a workable solution on the table and the more time we waste on these non-goers distract from the heavy-lifting that needs to be done now, and not a minute later.

gozunda

leggo wrote: »

Here's another reason legislating against it would be foolish and impossible, and that anyone with a deep understanding of bullying wouldn't strongly suggest it:

• How do you prove the difference between slagging and messing in a court of law?
• How do you prove that someone is being excluded deliberately, and doesn't just have poor social skills in ingratiating themselves with others?
• How do you fairly measure other people's tolerance levels for what they can take? i.e. I can laugh off endless amounts of abuse of character, but you may crumble at the mildest of jokes. If I was to say that joke, and the reason you crumbled was due to other people and experiences in life, is that my fault or that of the others' before me?
• How do you ensure the (massively vague) law wouldn't be abused? i.e. If two people dislike each other and have a disagreement, what if one decides to say they're being bullied?

Another thing is, I remember being suspended in school and the reasoning behind it was due to the fact that 'I carried myself in an intimidating manner'. I had previous with the complainant, had been punished for it, but hadn't had a personal interaction with him since. Because of my reputation for being a bully and our previous, he was intimidated by my mere existence despite not actually talking or picking on him.

When people put the 'bully' label on you, all of a sudden the perspective of your every action is changed. You may say something with the least amount of offence intended, but people may take it as an attack where they wouldn't have otherwise.

The middle ground is so vague and impossible to prove either way that this 'emotional assault' people speak of can't even be defined.

I hope people can see the absence of sense in what is being suggested. Not because I fear that it'll come to pass (it won't), but because there IS a workable solution on the table and the more time we waste on these non-goers distract from the heavy-lifting that needs to be done now, and not a minute later.

Leggo - I am afraid your listed points show an extreme lack of understanding of what bullying actually is:

Bullying is not an once off incident
Bullying is not simply a nuisance or annoyance of an individual
Bullying is a well known behaviour that has already been defined.

For your information - Here is the current definition of bullying From the HSA

The Task Force (March 2001) defines workplace bullying as:

"Repeated inappropriate behaviour, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could be reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual’s right to dignity at work."

An isolated incident of the behaviour described in this definition may be an affront to dignity at work but as a once off incident is not considered to be bullying.

For work / employment - school etc can be included

The definition clearly states that bullying is defined by repeated and inappropriate behaviour. It also clearly states that an isolated incident does not constitute bullying.

In addition where such bullying can be shown to have caused harm whether physical, emotional or psychological harm to an individual and can be attested medically then there is quite clearly a case to answer as an offence against the person

Leggo - you would appear to have an extreme bully centric approach to your reasonings in that it is the bully's needs that should be addressed - I stongly disagree. I see little or no concern for the victims of bullying or the harm that is caused by such behaviour in your opinions.

I note that you state you had been suspended from school for bullying behaviour. Unfortunately you appear to have maintained an denial that this behaviour was in any way real for the victim or was carried over afterwards. Have you considered that your previous behaviour was still having a huge detrimental effect on the person you previously bullied?

I also note that you indicate that it may be the victims fault that they are been bullied as they may have 'poor social skills' - I am sorry but that excuse goes to the same depth of ignorance as the rapists excuse of 'she was looking for it - your honour' I find this logic deeply deeply disturbing tbh.

Bullying is nothing about 'two people disliking each other' - bullying is an abuse of power over and above another individual. Bullying is used to harm others.

How do we make sure the 'law is not abused' ? Where such behaviour is designated a criminal offence - the onus of proof will still remain with the prosecution. Proof that will have to be upheld in a court of law.

As said you state you have been a bully in the past - and had issues with your treatment, something that had obviously caused you later trouble. You would appear to somehow blame the victim for their response Nor do you appear to understand why individuals lives may continue to be destroyed by previous bullying / psychlogical abuse. I would suggest you study some of the many accounts of bullying that have been researched todate.

The tagging of an individual as a bully where such behaviour has been correctly determined can be compared to other violant situations such as say a knife attack - will the victim ever feel safe in the vicinity of the attacker - the most common answer will be - no. It may be unfortunate but an attacker will carry that offence with them. They are the perpetrators of that behaviour and only they have only their selves to blame.

Yes education has some part to play in informing individuals what is wrong and what is right regarding behaviour towards others but to consider only the interests of the bully and not the victim is a horrible and cynical abuse of this issue

You previously talked about bullies feeling that they have been outed and somehow wronged. Do excuse my being forthright - but the issue here is their abuse of others and how this should be dealt with to stop this abuse

The victims of bullies have their lives and health destroyed by deliberate, inappropriate and repeated abuse. These individuals have committed an offence against the victim just as much as a person wielding a baseball bat again and again.

If you cannot see this - then your role as an ex bully and advocate cannot be validated

There is no 'massively vague law' btw - law on bullying has yet to be enacted but has been already discussed by the Minister of Justice. Physical assault is a criminal offence - logically there is no reasoning why psychological assault should not be also.

We have the opportunity to enact fair and just laws that will give victims of bullying recourse to prevent such abuse continuing and to act as a deterent to those who think that such behaviour is acceptable.

As I have already said the sooner this happens the better - even if we can save a proportion of the lives lost because victims of bullying can see no other way out- then it will have achieved some redress - where it acts to prevent future abuse then that is to the good

By all means try and educate against bullying behaviour but do not attempt to dismiss the fact that victims of such abuse have the right to seek redress against their absusers.

leggo

I assure you that I know what bullying is. Like I said, schools bring me in to help teach their students what it is and how we can stop it. I didn't just Wikipedia a definition and go on boards for a rant where I postured as if I was going to enact an unworkable campaign.

Please don't deliberately take my words out of context again. To do so is just to be stubborn and detract from when you don't like your argument being questioned; so you put a different, malicious context on my words. The next time you do it, it'll be reported. I never said that bullying victims had poor social skills. Never. And shame on you for implying that I did, what a horrible thing to do.

My question that you could not answer was how do you prove when someone is deliberately being excluded from a group? You can't, and for a bullying victim to take it through the courts could worsen their experience by having horrible things questioned about them (such as whether it was all in their head etc). It would likely be a traumatic experience for someone who has already been through that ordeal.

You're not thinking of these multiple scenarios because, unfortunately, it's you who doesn't see them coming because of your lack of understanding of what you're saying. And now you're just being stubborn and unable to admit that it's a bad idea.

The reason I'm bully-centric on the issue is the same reason the media is Adam Lanza-centric on the Newtown traged.

You see you spend paragraph after paragraph going on about how bullying makes people feel. The thing is, while it's relevant, we all know how it makes people feel. I know how it does...I was bullied. But that's like trying to drum up discussion about how do we stop mass murders in the US and talking about how murder makes people feel instead of gun control laws: we know murder devastates families. It goes without saying. It doesn't actually help anyone to talk about how the families and friends feel after a murder. It's like writing at length about how someone gets wet when they walk in rain: we get it.

Whereas if you actually look into the head of the people that are behind these various tragedies, you may actually figure out a way to stop it happening again. See also: bullies.

Do you have children? Because these laws wouldn't make them 1% safer from bullies. They wouldn't make them 0.01% safer.

Why? Because if you understood the nature of bullying, you'd understand that nobody behind it considers their actions as bullying when they're carrying them out. It's only afterwards when they're framed in a certain context that a bully may see it as the rest of the world does (and even then, they may still be in denial).

So what CAN we do? We can get to the bullies and stop it happening to begin with, instead of going your way and LETTING it happen, then just putting more people in over-crowded prisons (which, again, just won't happen).

So for all of your posturing about how you want to help bully victims, continue along this path and you still won't have done so. You'll have just wasted your time. Bullying victims will go through the same pain, the laws will be ineffective because the nuances of them (which would need to be proven undeniably) cannot be proved in court, and everything will continue as beforehand.

Now, if you do choose to reply, please ensure that you reply to the points ACTUALLY made and don't put some horrible, malicious words in my mouth again. That's a disgusting thing to do, given the gravity of the subject and the fact that I, like you, just want to help. Thank you.

Sertus

One of the reasons Bullies bully, is because they can always get away with it.

Beating seven shades out of them is not even a solution anymore, as you'll then be charged with assault and then taken to the civil court by bully to claim compensation money.

Bullies have free reign in Ireland, especially in schools and workplaces. Most bystanders in Ireland are cowardly and turn a blind eye to them, and pretend its not bullying in order to make sure they are not targeted as well.

UCDVet

Am I the only one who is skeptical of all these bullying claims?

gozunda

UCDVet wrote: »

Am I the only one who is skeptical of all these bullying claims?

You deny that bullying actually happens then?

Tbh - bullying is often under reported imo. Like other firms if abuse it is only now being dealt with.

Time we actually faced up to the damage it is going to people's lives and dealt with it properly.