Criminalise Bullying

catallus

Years ago I remember that bullies were treated with the "kid gloves approach" because it was presumed that they were the ones who had "esteem issues". This attitude has been discarded, the reason being that it was nonsense, and in hindsight it was idiotic nonsense.

Now the idea being pushed is that the people who are being bullied are so delicate that they need the power of the state to protect them. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a cluster of very tragic episodes.

We need to educate people, especially the young that they shouldn't allow themselves to be victimised. I know it's harder than it sounds, but to say that they need the government to step in and fight their battles for them is nanny-statish.

catallus

gozunda wrote: »

Obviously It would be up to the courts to decide not the individual

That is the HSA's definition of Bullying - they also state that
"An isolated incident of the behavior described in this definition may be an affront to dignity at work but as a once off incident is not considered to be bullying."

Obviously the criminalising of such behavior would involve defining this in detail

This has been done elsewhere

We should really take care what we permit the courts to decide.

gozunda

Kevin Irving wrote: »

If a TD was ignored in the Dail on a daily basis, that could be regarded as bullying, and rightly so. If I walk past the same charity guy on the street every day and ignore him, does that make me a bully?

Well if you dont know the guy - then obviously no

Just as there is an obvious difference in touching someone on the arm with no other detrimental behavior and walloping a person with a baseball bat

Persistent behavior that actually causes harm is a very different scenario to not talking to someone you dont know

mirekb

Pottler wrote: »

Much the same here, try being a half german half Irish lad in London with a dublin accent. I got awful grief and even the teachers had a good old go. Long term, it made me waay stronger and resilient, though it was tough at the time. If we wrap everyone up in cotton wool, we get a lot of people who can just not fend for themselves at all. The world is rough and tumble and it is better to face that and adapt rather than to try and change the whole world, somthing that no law will ever achieve.

I agree that we need to empower people to stand up for themselves - but people can literally be broken and at that point there needs to be some support for them. I am in favour of taking responsibility as a society and standing up for people we see being bullied - and laughing at the bullies.

Oh, and legislation/law of any kind is open to misinterpretation and abuse

gozunda

catallus wrote: »

We should really take care what we permit the courts to decide.

If a family member was physically assaulted for example they were attacked and harmed by a person wielding a knife - then we would utilise the courts to decide if and how a person was assaulted

Legislators legislate - The court can only utilise the law to decide when a law has or has not be broken....

hyperborean

Laws wont change human nature, even education. Bullying especially in children will always be there, the best thing people can do is help themselves and show their own how to deal with situations they are not comfortable with. . .

The government is not a big brother to go crying to every time someone calls you a name!

mirekb

hyperborean wrote: »

The government is not a big brother to go crying to every time someone calls you a name!

This is not reflective of what bullying is

hyperborean

mirekb wrote: »

This is not reflective of what bullying is

Go ahead?

gozunda

Pottler wrote: »

Ok, so now we can't hit each other anymore, soon we won't be able to be impolite to each other. I just hope our brethren overseas are keeping up with us in the "being really civilised" stakes, otherwise we're fecked if they choose to pop over for a spot of invading.

Our only defence will be an online petition because we will have become such a bunch of woosies. The Chinese must bust their holes laughing at the stuff we worry about.

How about we just educate our kids that the world is quite tough, people can be nasty and it is a good thing to be able to stand up to bullies ourselves rather than rely on others to do so for us through legislation?

So if you were attacked with a knife and suffered harm and attempted to seek redress - would that be defined as being a woosie?

Physical assault is defined as an offense against the person
Similarly psychological assault that causes harm also needs to be properly legislated for

Education can only go so far and bullying is far from being confined to the behavior of children. There are many adult bullies who use psychological assault to destroy others lives

Pottler

gozunda wrote: »

So if you were attacked with a knife and suffered harm and attempted to seek redress - would that be defined as being a woosie?

Physical assault is defined as an offense against the person
Similarly psychological assault that causes harm also needs to be properly legislated for

Education can only go so far and bullying is far from being confined to the behavior of children. There are many adult bullies who use psychological assault to destroy others lives

I am really not being smart now, but I've never met one, Twice. I learned the hard way how to stand up for myself and now I don't tolerate any abuse in any way shape or form. Literally. I demand politeness from everyone I deal with and give the same in return. That is the best lesson to teach our kids -don't accept bullying or abuse. Simply refuse to. Call them out on it immediatly and demand a respectful interaction.

Teaching this is far more realistic than drafting some batty legislation. We have laws about not stabbing each other, but people still get stabbed.

mirekb

hyperborean wrote: »

Go ahead?

At the age of 13 someone in my school decided to call me a name. It was very funny to call me that. Even more funny when their friends called me it too. Then even more funny when the kids in the older classes started too. Sounds like nothing right? But noone ever talked to me, they just hissed that name at me. Or sometimes shouted it. And pointed. And laughed. And kicked my chair, and took my lunch. The boys would touch my bum and chest, and hold me down and laugh. The girls would egg them on. I was in boarding school so it was day and night.

Now, I don't care anymore, I'm a grown up, there's no self pity here. BUT to tell my thirteen year old self to stand up for myself is laughable - and to tell my thirteen myself to stop crying and cop-on it's just 'someone calling me a name' is insulting.

Smidge

catallus wrote: »

Years ago I remember that bullies were treated with the "kid gloves approach" because it was presumed that they were the ones who had "esteem issues". This attitude has been discarded, the reason being that it was nonsense, and in hindsight it was idiotic nonsense.

Now the idea being pushed is that the people who are being bullied are so delicate that they need the power of the state to protect them. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a cluster of very tragic episodes.

We need to educate people, especially the young that they shouldn't allow themselves to be victimised. I know it's harder than it sounds, but to say that they need the government to step in and fight their battles for them is nanny-statish.

This unfortunately has not been my experience.
It is still the bullies who are treated with kid gloves, in primary anyway

hyperborean

gozunda wrote: »

Similarly psychological assault that causes harm also needs to be properly legislated for

How do you legislate psychological assault when you cant even categorize it?
How far do we go?

One thing may be psychological damaging to me but banal to another,

Do we provide everyone with a tolerance level for this law?Maybe a stamp or something to distinguish the poor sod who was battered by his father and has no defense mechanism to deal with normal stressful situations and therefore everyone has to thread carefully when interacting with them?
And another level for the self contained dude who has a limitless tolerance to bull (the water of a ducks back chap),

maybe we can use the new 2d barcodes and our phones can tell us who is in a bad place.

This^ is not as crazy as trying to legislate bullying,

gozunda

Pottler wrote: »

I am really not being smart now, but I've never met one, Twice. I learned the hard way how to stand up for myself and now I don't tolerate any abuse in any way shape or form. Literally. I demand politeness from everyone I deal with and give the same in return. That is the best lesson to teach our kids -don't accept bullying or abuse. Simply refuse to. Call them out on it immediatly and demand a respectful interaction.

Teaching this is far more realistic than drafting some batty legislation. We have laws about not stabbing each other, but people still get stabbed.

Pottler - I admire your personal stance - you are quite obviously a very strong willed person but bullying behavior can often be an extreme form of violence. The issue of bullying as a form of assault is not only confined to children but to adults as well. It is not always possible to deflect or get rid of a bully. There are time when there needs to a proactive approach towards those that persistently bully others - as much as to protect those who are bullied but also to punish those that are the perpetrators

syklops

so basically what this wold be used for is arresting people for posting their opinions on a politicians facebook page.

One of the messages the late TD got on his facebook went along the lines of "I'll murder you. You deserve to be murdered for your comments". Thats a death threat. Even on boards I cant call call someone an idiot, so I don't understand why those kind of comments are ok'ed on public fora.


You can disagree with the government. There is nothing wrong with that, but comments like the above, which Shane McEntee was subjected to hundreds of, have no place in debate.

I received a good deal of bullying myself when i was a kid and what i learned over the years is that bullying comes down to 2 main factors - insecurity and ignorance. I used to think physical retribution was the answer but it is far from it. Fact is kids resort to this because of an insecurity they have and while i dont condone it i think money would be better served educating people before its too late rather then making criminals out of them. A bit like Racism or homophobia people need to be educated on the subject and made aware that what they are doing is not how a human being should treat another

hyperborean

mirekb wrote: »

At the age of 13 someone in my school decided to call me a name. It was very funny to call me that. Even more funny when their friends called me it too. Then even more funny when the kids in the older classes started too. Sounds like nothing right? But noone ever talked to me, they just hissed that name at me. Or sometimes shouted it. And pointed. And laughed. And kicked my chair, and took my lunch. The boys would touch my bum and chest, and hold me down and laugh. The girls would egg them on. I was in boarding school so it was day and night.

Now, I don't care anymore, I'm a grown up, there's no self pity here. BUT to tell my thirteen year old self to stand up for myself is laughable - and to tell my thirteen myself to stop crying and cop-on it's just 'someone calling me a name' is insulting.

Look man, that's **** and there were scores of guys like you in every school in every year but what do you want to happen?

Do you want everyone in that year to be brought before a judge for not wanting to be your friend? For being 13 year old (eejits for the most part)

Do you want their parents/teachers to be brought before a judge as they are their guardians and responsibility lies with them to educate?

Or should your parents/teachers be brought before a judge for not giving you the tools?

Think about this, this pandora's box is not for opening by the legislator...

hyperborean

hyperborean wrote: »

Laws wont change human nature, even education. Bullying especially in children will always be there, the best thing people can do is help themselves and show their own how to deal with situations they are not comfortable with. . .

The government is not a big brother to go crying to every time someone calls you a name!

They are a bully if anything

Dravokivich

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Or, we could just like, educate people?

Jaysus Dougal, where's your oversensationalisationsing?

goose_gladwell

Deleted User wrote: »

I received a good deal of bullying myself when i was a kid and what i learned over the years is that bullying comes down to 2 main factors - insecurity and ignorance. I used to think physical retribution was the answer but it is far from it. Fact is kids resort to this because of an insecurity they have and while i dont condone it i think money would be better served educating people before its too late rather then making criminals out of them. A bit like Racism or homophobia people need to be educated on the subject and made aware that what they are doing is not how a human being should treat another

many people bully because they like it , they get off on the power of dominating others

lack of education has nothing to do with it , its lack of decency

mirekb

hyperborean wrote: »

Look man, that's **** and there were scores of guys like you in every school in every year but what do you want to happen?

Do you want everyone in that year to be brought before a judge for not wanting to be your friend? For being 13 year old (eejits for the most part)

Do you want their parents/teachers to be brought before a judge as they are their guardians and responsibility lies with them to educate?

Or should your parents/teachers be brought before a judge for not giving you the tools?

Think about this, this pandora's box is not for opening by the legislator...

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

hyperborean

goose_gladwell wrote: »

lack of education has nothing to do with it , its lack of decency

How do we instill decency in children for one?

Does this mean that the bully is not the fault and the parent/teacher/society is to blame?

Who judges these groups and how will we legislate for judgement?

catallus

mirekb wrote: »

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

This is how i feel too. And it is part of what a community should be.

gozunda

hyperborean wrote: »

How do you legislate psychological assault when you cant even categorize it?
How far do we go?

Who says it cant be categorised?

hyperborean wrote: »

One thing may be psychological damaging to me but banal to another,

Same difficulities are faced in properly defining all offences tbh - it does not mean it cannot be done

hyperborean wrote: »

Do we provide everyone with a tolerance level for this law?Maybe a stamp or something to distinguish the poor sod who was battered by his father and has no defense mechanism to deal with normal stressful situations and therefore everyone has to thread carefully when interacting with them?
And another level for the self contained dude who has a limitless tolerance to bull (the water of a ducks back chap),

Do we decide that the person who is knifed must be judged on their upbrining to decide if a offence has been commited - of course not

I believe you are making the basic mistake of assigning the victim as the causer of their assault - this is not a valid reference point

If an individual suffers actual harm caused by bullying / pyschological assault- attested by medical or other means then there is an obvious case to answer

"Threading carefully" does not even exist in the same reality as the persistant behaviour of a bully

I dont get it why physical assault is rightfully outlawed but bullying / psycholoical assault is not

mirekb

catallus wrote: »

This is how i feel too. And it is part of what a community should be.

And is what should be fostered in the school environment from a very early age. Make them feel important by encouraging them to take responsibility for the good things that can happen, rather than giving them no responsibility and so they search for their own (which, as kids are savages, doesn't end well!)

hyperborean

mirekb wrote: »

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

Thats normal enough, almost everyone I know would do the same?

The OP stated

I believe it is time that bullying as an assault against the person is criminalised to enable those that are bullied to stop such behaviour but also that by making such activities illegal it will act as a deterent to others who would bully others

My points and replies are based solely on my opinion that this is dangerous and unworkable, I used your post to make this point?

DramaQuee

In a girls' school there can be vindictive, evil bullying. A child can be isolated, with disdainful looks, 'boxing out' with body language, gaslighting, words said under their breath. It is very difficult to actually describe, but any adult with half a brain and DESIRE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT will spot it. It is much worse than the type of bullying which boys do which you can point to bruises etc. If you are large, you can punch back if you're a boy and prove it when you've been hit, a girl's situation can be so frightening and invisible.

My daughter was bullied mercilessly in a convent, all girls school at age 7, 5 years ago. When I said what was happening, the teachers merely described the bullies as 'more mature, assertive girls'. They denied everything my daughter said. I was not allowed to watch during play time with the Head Teacher, when they downfaced my daughter saying she was NOT alone all break-times - which to this day, 5 years later she still says they lied about. It was a nightmare, they said it was not happening while my child wouldn't eat or sleep, and cried about things which happened and really nasty things that were done to her, her things being taken from her etc. I went in one week 3 times. The teacher in charge of bullying issues, the head mistress and the child's teacher would come into the room and try intimidate me. Luckily for me they were all about 5ft and I am 5'11, but I wore high heels too. They tried tactics like offering me a tiny child's seat to sit on while they had the big foam covered chairs. Naturally I refused and leaned against a filing cabinet, as I went through my diary of what was happening. Mind games all the way. As I am a divorced parent, they knew I had to do it all alone, and missing work would be difficult, they then called me in for 'meetings' a few times a week, where nothing at all was being done, but they were showing how uncomfortable they could make life for me if I kept asking them to meet me over particular incidents. They also said it probably something at home which was upsetting the child, not school at all!!! I had the quietest home imaginable.

After 3 months I had enough and moved my child to another school recommended by 2 good friends. One which was co-ed and a Gaelscoil this time. WHAT a difference, there was zero tolerance of bullying and my child has thrived from the first day - despite having to become fluent in Irish very quickly. The adults in the school can make a huge difference, they can condone bullying, turn a blind eye. It's easy to say a child is making a mountain out of a molehill, especially when the parents of the bully are on the Board of Management or Very Respectable etc. When this happens those responsible in loco parentis are responsible for the suffering of a lot of children, they are neglecting and harming the victim just as much as the bullies are. They are not doing what they are paid to do.

When I see the contrast now the management of any unfairness in this Gaelcolaiste (daughter is in second level now) compared to the convent, I cannot believe it. Here, the upset child is put first, nurtured and listened to. The bullies are firmly dealt with, so much so, they behave. A teacher said to me girls can be the worst and she knows to keep her foot on the pedal, if she didn't some children could easily lose the run of themselves. There has been one week of talks anti-bullying already, since September. Kids in this school are kind to each other, the 6 years are like older brothers and sisters to the 1st years, it is an excellent system and a small school.

If your child is being bullied, you might try teach them tools to deal with the situation, you may be afraid you're teaching your child to run away if you move them. But I would advise any parent to move their bullied child out of the environment IMMEDIATELY, sometimes it IS the best thing. Some people need a different group, better way of thinking to thrive. Listen to your child, listen to your gut, it is essential for your child to have correct emotional, social and mental development. It is the worst thing to feel stuck and there is no way out, and the child learns to be the one who isn't included, they feel there is 'something wrong' with them. You have to react quickly and get them out of that fast.

My daughter is so happy now, doing so well academically, socially far superior to the bitchy girls who were in the old school, who incidentally are hanging around town now at 13 years old in tarty clothes and heavy makeup. I'm so glad she didn't 'fit in' with these nasty pieces of work.

Pottler

mirekb wrote: »

Not at all, if you read my other posts I have said that I believe in societal responsibility for the question of bullying - not legislation, necessarily. So, if I see someone being bullied at work I will stand up for them and, more importantly, stand beside them. That is often enough to stop a bully, and far easier to go out to bat for someone else than for yourself as your own emotions are not engaged or open to manipulation.

Although, I'm not so clear on what should happen to teachers who allow bullying in the classroom. They have chosen a position of responsibility.. and the fact that we have children in our schools killing themselves says that something should be done

As a daily reality, I have a few employees, varies from time to time, usually somwhere around a dozen to about 20 depending. Within that fairly small group, bullying does emerge, it just does. But, It's an open door to come to me and state what is happening, and by god it stops there and then, immediatly.

It is, to me, totally unnacceptable, full stop and if there was a glimmer of a repeat, I'd fire the perpetrator and everyone knows that's my policy. It has seldom if ever needed more than a very firm, unambiguous laying down of the ground rules to nip it in the bud. So, I'm not unrealistic, I know some people need support and back-up, but I do not think it is somthing you can legislate for.

goose_gladwell

hyperborean wrote: »

How do we instill decency in children for one?

Does this mean that the bully is not the fault and the parent/teacher/society is to blame?

Who judges these groups and how will we legislate for judgement?

why are you asking about the bully

my only concern is the victim , i dont care what the bullys reasons are or motives , i can sympathise with someone stealing because they are poor but not antagonising others

hyperborean

gozunda wrote: »

Who says it cant be categorised?



Same difficulities are faced in properly defining all offences tbh - it does not mean it cannot be done



Do we decide that the person who is knifed must be judged on their upbrining to decide if a offence has been commited - of course not

I believe you are making the basic mistake of assigning the victim as the causer of their assault - this is not a valid reference point

If an individual suffers actual harm caused by bullying / pyschological assault- attested by medical or other means then there is an obvious case to answer

"Threading carefully" does not even exist in the same reality as the persistant behaviour of a bully

I dont get it why physical assault is rightfully outlawed but bullying / psycholoical assault is not

Sorry but I don't see your point in relation to my concerns?

How will bullying be legislated for?