Criminalise Bullying

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

I'm not a believer in 'good' and 'bad' as such - just in all the variants of nature. I believe some people are born with no empathy, and some people are born with loads and that most of us are in the middle somewhere.

So, the bully who bullies because of as outside factor like being bullied themself, insecurity, whatever is one thing but some just plain enjoy it and they're the ones to keep the fcuk away from!

I think they enjoy it because in a fúcked up way it humanises them. Fills that void which the vulnerability and insecurity has left in their lives .

kerry4sam

DramaQuee wrote: »

Regarding bullies, I remember the words of Al Capone:
You get more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone.

The real bullies use their 'guns', their lilly livered henchmen, sometimes their duplicitous charm in front of adults. End of the day they are 'getting something' and they are ruthless getting it, without conscience for those they crush and abuse.

Sure some bullies may change, or run off crying if they realise they hurt someone, you can be sure they were not as vicious as real die-hard rotten bullies. There is such a thing as a bad inclined person, who can do things the rest of us would never do, no matter what we endure. It simply is not in our nature.

We can all be good and bad, but I believe we all do not have the same capacity for badness. For example, I may have say, a capacity for 5 litres of badness, with vindictiveness thrown in. Another could have Lough Dan of evilness within with viciousness - completely different. It's the same with love, some people can humble you with their tenacity and capacity to continue a tough road and express love no matter what harshness they have traveled through.

It is this type of person I encountered. I know they have very high contacts and the one who initiated the bullying has a very close relationship with a senior member with the contacts. I am currently following protocols but not expecting anything considering the people involved and their contacts, but will be taking this to every door possible in the New Year to highlight this and bring to an end once and for all once I find out just how serious they take their protocols.

Bullying as per guidelines is not tolerated, so I am going to see just how useful their contacts are to them when I start banging on some doors if / when they use their contacts to wash over the fact I was bullied, abused and discriminated against in the workplace. It will be interesting to see just how serious employers take this behaviour in the workplace, if they take it serious at all. As I said though, the person who initiated the bullying has a very close relationship with a senior member who is covering her back and abused his own position in the process by tolerating this behaviour toward me to maintain their very close relationship. Devious and dishonest to say the very least!

Would legislation to criminalise bullying assist in this situation? Doubtful when people are willing and able to use their contacts to cover their asses.

DramaQuee

DramaQuee wrote: »

Regarding bullies, I remember the words of Al Capone:
You get more with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone.

The real bullies use their 'guns', their lilly livered henchmen, sometimes their duplicitous charm in front of adults. End of the day they are 'getting something' and they are ruthless getting it, without conscience for those they crush and abuse.

.

So just because your a victim, do you think it gives you a right to use fear and intimidation? Does two wrongs make a right? Do you think you could handle the sudden power you would get from threatening someone and yet you are suddenly vindicated to take this course of action by virtue of having being bullied?

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

I think they enjoy it because in a fúcked up way it humanises them. Fills that void which the vulnerability and insecurity has left in their lives .

I think so too. for some of them.

But I do think that some are just born like that. There's a kid up the road whose mum is a good friend of mine. Since he was tiny he was the type to pinch others when noone was looking and last year he was caught hitting a cat with a shovel. The scary part is there's no anger, or expression on his face most of the time. Totally flat eyes. But when he's hurting something he's smiling. I wouldn't let my son be alone with him and his mother is so worried she has had him in therapy since he was three. The therapist says he demonstrates no remorse at all. Just looks at her blankly and ignores her. He's only 7 and I'm sure there's a label for him but the label is just a fancy name for psychopath

leggo

gozunda wrote: »

Well done on bringing Bullying behavior out in the open however
like physical assault - bullying / physiological assault is always going to be with us

I wholeheartedly agree. While people believe that it may be an organised campaign perpetrated by an all-powerful bully, in truth I have found it to be more of a reaction; a reflex. Where others may choose to react to difficult circumstances by self-harming or worse, something within a bully's character causes them to lash out in this way.

What can change is that we learn how to identify when someone is doing it and how we handle it: not just the relevant authorities, but what you or I can do if we witness it in action. People will still try it, but if we have the right level of understanding and knowledge to react quickly, then it can also be stamped out quicker.

Many employers especially are the least likely to deal with bullying as it is of en easier for them to pretend that it does not happen. Current employment legislation does not allow the actual perpetrator to be reprimanded or prosecuted and instead places a near impossible onus on the victim to fight for their rights through a legal minefield

Agreed, and I think the key here is to remove the stigma of bullying. We need to look at it like racism or sexism is these days, i.e. when someone reports being bullied to an authority, it immediately gets taken seriously and is investigated. They aren't seen as weak, aren't told they should "suck it up", and definitely aren't shrugged off. Authorities also need to know what they can do about it and have very clear guidelines for how to act in such circumstances. Your boss in work should have done courses on bullying, they should have a handbook that tells them how to act effectively, and if they don't follow said guidelines, they should be considered in breach of employment law and the company punished appropriately.

Deleted User wrote: »

My belief is that bullies in most cases ARE NOT AWARE of the level of bullying they are inflicting on others and if anything they wouldnt even classify their behaviour as bullying if they gave a wholehearted honest opinion on the matter. They are in denial

This. You've hit the nail on the head, sir.

This is why the idea of severely punishing the bully doesn't sit well with me: the bully will see themselves as a victim, somehow, either directly (in my case it was a reaction to being bullied myself) or even in complex ways, like they will feel wronged by society (in cases of depression etc).

So to come down hard on them will only have the effect of compounding that misery, as I'll explain in a second. I understand why people, especially those who have been bullied, want justice and to see bullies punished...but if it doesn't work, then what purpose does it serve other than to satisfy people's vengeful thoughts?

Of course its an ongoing battle as youngsters or even adults will bring home problems into school/work and no one quite knows what goes on inside four walls so it has to be dealt with in the aftermath as opposed to prevention being better than cure.

This is another major point that a lot disregard. I have yet to encounter one person who admits to bullying that didn't suffer from some kind of unfortunate circumstances, be it they were picked on like me, problems at home etc. Their victims obviously see them in a different light: surely a person capable of making another this miserable couldn't suffer themselves? They are seen as all-powerful. This doesn't make that so.

So to treat these people as psychopaths who just 'enjoy' bullying people will only compound their feelings. Tell someone they're a psycho enough times and, eventually, they'll start to believe it and act accordingly. It's a vicious cycle.

Obviously, the bullying victims can't be expected to empathise with the bully (though this also works when possible; I've witnessed first-hand that being able to see their tormentor in a sympathetic light can empower them to a degree), so the responsibility rests with the rest of us in the middle and how we react: in supporting the victim, making those who need to know about the situation aware of it, and helping ensure the bully gets dealt with appropriately.

DramaQuee

Deleted User wrote: »

So just because your a victim, do you think it gives you a right to use fear and intimidation? Does two wrongs make a right? Do you think you could handle the sudden power you would get from threatening someone and yet you are suddenly vindicated to take this course of action by virtue of having being bullied?

Perhaps you misunderstood.

I will explain exactly what I meant.

Bullies think like Al Capone etc.

I think bullies need to be clamped down on. Perhaps due to the tardiness of the night and the fact English is not my first language, I mis-spell and use unusual juxtaposing of words? But you have totally misinterpreted the essence I wished to express.

mirekb

mirekb wrote: »

I think so too. for some of them.

But I do think that some are just born like that. There's a kid up the road whose mum is a good friend of mine. Since he was tiny he was the type to pinch others when noone was looking and last year he was caught hitting a cat with a shovel. The scary part is there's no anger, or expression on his face most of the time. Totally flat eyes. But when he's hurting something he's smiling. I wouldn't let my son be alone with him and his mother is so worried she has had him in therapy since he was three. The therapist says he demonstrates no remorse at all. Just looks at her blankly and ignores her. He's only 7 and I'm sure there's a label for him but the label is just a fancy name for psychopath

Even from a young age we can experience things that make us act in inhuman ways. Im an idealist but i honestly believe your friend could get to the bottom of his behaviour eventually. If she just gives up and believes he will grow up to be a dangerous person then he will be but she has to stay strong and get to the bottom of it.

DramaQuee

DramaQuee wrote: »

Perhaps you misunderstood.

I will explain exactly what I meant.

Bullies think like Al Capone etc.

I think bullies need to be clamped down on. Perhaps due to the tardiness of the night and the fact English is not my first language, I mis-spell and use unusual juxtaposing of words? But you have totally misinterpreted the essence I wished to express.

Fair enough its just the way you stated it and opened the post i get what you mean now apologies

DramaQuee

I hasten to add, tipp_Gunner I am not a victim, indeed I am extremely assertive. However I have seen bullying in a school in this country with an innocent child which would not be tolerated in any civilised country and I have met it head on.

Thankfully the Gaelscoil is able to deal effectively with bullying.

mirekb

Deleted User wrote: »

Even from a young age we can experience things that make us act in inhuman ways. Im an idealist but i honestly believe your friend could get to the bottom of his behaviour eventually. If she just gives up and believes he will grow up to be a dangerous person then he will be but she has to stay strong and get to the bottom of it.

We can agree to disagree

DramaQuee wrote: »

I hasten to add, tipp_Gunner I am not a victim, indeed I am extremely assertive. However I have seen bullying in a school in this country with an innocent child which would not be tolerated in any civilised country and I have met it head on.

Thankfully the Gaelscoil is able to deal effectively with bullying.

That was amazing the way you supported your child, and will be a great help for her getting over the long term effects of the bullying.

gozunda

kerry4sam wrote: »

It is this type of person I encountered. I know they have very high contacts and the one who initiated the bullying has a very close relationship with a senior member with the contacts. I am currently following protocols but not expecting anything considering the people involved and their contacts, but will be taking this to every door possible in the New Year to highlight this and bring to an end once and for all once I find out just how serious they take their protocols.

Bullying as per guidelines is not tolerated, so I am going to see just how useful their contacts are to them when I start banging on some doors if / when they use their contacts to wash over the fact I was bullied, abused and discriminated against in the workplace. It will be interesting to see just how serious employers take this behaviour in the workplace, if they take it serious at all. As I said though, the person who initiated the bullying has a very close relationship with a senior member who is covering her back and abused his own position in the process by tolerating this behaviour toward me to maintain their very close relationship. Devious and dishonest to say the very least!

Would legislation to criminalise bullying assist in this situation? Doubtful when people are willing and able to use their contacts to cover their asses.

Kerry4sam

Unfortunately in these type of circumstances voluntary guidelines are often thrown out of the window with the bath water

Employment law is very very poor in this regard. Many employers will do anything but aknowledge bullying as it is they and not the actual perpetrator who can be held liable. That said even where a finding is made against the perpetrator - the victim must then fight tooth and nail for any remedy to be advocated.

I honestly believe this is one area that requires proper legislation to make perpetrator legally culpable for bullying on a personal basis. At the moment the control of bullying in the workplace with guidelines only is simply a farce.

kerry4sam

gozunda wrote: »

Kerry4sam

Unfortunately in these type of circumstances voluntary guidelines are often thrown out of the window with the bath water

Employment law is very very poor in this regard. Many employers will do anything but aknowledge bullying as it is they and not the actual perpetrator who can be held liable. That said even where a finding is made against the perpetrator - the victim must then fight tooth and nail for any remedy to be advocated.

I honestly believe this is one area that requires proper legislation to make perpetrator legally culpable for bullying on a personal basis. At the moment the control of bullying in the workplace with guidelines only is simply a farce.

It is still going to be highlighted by me and I will be knocking on every door possible about this. Devious and deceitful behaviour should not go un-punished so I am be urged to go the distance with this one.

DramaQuee

kerry4sam , I know an employer and the very word 'bullying' from a member of staff made him break out in a cold sweat. He always took notes in his diary, had somebody into meetings as witness to ensure everything was recorded accurately.

Bosses, company owners, managers all take the very word 'Bullying' seriously. They in many cases presently cannot afford legal proceedings. Use that word; Bullying - keep a diary, keep regular meetings. You will see the bullying will go away. If not, you have an excellent paper trail.

Seeing what I have seen about the sheer stress of meeting this type of thing head on, I hate to say it, but I would recommend removing yourself from the environment. Not as defeat, not letting them win. But to remove yourself to a better, more nurturing experience and leave this toxicity behind.

I hope and pray this experience turns quickly to happiness for you.

gozunda

kerry4sam wrote: »

It is still going to be highlighted by me and I will be knocking on every door possible about this. Devious and deceitful behaviour should not go un-punished so I am going to go the distance with this one.

Do that - absolutely. I really fo hope you achieve success with this. From personal experience however I have seen horrendous practises being foisted on those that dared complain. I will admit This is one reason why I feel very strongly on providing redress and protection through legislation.

I believe that the momentum is out there now for change - I just hope it happens before more individuals find they have no redress or protection from such unscrupulous behaviour.

JRant

Sweet mother, the World really has gone arse about face.
The poor bully, the don't mean it, they're just misunderstood. What a load of non-sense.
Sure you can talk till the cows come home about the needs of the bully, what causes them to bully etc. but the only way to deal with them is a swift kick in the boll1x and exclusion from the school, workplace, club or wherever it may be. Let them get the help they need well away from their victims.

leggo

See, while I understand why you feel that way, think about what you're saying: you have a chance to change the bully and turn him into a productive student in school (in adults' cases I have less sympathy) and thereby end with a situation were you have two well-balanced students succeeding.

Your way you're basically sending a kid out on the streets at 13/14, without any education or sense, and leaving them ripe for a life of crime or the likes. That's not me being a bleeding heart liberal sympathising with the bully...that's me adopting some common sense and realising that expelling a student should be an absolute last resort.

Also go back to my own case: in that situation, I would've been expelled despite the same school letting me down when I was picked on myself. If I'd have been too afraid to report that I was bullied, and just become one immediately, would that have been fair? Basically, I'd have been expelled because I was too afraid to report bullying and didn't know what else to do. Ireland's education system would be an even bigger mess if that was how we handled things.

I also take umbrage with people saying that bullies "know what they're doing".

Em, no, 13-14 year old kids don't. How quickly people forget that when you're that age, ALL that matters is what people think of you (which is why the likes of Ask.fm are so popular, which baffles the rest of us).

Take it from someone who did it: all I thought I was doing was some harmless slagging. I took it from other people, and was well able for it, so I assumed that others could take it too. Teenagers are so concerned with their own problems that they don't even think about how their actions affect others. If you don't know this, then you've forgotten, because it's how it is. And I would've been a reasonably intelligent, introspective teen in spite of all of this, yet that's still how I felt.

Again, expelling children without trying to help and educate them is just destroying any chance they may have to be a productive member of society in later years. It's completely counter-intuitive and would only worsen the problem considerably.

expectationlost

the story is bs

goose_gladwell

mirekb wrote: »

I think so too. for some of them.

But I do think that some are just born like that. There's a kid up the road whose mum is a good friend of mine. Since he was tiny he was the type to pinch others when noone was looking and last year he was caught hitting a cat with a shovel. The scary part is there's no anger, or expression on his face most of the time. Totally flat eyes. But when he's hurting something he's smiling. I wouldn't let my son be alone with him and his mother is so worried she has had him in therapy since he was three. The therapist says he demonstrates no remorse at all. Just looks at her blankly and ignores her. He's only 7 and I'm sure there's a label for him but the label is just a fancy name for psychopath

i despair at a culture which pathologises a child from such a young age , sending someone to therapy is a judgement on them , feel sorry for the kid

too early to tell if their is anything serious wrong with him , hysteria

expectationlost

LMFM Podcasts - The Michael Reade Show

actually listen to the radio show with shane mcentee on 10th of december where is this beyond the pale abuse he gets? interview is at the start, readers texts at 29mins

shane mcentee lies when he says he was only using hotels as inflation price comparison the only reason you compare things to hotel rooms is to denote luxury suggesting that every carer in ireland using the respite payment for luxury, malicious bile and vitriol.

gozunda

The criminalisation of bullying would like all offences would be matched to the seriousness of the offence

Adults who bully individuals and cause actual harm should correctly face the possibility of legal sanction

In the cases of minors the normal age related diminutions and mitigations would apply

However at present we have cases of serious, persistent and vicious psychological abuse that have ended with the deaths of the victim thru suicide

The reason that bullying needs to be legislated for is exactly for the serious impacts that such psycholocal abuse can have on the victim.

Bullying can and does have devestating effects on the individual up to and including the victim feels they have little or no escape but to take their own lives

In the Bolger case minors were responsible for the death of the child and even though children themselves their actions were behaviour was judged serious enough to warrant trial

Obviously the Bolger case is an extreme example - however we are now seeing increasing number of suicides that appear to be directly linked to persisant and vicious bullying. Bullying that appear to have become normalised behaviour in adults and teenagers alike. Even where it is nominally made unacceptable - such behaviour appears at best to be treated as a nuisance only. Bullying and pyschological abuse needs to be prevented and acted against where it occurs

In the case of adults who are perpetrators of psychological abuse there can be little argument against criminalising such behaviour and treating it in a similar manner to physical assault.

At present there is no legal redress available to those that are are the victims of such behaviour and there are no deterents avaialable against those that would bully or what even that there are any reprocussions whatsoever

Those that are bullied and suffer harm from the activities of bullies - online or actual remain powerless to stop or initiate legal action against the perpetrator for the harm that has been inflicted upon them.
The end result is that many who are bullied feel they have no recourse to reporting and stopping such bullying and a proportion of these sadly go on to take their own lives.


I believe it is time that bullying as an assault against the person is criminalised to help those that are bullied to stop such behaviour but also that by making such activities illegal it will act as a deterent to others who would use bully others then the sanctions (although mitigated by age) where the seriousness of their behaviour, should be applied

JRant

leggo wrote: »

See, while I understand why you feel that way, think about what you're saying: you have a chance to change the bully and turn him into a productive student in school (in adults' cases I have less sympathy) and thereby end with a situation were you have two well-balanced students succeeding.

Your way you're basically sending a kid out on the streets at 13/14, without any education or sense, and leaving them ripe for a life of crime or the likes. That's not me being a bleeding heart liberal sympathising with the bully...that's me adopting some common sense and realising that expelling a student should be an absolute last resort.

Also go back to my own case: in that situation, I would've been expelled despite the same school letting me down when I was picked on myself. If I'd have been too afraid to report that I was bullied, and just become one immediately, would that have been fair? Basically, I'd have been expelled because I was too afraid to report bullying and didn't know what else to do. Ireland's education system would be an even bigger mess if that was how we handled things.

I also take umbrage with people saying that bullies "know what they're doing".

Em, no, 13-14 year old kids don't. How quickly people forget that when you're that age, ALL that matters is what people think of you (which is why the likes of Ask.fm are so popular, which baffles the rest of us).

Take it from someone who did it: all I thought I was doing was some harmless slagging. I took it from other people, and was well able for it, so I assumed that others could take it too. Teenagers are so concerned with their own problems that they don't even think about how their actions affect others. If you don't know this, then you've forgotten, because it's how it is. And I would've been a reasonably intelligent, introspective teen in spite of all of this, yet that's still how I felt.

Again, expelling children without trying to help and educate them is just destroying any chance they may have to be a productive member of society in later years. It's completely counter-intuitive and would only worsen the problem considerably.

I just can't agree with your bully-centric ideals. Adults and children need to know there will be serious reprecussions for their actions. Although it is slightly different in children then adults the premiss should be the same. If you bully then the only solution I see is the immediate removal of your person from the victims presence. Whether that means you lose your job or have to move schools then so be it.
It takes years to get over the abuse these people dish out and I don't see how a victim can move on if the culprit/s are let off and allowed to continue as normal.
Yes the bully needs help but they should get it a long way away from the victim with as much support being given to the victim as possible.

hyperborean

JRant wrote: »

I just can't agree with your bully-centric ideals. Adults and children need to know there will be serious reprecussions for their actions. Although it is slightly different in children then adults the premiss should be the same. If you bully then the only solution I see is the immediate removal of your person from the victims presence. Whether that means you lose your job or have to move schools then so be it.
It takes years to get over the abuse these people dish out and I don't see how a victim can move on if the culprit/s are let off and allowed to continue as normal.
Yes the bully needs help but they should get it a long way away from the victim with as much support being given to the victim as possible.

Who will make these judgments? What parameters will be used? Who pays?

JRant

hyperborean wrote: »

Who will make these judgments? What parameters will be used? Who pays?

The school or employer should be the first port of call.
I'm not going to define a bully for you, go do that yourself.
Who pays for what?

gozunda

hyperborean wrote: »

Who will make these judgments? What parameters will be used? Who pays?

As per all other offences - the structures already exist. Any actual legislation enacted would follow normal guidelines.

upstairs for coffee

Wouldn't it be as ineffective as making farting in public illegal?

How can you prove it?

lukesmom

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Wouldn't it be as ineffective as making farting in public illegal?

How can you prove it?

Now there you have it. I reckon we criminalise farting. T'is a travesty.

blacklilly

JRant wrote: »

I just can't agree with your bully-centric ideals. Adults and children need to know there will be serious reprecussions for their actions. Although it is slightly different in children then adults the premiss should be the same. If you bully then the only solution I see is the immediate removal of your person from the victims presence. Whether that means you lose your job or have to move schools then so be it.
It takes years to get over the abuse these people dish out and I don't see how a victim can move on if the culprit/s are let off and allowed to continue as normal.
Yes the bully needs help but they should get it a long way away from the victim with as much support being given to the victim as possible.

Totally agree, these children who bully know excatly what they are doing, it usually forms itself in group mentality. Please tell me how a child can not know he/she is doing wrong when another kid is crying hysterically, doesn't come to school due to the fear of being bullied, doesn't get involved in class/sport because they are afraid of the intimidatuion they will receive. As I mentioned previously, I was very badly bullied for years (boys in the class use to push me to the ground and kick me repeatedly in the stomach, girls would spit in my face, pull lumps of my hair, scratch me, shout at me, call me names, whicsper about me, write notes about me, exclude me from any activity, exclude me from birthday parties) the school were usless, even though my parents had many meetings with them,my parents even approached the bullies parents but to no avail. I was avery bright and active kid but I totally regressed in all aspects of life. I left primary school after the second week of term (6th class)because I couldn't take it any longer, I was a complete wreck, a 12 year old should not know what suicide is never mind be contemplating it.
I spent the rest of my 6th class year working in a local equestrain school and it literally saved my life, I was happy for the first time in 6 years.

I'm not saying that these bullies are "bad" people but they need to know that they cannot treat others like this, yes they may need help, or perhaps just a good talking to from their parents but unfortuantly at present the victim of bullying is left to pick up the pieces and to be honest my main concern would be to the person who is being bullied.

eblistic

Though the individual cases mentioned are tragic, we should be very wary of any campaigns which could, in effect, criminalise the causing of offence. Too many people will have very different opinions on what the threshold should be.

A certain thread of political ideology is fundamentally opposed to people having an anonymous voice to say anything at all. It takes away some of their ability to control free speech and they don't like that.

Wanderer2010

Bullies are cowards its as simple as that. Any bully I have met always backs down when you stand up to them, now some of them might get nastier in their own damaged way (talk more behind your back, sabotage etc) but the core issue is they cant take it when you stand up to them. Why do they pick people who are vulnerable or someone they perceive as weak? How many bullies would bully their own mates or people who are well able for them, not many for sure.

The problem lies in reporting any workplace/school bullying, its a very hard thing to prove so to that end, yes, legislation should be introduced to criminalise it.

goose_gladwell

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Bullies are cowards its as simple as that. Any bully I have met always backs down when you stand up to them, now some of them might get nastier in their own damaged way (talk more behind your back, sabotage etc) but the core issue is they cant take it when you stand up to them. Why do they pick people who are vulnerable or someone they perceive as weak? How many bullies would bully their own mates or people who are well able for them, not many for sure.

The problem lies in reporting any workplace/school bullying, its a very hard thing to prove so to that end, yes, legislation should be introduced to criminalise it.

its a cliche to think all cowards are bullies , some are , some are not, all are nasty however