Black economy/ fake goods/ dole cheats & reporting

Gerry T

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

I just pulled up at the petrol pump this evening and payed 43% tax to the government this evening. Most guys I know do nixers on the side every now and again and what not just to pay the bills, most of which comprise of a signifcant amount of tax

We all pay that tax unfortunatly - even the peolpe using buses, its in the fare. We have a small population so we all have to pay tax. When some don't the country still has the same running costs so the only way is to charge a higher tax % to those that are paying. So if more people evade paying tax then what you and I pay will increase. That hurts everyone and the one's that hurt the most are the poor and the unemployed that need the money.
Just googled this http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-260412-annual-report2011.html its a revenue document. In summary the revenue did 11,000 audits in 2010 which returned €520million in tax evasion, tahts only the tip of the iceberg in my opinion. If all the evaders and dodgers payed their due then we would see a budget next month where we would pay less Tax. And I'm not just talking of the poor people that dodge, its them all - rich, middle class - the whole lot.

stevenmu

joydivision wrote: »

Again this takes us back to divide and conquer . The government screw everyone . And they have you blame the pittance some unfortunate is trying to feed his family with .

The government don't screw everyone, they're elected by us, they work for us, if you don't like it elect a different one.

The sad fact is that we screw each other. Welfare cheats are screwing me by taking my tax money. Worse than that they are screwing over people who genuinely deserve the welfare money and can't get it any other way, they're screwing over the special needs kids who won't have dedicated teachers, they're screwing over the single mothers who need to feed their kids, the old people who need to heat their homes in the winter, they're screwing the people who need hospital beds to be open. In short they're screwing over the decent people who genuinely need to be helped.

There's only a limited pot to go around. Every euro that gets cheated out of the system is a euro that can no longer go to help someone more deserving.

loggedoff wrote: »

Your reading of the situation the Irish economy finds itself in is completely at odds with what's actually happening.
Even if people are doing a bit on the side, that money most lightly gets put directly back into the economy.

No, it's completely in line with the economy, which you clearly do not understand. The single biggest problem with our economy right now is the budget deficit. The government is spending more money on services than it can take in in taxes. This means it needs to either cut services, raise taxes, or both. That is why we have had a number of tough budgets, and that is why we will have another one next week. And that in turn is what is causing many of the other problems in the economy.

Welfare cheats are not the only cause of the deficit, but instead of helping the situation by declaring their income and contributing to the system, they are making the situation worse by taking money out of the system that they are not entitled to.

B.A._Baracus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Don't tar everybody with the same low opinion. It is worse than saying everybody on the dole is scamming. You are saying everybody would. I am telling you you are wrong and therefore wrong calling people hypocrites.

My point is that when it comes down to it ... people often do the opposite of what they say they would. Especially when it comes to their own 'gain' ... Take this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5qRs2dBoK0

All that for a bunch of phones. My point is "when it comes down to it" - fair enough if you still want to disagree.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The childish view on 'ratting' is also a ridiculous. People seem to not realise whistle blowers are required to catch people in high positions too. So if they adopt the same attitude you allow it to continue.

Sadly, all to often people only report out of venomous reasons. Usually out of dislikement or even hatred.

loggedoff

stevenmu wrote: »

The government don't screw everyone, they're elected by us, they work for us, if you don't like it elect a different one.

The sad fact is that we screw each other. Welfare cheats are screwing me by taking my tax money. Worse than that they are screwing over people who genuinely deserve the welfare money and can't get it any other way, they're screwing over the special needs kids who won't have dedicated teachers, they're screwing over the single mothers who need to feed their kids, the old people who need to heat their homes in the winter, they're screwing the people who need hospital beds to be open. In short they're screwing over the decent people who genuinely need to be helped.

There's only a limited pot to go around. Every euro that gets cheated out of the system is a euro that can no longer go to help someone more deserving.



No, it's completely in line with the economy, which you clearly do not understand. The single biggest problem with our economy right now is the budget deficit. The government is spending more money on services than it can take in in taxes. This means it needs to either cut services, raise taxes, or both. That is why we have had a number of tough budgets, and that is why we will have another one next week. And that in turn is what is causing many of the other problems in the economy.

Welfare cheats are not the only cause of the deficit, but instead of helping the situation by declaring their income and contributing to the system, they are making the situation worse by taking money out of the system that they are not entitled to.

Unfortunately, for some people, to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads it's the only way possible.
It wasn't people on the dole who screwed over this country and a lot of people are hanging on by their finger tips.
As well as that they can only be guided by the actions of the politicians and the 'elite' in this country, and to be honest now, these people haven't really been great role models, have they?

Ray Palmer

joydivision wrote: »

gerry im sure these friends of yours use loopholes to bend the system way more than the woman making 30 quid from cakes .
Did you ever go over their accounts with them ?

Where did the €30 come from? They work 3 days for this.

Gerry T

loggedoff wrote: »

Unfortunately, for some people, to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads it's the only way possible.
It wasn't people on the dole who screwed over this country and a lot of people are hanging on by their finger tips.
As well as that they can only be guided by the actions of the politicians and the 'elite' in this country, and to be honest now, these people haven't really been great role models, have they?

This is a good point. We probably have the worst child care system in Europe; most other countries have free schools, free books, and free medical and free dental for children. So remove the black market and then we may be able to do the same. Then the people that are scraping by can save the money they spend on these services and spend it on food, clothes and utility bills. I wouldn't mind and I don't think anyone does mind if someone that is genuinely out of work and finding it hard to make ends meet doing the odd job to help keep it together, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Once it wasn't for an IPAD, Concert tickets, a car or designer clothes. The big question is Dole Cheats, people that say they are unemployed or living alone and take what they can from the state (YOU) and also have a job. Some threads here that advocate this seem to think it’s a "them" and "us" situation. It’s not - "them" being the govt is actually YOU, when people realise this they may become more intolerant of the scammers. I'm not saying someone genuinely out of work and doing the odd job for cash is wrong, there has to be some level of understanding.

StudentDad

Ray Palmer wrote: »

So the answer is no. Wonder how you could stop that? I mean say if we make those around us accountable. Might not be instant effect but if people grow up knowing it is not acceptable. Going around calling people rats is more likely to stop people from stopping the higher ups and peers.

So due process, innocence until proven guilty, rule of law should be turfed out and we'll run with informers, back stabbing and mob rule?

I think Franco and others ran their countries like that. Didn't turn out too well for the populace.

Great idea

SD

GullibleOne

stevenmu wrote: »

The government don't screw everyone, they're elected by us, they work for us, if you don't like it elect a different one.

The sad fact is that we screw each other. Welfare cheats are screwing me by taking my tax money. Worse than that they are screwing over people who genuinely deserve the welfare money and can't get it any other way, they're screwing over the special needs kids who won't have dedicated teachers, they're screwing over the single mothers who need to feed their kids, the old people who need to heat their homes in the winter, they're screwing the people who need hospital beds to be open. In short they're screwing over the decent people who genuinely need to be helped.

There's only a limited pot to go around. Every euro that gets cheated out of the system is a euro that can no longer go to help someone more deserving.



No, it's completely in line with the economy, which you clearly do not understand. The single biggest problem with our economy right now is the budget deficit. The government is spending more money on services than it can take in in taxes. This means it needs to either cut services, raise taxes, or both. That is why we have had a number of tough budgets, and that is why we will have another one next week. And that in turn is what is causing many of the other problems in the economy.

Welfare cheats are not the only cause of the deficit, but instead of helping the situation by declaring their income and contributing to the system, they are making the situation worse by taking money out of the system that they are not entitled to.

and who are you screwing? you explain it all except that

loggedoff

Gerry T wrote: »

This is a good point. We probably have the worst child care system in Europe; most other countries have free schools, free books, and free medical and free dental for children. So remove the black market and then we may be able to do the same. Then the people that are scraping by can save the money they spend on these services and spend it on food, clothes and utility bills. I wouldn't mind and I don't think anyone does mind if someone that is genuinely out of work and finding it hard to make ends meet doing the odd job to help keep it together, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Once it wasn't for an IPAD, Concert tickets, a car or designer clothes. The big question is Dole Cheats, people that say they are unemployed or living alone and take what they can from the state (YOU) and also have a job. Some threads here that advocate this seem to think it’s a "them" and "us" situation. It’s not - "them" being the govt is actually YOU, when people realise this they may become more intolerant of the scammers. I'm not saying someone genuinely out of work and doing the odd job for cash is wrong, there has to be some level of understanding.

How much did 'dole fraud' cost the economy last year?

pebbles21

A guy I worked with was living in a council house in Tallaght,the lady next door to him had died,and her young niece who had a baby daughter moved in,paid the rent,told no one and kept herself to herself and bothered nobody

My work colleague took offence to this and reported her to the council and she eventually had to leave the house and find a bedsit to live in

Oh how I laughed when his new neighbours moved in a few weeks later,with their caravan,Transit van and pony trap in the garden

flutered

loggedoff wrote: »

Unfortunately, for some people, to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads it's the only way possible.
It wasn't people on the dole who screwed over this country and a lot of people are hanging on by their finger tips.
As well as that they can only be guided by the actions of the politicians and the 'elite' in this country, and to be honest now, these people haven't really been great role models, have they?

i like the bit that they can only be guided by the actions of politicians, the same people who gave themselves a raise in both wages and expenses for next year, this was done on the day that they gave themselves a break for halloween,
now imagne a household who have had their fone disconnected, now they are on their last chance with the lecky, one of them gets a chance to earn 30 merkels, this will take a little pressure of the lecky bill, what do they do, take the 30, or say look the country is going bad, i cannot take the 30 as it is against the law. i must help my country.

StudentDad

pebbles21 wrote: »

A guy I worked with was living in a council house in Tallaght,the lady next door to him had died,and her young niece who had a baby daughter moved in,paid the rent,told no one and kept herself to herself and bothered nobody

My work colleague took offence to this and reported her to the council and she eventually had to leave the house and find a bedsit to live in

Oh how I laughed when his new neighbours moved in a few weeks later,with their caravan,Transit van and pony trap in the garden

Karma is a wonderful thing

SD

Ray Palmer

StudentDad wrote: »

So due process, innocence until proven guilty, rule of law should be turfed out and we'll run with informers, back stabbing and mob rule?

I think Franco and others ran their countries like that. Didn't turn out too well for the populace.

Great idea

SD

What the hell are you talking about? Due process isn't removed. Reporting somebody doesn't mean you are believed they still investigate.

You just made up your own story with no connection to what I said.

mirekb

Michael Weston wrote: »

Before you edited it to suit your needs the poster said single mothers living with partners and not declaring it is wrong.

Sorry if this has been said before on this thread but this absolutely infuriates me. These people are not single mothers, theyare people in relationships pretending to be lone parents.

Reloc8

loggedoff wrote: »

How much did 'dole fraud' cost the economy last year?

Impossible to quantify. There might be a quite notional figure available for person's who claim the dole when they have income which would preclude them calculated on the basis of % of people detected for doing this versus % of people on the dole.

However a figure based on % detected can't be said to be accurate to assess undetected behaviour.

There's a further consequence which is impossible to assess in respect of income earned by them undeclared and hence untaxed because inherently that income is never declared - or they couldn't claim the dole.

So the cost is actually on the double - dole paid out, and income untaxed which is potentially liable to tax.

Just to make clear - as far as I'm concerned, where basic needs are concerned for yourself and your family you do what you have to do to put a roof over heads, feed people, clothe them, etc. and if that's what's engaged, then no one is entitled to make a moral judgment against you.

I'm just very unconvinced that undeclared money on the black economy is universally disposed in that way as opposed to just making one's position generally more comfortable. Which, when it comes to benefits & entitlements from the State, is wrong. It doesn't just screw 'the taxpayer', it screws people who are genuinely in need of those funds, whose allowances are cut to reflect the fact that the State can't afford to pay out on all of the various claims, genuine and otherwise, that are made.

Ray Palmer

StudentDad wrote: »

Karma is a wonderful thing

SD

Look up Karma because that isn't it.

StudentDad

Ray Palmer wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? Due process isn't removed. Reporting somebody doesn't mean you are believed they still investigate.

You just made up your own story with no connection to what I said.

You seem to be obsessed with everybodys business. If a citizen is working a nixer etc etc it isn't your business. The whole idea of 'informing' on another citizen is repugnant. I'm never going to advocate a 'valley of squinting windows' mentality.

Like I said before, if you want to deal with the financial crisis, close the loopholes in the tax law etc and sort the banking and business sector. Not to mention exorbitant pay in the public sector.

Hammering poor people isn't the answer.

SD

Reloc8

keithclancy wrote: »

And how do you know that mary didn't make the buns in her cockroach invested kitchen while she had cats walking all over the place ?

You don't.

Just be sure and check them for cockroaches and you know have a good smell of the buns before you buy.

Or hey don't buy the buns, live long and prosper.

Ray Palmer

StudentDad wrote: »

You seem to be obsessed with everybodys business. If a citizen is working a nixer etc etc it isn't your business. The whole idea of 'informing' on another citizen is repugnant. I'm never going to advocate a 'valley of squinting windows' mentality.

Like I said before, if you want to deal with the financial crisis, close the loopholes in the tax law etc and sort the banking and business sector. Not to mention exorbitant pay in the public sector.

Hammering poor people isn't the answer.

SD

So to be clear nothing you said related to what I said.
A banker is a citizen so you don't want anybody to report them?
Your defence has been you can't hold anybody responsible as politicians, banker, developers have done it.
I am concerned how my state spends its money. Cheat it and I know I'll report you. It doesn't take any sneaking around or spying.
As I said I reported a bank and a plumber. The plumber had two people working for him and all 3 claiming the dole. He was also trying to cheat my mother who is in her 70s. Sorry if you see this guy as some poor soul struggling to get by.

Name a tax loophole because I'd guess it is just your perception.

The public servants don't generally get paid that much. Remove the government and you don't see massive wages.

You sound quite clueless

StudentDad

Ray Palmer wrote: »

So to be clear nothing you said related to what I said.
A banker is a citizen so you don't want anybody to report them?
Your defence has been you can't hold anybody responsible as politicians, banker, developers have done it.
I am concerned how my state spends its money. Cheat it and I know I'll report you. It doesn't take any sneaking around or spying.
As I said I reported a bank and a plumber. The plumber had two people working for him and all 3 claiming the dole. He was also trying to cheat my mother who is in her 70s. Sorry if you see this guy as some poor soul struggling to get by.

Name a tax loophole because I'd guess it is just your perception.

The public servants don't generally get paid that much. Remove the government and you don't see massive wages.

You sound quite clueless

I'm sure you feel vindicated by your actions. If you feel comfortable behaving like some sort of informer for the State good luck with that. If you feel it's fine to inform on a fellow citizen in matters that do not concern you, that's your choice. Good luck with that.

SD

keithclancy

Reloc8 wrote: »

You don't.

Just be sure and check them for cockroaches and you know have a good smell of the buns before you buy.

Or hey don't buy the buns, live long and prosper.

I don't think you can smell fanny dandruff

Ray Palmer

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm sure you feel vindicated by your actions. If you feel comfortable behaving like some sort of informer for the State good luck with that. If you feel it's fine to inform on a fellow citizen in matters that do not concern you, that's your choice. Good luck with that.

SD

The same vindication you have for protecting people scamming. These matters do concern me.

Nice to see when pushed you can't answer questions.

Would you report a landlord if he didn't pay taxes? If he held on to your deposit as well?

B.A._Baracus

Geez, RayPalmer, you have a hard on for this thread don't you :pac:

StudentDad

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The same vindication you have for protecting people scamming. These matters do concern me.

Nice to see when pushed you can't answer questions.

Would you report a landlord if he didn't pay taxes? If he held on to your deposit as well?

The deposit a separate issue, his taxes are between himself and revenue.

Get a grip

SD

Ray Palmer

StudentDad wrote: »

The deposit a separate issue, his taxes are between himself and revenue.

Get a grip

SD

You should pop over to the accommodation forum and see how people feel. Like you no problem with scamming but quick to report landlords.

donalg1

Like others have said its the system thats broken, make it so people cant cheat that way there is no issue. I wouldnt report anyone though as they know the consequences of getting caught and if they do get caught well they can face those consequences far be it from me to tell on them.

StudentDad

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You should pop over to the accommodation forum and see how people feel. Like you no problem with scamming but quick to report landlords.

You don't seem to get the fact that a matter between me and a landlord concerning a deposit has nothing to do with his taxes. Do you really think said landlord is going to let me see his books? Lol

SD

loggedoff

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The public servants don't generally get paid that much. Remove the government and you don't see massive wages.

You sound quite clueless

County managers on €180k, Dublin city librarian on over €120k.
It goes on and on, the PS is full of overpaid people and as well as that they're still getting pay rises.
Clueless?

GullibleOne

loggedoff wrote: »

County managers on €180k, Dublin city librarian on over €120k.
It goes on and on, the PS is full of overpaid people and as well as that they're still getting pay rises.
Clueless?

PS is full of overpaid inadequate people

kippy

loggedoff wrote: »

County managers on €180k, Dublin city librarian on over €120k.
It goes on and on, the PS is full of overpaid people and as well as that they're still getting pay rises.
Clueless?

1. There are a lot of people in civil/public live earning over 100K per annum. To be fair that needs to be reduced. However they are paying every penny of PAYE,PRSI,USC,Pension deductions liable on it.
2. There are only a certain portion of the public/civil service receiving pay rises(those that are due to receive one under their contract of employment and those that are not at the top of their salary scale.


While this country needs to see people taken to account for their actions, particularly people in power and in decision making positions, the whole "cute hoor" thing starts from the ground up. We let if off in the black economy so we let it off at the top levels of society.